Interview with Garry Ingraham

EMG radio for today's culture and timeless truths come together it's reasoned relevant content apologetics worldview and answers to the questions that you need to know from Alex McFarlane ministries. This is true for a new generation radio and now the man who preached in 50 states and 50 days speaker, writer, and advocate for Christian apologetics Dr. Alex McFarlane, certainly one of the most well-publicized issues in the media in recent years, and frankly, one of the volatile issues that the church has grappled with in recent decades is the issue of human sexuality and the Houston Chronicle recently reported that there are 700 cases of sexual abuse that have been reported within the southern Baptist church in recent years, some of them going back to decades, but only just now being reported and so the church of Jesus Christ the body of Christ, that is to preach the gospel to every nation, we are to live the gospel and invest our lives here on this earth. In Christ's great commission making disciples of every nation.

That's Matthew 2818 through 20. But I believe in this generation. One of the issues that the body of Christ must speak to and speak to effectively in one of the issues that we've got to familiarize ourselves with and and be an area of ministry is the area of of human sexuality and sexual sin, we could face sexual brokenness, and of course there is the issue of homosexuality. That is been front page news for number of years and I've got the privilege as you hear this I'm recording from a conference in Minneapolis Minnesota. The hope 2019 conference. Our colleague and friend and Park has a ministry resort hope network and and I as you may know, we go back to the Focus on the Family days. We worked together for James Dobson and I'm here with one of her colleagues, Gary Ingram, Gary, in what way is the work that you do connected with the resort hope network in the really ministry about the issue of homosexuality will after being a pastor for 12 years at a large church in upstate New York. I found it a ministry called love and Truth Network, which focuses on equipping pastors the church on how to develop environments in their churches and in our Christian organizations that are both safe but also transformational in all of these areas of sexual brokenness and so that ministry is a member ministry resort hope network and that I also on a part-time basis lead another organization called transforming congregations which is nearly identical to 11 Truth Network. But it's focus within the United Methodist Church and that's also a member ministry of restorative network and if you know much about United Methodist Church. These issues have been front and center topics of just a lot of division and difficulty within the church around human sexuality and LGBT Q issues and you know I think for a lot of people. Maybe a lot of laypeople and certainly some pastors that I know and definitely many academics that I know there is the assumption that the issue of homosexuality is settled. I may look as one person said to me, you know, just lay off.

I mean look this this issue is already been decided we know what the church in the Bible might've said for hundreds of years, but it's a new day. It's a new day and so were just not in the view that is the sin anymore. Give me your response to that line of thinking that somehow truth is changed and sin has been declassified. Gary what he said is that what I would say first of all there's been a lot of time and a lot of money thrown at trying to prove that homosexuality is immutable that it's genetic that he has never been proven. Also, even a lesbian researcher by the name of Lisa diamond as it has really got a great deal of extensive research that shows that there's a great deal of sexual fluidity of people moving actually in an out of homosexuality or even transgender is him so that idea that is scientifically proven is completely false and also what I would say is a man who comes out of homosexuality and is had hundreds and hundreds of conversations with people who have also been on a journey out of homosexuality.

Both men and women. My wife and I we've had these conversations what what I would say for myself and for so many of them have expressed the same thing. Please don't lower the bar for us. You know we we need to be called to repentance like everybody else is called to repentance. And when we're sold a gospel that does not include repentance were not being told the true gospel were buying into a false gospel and there are many Christian leaders who are doing this and I and I actually believe it is out of the best of intentions, but you're actually misleading us and I and and selling us a bill of goods is not actually truth. I'm so glad to hear you say that because you know think about him and if we give people a message that might, for the moment seem comforting but is going to contribute to their lostness.

You have friends don't let friends go to hell.

I mean if I love my neighbor.

I'm going to do it. My utmost to try to prevent them from missing salvation speak to a church that tries to sanitize the gospel for the 21st-century. What are we doing if we do that well there couple things that what I think of when you asked that question are churches that a number of a decade ago or maybe two decades ago really started to pick up on this idea of being a seeker sensitive churches and end in and of itself. I get that and I think that if you do that carefully. That can be done well and it's what it's not only well-meaning but it's effective.

I think many churches have embraced that idea being seeker sensitive and what it what want what we are doing is actually were kind of presenting a bait and switch. In a sense like we are representing something that's it's not truly authentic were trying to make people feel as comfortable as they possibly can. Coming in, but the truth is most of the time churches are not ever switching the message. I mean, they're not not inviting people in and then asking them or inviting them to really come to know Jesus and surrender their lives. That rather the. The whole message of the gospel gets watered down that the discipleship process tends to get water down and over time. What I've seen is churches who who want to embrace.

Whether it's the LGBT community or just embrace the community around them. In general in in in a hyper seeker sensitive way. The community is not living for the church. The church winds up moving toward the community and over time the inauthentic message is lost and it becomes more than simply a gathering place, then a place where transformation actually happens in people's lives at this and true discipleship happens state and when we come back will pursue more of this topic on today's edition of truth for a new generation radio from I am a watchman ministries. Here's today's I am a watchman minute. Have you ever wondered what happened to the 12 disciples of Jesus, Judas killed himself after betraying Christ, but the others remained brave and faithful and died as martyrs. Thomas was tormented with red-hot plates but would not deny his Lord Nathaniel had his skin flayed but would not recant his faith.

Did you know the word martyr and witness have a common root word in the Greek language the language of the New Testament from a biblical perspective, a witness must be willing to die to self and if necessary die for Christ.

Scripture directs believers to be bold and courageous. The disciples were are you. Courage is contagious joining the I am a watchman family believers will help you stand strong in these last days. People will be faithful, be a watchman, I am a watchman.com first Peter 315 tells us to be ready always to give an answer for the hope we have were instructed to be prepared to defend our faith. This is Alex McFarlane for the life answers teams students we train at North Greenville University, a leading Christian college in South Carolina. The life answers.

Teams are made up of students who will inspire and equip your congregation. These apologetics teams. We train speaking churches to the youth groups and train Christians of all ages to address key issues of our times. From a biblical perspective like is there a God is the Bible true. What about gender and moral issues. Call me at 864977 2008 and we will arrange for the life answers team to come to your church and give a presentation that will benefit your people for years to come. 864-977-2000 eight and always be ready. You know, Romans 116 says for. I'm not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God to bring salvation to everyone who believes.

That's what your kids need before they go to college.

That's the theme for the 2019 TNG Christian apologetics youth camp July 29 through August 2 at Camp kale North Carolina speakers include of course Alex McFarlane along with Daniel Ritchie, Andy Lawrenson and Vicki Addison exciting worship every night, and rocksolid teaching every day. And yes, it's a summer camp with all the summer camp activities. Your kids would expect the TNG Christian apologetics youth camp July 29 through August 2 at Camp kale to learn more and to register, call 800.

Yes, God, one 800 yes God in the number one or email info and truth for a new generation.com in the midst of a culture obsessed with relativism. Alex McFarlane is a voice you can trust to speak the timeless truths of Christianity in a timely way. You're listening to the truth for a new generation radio walk affect TNG radio Alex McFarlane here at the house 2019 conference my guest. Gary Ingram is a board member did it do this every year and if so where shall we do this every year the whole conference with restore health network.

It's our seventh one this year and we actually move it around the country trying to make it as accessible for various people in various parts of the country as we can in the first segment you alluded to that you and your wife both came out of the homosexual lifestyle.

What circumstances are brought you to the point of of changing direction will I just went through a season early on in my life and just being so fed up with the church.

Having grown up in the church angry with God because he wasn't showing up and doing what I felt he needed you to kind of fix things I didn't have any understanding growing up about what I was experiencing or where some of the root causes were coming from.

The reality is in it it to say in the simplest form were broken in relationship and were made whole relationship and so often we are broken the relationship. We want God is to sort of pull out his magic wand and who Fino take it away and that's how he works. He works through his church to repair and restore what is been broken hat.

How did your wife come out and and how did you and she meet, so my wife Melissa was involved in a number of sexual relationships that she had three I think long-term relationships with young men growing up she had a real gap in her life with. With regard to her own father and a divorce and just a lot of emptiness in relationship to him and she was looking for a lot of that in these other relationships and then later on in college. She was simply asked by a friend of hers.

As she was actually engaged to be married to a man and the closer she was getting this wedding the more miserable she was feeling and she is doing great in school and everything was going for her, but she was just becoming more more depressed, and this friend said will have you ever thought about dating so-and-so and so-and-so was. It was a girl. They both knew and it just if she had never thought of that before, never had entertained. It never was drawn that way and it just opened up a door and they went to a gay bar. One thing led to another and she one up striking up a relationship with this woman and for my wife Melissa when she out of this relationship she felt like it was such a powerful feeling. It felt like this is what I've been looking for my whole life and that it wasn't that many months after they started dating that that this one broke up with her and all. Melissa describes it as all the weight of all of those broken relationships with men, and everything really just came crashing down on her in her identical twin sister is never at struggle with lesbianism. Her identical twin sister and come to know the Lord a couple of years before and invited my wife to in Urbana conference and it was at that conference. That and Melissa said yes it was at that conference that she came to know Jesus. It's notable that you said her identical twin sister who is not a lesbian elaborate on that if you why that is a significant point. Sure so I say that simply because we know that there are number twin studies that have been done and and twin studies have been part of the research that's been done to try to prove that homosexuality is somehow immutable, genetically and actually twin studies show the opposite.

It shows that while there is a larger percentage of the population where one sibling will identify as gay when the other one does a larger percent than the average population.

Eight. Still, the numbers are so low that if it was inborn in any way shape or form. It should be way up in the upper 90%, not 100% of the time and so what that really indicates to me as I look at that is, there is far more going on in terms of environmental factors like both siblings are experiencing the same dynamics at the same age. At the same developmental age as the other and and so therefore I think there is. It tips the scales in in them experiencing and then relating to those things in a similar fashion, which would which would explain the higher percentage than the average population, but it's nowhere near what it should be to actually show a correlation to something genetic. Gary I think you and I both would agree that people that experience same-sex attraction and then embrace that lifestyle probably or lead that way as a response to pain and and none of us want to suffer none of us want to be in pain, and when we think we have an option for a better day. You know that's human nature to try to go there but the deeper people get into this does does the gay lifestyle heal the pain does the gay lifestyle fill the void in our soul that that some people feel what I would say in the short-term part of that the power of it is in the short term, it feels like it does and and so therefore it can, and that's part of that the nature of the draw toward it, but no ultimately I think you're actually right. It is oftentimes a response to pain my wife and I really believe that when you look at attachment theory and and that that that kind of explains a lot.

Attachment is a huge issue for what develops. In someone's life. In terms of same-sex attraction and other areas of brokenness to so but ultimately when Paul says in first Corinthian 618 that every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, or woman, but the one who sins sexually sins against their own body. I began to feel that when I actually after I came out and and it felt euphoric for a couple of years, leaving Bible college and saying God I hate you and I'm just done with this and and then after living in this for a couple of years I really began to experience really the decay of my soul. I began to experience this internal rottenness and this internal decay and it was it was that that began to show me that this is not what I signed up for.

This is not, and I thought it would be. It's anything but gay and any yet there is a power that held onto me a couple of things. One is I believe that if I gave this up that I was going to grow old to be alone for the rest of my life which obviously is a total joke. I have two young boys I married I travel around for ministry.

I have a number of amazing relationships and so Satan wanted me to believe that line stay in that life, and then the second lie that I believed also was that this generalized if they only knew you they would want to have nothing to do with you it with regard to the to the church again. I had that a lot of that was true for me growing up, but there is a church that's called the church and then there's the church that the authentic church and and God brought me to a church.

It was authentic. It was really the man in that church that I didn't know exactly what to do with me by a longshot. Frankly, they knew their own depravity.

They knew their own tendency toward sexual sin and they put their arms around me and welcomed me into their men's group and and said you belong with us and and we want you here. Why never heard those words in a community of men outside of the LGBT community my whole life, even though I grew up in the church so those were very powerful experiences.

So, ultimately, no I don't believe that homosexuality, for those that got her, is calling out of that place into his kingdom. It does not satisfy, and it is a pathway that leads toward death as any other sin does. Hey this is TNG radio Alex McFarlane here were talking with Gary Ingram and stay tuned because when we returned. Logan asked some questions if your parent and your child has come out how you react if you're Christian and somebody you care about is is struggling with same-sex attraction, or maybe even if you yourself are asking you know can I trust that there is a God that loves me and will receive me and forgive me, take me as I am dear, I believe that God has a plan for me Satan you don't want to miss this next segment on TNG radio. If you're Christian parent. You of course want to instill a biblical view of life in the hearts of your children, your pastor, you want to offer ministry that draws young families to your church. This is Alex McFarlane encouraging you to check out my new book and video curriculum.

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We resume our conversation with Gary Ingram. I do want to remind you we have two big conferences coming up one in Richmond, Virginia, one in Cincinnati Ohio in October were going to be in Richmond Virginia with people like Todd Starnes and so many of the great speakers you come to know and love. Abe Hamilton from the American family Association. Great music, great content of a life-changing weekend that's going to be October 11 and 12, Richmond, Virginia, and then in November. This is a great way to wrap up the year right before Thanksgiving.

November 15 16 will be in Cincinnati, Ohio great speakers, people like Josh McDowell and so many others to talk about God. How do I defend that God exist in the Bible can I defend that the Bible is true and trustworthy, and then moral issues. One of our speakers is Ryan Bamberger of the Radiance foundation.

Probably the most powerful pro-life speaker you'll ever hear. Look, it's for all ages and young people you need to be equipped to stand strong for your faith.

Often times school and the academic environment.

The campus are shark infested waters and if you don't know your stuff. You good and really have a struggle standing strong. Being a witness for Christ. Moms and dads, leaders, pastors, you don't want to miss truth for new generation as we get equipped and we rise to the challenge of first Peter 315 and we are ready to give an answer. You can find complete information at our website truth for a new generation.com truth for a new generation.com or my own personal website, which is merely my name Alex McFarlane.com will were talking with Gary Ingram and Gary, I appreciate the ministry you do and appreciate all your investment and restored hope and how God is using you let let's get practical. A little bit. No doubt there are moms and dads listening and date because we get these emails and you know TNG is not primarily a ministry dealing with the subject of homosexuality, but several times a week we get the emails Alex help us. My son, daughter, college kid teenager has just come out they think their transgendered. They think they're gay talk to the parents. What you do when your child comes to an end, gives this bombshell that they've embraced homosexuality, or transgender is him so I always encourage parents with is those first moments of revelation can be a big deal and that I'm parents may be listening to this and and they already either did respond really well to the news or they feel like I didn't respond very well to it whatsoever and there still opportunity to recover from that. So a parent's desire. Understandably so, when I put my parents through hell over this issue, but the parents desire. Understandably so is to rescue their child to see that their child to hope that this is a phase of the going through it. Often times it's not the case. But what I would say to the parent is God has something profound in this for you as well. This isn't just about your child. There is a spiritual journey that you're going to go on and there's an agony that you're going to face. In some ways may be greater than anything you've ever faced before or different than you ever faced before and in that suffering, there is a refining and there's a there's a a preparation that God is doing in your life as well and try not to miss that as you are swallowed up in or can be swallowed up in just focusing on your child's needs.

So the other thing I would say is it so essential and so important that we not become weary in well doing another were in. In this case it's it's can be often times we are on our knees praying for our child agonizing over them, and yet when it stretches out to six months and it becomes a year to become six years. We can over time become discouraged and end and weary.

What I encourage parents to do as soon as they possibly can.

Is find a group and if there's not a group that that you're aware of in your area started group for other parents dealing with similar things and it's not difficult to do. We always love to be a resource for parents starting groups, they can contact me. 11. TruthNetwork.com and I be happy to provide information for them about some very simple and basic ways they can they can support one another and really be there for the long haul each other's lives. You know, we've seen the mainstreaming of homosexuality in and around the world amid pride days pride months. This is pervasively impacted the corporate world.

I mean, is there a hope Gary that the world will ever go back to a point where heterosexual monogamy is seen as normative and I suppose that there is always the hope for that but ultimately what I believe is in in that environment. Over the course of generations the church tends to get kind of fat and and lazy around some of those issues so I think part of what's happening with us in in our culture now is we are being more refined.

The church is actually the church itself is being refined are those that are even falling away from orthodoxy and become it's becoming more obvious in the midst of this, there is a profound field of harvest that we have right now and is going to only increase because eventually you know the chickens are to come home to roost.

As they say and and people who bought into the lie that sexual freedom apart from God's design actually is freedom. They're going to find out that it's actually bondage.

Many of them will begin to admit that begin to understand that and what a wonderful thing if churches can be prepared to actually receive people who are broken and lost people who have even gone to the process of a partial transition or full transition trying to change himself from woman to a man or vice versa and and they recognize this was not the right road like what do I do while they are kicked to the curb by the trans group that nobody wants them in that community any longer when they recognize that this was never right for me.

If churches are not prepared. How do you receive someone like that in who was literally mutilated their body and now wants to find one student become congruent with God's original design for them, but where they go to be loved and supported that process. The church needs to be that place and it's not an easy road. We need to get prepared for that gorgeous man out of time limits in this there might be 70 listening and they're struggling with sexual sin in their own life and they're thinking you know if I go this with this this will do it for me. All all feel a fulfilled, give us a word from the Lord from Scripture for the person who is at a crossroads. Do I trust God, or do I follow my temptations get give us a closing word. Gary welded the word that I guess would come to my mind the most would be wet in first John 17 where it says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of his son cleanses us from all sin. That's a powerful verse that talks about authentic community and transparency that frankly is not present to this degree in most churches and so what I say to the person is struggling with sexuality struggling with with gender identity issues.

Part of that huge part of that foundational part of that is broken relational issues and and we need to find community. We need to define places where we can be authentic and real and an open and honest about what were struggling with and and if we follow the the prescription of Scripture.

James 516 being another one, which when we confess our sins, for another, and pray for it out for one another week that we might be healed.

God's prescription for healing really is confession and community and we need those we need relationship and those kinds of communities in our lives to break the power of the addiction of sin and confusion regarding identity. Thank you.

And folks, thanks for listening.

Thanks for praying.

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