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God's true love. What is it, do we really understand stock for the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience have president of the fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by going 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown, a friends I am about to get into a wonderful interview with a dear friend and colleague about God's true love. This is a foundational subject.

This is something that every believer in Jesus talks about and knows about on a certain level, but it's amazing how many misconceptions that we often have comes to the love of God, my guest a dear friend for many years.

David Harwood also a Jewish believer with his wife Elaine is led the congregation in northern Long Island for many years. He is a worship leader and songwriter, but some time back, he got really consumed with the issue of God's love. He's written a terrific book on a call God's true love for the last decade is that seminars on the subject of God's true love in America and in other locations and there's been a great impact of life change through these seminar soaps Dave Harward, my guest, welcome back to the line of fire. Pleasure be with you, Michael, David, how did you get interested in the subject.

In your own life when when did you become really focused on the question of the meaning of God's true love was first focus was concerned about unpacking it began to happen after I received the impartation there was an impartation that transpired in my life after I spent about 10 years. Praying through the Philippians 3 prayer where in all spoke of him. Really prayer because book of his desire, his desire was that he would know the Messiah power of his resurrection fellowship of his sufferings to conform to his death. I made that clear. My own thought it was going to be my wife. Verse after Argus in between 8 to 10 years of praying that prayer there was a day that I was exposed to the prayer of Paul in Ephesians 3. To know the love of God and I realized the importance that prayer. There was an impartation from the Holy Spirit to strengthen our hearts that we would have the power to grasp the fullness of the love of Jesus. This was made alive to me and I prayed to the Lord concerning something happened in my life I was changed.

There was it was like a switch went off and all of a sudden I began to lay hold of the love God and way which I never had in my life.

God began to open up to me sir what the content of that love. It was much more than a feeling there's a real person. Those behind the sense of the love of God, and he began to reveal to me.

His heart and aspects of that luggage lawyer had not been exposed to teaching this is David you're a man of the word and of the spirit of a man who loves God with your heart and with your mind began to teach this to students of ours. We had a branch of our ministry school in New York City for a few years you get to teach this. We just got little over minute, but what happened when you began to unpack the Scriptures on God's love to the students what the size of the continuing his word to be his disciple know the truth. The truth will set you free. And as we began to open up the Scriptures to his younger disciples in the school. Their lives were changed does not exaggeration I was taken aback by how powerful of the message was really Russian. The Pentecostal Jesus of the words I speak to their spirit in their life.

I and and just so we understand his friends as followers of Jesus we talk about the love of God. We know the love of God. Most believers know John 316 for God so loved and in this way God so loved the world he gave his one and only son and and we talk about the love of God. This is love, not that we loved him. Firstly he loved us, we understand these things, and in yet there aspects of the love of God that my guess David Harwood would say that that we have fundamentally misunderstood face on what Scripture says. Since Paul prayed praise in Ephesians 3 that we will all know wrath and the height depth of God's love. We ought to notice things. Let us fix God's true love filename. If the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by going 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown walking in the love of God in making that love known. What if we have some fundamental misconceptions about the love of God would then affect our lives negatively. Would that affect your ministries negatively. Can we afford to live our lives without fully understanding and grasping the love of God, at least as fully as we can in this role. My guess David Harwood Jewish believer in Jesus like yours truly is been a pastor worship leader songwriter for many years, and more recently, an author and well known now for his seminars on God's true love in this book, God's true love David we often hear that, in Greek, there are three different major words for love, one refers to, while one refers to whether the loved one refers to divine love. That's called agape or the verb aga part of.

Would you say that that is an accurate statement. Overall, are there some accuracy inaccuracies in it, and if so where those inaccuracies lead us well let's see I know those that understanding is more like a current evangelical tradition that's been going off lasts 60 to 70 years, but the reality is that the word agape as well as the noun of the Gospels, the firm is a word that really it just means love. It means love of every description is savored. It's a an all-inclusive love and is not only divine love is love that can describe everything from that which is profane to that which is common to humanity. Give an example of the picture okay and John chapter 3 we have the word agape use three times. One is in John 316 which you have mentioned earlier in this way God is a lover for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, and that is God holy person the holy person loving a cosmos which is in darkness than a couple of verses later in John 319, the word agape is used again.

Basically it's written of this is the judgment that light has come into the world and humanity.

Loved best work. Agape love the darkness rather than the light because their deeds are evil so you have holy, divine love, which is motivating God to exit redemption to mercy and then just three verses later you have a love which, if not turned away from his damnable. This is the judgment of that humanity. Agape's loves the darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. The third time that is used in John three is the testimony of John the Baptist, Johnny Mercer, who said that the father loves word agape again loves the son has put all things into his hands, and so there you have the holy person loving the holy son of the things is important is that this word agape is an emotion, God has an emotional love for the world the prompts and that provokes him to work.

Redemption in the in the earth bring humanity back to himself. Humanity has the emotion of love towards darkness and despises the light loving the darkness in order to cover up their evil deeds and then finally holy person father loving holy son at the same time. Despite this, of the Starley of holy God loving, loving lost cosmos humanity loving darkness, father, loving the sun is speaking of the same thing when you listen to the much of what's said in the church. What seems to be implied is that agape is this holy selfless love that does not in any way consider the value of the object of love. In other words, I love that which is worthless because I'm a great lover and a wonderful person or I have determined to act lovingly and I have great control and so I act in loving fashion in both of those things. What you have is that agape or God or love has nothing to do with the object of love, but that is not the case. God really loves the world wants the world wants humanity back in relationship with himself, humanity at our worst loves the darkness and wants the darkness to cover up its evil deeds and at the best. The father holy father loves the son, the Messiah, Jesus and Jesus we are all in agreement with this is absolutely worthy of this love, but in the eyes of God, so also is a cosmos sauce was lost humanity. Agape is a motion right so what will unpack this a bit more the meaning of of emotion. When we speak of God.

But Bobby, it doesn't take much study to see that the verb or the noun associated with agape love is is not just the supernatural lover. This supernatural expression or just this purely theological expression doesn't take much study to see that as you mentioned, John three.

Obviously, if it is divine, selfless love, it doesn't apply to human beings, loving darkness, rather than than light and we can sign this through the use of agape and aga Paul in both the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Greek New Testament, but in short, which are basically saying is we have emptied the love of God of love because we've noted to theological God has a plan to save the world, and even though we are unworthy of his love yesterday loves us you were unworthy of his love yet that love is not just a cold theological love or an emotionless decision so let's get into this issue of a motion for moment will refer to God, not time a God having ups and downs and who don't pray the entities in a bad mood always in a good mood today is like a drunken alcoholic father. You don't know what to expect from him don't mean that. But some theologians speak about God's impasse ability by which they mean that because he is always the same. That terms like God's wrath. God's love. God's joy God's sorrow that these are just theological terms that do not actually correspond to realities within God, otherwise God would somehow be changing how you feel about that concept.

Well, I preferred the testimony of the Scriptures when I came to the Lord.

I humbled my intellect and just determined to take note take the word of God take the Scriptures the words of the apostles, the words of God incarnate the words of the holy prophets of Israel. I decided to take words and submit my mind to it that I empathize with those who wanted to the goddess in some sort of a euro stating that he doesn't actually interact with creation it doesn't actually God is constantly interacting interacts within himself. This truly is interacting with his angelic host is interact, interact with managing and just think that he has no emotions is to actually to raise is a theological or philosophical concept and and and consider that to be more perfect than the way which God describes himself, God describes himself as being holy yes but he describes himself also as being an emotional God of one of the songs I think it's online before it says he may be high, doesn't he see humanity.

Doesn't hear well our site and our hearing are analogous to God's sight and God's hearing and along with that, I think we might be able to add without distorting the meaning of the text.

You make the heart does he not feel does he not love and he says over and over again that he does and were supposed to look in our case to Calvary to see an extraordinary expression of love of desire of of of wrath of the wrath love of jealousy of mercy. All of these things are emotions and I think that that's how God wants us to see if in fact the Scripture says we know love by this that he laid down his life for us and therefore we have an obligation to love one another artwork we can unpack this more friends to get the full insight get David Harwood's book, God to love, but my heart gets stirred is as I hear these things because yes, we are fallen human beings and therefore our anger, our sorrow, our joy, our jealousy, our love can be mingled.

They're not perfectly pure like God's love. God's anger God's sorrow or but we have to realize that when God pours out his love. There is tremendous deep expression in all of us who have ever loved. We we have heartbreak if it's a relative you love dying. If it's a person 11 relationship broke yet heartbreaking.

You go through this decision is better to have loved even to go through the heartbreak than to never have loved at all. That is reality when it comes to God, a genuine longing and desire for people to come to know him a genuine pain when he is rejected and in his sovereign will. This is is and how operate. Speak to you as a believer unpack that David Harwood's book, God's love life in the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown Scriptures talk about God wash now in the truth of God's love. My friend David Harwood, author of the book, God's true love, Dave and I want you to open up the Scriptures.

I want you to minister to our listeners and to our viewers and talk to us about God's true love what it means to us as believers, as head of the primary thing that means is that if we make it our serious business to abide in the love of Jesus that were going to bear fruit that makes up that makes this really important in John chapter 15 of the Lord is speaking to his apostles. He's about to leave them at ease tons of the things which are really on his heart tells them five times abide in me, he repeated over and over again and then the next time that he begins to speak with them. He says this to them, just as the father has loved me. I have also loved you abide in my love. Now that is the key for abiding in Jesus. He says of identity abide in the over and over again.

He's teaching these men within the framework of an oral culture where by by repetition. They are learning and Jesus is speaking over and over again. They're getting it abide in me abide and be there. There concentrating on what he saying and then them. The last time that he uses these words abide in me speaking to them his life. Listen, listen, I want you to know what it means to abide in me, just as the father has loved me.

I have also loved you abide in my love. So that's the key that God incarnate, that's the Messiah giving us understanding of how he wants us to abide in him. He wants us to abide in him by adapting an inner posture towards him that he has with his father. The Lord knew that the father loved him and his immersion saying this is my son in whom I am delighted this is my beloved son, I'm delighted in him is the same thing at the transfiguration. This is my beloved son, listen to him.

Father delighted in Jesus.

Jesus knew that the father delighted in him and the Lord is saying to his disciples on the night he was betrayed on the night when all of these men are going to leave and perhaps come back know that John was a witness at the cross. He says them.

Listen the same to like the father has me I have the same delight in you and I want you to remain in a conscious awareness of my love I bet that had happened. How can I remain in a state of consciousness, God's love for me when I knew I really didn't have quality prayer today. You know I and neglected time in the word I, read the word in a mindless what you like.

I allowed my my thoughts and bad thoughts. I wasn't compassionate if someone had a need and I was consumed with something else. It or maybe something worse than that, how can I be conscious of God's love when I am very conscious of my failings and of his perfection and holiness maturely. It it may be a good day on a really good day I can embrace God's love for me. But what if it's not my best damn hat and here the disciples about to blow it big time. How could they possibly take over this weather have to take hold, because the Lord told this is this talk about our best day. This may have been their worst yeah they've gone to the Seder. The Lord said one of you is going to betray me. They begin to safe is it me isn't me and them that have had a conversation devolves into what I'm better than you are better than you are. And the Lord Messiah gets off from awareness that he is declining takes off his outer garments girds himself with the towel washes their feet says listen I want you to love one another, just like I love you and that he goes on to say, and this is the same night is prophesied to Peter, Peter, you're going to betray make the Seder all runaway.

They all did, and he's trying to secure them in the relationship with him that they would be able to turn to him at any point in their lives and say he said home that night he set it on that night on the night that he was betrayed on the night that Peter Peter betrayed the Lord with holes in it with curses.

I think that is using profanity and then I'm came to think maybe a couple of years ago that maybe he was saying, you know, if I know him be disqualified from the life to come. But suppose the curses with which Peter was denying the Lord work curses upon the Messiah. Suppose he was saying something like I don't know him and let his name be blotted out.

The last makes that makes the betrayal a little bit more serious. The Lord made sure that he secured Peter's heart after his resurrection, and these men would always be able to go back to that night.

The night that they betrayed him.

The night that they ran away and safe new. He knew it was to come, and he set up the same way.

The father loved him. Same quality of love, the same intensity the same delight, the same desire same way. The father loved him. He loves me he loves us that truth if taken by faith is enough to undo our hearts open open our hearts up to his love turn us to him. And if you determine to do that on an ongoing basis.

We will never be the same and we will will bear fruit. According to the promise abide in me, you will bear fruit. And we kids live lives that bring God joy our lives that bring God's sorrow that speak to the intensity of his love for us and someone could determine to walk away from God entirely God's commitment to us is that he's not going to walk away from us in our time of weakness in our time of pain anymore than we as parents would walk away from our children the time of weakness in the time of pain and David what what has so blessed me as I watch you and Elaine pour yourselves out for others. In these ways for so many years is that you are as passionate about this truth. Now is when it opened up in your heart.

Years ago, and I remember having lunch with you and Elaine. One day, I think you would your dinner. You just finished teaching like six hours straight on this and over over the meal you were both getting all excited about the fact the love of God, that wonderful this is. This is something that we can walk in forever in this world 2 conference.

I encourage you to get David Harwood split God's true love and David you often post some very insightful things online articles, blogs, working folks find you online where they could always find me know via Facebook under our our ministries, ministries website is the love of God project.org or just go look for my name David Harwood and put in love of God and should know that will send it to me yet and David Harwood being a less common in the Michael Brown that were that also love of God, project.org, the place where David always enjoyed the fellowship with even on the radio because the listeners were blessed. Thanks much for joining.

It was my privilege.

Thanks for having it's the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 866343 here again is Dr. Michael Brown and the deity of Jesus and the subject of God's tri-unity, the Trinity, God's complex unity are these beliefs that were created after the writing of the New Testament, perhaps even centuries after. With these beliefs that that were not really codified or or believe strongly until the Nicene Council in the early fourth century, is it Orthodox to say that the first disciples the apostles and the disciples of the apostles held to firm belief in the deity of Jesus or is that of you that should be challenges a lot of debate, discussion on that you'll often inherent in popular circles that the Nicene Council.

They kind of invented the Trinity remained Jesus into a God. Is there any truth to that, then we join today by a dear friend and colleague Dr. James White many view most of you are familiar with Dr. White's ministries, a foremost Christian apologist well-known author debater he's debated Muslim leaders Catholic leaders Mormon leaders well-known atheist and within the faith. He and I have debated different issues he's debated other believers on things we may have minor differences and and I want to address the subject with James today because he's focused very intensively for many years on the New Testament text, but is also made himself familiar with church history. So James welcome back to the line of fire. Great to have you with us today, all is bright and irrelevant. All right you are a believer in solar script Torah as MRI, which would mean that the Scriptures are the final authority for faith and life that we base our doctrine on what's written in Scripture and that is our final authority.

Why is it important to know what the early church leaders taught if we hold to solar script Torah. Why does that matter well because I gospel around the world and we live in a day where, because of the Internet being absent ubiquitous attacks upon the fate we can't hide our people the things we need to prepare them for it and obviously it makes sense that you make the argument while the teaching of the New Testament. They will say is an big US orders different perspectives and then we look at nearly church. These are things developed over time evolved over time.

And of course unfortunately have boxlike got into call with Dan Brown all over the place and people reading this kind of action and it was excellent but ends as a result, now it's one thing most Christians have the New Testament they read Lisa major portions of it when it comes to the early church fathers like people going nowhere left spending time reading the sources and so if those sources are brought up as an objection basic and pretty much, and witnessing opportunity and testimony opportunity because most Christians today don't know much about church history, especially about the early church is so vitally important especially discover that the testimony to the deity of Christ is extremely early and extremely deep and if you had a minute just to make a case for the deity of Jesus in the New Testament. What are some key texts that you would draw to a point to in just a minute well in just minutes.

Very difficult to do. It depends on who I'm talking to.

If if I'm talking to a Jehovah's Witness on an answer that very differently than if I'm talking to a Muslim. For example Jehovah's Witness in one minute. I would emphasize the identification of Jesus with the tetra granite tops another as I go to Hebrews chapter 1 ideal with verses 10 through 12 in comparison to Psalm 102-2527 because of the Jehovah's Witness they already believe that she is a God, all the references to Jesus as God really wouldn't have that much impact on them.

If the demonstration that the New Testament writers were willing to take those text which were uniquely about the God of the Old Testament and apply them to Jesus. In that same context, which is the key issue. Hebrews chapter 1, the immutability of the creator is not to apply to the sun.

Specifically, Nema chapter 1, also John chapter 12 in the citation from Isaiah 6 Jehovah's Witness that is her Muslim nation, and I would emphasize the Lordship and that in a shipment has not discussion portion, you jump in to the right type of games when I asked the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown my discussion with the white about the early church leaders believe that the apostolic fathers. The early church fathers as they are called. I had to cut James off a moment ago talking about an apology to Muslims about the Lordship of Jesus. The Muslims believe the Bible is God's word but it's been corrupted as we have it today as followers of Jesus.

It is much that they do accept so James if you are dealing with a Muslim doing apologetics with the most we've actually done these debates. This new tester present Jesus as deity Jesus as God will you do that would be different than just giving say with Jehovah's Witness or someone else that denied the deity of Jesus things I suggest about is to start undercut a lot of the objections that most Muslims, especially westernized muscle title Muslims come from another country and you can pretty much focus just upon on basic text identify Jesus, God, things like that but if they been exposed to apologetic in the in the Western realm then what I like the idea is certain. Undercut the objections by going to the earliest traditions in the New Testament to demonstrate the earliest followers of Jesus clearly believed in his deity, so I won't go there to John about Mark because they occurred. Mark is the earliest.

And unlike an argument about that but Mark plainly teaches the deity of Christ. I'm getting other tax debt company earliest generations. The very earliest years and so first print is chapter 8 be the Carmen Christie in Philippians chapter 2 I know these extremely early sources and say look from the very beginning. This is what Christians believe this is not something develops the Council of Nicaea's nothing becomes a couple hundred years later, it is in the earliest traditions we have New Testament and that's what helps get past the lobby objections and really down. The median matter with the muscle right so now let's get back to the issue of church history, and the earliest writings after the New Testament. Obviously again we base our faith on Scripture. But if in fact it is a living faith that was then handed on to subsequent generations, you would expect to see that the leaders in those next generations reaffirmed the things that we understand in the New Testament.

So for example if the subsequent leaders. All of them in the first couple centuries after the New Testament, all of them denied the resurrection of Jesus. All of them spoke of Jesus as just a glorified man. Then you think, what, how, how can that possibly be a reading the New Testament rightly.

Conversely, if they reaffirmed the fundamental things we believe, then we say that was what was passed on to them and that's why you see clearly in the New Testament and clearly in their writings so what about the case for the deity of Jesus and the apostolic fathers went where would you start if you want to say hey this is not just our interpretation of what is taught in the New Testament.

It's clearly reaffirmed by what the next generation of leaders taught. I think personally if I have the opportunity knocking to go to the dedicate alleges money.

Earliest writings simply because it wasn't meant to communicate things is to simply a manual of church discipline in life and things like that claimant's epistle to the Corinthians is interesting. There are some deftly some high statements about Jesus. Therapist talk electric discipline focused on something else as well. If you really want to go to the richest source go to the general epistles of Ignatius of Antioch and never really cool illustration of this back in the 90s somewhere plus RL and tract Society. Jehovah's Witnesses decide to do a series where they went through early church fathers and try to paint them as Jehovah's Witnesses when they got to Ignatius. They may really had to work hard because basically they end up doing was only quoting for what are called the pseudo-indignation epistles epistles. We know Ignatius insulting right there are seven genuine apostles of the road, various churches and church leaders on his way to Rome to be martyred. They never got it from them because they couldn't because the reality is in those epistles, and the numbers vary but minimally in the strongest form mentally 10 times most people and say 14 times in those epistles. He specifically refers to Jesus Christ as our God. And so they can quote from Ignatius denies Ignatius is about as far away from a Jehovah's Witnesses as he possibly could make and sell when we look at those epistles, we are struck not only with the eats with which Ignatius refers to Jesus as God Michael for me other things. It's extremely it is exciting to me I know most people don't get excited about Ignatius of Antioch but I do because here you have a man who is like the thing he knows last of the apostles, he is living at the bear in the very first decade of the second century.

So you see it right there.

I mean, about as contemporaneous as you can as you can get.

And yet the level of his Christology is absolutely astounding in back of him to read you a a tax from Ignatius Valley pronouncement. I think you'd agree with me on if we were to ask most modern seminary graduates to give us only two lines to tight lines describing their theology of Christ. I doubt it. If 5% could equal what I'm about to read you from Ignatius. I would be shot and this is this is the first generation.

This is the very first generation and what were told and what our young people are told when they go to community colleges and universities is best believe in the deity of Christ, and especially the whole realm of Christology God in man, the two natures on all that was was way, way down the road someplace on not according to Ignatius Sonny in his epistle to the Ephesians and what we would call the seventh verse, the seventh division areas. We have there is one physician of flash and of spirit generate and engender God in man true lies in death of Mary and of God first possible and then impassable Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I want to go through that carefully as you can hear the. The couplets that he gives there and how deep they are and what they communicate there. There's one physician. There is one who can bring healing spiritual healing to mankind and bring salvation to mankind. Here's a description of why is there only one because he's of flash and the spirit. I remember this is he dies in 107108 80. This is long before the Council of Nicaea long before Chalcedon of flash and the spirit so there is there is a denial of the Gnostic thing of the Gnostic perspective. What he did not partake of flash.

There is no true incarnation is a flash and a spirit there is there teenagers and dancing as well generates and engender so what will I will not refer to while on generate in the sense of the flash is not eternally existed came into existence, but as to his divinity is engender interest born and I bought you born and unborn base exactly exactly. Then God in man and untroubled layoffs, God and man. Sounds like John 114 me you sound like incarnation to me are not something way down the road, not something out with Emperor Constantine but very early on from a marcher bishop. We have incarnation regularly presented God and man. True lies in death, and so we have yet resurrection, we have the giving of life that is a very important to the understanding the gospel, both from Mary and from God. So again, maybe not in the technical language it's going to be used if it Chalcedon or seven like that once.

Is that all these debates and things like that but in very biblical language both from Mary and from God. The two teenagers once again first possible literally insufferable. So, in the incarnation, he can suffer then impassable as the resurrected Lord no possibility of that physical suffering any longer. The resurrection life so on and so forth, Jesus Christ our Lord. Again, if we were to ask most seminary graduates today to write a summary of Christ in a single sentence. How many would be able to view as well as Ignatius.

In the first decade of the second sent you and and with with that so confirms this with Prof. Larry Hurtado sought to demonstrate from the New Testament witness that the earliest strata. The earliest strands of witness in the New Testament point to Jesus as an object of worship point to Jesus as someone that can even be prayed to Mike Stevenson, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit in the early Aramaic saying Marana thought our Lord come so that this would confirm the highly exalted status of Jesus among the apostles at any again. We have to realize that is he rises from the dead ascends to heaven, since the right hand of the father sentence.

But he's not just a glorified man confirms that really dig deeper to see if Ignatius had anything else to say about this is the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by going to 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown and I have books.

Jesus became God when people made a man into a God. It is later, church history, it's Constantine it's not the New Testament teaches it, and believe in the deity of Jesus the Messiah.

Of course we can demonstrate the deity of the Messiah, beginning with the Hebrew Scriptures and overwhelmingly through the witness of the New Testament, my guest, Dr. James White foremost Christian apologist and author is showing us today that you can go to the apostolic fathers, the disciples of the apostles and you have very clear witnesses and some of their writings as to the deity of Jesus.

If you are familiar with Dr. White's ministry and find out more go to a OMI and.org 80MI, and.org for a wealth of relevant and always controversial material because he's tackling the controversies. James what else does Ignatius of Antioch have to say, you mentioned that he dies as a martyr around 107108 we have his seven letters written to different churches. This is on his way to martyrdom.

Any other important witnesses about the deity of Jesus and his writings there a lot. I mean, even given his excessive negations begins by saying by the well. The father and of Jesus Christ our God. This is common when he writes the Romans on the same language.

So this this direct use of Jesus Christ our God, but I wanted to start a continue in the thought of one physician tax as you have that deep Christology there and then within about two sentences in his epistle negations in the ninth in the night. Verse listen less. You are stones of the Temple, which were before hand prepared for building of God the father being raised to the heights. The engine of Jesus Christ, which is the cross and using as a row. The Holy Spirit, not again this is this is first generation and yet we have Trinitarian language. Just as we have in Ephesians and Colossians in first Corinthians is the ease with which the Christian people and associate father son and Holy Spirit in the one work of salvation.

And yet a clear distinction between the persons there is no is no moralism here is no surveilling is that there is no confusing the persons having one person acting like another person or some like that you have that the temple is being built to the glory of God the father, but the it's interesting that the term for engine errors were we get mechanism at the very Greek term, its use their need the engine is of Jesus Christ, which is the cross and I just stopped briefly to point out that in light of my constant apologetic witness to Muslims errors very early evidence outside the New Testament the centrality of the cross. In light of the Nile 041 to 7 that the cross ever took place.

So the cross is the be the engine.

The power by which this building and processes going on and yet being raised to the heights using as a role the Holy Spirit the role of the Holy Spirit in the formation of the church to bring together the of the people as the stones it pretty obviously borrowing from Peter's language here in regards the building of this temple so again I just I realized it.

A lot of folks are by going is that strange looking man so excited about this, but when you realize how common it is for scholarship to just dismissively assert that this kind of stuff was unknown to the early Christians you well even even a certain fellow that I talked to in a debate where this man debated Bob Gagnon on homosexuality. He had said, and in the debate we need to start we need start learning to think even differently than Paul did. Or even differently than Jesus did. When I approached him I said don't you believe in all in in basically Nicene orthodoxy and his response was what really believe it.

Jesus disciples of Jesus believe he was God and here you have the disciples of the disciples and they certainly believed it, and what the disciples give us the New Testament certainly thought it there as well. The consistency of this but the problem Michael is because of the nature of the Internet and the fact that there there really aren't any controls on right lies can get repeated so often, they become taken as truths and that is being presented to our people as being was being presented by young people and they go to university and community college and they need to realize there is a much more out there if you actually read this.

The sources themselves, but how many people actually in the book yeah and and obviously so we have to do our best to to popularize things get them out in in treatable soundbites as well as in lengthy scholarly articles and informal debates. You know I remember an article I read many years ago by BB Warfield where he was showing some of Paul's language the way that the grammar in the prayers and Thessalonians, when he would direct her prayer to the father and son but it would be directed as the prayer was to to one person the way it was crazy think that's so hard to break down explained to someone and I'm doing a poor job of explaining that the Greek grammar here, but when you have for example a typist to second Peter one references to our God and Savior Jesus. That's a lot easier to understand and you're saying that Ignatius repeatedly uses that were first or our God, Jesus Christ, how can you deny that he believed that he was deity with that simple language emits it so straightforward is that life started that his life ignored." Consider donation of vessels are housing an atheist today to find it. Brittania was making a presentation on development and of Scripture skip right over Ignatius and numerous misrepresentations and how many people can catch it all, many people have the background or even know someone they can go to ask the question ought to be able to expose this kind of accuracy. So much of what's on the Internet is just not even semi-truthful excitement semi-accurate but there's really no way for for most people to to filter that kind of stuff about this a one. One good thing that you want to do friends if you see something reported on Internet try to get it back to the original source so-and-so said thus and such okay where I had a call you. They say he heard this quote from an Egyptian president that allegedly said this and that it was time magazine and thus a six year loan I want to check out all once a time magazine. Another said national TV in Egypt but but don't then another sitter was quoted in another book.

I could never get back to the source, except that somebody once alleged it was said, and then it becomes that this Internet meme, so try to trace it back find the original source and change. We've got less than a minute you find it exciting to read. The apostolic fathers did to see that that these people willing to die for their faith as well.

Most of the labor but I do want to stay very quickly.

We need to let the apostolic fathers be the apostolic fathers, most of us in the modern day try to turn them into whatever we are yet but they weren't.

They were what they were. They were Roman Catholics, they work Protestants try to cram them into our box is going to cause a tremendous amount of confusion. Many of them even have an entire New Testament. Keep that in mind when you're reading them. They have their flaws but we can learn a lot from them a special