A Major Interview on the Error of Universalism

Host activist national speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the direct object fire school of Ministry of the line of fire now by going 66343 866-34-TRUTH is Dr. Michael Brown. I have been looking forward to today's interview were all quite a few weeks now since we have set up I have right on my desk I can see in my hand because it's a lot to hold your hand to massive volumes will over 1300 pages carefully annotated researched the new study on universalism, which one reviewer says the definitive treatment of Christian universalism for years to come. It is called the devil's redemption, a new history and interpretation of Christian universalism by Prof. Michael McConnell and in fact we talk face-to-face with interactive lot by email, but I don't know that I have pronounced his name correctly so she is the author of a number of award-winning books including let's see encounters with God and approach to the theology of Jonathan Edwards.

He is professor of modern history at St. Louis University and has done massive research into universalism, the doctrine that comes in different forms, but ultimately teaches that every body is eventually saved. In some cases even the devil himself will talk about the history of this.

How far back it goes in the church were going to talk about contemporary forms of this when you ask head on. Is this actually a damnable heresy. So without further ado, Michael Williams broadcast. We have either.

I obviously not something wrong with our connection. We will will reset so let's talk about this for moment you say, will the Bible is so clear that the Bible is is totally clear that there are some go to heaven and some go to hell with this broad road that leads to distorts destruction and narrow road that leads to eternal life. And if you find that narrow road that the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire that the goat nations will go into eternal punishment, and on and on it goes.

You could say that there are many, many examples in Scripture that seem to be black-and-white. Daniel, the 12 chapters. Many sleep in the dusty earth arise some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Some might debate the nature of the coming punishment. Some might debate is eternal conscious torment is a different type of eternal punishment. Some even opt for annihilation and destruction of the wicked, but all of these different forms in the most common through church history solicit the most natural reading of the text is eternal punishment. How does it reconcile with the idea of universalism that everybody ultimately gets in.

Now one.

One idea would be that that this is what Rob Bell argued for that.

There is a time of purging, a time of punishment, which is purging and purifying and redemptive. Somehow, after which people will go into eternal life others. The more extreme forms of universalism say that everybody gets in it just all different paths lead to God. So the Hindu gets in the Muslim gets in the June gets in that the atheist gets in the Christian gets it all different paths to God or any Scriptures that can possibly support this is a something that is been prevalent in the church through the centuries since we connect again with our professor, we will we will get his expert opinion, but let me kick things off right now is it's just me. There are verses that some would point to, for example, in Colossians 1 that that Jesus is the Redeemer of all things by which some would take that to mean that everyone is affected by the blood of Jesus affected Calvinist would argue like this. A Calvinist believes that Jesus did not die to save the whole world, but to save the elect he will save his people from their sins.

So this is God's purpose.

Calvinist would say when Jesus dies on the cross he does not actually make salvation possible for the human race. Rather, he procures the salvation of those for whom he died. If, conversely, he had died for the whole world than the whole world would be saved.

Calvinist would say that's not the case. I would say Jesus died to make salvation possible for all human beings and to effectively procure the salvation of those who believe right now those others go further and they would say will of Jesus died for us.

And if you paid for all of our sins, including the sin of unbelief and the sin of rejecting him therefore just by him dying for everyone. Everyone gets it obvious. I reject that that line of reasoning, as is with a Calvinist would meet with me saying it's unscriptural but that would be the line of reasoning with Jesus paid for over sins, and of unbelief and rejecting the Messiah or sins.

And if those have been paid for by the blood of Jesus. Therefore by just diverse. Everybody is automatically saved again. I just try to give you arguments by which people would see universalism or they'd argue, for example, in Romans five where it says, as in Adam. So the first man Adam all die in Christ. The second Adam all live in. The argument would be the whole human race was damned and Adam write the whole human race damned in Adam and now the whole human race raised in Jesus that a simple response to that would be all human beings were in Adam when he fell all human beings were in the first human being because they all descended from him, but the only ones who are in Christ in the Messiah are those who have put their faith and trust in him. Hence, the analogy does not work right.

Let's see, having laid out some thoughts for you while were waiting for Michael to rejoin us, sir, are you with us this time. Hello can you hear me all right, good afternoon.

I finally connected hate, let's let's just solve one thing here with all of her interaction. I've never been sure are rightly pronounced your last name. So how is that pronounced like climbing a treatment climate the climate. Okay, great, great, how did you get interested in the subject of universalism. Well, I felt didn't run 2011 as I was completing an earlier project at the book on the network that I was being stirred by the Lord through the Holy Spirit to pick on the topic. I did, I did feel that got it twisted my arm to to do that. I there with the turning point when I went to the newsstand 2011 and with the cover story by Meg.

What if there is no hell yes that accords with immediately.

In response to the Rob Bell book club when relative very very small part in a 1% less than 1% of overall project. It turned out, but asserted the triggering cause and I began to check with the number of other professors. Are you planning on engaging with me the idea that you know universalism is that evangelical option, like looking at different views of the rapture millennium like the accepted view and I didn't find others that really wanted to engage in and as I work on the project i.e. I really had sent the that I needed needed to be written, and even a little bit of the filling well with me if I do not write the burden that I was for Carrie and bring to completion and and then as I completed it the brand, almost like a feeling of worship.

But like you know I want to to speak rightly of God and salvation given in Christ in you, no one read the book that was more important that was more important than anything else. While in that sense I could. Jonathan Edwards type of perspective is well have to say so. Well my conduct. This is what I taught you young so just as is were waiting to reconnect with you. I mentioned a couple of things about universalism. So the most extreme view would be all religions lead to God. Everybody gets in that sense when that's normally a spouse by professing Christians. It would be one where there's some type of purging of of purifying some redemptive suffering, perhaps after death and then over some period of time. Everybody eventually gets in the most extreme forms. Even the devil himself with the earliest church proponent of that view, be origin well that the key part of my argument react what you figure that's a very important distinction between the Christian response to interreligious or pluralistic universe would Be different than respond to Kristin universe. Everyone will be saved, but there will be picked right my argument in in my work if the door did not. The first, the very first people anywhere far as I can: history of religion, or universal worthy so-called Gnostic Christian affected venture.

They preceded origin in and out mental if the universe was born in Alexandria, Egypt, probably among among Jewish Christian there were who were influenced by the culture that they were in. It was Beck's favorite girl at the end and an origin representative for later modification of that book.

The first datable reference to the teaching that all will be paid without exception is deemed to be in hereinafter around 180 A.D. working speaks of the court difficult Cpl. Crockett that they caught that all souls would be a big believer in multiple reincarnations of you didn't learn your lesson one like you come back again and again regular so that an overly everyone could make their way to salvation, what origin does he take that idea. It was already floating around among the Gnostics and he tries to make it right given to biblical basis, but work project. This earlier existence beyond the physical human physical body in which souls stand and then they fell into physical body that we do the parallel between Gordon and the custodian of the South.

Separate detachable from the physical embodiment, Jonathan got it and ends in my hyper grace book which I know that you looked at it and did cite in your you're finally such a spread everybody that's come near the subject. It's it's amazing work of scholarship friends.

By the way, it's accessible. It's not written in such a way that you have to be the top scholar top field in the world to read it. It's it's written with tremendous clarity, which is one of the gifts that Prof. McClymonds has assisted take these deep things and break them down and to discuss them.

But this new Gnosticism is something we find in the hyper grace camp and we've already seen people in the hyper grace camp as we cite the book swing into universalism and progress. McClymonds not only addresses the academic issues, the history, but some of the contemporary teachers today teaching serious error will be right back. The new two-volume study devils. Redemption calls are welcome. 866-34-TRUTH her plan by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I am speaking with the author of several award-winning books Prof. of modern Christianity St. Louis University. I would really expect that his newest study the devil's redemption will be another award winning book and this is a multiyear project and now we have it in two volumes another reviewer says a tour de force of historical theology. Just look at some of the folks reviewing the book. Some of that well-known names here and what they have to say that if I wasn't interested in the subject. I want to get the bucks, but I'm very much interested in the subject so Michael said to just look a little bit more history first. How how accepted with these views. I mean origin was a respected church leader second century. How how respect it with his views was this considered a Christian option in the early church and the church change its mind and went negative on it what what your reading of this what you alluded to that idea did fairly common on the popular level and next among scholars kind of the minority report idea that there was always this idea out there I found the longer I did my research, the less evidence I found found that origin was controversial from the time that his book is mutable. Our corner could go on first principle appeared around the 230 or so and it sort of went under the radar mean people in ancient countries.

They didn't have the collected works of origin sitting on the on the library helping. I checked out the young victim were copied. You know, sporadically disseminated and complete, not others, but but when it really came to light in a Latin translation around your 400 through the massive controversy and councils in Jerusalem and Alexandria, and then the Bishop of Rome or Pope with the ball to all of them condemned origin or if you universalism is idea prefect predicted the fall, and a bunch of other ideas attributed to him, that God is not omnipotent. A minute really. There are questions about origins view of the resurrection. In fact, his treatise on the resurrection perished, probably destroyed it most likely would not let the duffel the body grows and the Chaldees that it was merely a spiritual body.

Something like the origin was controversial empty attitude toward organ because working with such an important biblical interpreter and an author. Also on the on topic of spirituality that he was the first Christian author to develop the mystical interpretation of the functional yet.

The individual soul and the bride and got it right. So there were things that people appreciate that was always a mixed you know Jerome, the early church writer later said that it was like going through the field and there would be meat and flour. Pluck the flowers really believed that with the dominant attitude only very recently. In recent decades that some scholars have started to say no actually warded.

Universalism is a good thing and we need to break got it and there's the obvious appeal when scriptural authority is threatened when the idea of the righteousness of God or the authority of God is threatened when we have to present a message that is more appealing to men.

Basically, in today's world, it seems a lot of Christians are trying to justify God to people instead of getting radical justified in the sight of God, so setting like this, what everybody's lost some of the world is so small my get on your cell phone and talk to people around the world and they're going to help people in our parish. There's a final judgment there's any judgment.

All these views. Now really up for grabs. Hence it's it's logical that universalism raises its head once again and then Rob Bell course being a popular authoring clearly out of the evangelical fold if that wasn't clear.

Years ago, it's clear now. He popularize his ideas is on lots of church fathers taught this. This is been a live question for centuries so flatly that is really not true.

From a historical perspective report. You could buy an individual universal number of universes there hundred euros a thousand people that are not universal remanded weight of evidence, I would feed the board almost like that. The implement hockey hockey and organic goes along amended hockey stick on shooting up around 1960 to 1970 suddenly among academics are much greater interest. Karl Barth unfortunately did something in the night as early as 1940 get the ball rolling idea that every one of the lack universal election he wanted to think he was in universal after not exactly your event begins looking down on that, but but then what happened. Michael's run 1999, 2030 seems to be this sudden lift off. You can find all these books published on universal and and I agree with you very much. I think there's a cultural explanation that universes with non-Eastern Orthodox thing is more of a more of it late 20th century and with interest. If you look at the culture that origin living his culture back then was kind of like that is good, giving rise, universal damage.

Alexandria had the largest library in the world had a million scroll. So, like the Boston innovates in the world with all University intellectuals and of course are blocked of religion. There are different altar on every street corner. The Temple Soroptimist and all these other gods because of the math the contact with people start reading the Old Testament thing is Old Testament God is so angry and vindictive and and how can you Christian Candace. You know, come up with a more loving idea of God and that the context where universalism emerges in the right origins.

I think we were facing consumer cultural pressures. It reminds me of of Anthony. This attends commentary Greek commentary on first Corinthians, and he's going through some of Paul's teaching about sexual morality in first Corinthians 6 and is is really a lot of similarities between that world.

Then in this world today, and others who pointed out that that the Bible has always been countercultural in terms of surrounding so yeah you can find a lot of these parallels so if if you would say there's a favorite verse or two. Appeal to buy Universalists historically were those verses be well. One might be in Romans chapter 5 the latter part of that chapter and verse 15 in Adam all die from Christ all shall be made alive that the first cricket 15 verse another verse you have to read it in context to be read and cut it pretty clearly what those really what it thing is that those who work just as those who are in Adam died.

So those are in Christ will be made alive. Not intended as universal statement that everyone is in Christ, I'm Karl Barth emphasized the verse from Ephesians wanted to convert or chose not just as he chose that in him before the foundation of the world. He wanted to say that all humanity is chosen in Christ.

Well, read the rest of the chapter rest the chapters that having heard the gospel and heavy believed in the end, and the gospel of salvation, you were sealed in him with the spirit of promise.

So, it indicated that that there is the preaching of Christ. The act of faith and then the feeling work of the Holy Spirit. Amen spirit actually take what Christ done on the cross and acts like one of the problem parenthetically with universes that I don't really leave room for Pentecost to be kind of like everything happened at the cross will what happened at Pentecost the Holy Spirit came upon a distinct group of people who are then brought into into crowd into relationship with Christ in the new way on that day so that in every conversion, you might say like a little at the car so that's a huge problem with the Christo centric Universalists is they don't really I think do do do honor to the Holy Spirit and his role in first Corinthians 1528 talks about how God will be all and all I think it's one of the more mysterious verses in the New Testament that the verse that was often cited by the college.

The origin the case in Romans five it takes another case like Ephesians 1. What read the whole chapter is writing second to read, having been justified by faith. That's the beginning point of the chapter. So what Paul is writing about the many who are in all caught up in what Christ is done has to be seen in context upon the cold right when you read any of your first Corinthians the whole book when he talks about certain ones will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It seems he repeats over and over and over right these things have zero meaning first with his 15 flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Same terminology is used in the six chapter about about the wicked. Hey, if you can do this in a minute and 1/2 or less, a Colossians 1 through Jesus, to reconcile everything to himself. That's a verse used by Universalists. How would you respond to that.

I am looking at that passage I feared as a is a is a account of the divine intentionality.

II unite.

I'm broadly Calvinistic, but I believe in a universal divine wealth that God desires all men to be paid to become, to the knowledge of the truth to it, and for computer three at is not willing that any should perish is not there going to be very quick call to come to repent.

I think there's a universal salvific carpet that isn't realized in every case, I think Colossian best is best understood in that context. If the Greek theater scholar Mike like a baby in a closet. Believe it if it in order that he thought what the father's good pleasure.

All the photos to do on him and through him well. Good pleasure. You don't hear the Greek word is a kind of a signal that that particular word for God's original purpose and creation than it disrupted. You know, by human… This is a view that extinguished proposed originally by Chris Dom Maximus the confessor departed, but you Nokia refers to that original purpose of God.

If you want to be literally universalistic about you have to say that all things in heaven on earth would be ready no mean that Lucifer would be reading is in actuality is that, broadly, where interpreted God and end times perfectly radio friendly as well. I trends to dig into some contemporary examples of the error of universes. If you have a question, make some calls as well.

866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH 780. The book must be the devils redemption. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 8663 here again is Dr. Michael Brown know there are times when serious scholar and fish years and years of time and effort.

Research and study serve the rest of the world. In this case the rest of the church, and my guess Prof. Michael McClymonds, who is professor of modern Christianity at St. Louis University, a recognized scholar and Jonathan Edwards recognized church historian. He has done that with his two-volume brand-new book, the devils redemption. I literally kept it in my office.

The two volumes waiting for this interview together. It does deal with the subject of universalism. The idea that ultimately everyone gets saved. Everyone is with the Lord forever. Obviously has appeal. No Mormons have their appeal you get baptized in behalf of the dead.

Other faiths have their appeal. The time everybody gets in.

There's no hell, there is no final judgment and this is a day when there's a real extreme pushback against the idea final judgment of pushback against the authority of Scripture, a pushback against the authority of God, because of which there is a rise of universalism. Hence the importance of this study for many practical reasons. Michael thanks much for taking time to be with us today could be with you. So just for the sake of our listeners and our viewers who might not be familiar with the work of scholarship of this kind. Did you have to deal with original sources of the Greek language yet. I worked in well. In total, five languages Greek, Latin, French government and English guy don't read Syriac, and I don't read Russian, got it on translation of those languages but I all the ancient sources are cited in Greek and Latin, with reference to the original and got it yet and that's those of the languages I was going to ask you about, so, so it takes a lot of study to be able to read the sources in the original language, and even though you have good scholarly translations of these it still great to be able to research yourself. But when I just on my ancient times and ancient heresies were time on something that has risen up again. It's always been here little bits and forms different religions different calls holding to it, but it's really risen up much more in recent years and Michael is as we look at this. Would you connect this to a wrong teaching of grace wrong teaching of judgment wrong understanding of sin. All the above, and whether the theological errors that that lead to this today while I think there probably are several ways to express central problem one would be that it hurts and I'm not talking about the world but members of the church have largely forgotten God's holiness, God holy opposition that the defendant truly effective if you understand God's love and God holding up then keep it incredible tension on the one hand, got it loyal to the creatures that you need. But then God is profoundly offended by her and we judge ourselves by ourselves no and not in relation to the standard of God. Immaculate purity and holiness.

There is a radical grace teaching that everything Christ did everything therefore I need do nothing to stop and reflect on that you use the immediately in conflict with the new custom of their over 800 comparative statement that McCall not do something, I have another an unpublished manuscript on shopping right now on those incurred called to be like Christ. All 800 and through the grace simply written a book designed to serve the layout what the Christian life. There's also sociological angle, James Davison Hunter, University of Virginia early as the 1980s. He talked about what he called an ethics ability among younger evangelicals.

These are people would've been there 29 another in the 50's and 60 parent leadership roles and the number one rule and affect its ability. You do not expand to nominate things that offend other people. While the doctrine of hell course is profoundly offensive and not just in the larger culture even in the church, the pastor gets into the pulpit and read Matthew 25 talk about the sheep and the goats and seriously engages the question, are you sheep are you a goat. I think there's some people, many of our cognition to turn out turn around and walk out not come back. Yeah I was nestled you live in.

We have an issue yeah and in fact it just just as you mentioned.

Matthew 25 and the 46th verse which explicitly talks about some going way to turn the lights into eternal punishment. People so it is a parable. After all, yes, but something's being taught in the parable that's reinforced another parables and then reinforced in doctrinal statements. Rob Bell made one of the more bizarre claims in his love wins book that the word punishment there really just has to do with purgation. The purging and and somehow redemptive way would you take a moment to demolish that idea. A colossus got awarded in Greek o'clock. I think he may have gotten an interpretation from William Barklay. It doesn't well you know Augustine was right in the fifth century engraftment that the very same term is used reference to an outdated eternal in reference to the reward of the faith is used in reference to the eternity of the punishment of the wicked want to make it some limited duration cleansing. It just doesn't work in terms of the basic logic of the passage I found only one person historically who believe that the happiness of the faint comes to an end. He was like radically conflict.

The thing was that William Liston would be fixed after Newton in the lookout enteric everything at little tidbit there but but but that was such a radical beauty you look at the Guelph eternity can mean the limited term you know punishment them. The faint art rewarded for everybody gotten turned around, but no, just as the same are eternally in fellowship with God. So others are eternally excluded. Yeah so among contemporary teachers that are used for obvious you could mention certain academics and these academics will have a way of influencing others, but for the most part, folks in the church are touched directly by popular teachers by authors but speakers, things like that.

No pastors that that apostate size and going different directions. Carlton Pearson be an example of one that's that's left the fold. Some years ago and and now movie coming out about him recently who would some of the contemporary voices be that you engage with your books, doubles, redemption, and I appreciate that you didn't just make it academic. Only you engage with with non-academics as well who were teaching this heretical doctrine right yeah I wrote the book of the whole global church with 100 pages for Catholics and other effects on Russian theology oriented toward the Orthodox but yet Chapter 11 in their appropriately numbered. Maybe the chapter dealing with contemporary universalism and I am writing you just say to Michael, you picking with the judgment of purity here either people alive do not gather with Dr. teaching number of the ones I would mention here and I just didn't see any way to write this book without engaging their idea and but one of the I guess one of the key influencers probably would be the emerald through their website tentmakers.org itself wanted to find input) for more on the surface of the planet, the digital center of Christian university teaching it be right here in Missouri, and Missouri is where they live bait. Have they this website that it kind of like the Drudge of the universe is what aggregation my understanding is that Amro discovered 19th century universal literature wanted to make it more widely available, but there might be quite evangelistic and as universalists they want to spread the message date, universes that you've heard the good news, but better next Rob Bell never embraced the term universal, but he lays out all the premises, leading to that conclusion. In his book the heading and I Would Say Also Ct., Carlton Pearson, a person is a different kind of universalists altogether as I point out in my arguments about him. Pearson actually pretty amazing thing like that. All that great eternally and essentially divine that evil could not exist. But what I must evil were part of God so his idea of God is light and darkness, good and evil within God. He's really gone completely beyond any recognizable form of the Christianity I I'm friends with a pastoral friend of his from 70s and 80s is that you now think I like the universe is God, or something like that and then a nap in the charismatic world. I look at three or four different figures John Crowder who nodded, clear, and clung and stop universalists, but it's removed from a more RTM position at phone call part two seemingly more esoteric with a message on Facebook. He doesn't like my categorization of them in that way, but their statement directly to the next thing that God is re-absorbing the universe back into himself. As I said… Sounds like an esoteric view where we are essential eternally connected with Dottie also says that we are eternal in a tongue-in-cheek essay one plan my book. This is the direct quote run with that in the beginning were the souls and the souls were with God in the fold were almost God that that's the esoteric universe is beginning to penetrate into the charismatic world François du Toit South African to the dispersion of the Bible called the mirror Bible yet really not a translation it's really not even a paraphrase plot rewriting the Bible this or du Toit has a really amazing statement working that the only difference between Jesus and Jesus the knowledge of his own identity, but the direct quote so that it that is like a hard-core esoteric teaching almost but everyone has a Christ nature within them. Jesus therefore is not a savior. It's just the way shortly be showing us what's true of all of his smile. He's the ultimate Gnostic is more enlightened you know it's it's interesting.

I quoted most of these gentlemen to mention John Crowder and Frances to talk in in hyper grace John Crowder is an extreme example of hyper grace, but I cite the mirror cynical translation where it literally removes rest. I mean you have a verse that M went out when I teach a class on contemporary doctrinal errors.

I teach in hyper grace. I teach on can you begin Christian. We use those two books of mine and went. When we take one class and go through some of these paraphrases there some other hyper grace paraphrases that do the same thing, not quite as badly as the mayor with the Jackson family. Here's the verse and then you read the paraphrase or whatever you want to call it the new version and is just grass. Judgment have simply disappeared.

So yes, it does take rewriting the Bible I friends will be right back. On the other side of the break. I'm speaking with Prof. Michael McConnell in his new two-volume study I get the two vines here over 1300 pages.

If you like today if you're interested in church history. If you're interested in sociology biblical error interpretation error. These lines are essential to devils redemption. It's the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and logician Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown start error doctrinal error heresy that's popped appearing there in church history and the different forms that occurs again today. We need to know church history will you need to know theology well you need to understand modern contemporary beliefs as well and this is the right man for the job, which is why Lord laid on the heart of Prof. Michael Kleiman to write this two-volume study, the devils redemption studies. The doctrine of universalism. The idea that ultimately everybody gets in again certainly has great appeal to flesh out Michael in your research. We just mentioned the idea of people being absorbed back into golf in your research.

You also begin to study Jewish mysticism or study Jewish mysticism even more deeply and carefully, and there are some ideas in Jewish mysticism of God having to basically contract himself to make room to create the universe it and then some kind of a pantheism of everything being part of God are these not universalism so much. But these ideas about God absorbing everything in those kinds of things are these maybe common in different mystical traditions yeah yeah there is a long, long history here and community. I had a interesting moment when I was just beginning my research fellow at Yale University. I was in the grass yell no library and I had a list to handwritten list of of universalists in my pocket.

I'm trying to figure out what these people have in common. There are all different countries and Russia in England, America on grant and I pulled off the shelf, the dictionary ofnot Jay Leno. You know if I have not been the lectern at the terrors of them, and to my astonishment, there were articles on all these figures.

This is a reference work not produced by Christian scholars but I should buy people or favorable toward not they were acknowledging them analysis.

The first glimmering I had. While there is really a it's almost like a counter tradition I would use the analogy like it if you think of biblical teaching is a pure stream clear no artesian spring water, flowing out like another stream alongside of that that sometimes appears comes from the subterranean region blends in with that and then and then subsides when the church pushes it back and not come back against the long, complicated history of Holly Springs. Unfortunately, I think in a lot of contemporary theology that the muddy stream you might save been contaminating the pure water of the word that we need to be drinking it is hobbling start it it it is it's very interesting when when you deal with gnosis. This enlightened knowledge that that people get in this hyper spirituality. I am absolutely not an expert in Jewish mysticism, like I know a lot more about Kabbalah so hard Jewish mysticism than most people, but this is supposed to really knowing the subject as a scholar. Jewish mysticism does not, of course, nowhere in that in that world around but some years ago I was doing and outreach talk with chosen people ministries in New York City about Kabbalah Jewish mysticism and trying to show the ultimate enlightenment. The ultimate revelation is hidden on the cross and in plain sight, and in any way that got me looking more into Gnosticism and things like that and it was impossible to deny that the commonality in these different sources and Gnosticism really in a certain sense gave the early church a run for its money. It it was a pervasive heresy. So what was the appeal of it is at this hyper spirituality that we are just spiritual creatures is that this idea of we have this hidden knowledge is not relational is gonna do with relationship with God as much is enlightenment. What was the appeal of Gnosticism. Well it is a radical individual atomic individual Medi-Cal you that you have eternal nature within you the ultimate appeal to. I mean, you shall be like God, knowing good and evil. Many that were not born when the serpent speaks to Eve in the garden income weight.

The most ancient heresy certain that you could say but one of the scholars of not against someone who's relatively favorable toward Marvin Meyer said the key if not for them to not miss not the often that is God revealing himself now that the key is ego often the ego manifesting itself to show yourself to yourself that so and this is the kind of religion that we associate with people like Oprah Winfrey were the messages that you know you'd doubt deep down in yourself, you find that there is that all the answers lie within you the 1980s people referred to as new age is not really a term that is not currently right now but but I'm convinced of having finished his project Michael that one of the reasons for this book is not only to deal with universalism but to deal with Gnostic and esoteric religion because I think were heading into the world where all the different cultures are encountering one another, colliding with each other and if you wanted to set out to unite all the religions find some global religion that would blend together Christianity and Buddhism and Confucianism in. Thought you almost have to turn to not this idea of a divine fell that there yourself with enough that you already connected with God, and it always been connect with God at the thing about not always already you have always been at the other nature. You did not like like the movie the matrix in order. People suddenly see the reality that there trapped into the world of illusion, but there is this other reality that higher is very appealing to human pride. Yeah, it is an and then each religion has its own redemptive missing redemptive path right somehow gets you there.

You know it's interesting in the hyper grace book.

I have a chapter called the new Gnostics and one of the things that really struck me was people saying that no I don't sin. That's my flesh and I'm a spirit being.

So if I punch you in the nose that wasn't me and in Gaza consumers my flesh is concerned with who I really am. And since first John three says that the seed of God remains in me and I cannot send that's the essential me and that's what the passage must mean and you can't EAS and the lighting committed adultery I didn't rob the bank. I didn't worship idols. I didn't I didn't do it know that was my flesh in my flesh is dead. My spirit is alive it's it's such crazy stuff you wouldn't think you hear people say, but then there quoting Scripture that you know some even went insane, forcing everything is not read that redeem so profanity is redeemed and here you have the right people that professing Christians exchanging the most profane comments to show how redeemed they are. I mean, it's not new. These heresies have reappeared before and people becoming holy by sexual immorality and all kinds of trash like that.

But here it is again redemption through Flickr:: among the Rankin, Jacob Frank radical goblet yes so so here we are, once again, these things are raising their heads. All right, we've we've just got a few minutes left and obviously I want to encourage everyone.

This is serious student of theology in Scripture to consider getting these two volumes, the devil's redemption and you want to have them for your libraries as well.

Church libraries and in seminary Bible school. I was of course you have to have this, but if you could just in a succinct way tell us why universalism so fundamentally deviates from the gospel reiterates us with with the heart of the message of the cross redemption really says that would be a great way to leave things sin two minutes. If you could do that after well there.

There are key problems that identify my conclusion wanted universalism is a problem with regard to God is not as obvious on purpose, but in effect, universal old to an evolving God to God.

Actually need world create the world like a soul in need of a body to create the world and evolve with it in order to attain, got his own, that's a very unworthy view of God, biblically speaking, guided free God was created as an overflow of the law, not because he needed.

Secondly, if there's a strange ironic problem of great that the effort to extend grace to everyone and undermining grace for any that's very nonobvious to see the argument, but essentially the different versions of universalism ultimately end up making what one of them. If you can't say because I'm divine.

I have the spark of God within me and I don't need the Savior that that's definitely contrary great.

But then there's also the idea that I'm say because I'm human that they speak some of the incarnation exist eternally always got an amenity were always united Adam Mann that the Jewish public big idea commodity looks that something like that. That also undermines great because then the incarnation doesn't happen at the contingent event when American feed Christ it's always been true, then it could be saved is because were human.

And then there's the idea that I say because I suffer know that I go after death, and I expiate my own sin. The modern theologians they that will that also undermines great. We have to come back to great Michael. We need to come back to the got to the message of the cross which if there's anyone answer to the problem of universals mixed to preach the cross to show the got holy of benefit and it showed God's profound love that endured and exhausted that destructive judgment that would've come again so I met with a group of about 50 local ministers that the conclusion I came to the same conclusion I had to preach the cross and preach it rightly, that many other things will take care of himself theologically, yeah. And obviously if we want guilty of sin. Jesus would not have to die for us and if there were not consequences of sin.

We never had to die for us and I did not send people out to preach the gospel and to warn if everybody was automatically in the end. Again, it does exalt all these truths that the truth of the holiness of God, the love of God, the ugliness of sin and the plan of redemption Michael where were really indebted to us as some of that the serious research and scholarly work myself, but I know the effort that goes into stuff like this. The years of toil, so my prayers and God will use this to touch many, many continue discussions another day.

Thanks for joining us today