The Failure of Christianity Lite

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. There is no such thing as Christianity white stage for the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks for joining us today on the line if I are you ready be blessed ready to be stirred, ready to be encouraged ready to be challenged will all the above should happen on today's broadcast. This is Michael Brown his number to call 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH 784 at the bottom of the hour. I'll be joined by a dear friend of many, many years whose written and amazing eye-opening book about his own life story life story and ministry and help you be well done in God rather than current out yet what what comes at the bottom of the hour and I will bring you further encouragement on the heels of yesterday's broadcast route talked about great awakening is coming to America. A move of God stirring that I believe is coming. There are some who say it looks. Face it, the Bible says things are going to get worse before Jesus returns just accepted what if that's the case then then no one ever should've gone anywhere and preach the gospel because everything's is going to get worse and we should be talking about outpouring all around the world is God saved billions of people over the years.

We just got a hut huddle down weight hunker down and wait for the end to come in and plus who says that we are the final generation before Jesus returns and look for that to be the case. But where is it written.

What about that the fact that the Bible says the harvest is the end of the age. And what about the fact that the word of God says that Jesus is with us always, even to the end of the H what about the fact that the word of God says that the Holy Spirit will be pup poured out on all flesh in the last days personally.

As I understand Scripture. This can be great apostasy. Great falling away great darkness and in the midst of that great like in the midst of that great outpouring.

The greatest harvest member seen the greatest demonic attack we are missing. That's what I expect.

The closer we get to the end of the age went about the here and now. Right now in the midst of America's confused moral state in the midst of America's slide into anarchy and in the midst of of real critical negative times, which could mean the end of America as we know it. It is critical it is urgent, I believe run the edge of the great outpouring.

In fact, what I'm seeing consistently around the country.

Is this what people are fleeing from right now in America would people are dropping out of right now in America is not the real gospel it's it's not the real biblical faith is what you could call Christianity, light, and there is no such thing as Christianity light, it's either the real gospel or it's counterfeit. It's another gospel.

It's that simple. You cannot do deep-sea scuba diving in 1 foot of water. There is no such thing as deep-sea scuba diving in 1 foot of water.

It is that simple. The thing simply does not exist.

You cannot fly a kite inside of the cave that's 4 feet tall. There by very definition by very definition it doesn't work the same way the gospel is about transform lives. Gospel is about, leave everything and follow Jesus. The gospel is about.

He died for us and now we live for him. The gospel is about.

There is only one way to God.

And that's true Jesus and only those who come to God through him are eternally saved. That's the gospel when you water it down when you change it when you make it a what's in it for me message when you bypass the cross when you when you preachers of the Jesus it's no longer the gospel. No wonder people leave that no wonder people flee from that note. No wonder people get disillusioned and disoriented bike is not the real gospel look you preach a halfhearted message can get halfhearted results preach a compromise message.

Any compromise results preach the true message and get real results. Your sale not a lot of people there fleeing from evangelical churches gospel preaching churches and and that's where the real problems. While the off of the problem is you the form about the power yet the words without the substance. You have a spiritual message in part, that the reality of the message we have hypocrisy of the things that really being lived out where it's being preached which being lived out.

People are giving their lives for the gospel. They are saying I don't care what it cost Manor care how much I lose. I don't care what I suffer, I must follow Jesus that's reducing the results when I'm seeing all over America with consistency. Of course around the world and also about America because were such a mess here in America I'm seeing with consistency where Jesus is preached without compromise, not some watered-down Jesus doesn't know Jesus would really like to be your friend if you just have them as your friend need be so happy. But Jesus is outside in the rain and if you open the door of your heart, your nice little warm heart. He'll come in and notice of the gospel so the gospel. The gospel is flee from the coming wrath into the loving arms of God that the gospel is you need to be saved, you need to be saved as others have pointed out if there's someone drowning in the water and in you combine a in a lifeboat and you're ready to rescue them. Evidence go about to go down for the last time euros okay, let's just have nice mood music now and and it didn't look like I notes only take a moment and I don't want you to feel now the person is drowning. Reach out your hand and save them and they don't care they could be a white supremacist in a black and reaches out to save their dying day that take that hand because they're lost, have a bigoted and hateful.

They are there loss will spiritually recognize were lost when we recognize our sin. We recognize our guilt. Recognize that that before God. We should be damned. And then he shows his grace, love, mercy, salvation, becoming children of God being forgiven, being free being filled with God's very spirit it being with him forever and ever and ever. I like not just forgiven. In the sit in the corner forgiven become a child of God and and and the righteousness, the perfection of Jesus.just you and cause you a saint. The holy one what one well you know I'm down I have time for this. Maybe I'll give God a few minutes.

We do not understand salvation. Then you understand salvation. If you cannot come under the depth of conviction of sin and the depth of recognition of guilt and lostness if if if you cannot live that out then you don't. Still salvation is when you do the rock of ages, cleft for me that the the words of that that great him by Gustus topically nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the cross I cling and make it out of fleeting you when you when you recognize the degree of your lostness and then not just salvation but the abundance salvation new life in God and God becomes our heavenly father we live with him and walk with him forgiven and free wall board here I am, send me use me, Lord, everything I have is yours. Thank you for your mercy of your joyful bondservant here I am. That's the gospel and when it's preached in the power of the spirit people set free from their addictions and set free from their fears and said free from that the things that have destroyed them for so long and the deliberative in Jesus people come flocking it is happening all over America. Limitless read a few things is one of our grads missionary back in the states for bit he said I didn't get to listen to your full broadcast today. Speaking of yesterday but was later I did here in part with Ricky's call them also have our grasp of the ministry colleague for many many years and and powerful revival preacher. He said I just preached on spiritual hunger. Hunger couple Riso pastor Brent Stritch. Another grad and just have to say yes and amen to what you talked about. I can only speak for myself, but the Lord is definitely stirring something in me for greater hunger for him, like I haven't had in years is happening all over America, stirring the hunger. The thirst that the cry here.

Pastor writes to me on Facebook Dr. Brenna look your broadcast today can speak yesterday you said you wanted to hear if God was moving in a specific area. I pastor a church in Muskogee Oklahoma.

We are experiencing a move of God loosing people on their backs on their face. In recent months, along with miracles of stories take place, but I moved here from California. The church was dead because revived.

I'm 29 years old and I desire the genuine outpouring that I've read about from great men such as Ravenhill, Finney, etc. materials as you have read the test about the kids in Ireland on their knees while schools God came upon 1859 account we see God shake the young people in our church as well.

Your blessing to my life and I appreciate your ministry friends. This is happening over America. If will press in. If will seize the moment. If will say enough is enough with our casual Christianity enough.

Enough is enough of their compromise Christianity or the worst case is enough is enough with our counterfeit Christianity get back to the real gospel in the real message in the real cross in the real resurrection and the blood of Jesus, the power the Holy Spirit, forgiveness and consecration will preach those things in a living way worship God with all our hearts have an atmosphere of the Holy Spirit is welcome to move and meet us.

You will see people come flocking to get opposition to get hatred get Marguerite to criticism. That's always a good sign was for the gospel. You'll see people flocking to someone sent this via Twitter. I couldn't hold my tears during the show today.

I gave my heart to Jesus 15 years ago in a revival I become a pastor. Years ago I truly believe that the greatest revival in all history is coming. Thank you Dr. Brown for your faithfulness to the Lord. Listen, you know I don't mince words.

You know that on a constant basis.

And if you if you don't, his ancestor's first started preaching in 1973 central messages been repent. Wake up synergy in our church in many ways is messed up and compromise need to turn to got and were costly talk about what's happening in the world around us in the messed up state of things were written were never mincing words of never speaking to satisfy people's itching years, but it sure as I'm sitting here God's up to something. Things are happening to repeat from yesterday. Second Chronicles 69 the eyes of the Lord go throughout the whole earth. Looking back and forth throughout the whole earth, that he might stand in strong support of those whose hearts are holy, has cry out where we are. Lord, I'm yours.

I'm yours I belong to Hartsell mind, strength, Lord, yours by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks friends for joining us at the bottom of the our system will be joined by Mike guest Dennis Bambino. In fact, just get you the details will make sure that I have the info. I love this book.

I wrote an endorsement for make sure yeah that I'm sure the exact time to write a recipe for fried Christian going from spiritual burnout to well done lover of God.

Yet the play on words there so we talked to Dennis. If you do ministry work over the years you find yourself burnt out now think you'll find this to be really helpful in tribute white. Someone might say to me like even if you're right. Even if there's going be another outpouring in America, even if over America go scope or the spirit and in many will be saved and churches revived has an effect the larger culture.

What would you use another revival. Four. If that's the end all if it's just a matter of Christians getting refreshed was people getting saved, and it stops there. Then stops way short way way way short. Instead what has to happen is that a revived church. I'm talking about the people of God on fire for the Lord on some of the people of God putting away hypocrisy and compromise.

Talk to people about the people God really making an impact for God as as the people of God are touched and come alive in the light begins to shine as backsliders turned back and get right with God. Gunfire forgot as lost sinners are saved and made into disciples and the church acts with a moral conscience, there can be an impact around us.

In other words revival in the church can lead to awakening in the society revival in the church is not just a series of special meetings and and and everybody getting all worked up and excited and all Nono is something more something deeper something greater, there is visitation that becomes habitation that the move stays with the city changes the way we live and look the Jesus people movement a whole bunch of us got saved. Late 60s early 70s up to the mid-70s and many the people save then have become leaders in different areas of ministry around the world in different areas of society. On the flipside, the counterculture revolution of the 60s, people came out of that became college professors but with a radically different ideology became media influences but with a radically different ideology became political leaders, but with a radically different ideology so that ideology really one out the day and turn the hearts of many in the nation and further turned us away from God.

Sexual revolution, radical feminism, pro-abortion movement, gay activism, various things people very sincere about their agendas and feeling their fighting for what is right and good, but ultimately the wrong destructive way.

So were reaping the fruit of that, kids, grandkids, great grandkids avoids reaping the fruit of that today.

But this is how generational change comes. What happens if a whole generation of young people now who right now largely hostile to God, or not believing it. All are dropping out of church they really encounter Jesus and they get rightly discipled and we are conscious about raising up leaders who go out into every clear sphere of society living out the gospel.

That's how you see a shift come you have an immediate result within the long term is the larger shift so we don't need another flash in the pan movement.

We need something that will make a generational impact or will be the final generation to usher in the return of Jesus. I want to take you to Rochester, New York in the year 1830 and Daniel Norris who in turn studied under Steve Hill worked along with Steve Hill for years in ministry. Eventually Steve Hill got used to spark the system who God used to spark the Brownsville revival in 1995 Sue Daniels, a great heart for revival and evangelism. What it will play couple clips about Rochester what happened. The prayer behind and then tell you the end results of the story. Back in 1830. Let's listen the greatest outpouring of Charles Finney's life came here to Rochester, New York in September 1830 in just six short months, the city would be completely transformed. It was revival so significant that even many's harshest critic would call it the greatest work of God in the greatest revival of religion that the world has ever seen in so short a time. 100,000 salvation's were recorded during the revival. Imagine that, my friend 100,000. They came from all social classes from politicians to businessmen along with lawyers, teachers positions and farmers. It was a citywide Reformation that shut down bars and cause the crime rate to drop dramatically.

This event was the spark that ignited revivals the spread across the north and east of New England during the second great awakening became the blueprint for future evangelist revivals throughout the 19th and 20th century.

This is a significant stop on the trail of buyer evangelist Charles Finney came to Rochester, New York in September 1830, the art, so came there to fill the pulpit started to cut in their stead by time signature off and of before eight, before he engages in ministry. There were two men Daniel Nash and Abel Clary and they would pray they would intercede day and night. This is what laid the groundwork for the ministry… A little bit more. This trip was joined with his family and his friends Daniel Nash and Mr. Clary Finney strategy for winning a city was simple prevailing prayer and powerful preaching in the years prior to Rochester. Benny had perfected his style and become an effective soul winner. Upon arriving in the town Nash and Clary sought out a room for rent to begin a prayer meeting they shot themselves in that room and began to intercede for the city. Nash and Clary would be rarely seen outside, they remained in that self-imposed sale where they were overcome with the spirit of prayer they would last for days. Prostrating themselves on the ground and through weeping and wailing. They made intercession for the city.

Finney rely on the power of prayer. Prayer became the foundation of his ministry and the key to success point that we must all learn from. One more quick poem, play, and then tell you the last was also human.

You may be Finney fan I deeply appreciate his ministry, but at the foundation of it. Intercession, prayer, crying out, and then preaching and uncompromising message one more clip my friends, study revival, history, look to the trail of buyer and you will see the pattern has always been the same revival does not come by accident or happenstance. It may come suddenly, but never accidentally. It's time that we once again begin to prevail in prayer and get back to the preaching of the gospel. These are the two most effective tools that the church employees.

They may have taken a backseat in recent decades in our cities paid a price.

As a result, are hurting city is the outcome of the week in church but however they may not hurt any longer gospel coming in fire and power was revival can trick a whole city, so this is from my book from holy laughter to holy fire talking about this very event things preaching in Rochester over six months. This was what John S.

Tompkins reported in an article entitled our kindest city printed in the July 1994 issue of Reader's Digest Tompkins wondered why it was that the city of Rochester New York was rated the kindest, most altruistic city in the nation into separate poles when taken in 1940 and the other in 1990 to 1992 he discovered the surprising answers was thinking what made Rochester special 1940, 1990 to 92 polls taken it was considered the kindest, most altruistic city in America.

Based on what this was an article in Reader's Digest mycotoxins discovered this what you according to the article, Finney spent six months in Rochester and converted that's his way of saying it converted hundreds of residents, lawyers, doctors, judges, tradesmen, bankers, boatman workers master craftsman to bring in Christianity he scorch their consciences and urge them not to follow the selfish ways of the world. Finney angrily denounced the evils of selfishness and deliberately aimed his message at the wealthy and powerful. This finished preaching in 1830 is continued, having converted the affluent Finney's final step was to get them to direct their energy and wealth into beneficial philanthropies.

He was amazingly successful Rochester embarked on a church building boom Rochester Aryans went on to establish University organize charities and self-help agencies build the public school system fight against slavery. The city was.

This is upstate New York right.

The city was the station on the Underground Railroad would smuggle slaves into Canada form unions and reform prison system. Rochester became a city where love for one's fellow man was more than an empty phrase and Tompkins Kissimmee friends Tompkins is saying that as of 1992. So over 160 years after the meetings they were still feeling the effect this is what happens people get really converted as I want to do something about the injustice in our society they get really converted this out.

I want to do something to help the poor bigot really converted in this. I want to do something to change the schools and and and and give them a more godly foundation. They get really converted and say we we got address the pretend marriage and family and societal change can come. It starts the people of God coming alive. It starts with true bona fide revival outpouring that gets the church back to being what it's supposed to be. That gets the lost hearing a real gospel in getting radically and dramatically converted then this ripple effect society can be impacted friends of all my heart I believe that we are in the early stages of a gospel based moral and cultural revolution. If will really take hold of God as if there's no tomorrow. Who knows what tomorrow may bring right back to light a fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 86. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks for joining us on today's broadcast of 1 to 5 of you looking to this interview now many weeks so I was teaching at a Bible school on Long Island. Christ for the nation's Institute biblical studies branch of the famous Lord school in Dallas. The school Long Island existed from 83 to 91 and I was there for me 3 to 87 so I was in my late 20s early 30s teaching one day and most of the students were in a college-age and a couple came in actually older than the member well-dressed, distinguished looking and I I taught I thought some really good in-depth stuff about the high priest in ancient Israel. How this forced out of the Messiah for shutter or priestly calling and member meeting with the scalpel he wanted to find out about the school.

I thought that's interesting.

There older than me and the husband was considering coming to the school's businessman and didn't seem too impressed by the teacher gives good basic stuff at the cadets interest or any anyway. That man then spending with his wife Jackie now married 53 years.

Dennis came as a student graduated from school became a faculty member plan of the church is been doing ministry around the world, but has learned a lot of lessons along the way and is passing them on in a brand-new book that is written so Dennis welcomes a lot of far thanks for joining us today expected to be here. So many good memories from those days that Christ nation. The amazing and some of the people that were taught and trained. There have really gone out and made an impact. The Lord hate Dennis how many kids you and Jackie have we have three girls and 12 grandchildren, 12 grandkids wonderful yeah ran into one of your daughters and in DC back in September to vent their souls there long time since we've seen each other but we walked together. I remember you planning to church, you were given specific dog to use part of that revamped it.

I remember coming to preach for you and the rabbi was there just some wild things over the years with a lot of ups and downs and you've written a book which is brutally candid.

We talk about not being your right calling, getting burnt out. What is it now after all these years you in your 70s you've administered around the world as a said what moved you to write this book now. Well, like I I know that my experience of being in ministry marriage and business that led me in to being burnt out that the left but I learned how I got there could be lifesaving for so many people I know so many in marriage ministry.

People who have gone through church experiences that adjust pride and it is my desire that the book would help them to realize not just the path that got them there. But the path that will get them out and become a well done lover of God, because that's what God did for me. It was so faithful when I crashed. He intervened and just renovated reoriented reformed my life yet. Dennis, the book is is really candidate. Again, having lived through some of it with you. You can only just. Ouch. Oh, that her or all that was worse than I realized, are all about that part of the story, but it's not just what went wrong as you are sincerely trying to follow God's selling some moral failures.

Instead, as you are sincerely trying to follow God do ministry you got burnt out, you realize that sin which are outside of your calling, but the practical life giving suggestions in the second half of the book or or super valuable. So for those who haven't made the mistakes. This is a way to not make them for life again.

The name of the book recipe. A recipe for fried Christian going from spiritual burnout to well done lover of God Dennis, what would you say was that the essence of why you made certain wrong decisions are ended up spending years. Outside your primary calling.

I think it really boils down to the foundation that I was living out of was very much a performance and program oriented and it wasn't centered on a very deep intimate relationship with the Lord. After I went through after I went through the crash and just totally surrendered of the Lord asking the question when did the great commission supersede the great commandment and I was so performance oriented that I missed that completely. I mean I heard you know, if you let me keep my commandments, and what I heard was commission so I did it. I mean, I went full bore into ministry to the nations to build churches to make disciples. Whatever the Lord would ask of me, and believing that my obedience was on my way of loving him but the the book is built on kind of a word play on Matthew 25, 21, well done good and faithful servant" being performance oriented. I heard well done, so I'm gonna go out there and I'm going to get it done but I missed the good and faithful part of it and and I were and I came to realize and and that was part of my restoration that she's more impressed with who I've become than what I've done to re-create us, reform us into the very image and likeness of Jesus and that was the Reformation that I went through.

He had to on earth.

All of the precepts concepts Hertz wounds misconception lies that I was running with and re-really really rebuild me from the bottom up and that's what the book is all about. You know that what I've become, is now a lover more than a waiver of, you know, if you love me, keep my commandments.

I missed out also love him first and learn and I'm still learning how to dwell, how to abide how to wait upon the Lord to John 15 branch abiding remaining in living out of a intimate relationship with the vine. Jesus said, without me you can do nothing. So trying to produce fruit is not the object of the branch abiding is actually so he just turned me upside down and inside out, but he had to get me to the place where where I was totally surrendered and it took all about breaking you know for me to plunge into depression experience betrayal Hertz wounds I describe, or that in the book, and so many people that I know and so many ministers have gone through those kinds of experiences, but for me wasn't the experience that was the problem it was that the reality of God in me was, not big enough to overcome the reality. I was walking through so he had to on really bring me into a place where he revealed his nature.

This person I had always worked for approval and I had to buy Revelation come to the realization that I'm preapproved on the approved of my father in heaven. And I no longer work for approval, but out of the pool.

Veterans expend offensive last.

It brings a tremendous sense of God knows what he's doing and he'll use me when he wants me where he wants me how he wants me and I can I can trust him for that was a whole new ballgame and your friends like I could say it in a certain way that this book it took Dennis decades to write because he he lives through the bad experiences, but all through bearing fruit impacting lives and then the the rebuilding the restoration the change that the Dennis is talking to friends and is nothing to happen overnight.

This is also over a period of years, but Dennis what what I want to focus on for a moment here. Got about three minutes before the before the first break in the new book a recipe for fried Christian I knew you back in those years you were deftly drill Sgt. I'm your great disciple maker. That's what that's what you would know for the school you do look very disciplined life yourself, you would discipline the way you taught the students and but you seem like a lover of God.

You seem to to the things you're saying now. I would've thought you knew back then. In other words, you make a very black-and-white, but it saw the listeners because I was you would've said back then.

We love the Lord I'm doing this out of love but beneath that something was wrong so it's it's often more subtle, so many pastors, leaders they go through the whole ministries without ever learning what you learned absolutely like it. It was very subtle again. One of the primary adjustments but God had to make was that serving him was not necessarily loving him obedience isn't necessarily because you love someone, you can be obedient to the law without love, but you can't love without being obedient so love comes first, and out of that love you just want to please the person that you're in love with. So it's not even a matter of commander, commission, are you just go you just do it whatever you want, Lord.

So yes II was very much a soldier, but I wasn't very good at sitting sitting dwelling waiting upon the Lord. I mean I could teach principles without the presence of God and and God is faithful. I mean, when you teach his word. He shows up.

I mean, he blesses people, processes were right on feelings to place elevations took place, but inside I was in complete. I was never satisfied with how good it was. It wasn't.

It was never enough.

It was never good enough. I could set this I could've done that and so you're constantly working against the need for approval satisfaction piece you no identity so on that had a that had to change my identity has changed from being a servant to being a son, and I can be satisfied and that, and you want one of the Scriptures that woke me up was was you know from Matthew 721 Lord, Lord, did we prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and perform great you know of great miracles and he said I never knew you. Apart from the workers of iniquity and was like oh my goodness, I mean I need to know you, Lord, I need to know who you are and need the CUI I need to live out of the secret place not just jump in and out whenever I need help. Not go to your work because I need a word for sermon or message but living word and live out of your work is simply a listing see that that's the that's the get the book. It is super practical things through it the listed recipe fried Christian, Dennis C. Bambino, it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks friends for joining us on the farms and Dennis Bambino. We have the joy of working together on Long Island decades ago and he's finally written a book, not just with his life story, but with life lessons that are crucial kind of thing that if people could read early on in ministry early on in their Christian lives. It would save a lot of heartache.

The name of the book a recipe for fried Christian Dennis that the school setting in certain ways was ideal in terms of laying out precepts and training in teaching you went from there to it to church that I remember you try to work together with other pastors on Long Island and said hey you have a gift here you have a gift to you have a gift there one. We will work together and put a school together. They look to you like you're talking a foreign language to give working in a cooperative unity way wasn't in their heads and then pastoring was different in a school setting. So now you you finish teaching and see if the school closes. Now you start pastoring a church which what you learned in the process of that what you have and what did you not have moving from the school clinical that Christian Shangri-La because the students came there they paid money to be there.

You can discipline them you know if they didn't really connect with the plan and the program of discipleship. You could, you know. Ask him to leave, but in the church setting.

You have a lot of people that didn't have that mindset of discipleship mindset soak attempting to impose a discipleship process on people just wanted to be cared for wanted and felt needs met was extremely frustrating for me and we attempted to do it on different levels of some of it worked, but what it did in the church was create a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure on people do what I called do things they didn't want to do to become something they didn't want to be to go someplace that you want to go and and that was that was part of the fuel that build to a crescendo when there was you know a real breakdown in the church and that created in me personally a sense of failure sense of loss of identity because I put my I put myself into it so much that it was it became who I was. It became who I wanted to be and when anyone puts their their whole being into doing something. It probably never comes out the way you want and then it's questionable as to whether or not you with valuable enough, whether or not you were strong enough, smart enough to really do what you wanted to so that that that it was critical to my Reformation is change of identity to fail from a worker to a worshiper from a servant to a son, so that I i.e. I am now I believe so secure in being a son that the success of what I do is really up to God and I can rest in that suit.

Dennis, as you work with many leaders around America round the world, not to mention the lack of people work together in a unified way that you ran into kisses my competition and think other fine men and women of God. You've met them. I've met them work with them. I don't want to give a a wrong or false impression, but would you say that many many pastors and leaders are not ministering at a security and that's why there's so much healthiness in the church I augment and I think you have also really hundreds of them that you were called into the ministry and they're trying they're trying their best are sincere, but sincerely wrong if there attempting to build a ministry without the grace to do it without the unction without the presence of God then they're going to experience failure and they're going to experience hope deferred and dreams crushed and crashed.

That's what happened to me and then you have to go back to the drawing board and say why am I here in one of my doing. And the Lord is so faithful. I know that his faithfulness to me is his faithfulness to anyone. The calls upon his name to reorient you to a first love relationship.

I found out that you know we put Jesus in it. You know in a box alongside of our other program prayer in a box alongside of other program.

Prayer is not essential if the relationship with God is not first on everything else is going to wither and die if it's been birth of the flesh in its place that's got to keep it going and your strength runs out and you become exhausted, depressed and fried so I found out that you know Jesus doesn't want to be first, it is want to be the first in line.

He doesn't want to why my wife doesn't want to be my first wife for my the first woman in my life. You must be the only one it's Christ centeredness and I have to know. I have to confess, we we preach the gospel but Christ wasn't central it was everybody jump on board the latest program everybody get into a soul group you know everybody go on a missions trip. Everybody get into discipleship class everybody read the word but it wasn't a devotional life where people were enjoying the presence of God and enjoying their walk with the Lord. So one of the one of the litmus test for me now is my joint level is very little joy when you're working hard and you're pushing against almost immovable forces and of course I know you look plays into that of course is demonic forces that want to keep you from really producing a lot of fruit so the joy level is very low for me.

It was very, very low, almost nonexistent. There were very few things you could celebrate because there was always another battle there was always another general program that was needed to fix the gap or to help you know help people along the way and you wound up doing a lot of things you weren't called to do and you weren't great for me okay so so when when you're in places, but you're not called to your grace level was very low and your you're liable to burn out very quickly and Dennis was so remarkable is I remember you making reference to the analogy that your your wife does not want to be the first in a line of other women in the put Jesus first put your wife for a moment. What was that mean I remember you saying that decades ago and yet the reality of it took years to hit. I'm sure it's with all of us, in which we understand in our head but we haven't really gotten it and in our heart and were actually teaching others, and we don't have it, which means they're not can be ably really get it either because we can't, we can't really impart what we don't.

What we don't have. So as a result of that, as is there many people insecure unhealthy in ministry.

It produces unhealthy churches and then people in in the just in the body they get in the same works performance thing they end up dropping out and it creates a vicious cycle. But on the flipside, when people live by the good principles. It produces a cycle of of life, and I think you actually seen it just even in your own family, kids, grandkids those closest to you that that the life that's in you is more naturally reproduced in them and then it reproduces from there.

We got two minutes.

What would you say that you seen that cycle of life.

Now reproducing itself absolutely, and I I would direct anybody to realize that I had knowledge is not revelation will spirit knowledge and we've got to give God enough time we got to spend enough time using on his word. Waiting on him, so that what we know with our head explode in our heart and become such a big reality but nothing absolutely nothing. No circumstance, no situation or the personal demon in hell can destroy it because you come to know that you know that you know and revelation will revelation will experiences of of God need to be continuous. We will never see the end of God and we need more of him and more of him and more of them, especially as these days that were looking at are getting darker and darker. We got to grow deeper and deeper into the light. Yet, it's friends. It's an inevitability, just like the branch abiding in the vine. The believer abiding in Jesus fruit will be produced friends. I'm not sure you get the smoke everywhere, but if you go to Amazon is looking right now a recipe for fried Christian going from spiritual burnout to well-done lover of God, get the paper back with the Kindle e-book if you like e-books. I read almost exclusively on the books these days, that's about half price so get it for yourself. Give it to a pastoral leader know if you've got folks young in ministry here on the Bible school so helpful and though this getting Dennis, thanks for being so open and honest. It's is not easy to do that but bearing your soul but then giving life giving principles as I went through the first half of the book and liked also painful to read this and I went through the end and all the practical wisdom everything you've been through man. The hardships the challenges the difficulties of the decades can be a lot of fruit and many who read this book so thanks for writing it, and I hope to see you again soon.

Then Douglas bumped up a good front and we are going for man here together on the phone. I say having Jackie and the kids recipe fry Christian another program powered by the Truth Network