Is There a God?

In the debate over origins. There are those who say that all living organisms naturally developed on their own with no help from a creator are very fond of a dandelion seed, which find out a little bit of an umbrella to be carried out by the wind to places other than where it originated.

That's a very clever little device for accomplishing that purpose and I'm absolutely sure that that dandelion seed did not think that up your mind as we bring you an interesting twist to the idea of the debate Dr. RC Sproul and his longtime friend and mentor Dr. John Gerstner spent some time participating in a mock debate to help us understand how best to defend the Christian faith before we get to that though our president and CEO Chris Morrison is stopped by the studio. Chris I know that you want to express your appreciation to our listeners.

One thing that is that I've been your ministries is the number of people who connected with this many many years ago and remain loyal to this ministry absolutely and in this, our 50th anniversary year. We are taking some time to reflect on God's goodness and blessing that has come through this ministry for the benefit of his people as the word of God has gone out with great power and clarity from Dr. Strohl and many other teachers, Amy Rodin recently to tell us that she found that God took hold of RC and used him in so many remarkable ways. She says it's all about.

Clearly teaching the truth of God's word and watching God work in hearts is that truth convicts and calls for right relationship with him. RC more than anyone else I've come across have the gifts of not only clearly teaching, but doing it eagerly and lovingly he was likable and eager to share and was passionate about the word of God is contagious. Talk about a pandemic RC scroll was a man spreading that wildfire of God's truth far and wide for that I am most thankful I met fire and passion. Chris is evident in this exchange with Dr. John Gerstner, so let's listen to is there a God welcome to the second of our debates that we are having here between myself and Dr. John Gerstner. As I mentioned before our first session, these debates are mock debates, so called because the positions that I am expounding in this debate are not my own but I am trying to act as the devils advocate and set before Dr. Gerstner. Some of the classical arguments against Christianity that have been set forth through the ages and then Dr. Gerstner in his own inimitable fashion will respond to them. In our first session, we consider the question of truth and how we can have it.

And in this session Dr. Gerstner were going to get down.

Perhaps the most important single truth of biblical Christianity.

And that's the question of the existence of God.

I'm aware as you are that the Bible begins with the simple statement in the beginning God. There is no attempt at that point to prove the existence of God just proclaimed in the beginning God and then what's even more astonishing is that the first thing that set about God is that he creates the heavens and the earth.

And I also am aware in the history of civilization that for millennia that people if I may say unsophisticated people.

Prescientific people to large measure, accepted that introductory statement of Genesis as the truth of God, perhaps even uncritically, but we live on the other side. This side of what is been called the Enlightenment and is a historian yourself, you know that modern historians are saying were living in the post-Christian era and that the God hypothesis, which serves well during the dark ages when there was a grand challenge from science has now been all but dismissed to a religious sphere of life. Now we seem to have clear evidence that we don't need to appeal to God, to account for this universe. In recent months and over the past year or so we've seen the vast exploration space for the humble spacecraft and were getting more information daily about the origins of this universe that seem to suggest that this universe, thank you very much came in the bag without any assistance from some supernatural being that we call God.

So, in this day and age, why should anybody with any degree of scientific or philosophical sophistication. Dr. Gerstner still actually want to hold onto this antiquated idea of a supernatural being who created the world. The first thing outside question, the historicity of what you're saying about people today getting more more information about a universe which wasn't created by God as the old hypothesis entertain. I'd like to hear you tell me one item of new information about the universe which carries with it the knowledge that no God created it while we are certainly familiar. At least I'm a layman, when it comes to astrophysics and that something big, unfamiliar with The Big Bang Theory that on or about 15 billion years ago, give or take a couple of weeks. There was a previous this time and eternal condensation of all energy and all matter in the universe into one tiny infinitesimal point of singularity and that that exploded. And that has sent bits and fragments of that explosion and in the process of explosion generating so much energy and heat, and so on. That is actually creating as it was exploding it was creating new forms of energy and and new kinds of atoms in all of that that form the galaxies and the solar systems as we know it me that's a perfectly empirical explanation for the universe and that is my friend Carl Sagan says, was there any need to reach outside of the universe when we can see the ingredients the mix the stuff of which the universe is made. Coming from this point of singularity first thing you mention is very big bang theory and then you say associated with that is the idea that there was an eternity behind that now I know something about the big bang theory. As I'm sure every body listening here does, but I must not have been reading adequately in the scientific journals when I was told that this Big Bang theory somehow proved that the universe has been there from eternity did Carl Sagan say a thing like that. For example, well the point is that everything not that the universe as we now know it is been there for me but the principle that all of the energy and matter that exist now in dispersion through these vast reaches of the cosmos that one point in time. It was all condensed into one point in space. Okay 1.1 point than that, that this was there for eternity. When I wait a minute you see the one point in time I can follow. But what preceded that one point in time you suggest is eternity. Now where did anybody get the message along with the Big Bang or any other point of origin that before that was eternity, or that it came out of something which was there from all eternity. All I know is that there are scientists who believe that the universe as we now know it started with a big bang. Well, as you know, the author himself is retreated from that. But that's beside the point.

I'm no problem with the idea that there may have been a remote bag and had a good deal to do with the present condition of things. That's your saying that the sophisticated modern would realize that with that big bank was a demonstration that back of that was an eternity of lot of matter matter in that sin that condensed state of singularity. These people can demonstrate that there is an eternal matter matter and it may be in in in the form of energy. But the point is its whatever is was there all along ALL that this did was change the form in the structure.

Okay, then you are saying that there was back of this. Yes, I don't see any demonstration except the declaration that back of this was an eternal matter about our server that if you want to demonstration land.

Spell it out for you. I was just making sure.

Abigail, I would condescend idling a state that is going to be patronizing, but there had to be something to go blind.

Dr. said it had to be something before the Big Bang to go for the bank where lot was before is a concentration of energy concentration of energy into its point of singularity, everything that is now dispersed into the universe was once concentrated in one exceedingly dense masculine anybody say that that's something which gave birth to the Big Bang didn't exist a moment before the Big Bang occurred or something had to something that could've happened. Could it not a moment before that, as far as anything. Science knows I'm just checking this notion so prevalent today that whatever science says carries women a kind of implication of eternity and the non-necessity of DNA and are going to make statements like that are challenge me about statements like that. I just rather like to know if you have no problem with your Big Bang doesn't really. I don't know when it's proven or not proven, it just wouldn't matter to me whether it was or not, but when you suggest when you make the transition from a Big Bang to eternity in the eternity of matter. I take it there ought to be some sort of demonstration and not a sort of scientific throwing of its weight around. Well, I don't want to just throw weight around Dr. Gerstner and I and I hear the white feel the weight of the objections you're making now. Well thank insert. But my further question is, what's the matter with matter, why not at least talk to Lambright and eternal matter. My first point will be events that you are not proving the eternity of matter. You're just assuming it know you have no right to condescend and sort of looked down your academic nose at persons who don't affirm out of hand that matter is, excuse me, I don't want to be condescending in the Jordan sense Dr. Gerstner but let me give you my reason for that.

Condescend what I like. It had all right be granted.

There is such thing as matter now.

Okay, no dispute about that.

As long as you don't have time. Anything with it that I would disagree that's matter you can see it right all things that we okay with that. Proceed okay now we don't agree how long it's been here how it got here. It seems like well if you would be a reasonable demo we could come the easy agreement that I don't expect you. The letter elicits it so poorly disputed that okay I now question the existence of God. Okay is in dispute.

Not only for eternity and for yesterday, but for right now. In fact, that's the thing were discussing whether there exist now by God.

Now I said you want to assert the existence of God from all eternity. And I'm saying, why not just project backwards. The existence of that which we both agree exist now okay and will easily annoyed that I make.

Yeah, I'm going willing to go along with it all right why not just assume all right matter is the monetary that matters. The mother all right matter as a mother not going ahead with you but I'm just making the observation.

The only thing I'm gratuitously assuming with you is what matters, eternal, and I'm just reminding you, lest you get a little bit of the scientific arrogance of your spirit that science hasn't demonstrated that his cell and you have not shown in is when I willing, for the purposes of debate, to assume what you are more or less affirming and so on that matter is eternal. Okay now the burden of proof is on me. Yes, that there is still a God even if matter were eternal. Who is this gentleman that gentlemen] view. This man is perfectly willing to admit that he couldn't prove that matter was not eternal but he couldn't prove that God was the author of it and I think Thomas Aquinas was quite correct when he said so and I would like to try to prove to your Excellency the devil's representative that indeed, even if matter were eternal we would assume that it's like the matter we know today that shows, for example, intelligence now matter. As such, just existing something that we notice that the matter with which we are familiar does exhibit intelligence now would the devils advocate, grant that much about Gerstner that depends. We use this word intelligence. What we really mean by Welling mean that it shows that in this particular matter that were talking about. And there is evidence that it acts as if it knows what it's doing is very fond of a dandelion seed which spread out a little bit of an umbrella to be carried out by the wind to places other than where it originated. Now that's a very clever little device for accomplishing that purpose and I'm absolutely sure that that dandelion seed did not think that up. Nevertheless matter per se. In terms of the dandelion seed are millions of other illustrations which we have in the cosmonaut shell intelligence, which must've come from something other than matter. That's all I'm maintaining with respect to the specific instance and can you deny it you cited Leibniz is on my side as showing that it actually did this even on a very minimal level and ligands can easily be. Doesn't that assume that there is some nonmaterial factor until it finally.

This is your actually arguing.

Granting that you well, what did modern studies Dr. Gerstner indicate that our thinking and what we call our mind is simply the result of electrical responses and stimuli in the brain, and the neurons and so on.

Can we not reduce intelligence to physical reality is I say want you mentioned there can we not reduce intellectual elements to physical reality and so on. Their euros. Recognizing the difference yourself, reduce it to.

This is something other than here's matter which in and of itself, by definition, is not a rational entity, but here is an intellectuality associated with it, which therefore could not complicate from matter itself so that we can keep our eye on the issue of the existence of God number one and number two because even the strongest ours like him to be the best devils advocate that I could be even I can't make believe that I can conceive of physical intelligence all right and let's go on. Okay, I know. Okay now we God when a dandelion in each other sorts of things which show intelligent, an indication that they must've come from some sort other than matter where assuming remember as a gratuitous assumption that matters, eternal but matter always shows as far as we know it intelligence which is not native to matter itself.

You see what that implies that statement I just mentioned. Wherever we see matter and even if it existed eternally. Presumably that would be intelligence in it. That is not native to it and I would ask what would be the source, and I will. This would indicate that business doctors would be fair to summarize what you're saying that this is the old classical teleological argument. The argument from design you find is I don't anything intelligence we see what seems to be purpose and intent selectivity. Even Immanuel Kant acknowledged he found it very difficult to escape the conclusion that there is an intelligent architect for this universe right glad to meet a theistic devil, by the way, let's wear this because we have intelligence here this. Remember my lost my Chief Executive Officer and my domain is also exceedingly dead and he said he knows very well that I like you a dozen amenities or intelligent incidents convey that he's also exceedingly wicked. That's his major and may be what you're doing here is giving a case for the creation of the world by my boss rather than yours because we see intelligence, but we also see this intelligence. Making a lot of mistakes. We see all kinds of evil in this world which Sulla tells us if there's an intelligent cause it's one who isn't perfect in his intelligence and the kind of being that you want God to be, you are tacitly conceding to me. I think that there may be an intelligent being back of God, but it could be satanic rather than divine because there is so much evil in the world and that's when I arrived, and that of the let anything not granted this much that your boss the devil does indeed love that. That's good news to him that there is evil in the world and he'll promote as much of it as he can but this is the thing about your boss he himself is a being who is not eternal.

Now I know you are dedicated to lying.

But remember I got witnesses a year. That devil is an evil being who came into existence himself, so he couldn't have been the ultimate source of everything he had to have a sorts himself.

Why well as I say we we we got back with matter you admit matter had been a source nicer than any of his allegedly on the human is that there had to be something prior to matter is intelligent right why we haven't proven that Satan my boss isn't that intelligence why couldn't Satan be that intelligence.

The thing about Satan is that if you're an Orthodox devil now and will admit something only under pressure because I know you can't be trusted on the tell the truth normally you will admit, will you not that your boss is a being who came into existence in time, not of his own origination while you lie.

Are you why will admit that that's the definition of I dabble looking at is a good addition of the devil by Christians and by theists who believe that the devil was created by God saying this God that you're talking about sounds very much like my boss if he is the architect for this mess down here. This filled with evil. Why so I attributed to God or why why don't I just assume that your God that you're saying is the creator is evil. All right, let's put it this way, we granted now.

There is a divine.

I'm not talking about this as a creator, but a divine creator and the reason learn a little bit of the dilemma here is because we haven't looked at that creator very closely so may take a little time here, but there's a great deal of good in this universe.

Are we prepared to grant that I take that silly little dandelion to turn it after all it had service purpose and Elaine serves a favor and is now in all that okay I manifestly things are geared to invent things there but there's a lot than this being if we are talking about him now since you're willing to talk about him.

The this would be the source of all good. I have agreed that that everything good comes from him but I still not sure why everything bad doesn't come from him well. Because of this fact. If he by nature is good if we can just lie not appeased by nature good and bad because of the fact they're capable of doing good and bad in your intelligent all were trying to find here's an intelligent architect whose more intelligent than you are more intelligent than I am.

Maybe his goodness is greater than your goodness and maybe his wickedness. You know, maybe he's like the proverbial little boy when he's good he's very very good and what is baddies or here's the thing.

When we let that's fairly hypothetically sound reasoning, but when we get back to the cosmos itself. Look at our to to the nature of this being in doubt, just hypothesize that he may be evil as well as good and maybe more evil or more good has a case and that when you look at him as the author of matter and look at matter.

In general, it is geared for the benefit of man, not for the destruction of man. That's a good God who obviously if he is omnipotent and evil couldn't get his kicks out of tormenting his creatures, but we can see the universe is in geared that way it's meant to benefit the universe. I know you're always thinking what about the harlequins and that pestilence, and all that type of thing I'll be willing to take that up if you're willing to go with me that the fundamental nature of the cosmonauts were talking about this matter that you began discussing what is fundamentally geared to benefit us can see that and I'll tell you what else can see.concede that you've demonstrated in this short period of time that there has to be something eternally intelligent and an architectural unit ran good and that would certainly justify a claim to a creator that there's a lot more to be said about that and a lot of it that we know about it and argue about is from the content of the Bible. Well, I'm not going to the Bible. Now I know you're not but maybe what we need to do since our time is up for this session is to lay the rest of this on the table for a while and look ahead to that time when we can look at the picture of the trustworthiness of that book that gives so much information that you I'm I allowed to get in the final word guessing around when you get one out in a way not I would rather insist that we can know without any Bible that there is a creator that he is basically good that something has gone wrong with the universe. We haven't had time to discuss just from nature.

And if he actually revealed himself in this book were going to talk about that would make it all look clear no more authoritative but all the clear and are you willing to go along with that military was Dr. RC Sproul, in his long time friend and mentor Dr. John Gerstner RC had immense admiration and respect for Dr. Gerstner in the that's why he was more than willing to give Dr. Gerstner the last word. Glad you joined us today for the Friday addition of Renewing Your Mind. We web in the what we've just heard is part of a five-part series that we call silencing the devil.

It's a mock debate and its portable resource offer that there were presenting to you today.

If you'll call us at 800-435-4343, we would be glad to send this to you along with Dr. Sproles sweeping overview of apologetics called defending your faith in 32 lessons RC surveys the history of apologetics and demonstrates that reason and science are allies in defending their historical truth claims of Jesus Christ. So again with your donation of any amount. We will send this to you.

It's a bundled resource our phone numbers 800-435-4343 but if you prefer you can give your gift and make your request online@renewingyourmind.org. Our goal over the past couple of days is to bring up some of the most common arguments against biblical truth. Dr. Gerstner is given some great ammunition to fight the lies we hear every day in our culture about the Christian faith. If were nothing more than cosmic accidents are wives really don't matter, our joys, pains, sacrifices and triumphs last for a moment before disappearing forever. But God's word refutes this devastating lie since we were made by a wise creator for a purpose. Every moment of our lives appears credible value because every moment matters.

Eternity and that's what we'll focus on next week as we share several sessions from this year's look international conference theme was right now accounts for to make plans to join us here for Renewing Your Mind