Understaning the Mormon Journey: Do Theology Interview, Pt. 2

Your answer right and him and firefighters recently met Thomas and I went on the do theology podcast where our friend Jimmy Howard interviewed us. We put it to us was that he wanted to ask you some blunt questions and and indeed she did.

I shared with us the recording so that we can also publish it to our podcast and so here comes part two.

Hope you enjoy. How should you guys understand your baptism when you baptized Matthew night you were baptized at eight.

It was later need to talk to that point a little bit but also often when I hear stories of when Latter Day Saints Baptizing their kids.

It's like they just knew there was cake and ice cream afterwards.

That's about all that the new did you just actually know what was going on or was it just is overdoing that I don't know what you set out my comments.

My story little bit. I felt like well if this requirement to get to heaven so not going to do it and I kind of had some kind of little understanding that your sins are washed away going to talk but this cleansing understands but I don't think I quite understand gravity of like this idea by pulling on Christ's John's baptism in the Christian baptism is is dying to Christ rising what Christ your you're really committing your witnessing that Christ is already done something for you and to you and that you're willing to sacrifice even all of yourself to for him to really understand the gravity of what you know to lease under the obviously they still believe something should commit your entire life to at the time so as a guy came to understand later in as you talk about one of her episodes. I read later and you believe that your baptized is C if you're not already a literal descendent of tribe of Israel but your blood is change your baptized into Israel at blood and I was like that's cool but that's like.

That's like one of the key ways to show that Mormonism is very different from Jehovah's Witnesses that they nixed blood transfusions. The automatic lectures usually go to the water directly into the kiss is not the patriarchal blessing you find out if you are you from a Manasseh is that Ken will come from to yeah that's part of it. For the most part most states are particularly you know lighter skin states are going to most people who are Native American or South American or Hispanic are going to be the majority. There is one person initially was Jewish. He was the tribe of Judah that we're just not snowing that I did not understand what I was doing. I have some vague memories of going to the bishops interview prior to my baptism and my parents being there and feeling anxious because I wasn't able to answer the questions that I was being asked, with the right answers that they were looking for but somehow I made it through anyway and my dad baptized me and when. So around the age we had a membership to think it's probably there anymore, but it was the Northwest multipurpose center over to Rose Park and it was like there was a swimming pool there is like a gym and then we would go there and swim and my sister and I took swimming lessons there. So member going there with my dad and swimming and then we would change you don't go sit in the sauna and then the other old LDS men sit in the sauna and it was kinda like I know maybe feel like part of the men's club.

I just get upset there with the guys you and I felt like when I went to the tabernacle. He baptized it was sort of like that with 102 locker room and changed and came out and there were a bunch of people from bunch kids from my school there was like a stake baptism. It wasn't just our ward, such as letting go to church with that I went to school with consumption and wanted that armor and in particular will mention his name, but I do know he was all yes he was there getting baptized is kind of a jerk at school so I was surprised like that is like. I guess that's what baptism is about, but I didn't have any kind of concept of sand.

I knew that I was being told that this was the age of accountability. This was the age of which I would start to be accountable for my sins, and that didn't really make sense to me like focus. Why am I being baptizes. There's really nothing yet to wash away, but again it I kind of conceived of it is like joining the men's club brightness we all do what I've read on baptisms which I don't know if it's if there's a section doctrine and covenants. It talks about that I can now know I can remember where I read that, but it basically weights presented is kind of like okay parents if you don't get your kids baptized at eight. You're responsible for their sense that they go on to commit from that point forward is kind of how I've understood that is it from a section doctrine and covenants.

It talks about when to be baptized. For where's the words.

The original source work on that. It's in the book of Mormon right. Matthew talks about the age of eight damage on the age of accountability in public so that it's just the same area of the book Mormon. It seems like it's it's either an Mormon or Moron I can remember which. But it talks about that. Michael is to call this out on our progress a few times and even thinking about infant baptism.

You're worthy of how if you think about that and that it lays out the age for the age of accountability.

Okay, I guess what I was reading was before must been D&C 68. Their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old and receive the laying on of hands, and they should also teach their children to pray and to walk uprightly before the Lord, but there's something I'd read so here it is.

It's in verse 25 of that same section as much as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ, the son of the living God and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost of the laying on of hands when eight years old. The sin be upon the head of the parents Marine that think and what makes that baptizing your kids pretty selfish. Okay well I'm getting this off of my account number thorny in the water creek like that's that's gonna rough so yeah and in you said your baptized at the tabernacle Temple Square.

Paul said was that like tabernacles of the place with a huge organ or what would fit. It was okay that is the big domed building in the hands at least back then in the southwest corner there's kind of a basement door you can go down in the baptistery list on the housing say I've been in there several times just in there a few weeks ago, listening to organ recital actually in case you didn't know there was a secret basement section so all – about that one of the sister missionaries next on their obviously baptism is just one of the many ways within the Latter Day Saints religion that people are earning their righteousness.

It's a works righteousness religion. In that sense it's anti-Christian. I'm just wondering again going back thinking of your mindset back then were you consciously aware of earning your righteousness was that something that you are consciously doing when you were living that life absolutely yeah my mom especially with someone who struggled for all of her life to feel like she had done enough to merit the celestial kingdom. And it's something that bothered her to the very end so you know growing up and in my parents house with her expressing that feeling whenever she felt like she had done something or failed to do something that should've done that I grew up with the with the sense that had to earn it for sure and and that included making sure that you repented properly for every sin that you committed email on a daily basis you thinking back when you meal at night to what I do today. What I cannot do that. I should've done and you trying to make sure your asking God for forgiveness for every one of those things.

And if there's something that you've done that so serious that that Tina requires confession to the bishop you're making sure you're doing that on a regular basis as well. So definitely felt that way asked him yeah I just remember really struggling like, and in kind of baked into the LDS mindset.

This idea that if you obey God will bless you, and so you know I felt like a solid is having success, baptisms, and if I go with happening for me and I thought it was because I was just nothing I wasn't paying enough and I spy goes on, accosted the hamster wheel of trying to reach this level of righteousness to just falling off the hamster wheel completely and having to drag myself back into it, like I just couldn't do it anymore and there were always passages of the book of Mormon and buy it at all levels in the Bible very well, but passages in the book of Mormon there. That sounds very biblical to a lot of Protestants, like the acting as a people.

Benjamin gives a really long discourse as I need five-ish American and at the end of it, they can all bow before you know they like. See the make a covenant with God and their you know the plea for forgiveness and Dell have this kind of a born-again experience and forgiven of their sins not always just like really never always really attracted me because you know it's like man I wish I was you cannot experience all the time like because of that experience. It often sin again in your back to square one. It feels like, and so I just always felt like you were never quite good enough and ending a lot of Latter Day Saints. We talked about this over summer episodes like something a lot of the way that I just kind of like, you know, kind of like I do not worry about it is a stay well gosh that's your best your best and that's that's way to get over the idea perfect, but reality. You can't just do your best when it comes or crisis righteousness. I think they know that they don't want to admit it, so they just as another shelf items that while perfect of ski trying to get enough. But there's no real assurance, you know it's his hedge themselves and to assuage those that guilt your cost and trying to get rid of.

What is the Moron I 1030 to deny yourself of all ungodliness. That's more than do your best.

That's that's be perfect yeah and it says some people interpret the past differently. I think I try to looking creamy so this talks about that where they talked about in doing what I could find in a caribou set up at the risk of saying it's is basically something entirely assistant in baptism endowments priesthood obey the commandments Collier Lear etc. etc. etc. there's a way I can do this to you I was doubting I like how I like to reset the boss we have Jackson Washburn on the talk about the passage in particular given on an article on that passage. So if listeners want to hear us discuss that in depth was that episode. On the other by this podcast, but he points out that you know that the second part of that passage. To paraphrase a connect points out that it if you become perfected in Christ you know Wise deny the power of God right something like that so she did try to make the case that while it's ultimately know Christ and in his merits that you relying on fully through that, you know, deny yourself small ungodliness process which you would say is sanctification. You know the problem with that is that you have other passages in LDS scripture like D&C 130 sure the verse, but it is law irrevocably decreed in heaven upon which all blessings are predicated whatever you receive is a blessing from God comes from obedience to a law that's tied to that blessing. So obedience and perfect obedience is the only thing that possibly could result in exultation of the celestial kingdom if you take that passage and document covenants 130 seriously and we would agree this is not our own obedience. That gets is either so yeah yeah that's it's so wild. Think about the pressure that's on the Latter Day Saints to look like the phrase he used Paul to earn it because he just can't yeah yes we will this be a blunt conversation so I noted up with the blunt and blunt conversation I've never heard this question asked go back to your peak self peak Mormon. Did you envision your celestial future and if so, would that look like know so I never pictured myself having a planet where multiple wives are reminding like that it's like to be unique cards. Do not let your mind go there. I was too focused on on trying to be perfectly obedient. I didn't have time to imagine that I actually would bleach it because I was to just too much of despair that I couldn't but I will say this I did have a very strange conversation with my wife, who at the time was my fiancée and I'm I'm surprised she married me. After the conversation. So after my mission and we were we were meeting in a different building for our ward meetings than we typically met and because they were remodeling hours so we were sharing a building normally share were building with with two or three other words, anyway, with that we were sharing we were moved into a board building that was Artie full so our elders quorum and our high priest quorum would need together on Sundays, rather than separately because we have limited space and so I found out pretty quickly that of an elder scoring high priest quorum. They speculate a lot and they used to speculate about what are we going back to Jackson County, Missouri to form Zion one a week when it when it again and bring back polygamy is a requirement. Those types of speculative questions were with were often asked and so in my young mind I thought Wolf I guess polygamy is something that's expected to come back at some point you know so I was on a drive with my my wife my fiancé at the time out by Herrmann Utah which back then was farmland but now is all built up houses and we reckon down the middle of nowhere and stopped in looking at the stars and the moon and whatnot and having a conversation and know she is convert to Mormonism of you know, maybe five or six months. At that time and I just asked her what would you do if they ever brought it back in about back polygamy and she's like well you better not even think about it. Wow part of the rule right yet she has to give you permission so it is you know I had. But I had no right so but I am surprised the stick. She married Brandon a conversation that I was interested.

I was curiously how will that play out if they brought it back.

Yeah for sure that you did you ever envision yourself as the sovereign. What I saw. I mean, you know a lot of LDS that I think I would've ability to. You never feel like you're going to ever since know you never not. You're never going to supersede our be independent of God the father in some sense even though you will be no inheriting all of his power like his glory and affections and attributes do you like that as as an exalted being a son like you can say that you know because he's when he got you there.

So how are you gonna know so I don't need you more and better.

The noise felt like it is. Cannot you give a business partner starting out, you know, is a go up all your your business guy in the red is downright being in the red is bad having a black is good right okay so you're you know you're in the red. In some components as a art that will help you out. You know how do you ever say if your business somehow makes more money to get his give you all about it, even if that were possible.

So I felt I felt like you know I was always going to be submissive to submit to God in some sense somehow, and we just recorded an episode with the wall of… Because the this hierarchical structure of God's so they'll be initially observed. But yeah I just I just long for this idea of the and I still do.

You know, but it's a different perspective now, but I just long just Don West the world you know what sin with my own no shortcomings and was going to fail all the time and just wanting a family and I was, wanted a family life. So the prospect of having a wife and having children in heaven was really no what I really liked but but I also dislike the fact of you know, the more we learn about God, the more a word about what I would become anything so yeah I did I did about it a lot, but that same time I felt like pole where you just also bogged down in the quagmire of seeds in your failures like well that's a nice pipedream but I don't know if I would. I was not like well even after I learned about the second is a well, maybe. Maybe if I can become a general authority maybe at second I don't know. And then maybe then I'll have the assurance now so they were there were times when we would sing and Zachary like if you could hide to: which is a song that is the kind that touches on that that idea where I would have momentary thoughts of and I guess that would be great, but it will immediately be followed by but man, I'm so far from perfect. Never get there because you mentioned polygamy get asked this to did you did you think that those who are in the celestial kingdom going to be half they would have to practice polygamy to populate the planet that they inherit. Did you ever go that far in your thinking at that time because that's that's only that I've always thought about was like okay well they talk about heavenly father and heavenly mother. But there's more than one heavenly mother.

Did you ever think through that as a latter-day St. yeah I think I thought about it I didn't and and really my my family in general didn't have a very positive view of of polygamy. I mentioned my my great great grandmother who crossed the plains of the handcart heard her daughter had a very negative experience with polygamy in the late 1800s, abandonment and domestic abuse.

The kind of thing and so polygamy in my family was not very well looked upon and I did. I grew up around when I was up until the time I was nine. We lived down the street from from a duplex where some of the Kingston wives lived one of the big, polygamous families there in Utah and and you know even limited to the suburbs.

We would see polygamist families at the grocery store and I coming so it was kind of all around us, but my sense of growing up latter-day St. tied to the mainstream LDS church in Utah was that most people looked upon polygamy is kind of like maybe maybe kind of the way Christians sometimes look at look at Mormonism as as a call to write.

I member my my mom's cousin would come over and should she.

She did get kinda slept in.

Occasionally, she was as a single woman and so she would get swept into going to meetings with with some of the polygamist sex and she would come in talk to my parents about it and remember they would have a very strenuous debates and in kind arguments with her about the doctrine and practice related her inability polygamy and and I member overhearing those conversations in our home and so we didn't really have very positive view of the polygamy dimension. The him hide a call love him. What I like to break out from my Mormon library it in my basement tucked away in my storage room I like to break out the Mormon hymnal will have guests over who are familiar with Mormonism and that one of the hymns like to show them his praise to the man did did you worship Joseph Smith.

I have said that for me. Joseph Smith became an idol and I mean that in every sense because my religion was all tied up with whether or not she actually experienced and did the things that he claimed to do and so there was a time in my life. Even after my first faith crisis where I spent a majority of my time trying to run down answers to questions I had around him and his teachings and there came a point where I just realized you know what I I am focusing far more on Joseph Smith and I am on Jesus Christ and recognize that that he was an idol in my life.

Yeah, I guess I just relation to the song. I wouldn't have said I would've argued like most you that we were worshiping and singing that song, but but she did become an idol in my life. Hard to get away from the words on that page because yet you read through that.

It's like house is not worship but what's funny because you like so never really bothered me because you know you could just say praise based on hard jobs. But in in the French version on the mission is is more evident to me that my nerves a bit as a first line you know roughly translated his face. The man elevates glory to him who saw God the father I never really got her saying I was like so so intense is that like glory to him like is God only gives Gloriana that was kind of revenue wrong way but I never immediately obviously noticed that it's crazy to Joseph Smith or that they worship him as a God, but Bianca McGriff because it is his jealous mess experience and his teachings are so foundational to think that it's it's as crucial to accept Joseph's testimony in his teachings as it is to accept the Bible and to accept Jesus as your Savior like it's it's it's it's all part of the deal. Oh, if you reject what Justman said you basically rejecting salvation. So he's just as crucial in a no and a lot of times for latter-day Saints will bring up the fact that there are just as many meetings where people just testify about how they love Joseph Smith, and his faithfulness. Small 14-year-old boy who know who has vision and then you know the attack on Jesus at the end and I feel like that's mean hyperbolic with that, but there were instances where their entire sacrament meeting lessons about Joseph Smith and like there's hardly any mention of Jesus or of the atonement during that so it's natural but unfortunate. I think a lot of letters recognize that themselves and so a lot of their more recent no general conference has been focusing a lot on grace what is grace how to grace Solomon trying to determine shipment. I don't know how they can really become an Orthodox Christian church with all of the temple ordinances for the dad and all those other things still see them becoming no matter how big the font size for Jesus Christ becomes in the logo or how much they put you know the Christus or whatever the name of that statue is on their app.

Yeah, there still obviously a major major conflict there. You surprise me Matthew in your story when you said that you liked McConkie in a McConkie is kind of a firebrand depending on what circles your enemy and he was very bold and Lotta things he said in these pretty polarizing.

I think in the Mormon community here either.

All in like yes he was. He was going for it and I agree or he crossed some lines kind of more like modern Brigham Young. In a lot of ways you start talking this missionaries or some about Brigham Young and the crazy things that he said missionaries are kind of in a weird spot because they are on the one hand, they need to defend these guys who were supposedly speaking from God and with authority, on the other hand, they said things that clearly disagree with what they believe. So can you cannot put yourself back in that missionary name tag and explain to me how you process that with Brigham Young McConkie or whoever it may have been where you're in a situation of having to defend, but also speaking against yeah so well it's not to be honest like an admission that I don't really deal a lot of content but I felt like was contradictions are trying to reconcile contradictory statements joining I got to like him across me on your mission been great sister yeah I like you know back then. I still felt like the church was still very clearly state where the church and I think there were talks even around in general conference is not time or they're still saying that because we have the authority that's where the true church. If you don't have the space.

The party don't have proper ordinances of baptism dominance confirmation they need for eternal life. So like that's that's a clear demarcation you have it or you don't. So I felt like, you know, maybe McConkie's berries old language answering thing is something so I disagree with them on a little bit like his Mormon doctrine. He said that basically the practice of psychology as part of the church, the devil, and so I was, like, well, I don't like quite a group that you have stored his duty help, but you have in terms of like Brigham Young at. I remember reading things about him before my mission. Nothing is said about throwing a javelin through an adult ice chest and all this other stuff, blood atonement, but I kind of just chalk it up like well we learn line upon line and precept upon precept, that's one thing that I think the letter states still rely upon and they say well you know sometimes they're there seeking after knowledge as to like feeling around in a dark room and you might get a flicker of light here and there, they latch onto it and I still try to feel around it so don't go say things are necessarily true, but you know that's why.

Over time the church will become more true.

I guess you know, in theory, so you know any of those those ideas. It came from themselves as men, not as profits but can you filtered out.

Hopefully, just maybe, how I would've looked at it and where my where my questioning mind went Matthew after my mission. When discussing contradictions online with other latter-day Saints and somebody would throw out that line upon line are the kind of fumbling around in the dark. In my mind went okay so how are they different than me. You know why.

Why should I follow them effect if they're doing the same thing I'm doing all my mission journey to your question, I remember a specific instance sitting on my bed and began working through my goal to read all of the standard works that included the official declarations at the end of the pearl of great price right within the document comes across a present Member but there considered part of the standard works part of LDS cannon and I remember reading through them and course I read through official declaration one you know where polygamy was done away with. As it is a practice within the LDS church before had studied it through an and in seminary, but I remember reading through that and thinking is having a?

Why if it's not something we need to practice today but it was once taught as something that was essential for exultation and why isn't it practiced today and now why would there be something withheld, that is, it is an essential, because the venue if you run down that line of thinking too far. You, you end up with will the LDS church that in some sense placing its members within a state of apostasy because they're not practicing something that is supposed to have been practiced CI member that that experience.

Specifically, and in other contradictions.

I remember when I came home from my mission and then moved out here and then got married. I was working at the insurance company I work for now in a in a clerk capacity and I would have to go down and stand up the mail from the mail room for appeals department and I would spend some time talking to our security guards. We had some of the security guards that worked that day shifts during the week and one of them was named Charlotte really kind older African-American woman. We became friends and talk a lot and start time of religion and I gave her book of Mormon.

I sent the missionaries her way and she was. She looks to be progressing towards being baptized but then had a conversation with her pastor about it and he gave her a bunch of what I would've turned at the time was anti-Mormon material that he printed off of the Internet and she brought in that stack of materials and gave it to me with the book of Mormon back in told me she she couldn't follow the road that I was asking her to follow. I try to make the case to radio that is because some things on the Internet doesn't make it true.

Anybody can put anything on the Internet and the anti-Mormons are can put all kinds of stuff out there, but I took the stack and started looking through it and started reading what was claimed within the various printouts and articles and started to run things down and a lot of it was related to the Blacks and the priesthood issue, which is the other the other official declaration which I never was comfortable with and started trying to think about that through her eyes. How that would've been received by her. I didn't tell her about it in our conversations.

I knew about it that I specifically withhold it. I think I probably was aware that that would probably be something she would want to know but I did not tell her this question six or whatever not. Discussion one right so I didn't tell her about it and so certify. Think about what must that have been like. From her perspective, to not have these conversations with me and and and trusted me and become the kind of became friends and then she finds out that what I'm trying to teach her the church. I'm trying to bring her into one time viewed her as less worthy and that really bothered me and so I started to run down like some of things that Brigham Young said about that because they were contained in that that packet of materials and at first I thought there's no way he really said these that I went home and and pulled out my copy of the discourse of Brigham Young and found that he did in fact say these things so that very challenging on, then this gets to know me maybe difficult thing that talk about, but the people that you ran into when you were latter-day Saints who you influenced so not just the charlottes that you ran into the you had a conversation with him. They didn't convert but those who either did convert or work because of your influence. They deepened their allegiance to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. How do you process that now knowing that you were influential in their lives to submerge them deeper into a false religion. How how do you think through that now I think about it pretty often because I'm Facebook friends with a lot of people for my mission and you know none of them have specifically reached out to me about a couple of couple of missionaries I served with averaged out and talk to me about the podcast because I'm not. I'm not shy about sharing RSO's on my own wall, but none of the Hungarian people that I know I've reached out and talk to me about the podcast, so don't know if they see it, but I hope that they do. I don't try to push it on them.

But if somebody for one of them will reach out to me I would.

I would deftly have a conversation with them yet. So in terms of my mission is all tested like you know just in Europe in general people are very unbelieving general. So I really struggled you would just get to people's doors so no looking back I miss you and I felt really curious to get it now. In some sense, I felt like I will I let God down we know as still bleeding latter-day St., but I still I remember us to express my thought created in Ascot if my mission was okay and I felt like he was warm fuzzy thing that my mission was okay science, Arcana wrestled looking back now, so there is one man who rebaptized views have Artie set for baptism, and so we were kind is teaching the new member must use really old and I thought I just think about him a lot worse yet, where he is now pretty sure he's past is used quite old and frail at the time.

There's another girl that we taught and I think I left before she was asked to baptize is my first area and had a really might opinion prank on the my trainer and told me to teach about the law of chastity my very broken French to a girl. It was basically our age then, and I was very embarrassing word yet is that at some point, but some point she had health issues, we count just lost track of her.

So nobody? Yeah, so there's one other person that we basically talk scratching baptized blast area and I been wanting to contact him and talks into the canon let him know about my faith journey but doesn't do so doesn't really bother me and how much success but I do think about. In general, does all the times I for testimony on the streets, people, and maybe don't number my name on my face or whatever, but like you know just putting out the world. Something that you know now is, is correct. I mean it in one sense it's as is following unregenerate people, we sin and all kinds of ways so you can't beat yourself up too much. I think the sense of being no luck single when when I do that white light try to always go back yeah I just have to remember that I did what I did because I thought that's what I thought is what God wanted me to do and I just praise God and thank him out of that truth and and thankfully I have talked to when I came out and said that a couple of my companions, mission have told me that they also left church and I really and I was like us great. I really wanted to cling to Jesus you know I don't don't don't give up religion altogether. That's what I really afraid of, and in sync consumer thing happen to people in high school that I was really super friends with but I knew kids 560 came out and told me that they'd also loved the church and so yeah that's why I'm just I'm hoping also that don't listen to our testimonies are Facebook posts. Whatever and have lots of friends as Don walked me yet, you know. I posted so please don't see it or they just meet my am I closer ever. But I think it was at once of the K from your block yet think you're cool yeah just kind of plan of what meth he was and I I've taken a lot of comfort. This is a former latter-day St. Paul's words that he writes at the beginning of chapter 9 of Romans as I'm speaking the truth in Christ, Emmaline, my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart for I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh, I have similar feelings towards latter-day St. friends and family that I know.

That's why I do what I do with the podcast and I hope that it it it lands for four people. I hope that that God uses it to draw people to to his son. But I also trust in the sovereignty of God, and I recognize that there were many people that I met on my mission to even even though some of them were LDS helped move me further in the direction of accepting Christ alone for my salvation and understanding that that's that's where our salvation lies in Christ alone and so and I trust that God is sovereign and ends knows what he is doing a mental pause, we wrap up to get imagine tonight after dinner.

You could sit down with your former peak Mormon self would you say to that person.

How would you go about having a conversation with that person low would be your tactics.

It was for me being in Utah. So many of my conversations are people who are all in.

And those are really difficult conversations for me so if for no one else's help but my own.

How would you go about that conversation with your former self love forever. My case it's catchy because you know we know. I know my thoughts where my feelings with time and I think that's fine. Customize it to yourself that's fine.

Sure I would kind of appeal to doubts, guilt and the feeling that I felt like I was never going to live up to what I believed what I wanted to achieve. I would ask myself on my former bleeding sulfide say what if you could have peace like lasting peace. What if you could truly feel forgiven, even though you sin every day still going to mess up what if you could have that feeling and assurance that we know that Christ has secured your eternal life. But would that because that's what I that's my desire and if I could never really saw how can appeal to that and and I would also ask some questions about like how I know who Jesus really is, what kind of person he is and why it's important that he is who he is because I is A see you talk about how Jesus is God. Okay, what is empty and we talked about that I forget if it was Aaron Jackson but we talked about that a lot of times all this just say those words, they don't really ponder what that really needs they just say Jesus is the son of God or that is God, but they don't want to go then or why it's really that important because we think of just God is just something supernatural stay great.

That's about it. But we don't think of him is like is he changing God or an unchanged if he changes that still making God you know and Ellie Seibel, the changing God when you really got these issues.

Yeah, I want to. God doesn't change internally. God is uncreated, who doesn't have a superior to him tolerable, but he creates all things. One has all power and might glory and who has everything in the polyps and plans on everything is latter-day St. it feels like it kind of feels like your your playing cosmic diced sometimes.

Like everything just seems to like know we talked about God having a plan sometimes, but the most part it's like about obedience, you obey God will bless you and it feels like you're just not really in control and so like pulsing. I would just I would just talk to myself about how you thinking of a true peace and assurance of salvation by trusting Christ and what he did alone and also that that God has got everything in his hands, and God is completely sovereign and that's why we can trust and doesn't change doesn't moment to moment. He doesn't learn he doesn't grow he doesn't regress her progress to digress these costings complete and sure rock that we can rest our state trust and that's the God we should trust and think that's that's kind of the route, I would go with myself because I wanted something like that. Something I could really grasp on to say no you in my shortcomings and I and you out better weeks, more speaks something. Grasp on to suggest that's that's what I can at least hold onto as my assurance down with Matthew hundred percent. When I first came out of the LDS church asserted asked and then and really start understand the gospel of grace asserted asked myself what would I would I share with my younger self was a question that is difficult when the tackle because I went through a lot of years of study and trying to work things out from a Mormon perspective. And there's a lot of ground. We can cover you can you can really go into LDS history were were go deep in the doctrine and I just kinda landed of the place where it was like nothing. If I had a chance to speak with herself and the question was real because I wanted to know if you would like to stay if the LDS missionaries knock at my door. It wasn't just hypothetically but if I talk to younger me because they knocked on my door I would be talking to the younger me so I landed where I would share the gospel of grace is so critical for Latter Day Saints to understand something that their teachings don't allow them to understand. I heard many times in fast and testimony meetings growing up from both my peers as teenagers and and adults. The statement you know I don't know where I would be without the restored gospel in the probably be no drunk somewhere they would put themselves in some scenario that involved sin and you know Latter Day Saints often say things that are very similar to the rhetorical interlocutors that Paul response to them in the chapters of Romans in a westerly specialist and all we wanted an estimate Latter Day Saints doing enough. If you believe in grace. That is just a free gift was gonna stop you from just sitting on you want because that comes from a place where in their heart.

They believe that their attempts at obedience are getting them there and are keeping them from standing and it comes it also comes from a place of of frustration is Matthew and I both know because also deep in their hearts they know that their attempts at obedience and that that living without center not coming to fruition. They're not getting there and so I was sure the gospel of grace with my younger self.

That's good because it can be overwhelming because all the difference designers you talk about how God doesn't have a body you talk about how we didn't actually exist in the been some preexistence that families are forever how we don't need temples. I mean there's just like an endless list of things I can be talked about and lovely both highlighted through some core issues of the here and now is all that other stuff was come later. Right now we need some like you have to teach them systematic theology from the get-go. Even though it's really tempting, especially for someone like me except I got other stuff much wrong here, but but I think you are getting the heart of the issue probably seems to be wise and let everything else happen in time. That's really how it happened for you. You guys when you were drawn by the Lord to belief is that just one by one over the course of years that stuff changed that just it FALLS away one by one, but that understanding of of you know I can I can trust in what Jesus Christ did on my behalf, and understanding the cross and what was done there, and what was accomplished once and for all. That's that. That was the greatest change that took place in my heart was his understanding. Okay estate is not dependent on me. God is going to ultimately make me perfect and sanctify me. But that's not it's not on me to make that happen. Amen. Yeah, it's something I need to work on because I feel like this present LDS pasty set of logical arguments not always easy to truth and you know I think I used logical arguments to help me come out of the church in all the contradictions that historical issues, but that doesn't bring you to faith in Christ you know that you just to showing the church has issues contradictions is not enough LDSbeChristbutarestillyearninghostilethirstyouknowforpieceofsparsesourcingtoknowwhoGodwas,likewhoIwaspatientandisasflatsilicosisdragdowntomykneesasIgotIdon'tifyou'reat.IrememberprayingasIgotnoIdon'tappeartonoteasereallygoingtobelievewhateveryouwantandIjustwantyoutorescuethis.WhatyousavemebecauseI'msoconfused,somuchindoubtknowthemasyouhelpandI'mlockedinatrustanythingIdolikeisatthatmomentthatyouknowtheGodgotrescuedandandthat'sandthat'shard.Youknow,it'shardtoreallysharethatwithLatterDaySaints.Justbecausehowdoyousharesomethingsopersonalthattheyfeelthattheybarredhatsyou'dlikeone,andinthepsychknowyoudon'tunderstandlikeit'sit'slikealifesecuredjustlikeyouroldself.Spiegelrippedoutoftownbutanincompleteforgivenessisaconceptthat'snotevenanoptionintheMormonworldview.Sotryingtoexplaintothemthatsomethatsomethingisavailabletothemthatthey'vetheirwholelife.Considerjustisn'tevenanoptioniswildthatyoumentionedmissionariescomingtoyourdoor.I'mcuriouswhenyourunintomissionariesorwhoeveryouenduptalkingtohisLatterDaySaintsduecurrentLatterDaySaints.Doyoufindthatyouhavemorecredibilityorlesscredibility,sinceyourexmostdotheydotheyseewhatyouknowwhatyou'retalkingaboutthesetobeinorzolikeclothyoursonofperdition,soI'mnotcannottrustanythingyouhavetosay.Ithinklesscredibilitythat'sthat'sachallengebecausethere'stheviewthatwillshewouldn'tofleftifyoureallyunderstood.That'sright.WhatIteachingsareIseethatonMichaelWilderstuffallthetime.Likewhenhehasanintervieworsomething.Hewasobviouslyverymuchandverylegitimatelyanditbutpeoplestillcalmandsayallyoujustneveryounevergotit.HismomtaughtatBYUUtah.Yeah,Iwouldagreethat,likemaybetomakethecasethatmaybetheywerejusteverheartwasneverreallyinit.YouknowIcould.IcouldseethatyouknowbecausealotoftimesyouknowyouChristiansfallawayfromthefaithandsoyouknowI'mafirmbelieverthatthoseaGodsavinggracetofaith,butbuttojustsaythatwedon'tunderstandthefatethatallare.Wedon'treallyknowthehistoryofthepolice.ThedoctrinesofcyclewhatwhatyouwantmetoreadasIreaditImeanI'vereadsomuchstuffandIamthetopgospelandIreadatopgospelprinciplestonewmembersandlikeswhatyouwanttoreadinofficesandunderstandingthing.I'llreadityetthatIwillinsistthatI'mspeakingfromexperience,youknowwhatIwasnewlymarried.Ithinkmydadgavemethebook.ItwasabookwrittenbysomeonewhoconvertedtoMormonismfromaChristianfamily,andthenendedupleavingMormonismandrightwrotekindofanexposétype,butmydadgaveittome.WanttoknowwhatIthinkwhatIthoughtaboutitandImemberreadingthroughitandyoujustkindahavingthesamekindofpossibleshe'she'swronghere.He'swrongthere.Henevershedidn'tunderstandthis,youknowhiminwhereIwassaying.Heiswronghereandhe'swrongthere.Iwasprobablytheonewhowaswrongyouknowtomeanintermsofunderstandingwhathadbeentaughtinthepastandbeenhavinghadaccesstowhatwastaughtinthepastfullyandsoit'skindalikeyoudon'tthemostclichédnowtoonesuitablesteeldistrictpublishthegospeltopicsessaysfornopeopletosaywillknowallofthatwastheanti-momandIMormonmaterialinthelate70sand1980s,unanimity,andthat'snowbeingacknowledged.Thisistrue.Soitcomesfromaplaceofcomesfromaplaceofputtingupdefensivewallsrightwhenyouwhenyoureadsomethingfromsomebodylefthertohearsomethingfromsomebodywholeftyouputupawallbecauseyouprobablyhavethatshelfrightthatishiswaydownandyoucan't.Youcanallowyourselftothinkthatthispersonwhohasleftmighthaveleftforvalidreasons.Otherwise,thatshelfisgonnacrackforyou.YeahforsureILatterDaySaintsthehardestpeoplegrouptoreachinAmerica.Idon'tthinkso.That'soptimisticthatencouragesmeassomeonewho'simmersedinit.IthinkIthinksecularatheistsareprobablythehardestgrouptoreachbecauseatleastwouldletatleastLatterDaySaints.YourshareyoursharedIDastheiststhatthatthereisaGodandyoucanyoucantalkaboutwhatistruth.WhatisthetruthaboutGodthatheisrevealedtotheworldsothatthere'satleastthatmuchofasharedunderstandingofthesharedworldviewthatyoucankindastarttalkingabouttruth,butwithwithsecularatheistswhohavetakenyouknowtheideathatthereisnoabsolutetruthtoheart.Andthat'sprobablythehardestgrouptoreachitshardestgroup,butmostreligiouspeople.Itcanbeverydifficultbecauseyouyounoted,we'venotedintheapologistsisnotedtoseeasyoudipyourtoesifyounevergrownupintheleasebackringtohertoesintoLDSbeliefapologeticsishugelanguagebarrierishugeculturalbarriersoalotoftimeswejusttalkovereachothershipspassinginthenight.It'snotyouknowthere'snoconnectiontheresoittakesalotofworkjusttounderstandwherethey'recomingfromandtobeabletoexplainyourtermsandputallyourcardsonthetablesothere'salotofworkprobablythenmaybeliketalkingtosomeonewhohasahigherviewoftheauthorityofScripture.YoujustgotupaheadlikeItalkedtoonenessPentecostalsononFacebookandDell.DellalwaysreferencecaptureandsowaslikeokaynorunstopageleasetermsoftheBiblebeingthewordofGod.Wedon'thavetotalkaboutandIdon'thavetoshowyouevidenceofnomedicalmanuscript,atrancetradition,xenonauthorityofScripture.Idon'thavetoknowbutthereisstillthatthatissueofwhoGodis.SoIdoknowIspitsitisverymuchlikealotofworkjusttogetoverthesehurdlesandandwethere'sjustadifferentculturalmindsetofwhatitistobesaved.Theydon'ttheydon'tgraspthisideaofsalvationonetimethingthatcontinueson,youknow,andinyourgrowthasaChristianIseelikeokaywhat'syouronetimeStevegotthatassuranceneedtoknowwhatelseyouneedinourlives.ItsleepsallsoyeahDave.That'swhytheystruggletounderstandgracebecauseifyouliketohavethatassuranceofsalvationandconversionateightonyoursaveddogboy.Whenshediscussedanycommitallkinds,ordowhateveryouwanttohavealicensetosinthattheydon'tunderstandtheconceptofGodalsowillbringabelievertotosignificationsothatthepowerofsinisalsotakenfromhimsoIthinkit'sthatit'satruncatedgospelofGodwilljustifyyoufromyoursins,butthenleaveyouinyoursenseofneverchange.HebreaksthepowerofcanceledsintomyfavoritelinesfromthehymnbookwhenheismovingbacktothemotherlandheretohelpusoutwhenhedoescomebacktoUtah.Yeah,Idon'tseethathappeningnowwillnothavetovisitavisit.IdothatsomanySonypeoplefromUtahleaveanddon'tcomebackthatUtahisaweirdplace.Man,I'mnotfromhere.Idon'tknowhowlongI'llbehere.I'mjusthereinTimorweneedmoreChristiansinUtah.Ilivegotplansofgot,assumingeverythingworksoutwell,butI'vegotajoblinedupinIdahoFallsisstillnotkindofarea.Inall,"youokayIdahoFallsmeanit'sbeautifulupthereanddefinitelyneedmoreChristiansinIdahoFallssothat'sgood.AndCincinnatineedsChristianstoPaul,thatisthegreatthingiswiththepodcastbeenontheradioouttherewiththerichpeople.That'sright,youguysareonTruthNetworkAMA20.herethat'swhatisintherightGregonSundaysat2PMcool.Nowthat'sgreat.SoIthinkyouguyssomuchforcomingonjusthavingalongconversationwithquestionsthatI'vealwayswantedask.Iappreciatethat.Hopefullythishelpspeoplethinkthere'sstuff.ThanksforthanksforjoiningmeethicsfromthesunpursuedJimmyGillespiejammingprojectthat'sitforthisepisode,firefliesnextweek.MatthewandIwillbebacktodiscusstheMormonviewoftestimonywhencomparedwiththereformedviewoftheinternalwitnessoftheHolySpirit.Thankyoufortuningintothisepisodeoftheouterbrightnesspodcast.Welovetohearfromyou.PleasevisittheoutofbrightnesspodcastpageonFacebook.Feelfreetosendusamessagetherewithcommentsorquestions.Clickingsendthemessageofthetopofthepage.Wewouldappreciateitifyougivethepagealike.WealsohaveanouterbrightnessgrouponFacebookcanjoinandinteractwithusandothers.Aswediscussedthepodcastpastepisodesandsuggestionsforfutureetc.youcanalsosendusanemailoutofbrightnessGmail.comHopetohearfromyousoonandsubscribedoutofrightnesswhereveryoulistentopodcasts.IfyouarebenefitingfromourcontentpleasewriteareviewtohelpusspreadthewordsubscribetoourYouTubechannelandhitthatnotificationwilluseitforotherbrightnessisgraciouslyprovidedbythetalentedBreannaFlournoyandAdamsRoad.YoucanlearnmoreaboutAdamsRoad.Byvisitingtheirministry.PageandAdamswereadministered.comisreceivedinmycheesenowsaidJesusisthedaytheandIandandandandsheisaaaistheandandaandIandandandaaisisisisisbeing