WISDOM For The L-D-S Missionary

Your right and him and going on a mission is one of the most iconic parts about being a latter-day St. when your child. You idolize the missionaries you sing songs like I hope they call me on a mission you spend your life preparing dreaming of going and watching your relatives leave for two years only to come back more mature and stalwart in their faith in the moment finally arrives and you get the call to go somewhere foreign and exciting to preach the restored gospel is an experience like no other. The bond you make with your companions. Heartfelt discussions with investigators. The strange foods you have to eat often members of the LDS faith feel closest to God during these missions and they are filled with spiritual experiences that bolster the faith of the missionaries all Matthew and I all had the opportunity to serve two-year missions for the LDS church. In this episode will be setting up a hypothetical situation will be asking the question what if our younger missionary selves knocked at our doors.

What we say to them now that we've crossed over to the other side.

All right, Paul, in Matthew tell me again where you served what language you are speaking and tell me about the strange foods that you were fed on your missions was her first first because Polly probably had some weird stuff on your mission so you know I don't want to follow that act so so I served in the Belgian Brussels Netherlands mission, but if there's two different languages and I mission so one side the northern side which included the Netherlands and the West northwestern part of Belgium. They spoke Dutch and the southern part southwestern and southeastern part skews me of Belgium.

I was called the wall money in the northern part of France there was an admission that was the French speaking side sized so I served in the French speaking side, although I did serve as an office. Missionaries was able to visit several Dutch speaking cities which is pretty cool and I got stuck with a lot of those missionaries there and I also served in Brussels where, since there was an international community because they have the European Union there.

There's also a lot of English-speaking All-Americans in military and things of people that visit there. So we are in an English-speaking branch, but then they mixed it with the French speaking branch so half the branch couldn't talk to the other half the work and talk to the other half towards those, mass is an experiment at it like they're literally merging the two at the time so I kind of as evil you like that sought side spoke English and French in and that's down, so mostly French stars. The weirdest thing I so a lot of the people we taught a lot of the members were from Africa. So I think the weirdest thing I had wasn't it wasn't Belgian food.

It was something I think they were there from Congo and I think it was some kind of tripe is some kind of cow intestine type thing and I never had that before my life, and the date it was really good because ice soaked in this really spicy sauce. I like the soft part, but eating it tasted like you were chewing bubblegum but then you're supposed to swallow it, which is a really weird combination. You know that the texture of bubblegum. They are supposed to swallow it.

So yeah. Was this really strange is like when you bite into it. Your teeth bounced back. You know is like chewing on rubber bands, then sales. Probably the weirdest thing I so you chewed on rubber bands. Yeah the central cool so French for Weber have like us cargo yeah so you can buy it even you know how you can have like the Walmart brand products. You know the cheap stuff on so we bought as missionaries in circa four I bought some just like you brand is cargo and you put in the put in the oven could go on the Triton is pretty good so hunting is the only time I had it when Angela and I were first married, our oldest girls to taste of Cincinnati festival downtown and all the local restaurants come out and put on boots and a couple of bucks per booth to try different foods and there was a pretty fancy French restaurant that had a goose down there and they were selling us cargo and I never had a Angela never had a severe like well you know why not try something new. So we lay down by three dollars for some escargot ice. I took one and started to chew on it and it was the most bitter horrible thing I had ever tasted in my life and it was like the way I described Angelos. It was like chewing on one of those rubber balls. He would get out of the machines on your agenda, and she wanted to try it as I know you don't want to try to talk so it was a waste of three dollars but you know it's just one of those situations you have any like herbs or flavors of the fire is just straight escargot must have, but it was whatever the flavor was and is very bitter so is typically put some kind like butter, garlic, or know something on there to make it more tasty benefit was super better in no event will probably try again, so to your question Michael on I served in Hungary, spoke the Hungarian language and there was one mission in Hungary. It had been split off from the Austrian mission. I think they started sending missionaries in the Hungary and and 89 from Austria and then I think 90 1991 this one. It was actually split offices on mission. 93.

I can remember exactly, but I so look couple of things.

There were little strange that I hate their 11 was some one to me is not really strange, they would make like a cherry soup's like a cold fruit soup. It was cooked but then they would let it get cold unit and I really like that but we went to one of the branches we were serving him and went to the release study presents house for a meeting one time and she was making cherry soup but it wasn't. It wasn't to be ready till the next day, but she fed us, and she gave us some cherries that she had left over to my companion of the time did not like cherries. And of course missionaries you talk to whatever you're given you now don't don't offend people. So he was like member like cherries I like, I can either cherries getting choked out a bowl of cherries that he was literally choking them down at your face.

I was like that, but the strangest thing is probably fish soup.

They make us stoop using carp is very cheap and available fish for them to use and they basically just throw it in their whole and then cook it up with no bunch paprika and other spices it ends up being really spicy and I I actually didn't mind it too much, but you get like everything in their lifetime balls and reproductive organs and everything). The stooping cooked in there and there was this one investigator. We would we would teach English to her daughter and then we teach her the discussions in my last area and so I had a grainy at the time and I was for those who don't know greeny is a new missionary first met first area and I'm in my last area. Getting ready to go home and every Tuesday night when we were going teach this this young girl English. Her mom would cook us dinner and each week she would put our names into a hat and then she would draw to see who got to pick what you made for dinner the next week so she forgot my name one time and I chose fish soup because I was messing with my great aunt telling them you have to try this to things like not on tribe like well she picks my name one time you try so when she put my name on I majored. I told her I wanted fish soup and she was surprised because usually missionaries don't want that question made at the next week and it just so happened that my greeny was not with me. I ended up splitting with the different missionary that week so this other Elder had to go with this soup and he was not happy about it and you know you through his like what's this and she's like it's the reproductive organ of fish and it was like all this horrible form so you must.

That's my story. While real quick to like there is another meal that came to my mind is also African metro is stranger than the tribe, but it was deafly awesome and weird but it was is called foo foo I don't that's actual name of it but we just called foo foo and I like so Africans by these big bags of food from flour and it's like you just basically mixed together and make like a paste.

Almost like you can fried up and up and the skillet at some oil and and think, is this water I don't see making some kind like bread and you put into it handwriting. They can let it set.

Skillet set for a while minute kind of really comes up and then you make soup with it, which usually consists of like some kind of meat like beef or pork or something and then you mix it with tomatoes and vegetables and he also put peanut butter in their some kind of weird but I think in public, fish sauce, or whatever you else you want in there and then you mix all up and then you take the food foods like you take use to scrape with her fingers. The food from flour. It's cut like a paste, stuff then you can mix it in with the soup and eat it that way. Always awesome is good stuff. But like it it almost like hardens in your stomach, you know, it's also to get a brick sit in there so I made a once in our apartment with like six missionaries, we all eat the food from flour in the soup so good, but only just like all crashed in our beds for like an hour and 1/2 slab for yeah like half of RP day just because yes it's too intense to me carves a flat while I Michael soon I could not answer this question. I just I feel bad because I'm I can have as cool of an answer is, so I went to Anaheim, California, and I learned how to speak English. While I was out there and so yeah I ate a lot of normal food. The whole time I was out there remember one of my families friends came and visited the ward I was serving you and they went back and saw my parents and their only house you know how's Michael looking in the like, well fed me. I yeah got fed by the members. Pretty much every night like there was never any any wondering when my next meal was going to calm so yeah I think the weirdest thing a is probably a tossup and there were some other cultures out there, so it's not like I never came across food that I wasn't used to, but kimchee she has a familiar with that but Korean cabbage kinda – they bury it right. I'm not sure how what they do with that. I but it's it's very is very strange.

I didn't like it but the thing that really took the cake was a piece of Mongolian cheese that somebody gave me and my companion is aware this lady's house or talking to her actually want a piece of you know Mongolian cheese. More like yes that sounds great.

So it was so dry that it's like and sucked our mouths like dry like just eating it and were just like trying to do this stuff down.

It was just very very tasteless and unlike why we couldn't even swallow it. I just left it in my mouth, trying to be polite until we walked out and then we both spat it out only one think this is sounds like a drug deal and you want a piece of Mongolian cheese.

It probably is looking for a way to get rid of it and she saw things like I can pass the curse on to them. So yeah, I'm sorry if any of the listeners love to use from Mongolia but yet wasn't wasn't the best experience for me and at least tell you what animal came from is a good question know but yeah I don't think it was from a cow or go or anything forgot to say was like something weird like raccoon cheese or something they didn't they didn't tell me at all aware that Jesus what animal just the region that it came from but if I had to guess it was something extinct historic that's probably goat or something like that go cheese. Yes, Jack yeah all right. Moving on to the next question guys and as this one. Sue Paul first. What would you say to yourself, if you came over as a missionary and it was your first day out on your mission. This is a really good question because a lot of times I'll see especially hang much unlike the Mormon stories. Good to see people talk about their missions and sometimes they really are angry and feel like it was a waste of time. I don't feel that way about my mission at all. I think it was a good opportunity for me to get out into another culture and learn to love and serve people and the weather, but I would say to my younger self.

If I came across myself on orienting missionary really on their first day during the first week or whatever is just to to really do that. Learn to love people learn to serve people and a lot of lot of young kids go out on special. I was out loving young kids went out because of societal pressure cultural pressure within the LDS church and it might good my mother been something I would've chosen for themselves. If you took away that cultural pressure.

I know that was certainly the case for me.

I went out because it was something my mom had taught me for a long time was really important to do so I would.

I would tell my younger self to love people serve people and pay attention to people because I came across people who God used to teach me things that were important so all right what about you Matthew as all great advice. I would see for me personally if I were to give advice myself on starting on my first day I really struggled with early struggled with feelings of inadequacy was also really, I was told by lots of people on the street like wow you've only been in France for a week and 1/2 or two weeks like your French is great.

It always complement me on how I was able to speak French but I could. I can understand the word anybody said you know I like at least six months before it even starts out put sentences together because French is so fluid you know it's so know the words go.

It's hard to parse out every individual words such took me so long to figure what they're saying. So I just really struggled with depression and like I cried a lot. My first transfer so I'll probably just tell myself just not to worry about it you know just it'll come in time. The language comes in time. You know that's just one barrier that takes time to get over just also just take the time to like Paul said, you know, really try to interact and really try to understand the people you're talking to us, me. I tried, but that the language barrier just kind of pushed me estimate you have kids there sale want to stuff and then I was like okay so I'm assuming you said you had kids so we can to try to continue the conversation wanted to really understand what they're saying they are just really try to connect to people in and not worry so much about you know, making sure you try to save everybody because I feel like there is this huge weight of like I've got to preach the gospel on they know their salvation is on my hands and I don't do well enough, then back at me.

Mine condemnation so just know it's not worry about so much. Just enjoy the experience and take the time to you know the proverbial smelling the roses you enjoying your experience taking the time to enjoy the culture tend to learn about the people and try to find time to have some fun learning all going museums or whatever so much. Some there are so many PAs were, you know, I was worried and do the kind of stuff. There were PAs, were we did go visit cathedrals and historical siteson my most memorable time so deftly take the time to appreciate the culture and visit when you can decide.

That's one of my favorite things that we did this is Mr. there were there were days when the days when we would know go out on the island and play frisbee golf or no. Do things like that play basketball, but a lot of times we would go to museums or cathedrals in or the communist statute Parker whatever sightseeing things we could do and definitely those are some of my best memories as a missionary. My favorite experiences was when we visited a Holocaust Museum outside Brussels and I mean it wasn't a pleasant experience is very humbling that they had like pictures of people that were in the hockey know that were at the concentration camp and they had audio to interviews of people after they left, and experiences they hadn't and it was intense, but you know it's like, that's why I just don't get the Holocaust deniers is like I've been there, you know, I've seen the concentration camps. You know can't deny the history so I think that's something that we in our generation really need to tap into is just connecting to history.

Good good answers guys and it was kind of thing about this to you and connect echo what you are saying Matthew and a lot of feelings of inadequacy to not delay didn't speak the language because that I had down you know mostly but I was the company with this trainer named Elder Dana's and he was just a beast but he was young.

She is so bold, so persuasive behind CM target people's doors and like she almost never got turned away by people and no matter what their objections were. He would just find a way to turn it around and and start talking to them and I'm like man you he baptize so many people out my gums. I'm never going to add up to these other missionaries that are out here in know I have a lot of members of my family that just had these crazy experiences on the mission that had younger brothers that had the blessings that they were going to have all these miracles on their missions and I'm like this all this this pressure on me to be this amazing missionary and I just didn't believe that I could be. So I think the first thing I would probably tell myself is just to stop doubting myself so much.

I just had a lot of self-doubt and just I'm probably just tell my tell me you know you really teach just as well as as these other missionaries know by the end of this you know just just give yourself time so I think that either the main thing that's really the main thing I would tell myself at any stage of my life is just you know don't doubt yourself so much.

Don't. I guess don't ruin yourself like that, but the other thing that I would encourage him to do is to start diving into the Scriptures. I think he was probably 3 1/2 months into my mission when I really took an interest in it and you know I would really go that deep in the introduction right away but I will if nothing else, I would encourage my younger self to really start studying the Scriptures at seven and finding the answers there. Just knowing how much I would love it later.

You know what an impact that would make inside probably just want to get that ball rolling a little bit more. I think that's what I did but I would tell me on my first day as I'm glad you mentioned the Scriptures because I mentioned before that but I've set a goal for myself to read all the standard workflows on my mission when I was in the MTC ends and I did that and that that process of studying through you know when I got to the Old Testament and then into the New Testament sitting through the Bible really for the first time reading every page and every story and narrative that the mayor it was a different experience than it ever had before and it changed me know. Just reading through it and give me a foundation. I think an understanding both my religion is latter-day St. Annie's how things help Christians do things differently so speaking of Christians Matthew I'll ask you first. But did you did you encounter Christians on your mission. If so, how did they treat you and what was your impression of them. When one is reading this question.

I was thinking back in its babies just the fog of time, but I don't really remember having a ton of conversations with Christians.

I do remember I had conversations with Catholics and most of them were kind of nominal Catholics cultural Catholics. I do remember going to think it was some kind of Pentecostal church. They invited us to a service of their so I tended that we didn't really have any deep theological discussions, we can adjust attended you.

I didn't know them personally is another missionary and are district that got the invite suite was. We went with them yet. Remember, while conversations with Christians. So I do remember we were sliding on the street one time and so I just quoted two escalations, 18 through 10. I think it was you know the one where Paul says know if you preach lift, preach any other gospel now which we have given to you, let him be accursed. I think they just they didn't even say the did anyone read the passage they just said the reference Galatians 182 10 like okay I have a good day and I looked it up later. Mike out so he hadn't. I don't have much of an impression. To be honest because I didn't really interact with any really, you know Christians that were really stronger really, really hard-core in their face like us consent suddenly have much in impression. All I've mentioned before that the Southern Baptist convention had their big meeting in Selleck city. The year that I was leaving on my mission and so I remember them going door-to-door in remember thinking at the time that you know that was persecution in some way and I don't know why thought that because I'm at the same time was going door-to-door with letter to say missionaries to word starting in Selleck city is kind of like a training opportunity for those who were getting ready to leave and so I don't know why I saw this persecution but I did so my my impression of Christians was that they didn't think your we were Christians. Latter-day Saints generally don't and in terms of how they treated me on my mission. It's a mixed bag. You know, I don't know that I could ever say a Christian slammed the door in my face. I did get the door slammed in my face a lot but I don't know if those people were actually Christians you know that that those interactions didn't last. Generally long enough for me to know for sure whether they were Christians or not. A lot of what we got because the jury is Sir Henry is this largely Catholic. There's some pockets of Lutheranism.

There, there's one city Debrecen this very Calvinist very reformed and we would go knocking on doors and get will be called. A lot of times the double back.

Al would like their hand like this and like to be pushed by jumping on on Catholic new long enough. Thus, we got probably most times from people who were religious in some way, but it did there was one time when we attracted into by attracting a new knocking on doors.

We knocked on the door of a guy who was a Lutheran pastor and he invited us in and it was, like the proverbial Bible bash session for a couple hours with him. She was very strident so that was kind of took that as a negative experience but it was still an experience that that I came away with realizing that you know there's some areas where I really couldn't defend my faith, but that I there was another time when I attracted into which I did and do young Baptist couple. They were also Hungarian and it was husband-and-wife and I had a young child and he was a Baptist missionary in the in the city where I was serving at the time and they were very kind to us. They invited us in and he opens the Bible and we talked about grace for an hour or so and I remember leaving that meeting with him feeling completely different than the meeting. I've had with the Lutheran pastor. He was very kind and willing to patiently try to teach us the doctrines of grace and I was thankful for that and it was. I left that that meeting with him. I was already in some ways questioning I left that meeting with him feeling like that I didn't have the truth was so so and in most cases, they treated us very well.

There were some some Bible bashing experiences, but for those people who I got to know who were Christians in some way they treated us very well and that and even people that I met who had been baptized LDS from like the Catholic Church you know which is the core of all the earth, according to the book of Mormon. Those there's there's one gentleman that I can think of in particular was very very kind he was. He had been for many many years.

Someone who worked in and like the rectory that has Catholic Church working with priests and he was a very soft-spoken, very kind old man really appreciated the friendship that I developed with him.

So was that was a Lutheran is a Lutheran pastor yeah was he the one that showed you the book from like the Dead Sea Scrolls, unless remember from your story yeah I know he's not on that guy. We never had any interaction with that guy other than just at the front window of his house where he gave me that that packet of photocopied papers that was the war scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls so other than getting that from him returning at the next day and giving them a book of Mormon we never had any further interaction with him now So you don't know if he is Christian or not. Either know okay well yeah so I there were a lot of Christians on my mission where I went and I think a lot of the reaction I got was pretty negative. Initially I just kind of see people watch me from the doorways of these judge mental stairs and they wouldn't interact. For the most part are just contactors real briefly the door and end the conversation and enclose the door as fast as they could.

So I didn't have a real positive view of Christians. In fact, I thought that they were lazy that they didn't really have very much conviction nor care about the commandments of God that much. You know the work certainly won't like us Latter Day Saints know there is a lower level they were terrestrial. You know they were good people, but you know if they weren't so lazy they would join the church so that I met my friend Eddie Noxon and you know he he debated us for several hours and I left. Same thing as Pauline.

I didn't think the church was true anymore and I can away and then and started studying and kind of figured out how to start defending my faith in and beside preparing for these dialogues and I had a really low view of Christians. After that debate took it real negatively and I started almost equating them like with Satan like their Satan's minions. You know they are what makes them dangerous is that there's so close to the truth, but it still you know a false gospel and and they're trying to bring people like me out of the church to you to believe in in Protestantism and I never actually have this dream and this should illustrate you know just how much I distrusted Christians, but my agreement we were in our apartment always missionaries and then there is a knock in the. The Christians came in and you like Constance and Leona had to go to the bathroom and they let me leave the apartment so I like walked out and it was one of those apartments are there's a hallway like I was still indoors, sort of. When I laughed and I heard screaming inside like them yelling at each other and so I looked through the keyhole and I saw the Christians pull out guns and shoot the other missionaries you know I woke up and I'm just like you like that kind tells you like a Mike you how they might act nice, but deep down you know they have this message of death, and they are trying to pull us down to hell with them so yeah just a really low view of Christians, even the whole dialogue I kinda thought like silly omissions, like all yeah we heard about Christians doing something like this in and they just cornered the missionaries and you know, persecuted them in and that's what I thought was can happen to them like they're gonna put us in a corner. There gonna know throw fruit at Aston and Collison names and is think having like people drive by us on our bikes and they just kinda yell out their car windows like Jesus is Lord and just like a like we know or are they just yell things out of this, but not actually have conversations like Satan lied to Adam and Eve when he said they could become gods and I'm just like, is that is this all that Christianity has to offer link just yelling at you from cars and from the other side of the street, but not being willing to engage in actually finally did the dialogues and is is kind of funny because after that a lot of the Christians in the in the neighborhood recognize me like my friend Eddie Noxon that I was the celebrity missionary that was what he dubbed me and so people start letting me in their houses because they they knew me from from the dialogues and so I she started to get to sit down and talk with Christians a lot more and the end of my mission, my perception completely changed it. I couldn't deny that Christians are good people. I'm actually really liked them a lot so you I trusted them. I didn't have those fears and concerns I had earlier on in my mission but I still thought that they were yellow little lazy in an obvious he had a false false gospel.

You know were just a little bit special. That way just to clarify, do you mean when you say if other lazy is because he thought like him. They just don't want to give up their tea and coffee and like other simple stuff that Christians can do or was it just like all they don't have as many commandments as we do ordinary know they don't do as many charitable works as we doing on any so what would you.

I think it was it was a little bit like those of the second thing you're you're saying like they don't have as many commandments. It's like the gospel light. Basically, they couldn't keep all these commandments if they had them and I talked to some crazy Christians on the street to work the other there like all were saved on my what we do and I just like seaweed. He can kill somebody and you'll still go to heaven.

You can just go like hijack a plane and and kill everybody on board and there like you Mike okay sounds like you my mind like the commandments mean nothing to these guys like it doesn't matter to them at all. The you know inside of you notices you Latter Day Saints is being more holy than Christians because like we actually uphold God's law and we care about it and I thought that they did but just know to an extent, you know, I just didn't extend anywhere near as far as us and yet they didn't do as many charitable good works. You know if there was a natural disaster.

We were the ones out there. Mormon helping hands, you know, helping everybody rebuild after after any disaster. But I may make sense because we do more research is a lot of money and he was capable of doing a lot of stuff like that yes does that answer your question. Matthew, there's that there's a quote right from Joseph Smith of how to paraphrase exempt on the good exact. But something about like religion and doesn't require everything of its people is not capable of providing salvation to them or something like that. Yeah, a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never had the power to grant salvation or yeah that's pretty close.

And Smith, right yeah yeah so that that can be. We definitely our mission because it was a largely Catholic nation know we had this this feeling of superiority. You know, we would make fun and all they only show up to church on Christmas and Easter. You know they can't Bother themselves come out to church every week and things like that. We have deftly had some negative use so yeah. Oh man, I was kind of a brat as a missionary. By the way I wrote this entire song about born-again Christians to make fun of them so like some of the lyrics were born again, saved from sin and an fornication saved from sin never going to have to work again hallelujah amen my brothers in jail.

My sister Gabe were all safe. So that's okay hallelujah amen when we read James we get mad because our works have all been bad. Hallelujah it is went on for like 20 minutes. I don't even remember his lyrics and how, but I just yet. That just goes to show like I do something were ridiculous as they reminds me of some conversations we've had recently. But my can a name drop, but interesting – like a soundtrack yeah yeah the modern sodium Delilah soundtrack someone else probably pick up that song now in yeah that's given be used against us. So thanks a lot this is going to go triple platinum or was a South Park episode because it was a Christian music. They couldn't go platinum that can only go gold, frankincense and myrrh. So you go double murder is that good, though, is that good. You just need Nick human eyes or something to do backup vocals and I think you think began yeah and somebody else to do. Primary vocals yeah all right, so next next question. How would you treat your younger self and dismantle your preconceived notions about Christians and I think it's Matthew's turn to answer first thought like us only interact with a lot of really faithful Christians.

Most of them are kind of nominal Christians or nominal Catholics so most of what my ideas about work of Christians were that they were kind of just naïve or they were ignorant of the fullness of the gospel that they were probably probably had good intentions, so they just didn't have the fullness of God's revelation to man so I would kind of explains myself because I had this notion in my mind that Christians read the Bible. They probably enjoy the Bible what they don't really understand the Bible because I know that I read Bruce R. McConkie a lot before my mission and one thing he would repeat in all his works is that you can't truly understand the Bible in its fullness.

Unless you see it through the lens of the restoration so you kind of have to have that understanding of the restored gospel as taught by the Latter Day Saints church to understand the Bible says so. I thought the Christians probably read the Bible and they like to put it in really understand it, so it kind of explain myself I was younger like a you know Christians really do study this stuff in depth. A lot of times, a lot of them study it from the original languages going to exegetical theology which is just reading the Bible passage by passage and really pulling out what it teaches, rather than trying to force your views into the Bible they really want to extract what the Bible teaches, and they also do a lot of expositional preaching, where they would just know go through passerby passage since the start, I would introduction to the book to give you the context and they go in all verse by verse and just go through and say what the author is saying so a lot Christians do that kind of preaching in and it's really commendable so so it kind of try to give myself a higher view of Christians in less of a kind of you Christians as being naïve or ignorant to an extent. The very knowledgeable about all many of them are very knowledgeable about their faith. That's not the case. Obviously for everybody who professes Christ, but that's probably the biggest thing on site and also I kind of probably had similar ideas that you did Michael where kinda like the antinomian idea that you don't have to really keep God's law are that does only matter you not us, my view was to allow Christians. I thought water saved by grace. So what's the point of commandments. So kind of try to explain to my former self. That the Bible teaches that you're saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. But once you're saved you're called to live a life of holiness are called to live in hi to your sins and to pick up your cross and follow Jesus. And so if you really are a follower of Jesus, you should be keeping the commandments are striving to keep the commandments. So you have those nets without explain yeah I think I just can't be overstated. The importance of explaining the Latter Day Saints that we do believe in a process of sanctification. I think a lot of them just goes over their head, don't realize that that week, except that Ameena had one latter-day St. just going after me like all week just kinda saying oh so you you believe that your saved lives easy.

You don't have to struggle with Stan anymore to hike.

I've never said that is certainly not what I believe. So I think that's a really good way to go pound your help if you're not strong to sin and I'm I have to ask yourself a Marilyn Christian because I don't think you ever stop struggling with sin. It's a struggle everyday. Amen to that.

So how much you must younger self and dismantle preconceived notions about Christians and we talked a little bit about how sometimes Michael especially for you in the US sin like Christians when gelling from across the street are not really engage just can't have short, pithy statements that they would make to you to try to challenge you, but not really interact in the Christians when I was on my mission who really made an impact were the ones to invited me in and showed me hospitality within their home and I don't think they compromised anything by that. I have seen Christians use slight second John chapter 1, 7 to 10 which says for for many deceivers gone out into the world. Those who did not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is a deceiver and the antichrist want yourself so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God.

Whoever abides in the teaching has both the father and the son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive them into your house or give him any greeting for whoever grieves and takes part in his wicked works so soon. Christians use that passage as a reason to not interact with LDS missionaries all night and not invite them into their home and and and and I didn't see you know, some suggest that it's it's justification for treating them poorly and ice strongly disagree with that. That approach to two second John one, 7 to 10. There are very specific teachings within that passage that John is warning his readers to avoid and not have any interaction with. I don't think those teachings letters that are listed there are teachings that the Latter Day Saints are generally generally trying to bring and and also I would but I would say you like I said the one the Christians who had the biggest impact on me as latter-day St. missionary were the ones who treated me with hospitality from into their home taught me from the Bible and I know you know us as the latter-day St. missionary your you're told you're not going out to be taught you're going out to teach and admitted latter-day St. that that's that's why you end up with Bible bashing situations because missionaries don't want to hear necessarily what what a Christian is saying to them, but I think it's important for Christians to find a way to interact with with C missionaries in positive ways. I know Michael you I've talked about sometimes when you've done that since you become a Christian. Yeah so that's that's what I would do to do with hospitality.

Invite the men open the Bible with them and and challenge them to think through the think through some things to some grace.

Yeah, I mean one thing to just jump in my mind what you are saying that all is a member and I remember being on a mission in you get moved around so much. You know you not around your family.

The friends that you do make on your mission you mediate moved and then there out of your lives and so I think that a lot of these missionaries are desperate for the. The ability to connect to somebody and mean.

I think they want and saving for me when when he will invite me to their house and they showed me hospitality was amazing and so those Christians have the biggest impact on me as well is also going to sometimes. Sometimes a companionship to pay shipping to missionaries or sometimes three missionaries sometimes Christians are talking to missionaries.

Our members were talking to missionaries.

Sometimes it seems like you know everything is going great with a companionship you don't get along elders. Everything is going great. But then, behind the scenes, you know there's there's they just don't. I just, I mean, you guys probably experience to do with her just some companionship's were you got a long unite, clicked, and sometimes word just there's a clash in your personalities or something that just doesn't work in the fact that you're with them 24 hours a day seven days a week. You Be away from your companion, except for on rare occasions like exchanges and things like that. You just kinda great on each other's nerves and just having that experience of going to a members house or going to an investigator or are just a non-Christian someone that invites you in just to chat and or you'll give you a meal you did then you have to have a meal just have a discussion. Sometimes I was just like everything I would just look for to that every week just because the rest of the week was just so difficult trying to love my companion trying to get along with my companion and not really having any any other relationship other than that sought meeting other people and in the cabin. Having those experiences like explain my gorgeous like they expect me my weekend. I struggle with depression. My mission, and there are a lot of times where I just told myself I was wasting my time is wasting my money and my parents money because missionaries of the finest themselves out there like just go home and I just wasting your time is just no point and so yeah just like those tiny little tokens of mercy and that people would give me. You know, just a meal or just ask me. Sincerely, how are you doing and are you struggling something in your mission you know and I just just wanting to show Karen show show affection for missionaries because their people in other ultimately people sometimes like to think of Mormons as far missionaries as robots or something like that, you know, like all their just agents of the devil and we just you know, we just don't. We can talk to them should relate to them.

Like Paul explained, but their people in the you know they have feelings and they's have struggles and I think if you try to connect in some way and that can really form a connection from the bridge with them yet, and I was noticing into like about things to experiences that stand out to me were a Christian really shifted the paradigm of what I thought about them and one I mentioned this on on the podcast before but we moved on to two Christian women that were walking and we tried to go preach Mormonism to them and then they were just really nice to us and the like oh you know what we we as a church we pray for you guys. Every Sunday and of course I knew that the they were praying for us to be successful in our missionary endeavors or anything.

It's still just as a man you Christians hated us like you can't say that somebody is praying for you, hates you, you know it's kinda hard to say that so that was one thing and then another one was we we were teaching this this teenager guy.

He open the door and it was this really powerful lesson we were giving him and like I thought he was gonna convert but then his parents showed up while we were there, and his dad was a pastor versus kinda interesting, but his dad panic Cusick Katie Holland amenity came out with like a bunch of groceries in and gave them to anything. I know you guys don't always get get fed.

Which wasn't true in my mission. But you know we were happy to take the food. Anyway I just thought that that was a really long sex Bowls going off, those really nice gesture so but yeah those things and I try to delete if I was talking myself as a Mormon missionary probably do the same thing that I do with the local missionaries that come over to my house and being an X Mormon were already you know at a huge disadvantage because more members of the church. Look at us and were as despicable as they come.

You know we've abandon our covenants. We've left the church, but we can't leave it alone and so I think this this stigma with X Mormons at site. These people are really out to get us these guys are our enemy and so I really I really try to just invite the missionaries and I do introduce myself to them and I'm upfront and honest about them about you know who I am and in everything, but usually try to to build some connection with them and will share our our crazy missionary stories for for a while because it's something that we share in common. You know I can't tell them about the crazy lady we ran into the extended church ruined her life and then she ran out and got in her car and tried to run us over and you know will just try to top each other's stories for for a while but usually don't talk doctrine the first time that I meet them like I just use it to to build a friendship. You know the kind of build that bonds I know they wanted and I know they want to talk about doctrine just as much as I do so usually I'll invite them over for dinner and on and will talk about doctrine over dinner and I'll make them like root beer floats or something.

I just try to make it fun for them when when they come by just have an environment where there's not you know this was in so many houses on my mission which is like this, you know, gloom and doom like I got you kind of thing and I'm not trying to set an environment like that.

Like I want them to want to come over and and discuss and I usually don't take the approach that I am an apologist or from trying to preach at them and I take more of an approach of a lion. I'm just like you guys. I'm on a journey to find the truth.

So let's take this journey together, and here's my perspective. And here's why. I have it, you know, what would you say about about this you know and will kinda go through the Scriptures that way and I just found in my experience over the last you know two years I've had the opportunity to do this with a couple sets of missionaries in gone really well, their understanding of what we believe is is ground they actually understand my position and you they call me Brother Flournoy, which I take is as a complement you as a term of endearment.

But I've had at least two of them kind contact me afterwards and stated that they trust me you know I'm in the they know I disagree with them. They know that I believe the that they're in a false gospel. So it's not like I have not given them the message. They've heard it loud and clear, but I think that it can be done with with respect and and they don't view me the way that Christians usually are that Mormons usually view X Latter Day Saints so I know that it can be done so yeah that's what I would do with with my younger self as well. All right, get into the next question here is when Apollo 1st. How would you answer the charge coming from yourself that Mormons are Christian to that they believe in Jesus and in that heavenly father loves all his children, so the first question how right now answer the charge that Mormons are Christian to. I would challenge it I would. I would ask them what they mean by saying Mormons are Christians, do they mean that Mormonism falls within the broad category of the Christian religion because they leave and ends follow Jesus Christ and his teachings. So as it is a sociological Christianity that they are claiming or do they mean that they have on an individual level been born again because that's that's the definition of what a Christiansomeone who has been born again, drawn by God the father to the son given the gift of faith justified saved individual is everyone who is attending an evangelical Christian church Lutheran Church Reformed Church is everyone sitting in the pews and those churches a born again Christian.

The answer that question is no, and I would argue that that's true of LDS faith as well and I don't know that they could counter that right because everyone has to have that individual experience where the father draws them to. So that's out counter that because I think I think a lot of times at least it was the case for me what I wanted was Pam in the club kinda feeling with the rest of you all. Right. So was more of a sociological definition of Christian that I was after I fit you know within this category, but when you really get down to brass tacks when you really get down to the heart of the matter has has the person been given the new heart to love God and seek after him because without that they're not really seeking after him in terms of the second part of the question that they believe Jesus and a heavenly father who loves all of his children. I would challenge that as well. Do you believe Jesus right.

Do you believe Jesus when he says unless you believe that I am she, you will die in your sins that's that's an important question to ask yourself what does he mean by unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins. So yeah I will, I would just challenge them gently taken to the Scriptures so I would answer those Matthew will your thoughts. Yeah, I think Paul gave a great explanation for the first one I have anything to add to the first question answering the charge and Mormons are Christian to come to clarify what it for those who are listening and might not know what Paul is saying when he was quoting John 824 right when he says if you believe that I am he. If you do not believe that I me than you will die in your sins. Basically, the words airing the Greek are a go.

I me which is which is those same words are used in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint to refer to the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh. So Jesus was saying emphatically that if you do not believe that I am Yahweh or Jehovah, then you will die in your sins and Latter Day Saints may say well we believe these Jehovah right will did you do you believe everything that Jehovah says about himself in the Old Testament where he says that he does not change that in God that there is no shadow of turning or changing that he in essence has eternally been God that he did not progress to God had already.

He was never born. He was never created. He's eternally been God. So those are all attributes that are essential to believing in Yahweh and in the God of Scripture and so and when you think about it that way. The doctrines that are essential to Latter Day Saints. Theology such as eternal progression. Part of that is the understanding that they believe that we are all literal spirit children of God the father and God the mother and so is Jesus. Jesus was also an offspring of God the father, God the mother. So that means that he went on, he underwent some kind of change know some Latter Day Saints will say that he was still eternally God even before birth as a spirit intelligence, but I don't think you can really make that case because God says he doesn't change, and yet we see him changing from a spirit intelligence to a spirit body to you know going through the eternal progression of the plan of salvation Latter Day Saints theology so I don't think you can really say that the Latter Day Saints view of Jesus is Yahweh. As we as the Bible explains it from everlasting to everlasting you are God. Psalm 90 verse two there is no changing God. He's eternally been God. He's he's not born or made or created and there is no other God than Yahweh. So the only way we can explain that and the fact that the Bible teaches that both the father is Yahweh and the sun is Yahweh is that they are both the one eternal God noted there. The orthodox view of works of explaining this is that what whatever makes God.

God is clinical noise God nest you can say that is his essence what makes God who he is is is essence and that essence is shared by both the father and the son and also the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is called God. So there's one essence shared co-equally amongst these three divine persons, so the father not the son sums up the spirit despairs up father, but they share the same divine essence eternally and they been any in eternal relationship in John one verse one says in the beginning was the word and in the Greek it says it in the beginning. The word already was. He he was wising you could say use yard existed in the beginning so you can goes back as far as you want the sun existed. The word existed and he was past time day on which means he was face-to-face with God.

He had a face-to-face relationship with God. God the father to the father and the son. When eternal relationship face-to-face with one another. So it's not like he knew he was.

He was still a person. He still had no consciousness. A will there is communication there was love between the persons and not only did the word eternally be with the father he what he was God. So the son is God the father's God there face-to-face with one another. You have to reconcile these things together and that's why Christians are forced to be Trinitarian's we can't we can't compromise on that that so that's a line in the sand so that's why throughout history when when you see someone challenging these doctrines such as the Nestorians that you know they try to say that Jesus was to persons in within Jesus or you see Arians estate of Jesus was a created being that he wasn't always God or that he didn't always exist. These all counter with the biblical testimony of an eternal, unchanging God that has been revealed in three divine persons.

And that's something we just can't compromise on. So when we say do you love Jesus quote unquote, I would have to ask which Jesus because I think the differences between what LDS believe about Jesus and what Christians believe about Jesus is different enough that we can't be talking at the same God. We can agree that yes are different versions of Jesus both were spoken of in the Gospels, knowing he taught the parables, etc. but there different enough that we can't be talking about the same God in the same. Same goes with heavenly father. There is no God before heavenly father, God the father does not have a wife so and we say that God loves his children will Latter Day Saints even in that phrase or saying that they that God loves all of his literal spirit children and we believe that God does not give birth to us as spirit children we use. We see in John chapter 1 that to those to those who believe in God, he gave them the right to become children of God become children of God by adoption up at first. So these are just fundamental differences. These are chasms that do separate biblical Christianity and Latter Day Saints theology that we just cannot cross so we can be friends with Latter Day Saints and we can share the gospel with them and we can have good friendly relationships and we can you love them and and and and growing fellowship in a certain sense, but we can't call them brothers in Christ. For those reasons yeah really good answer. Matthew really appreciated that.

I was thinking about how I would counter this as well and I think the first thing that I would talk about is like.

I brought this up to some LDS friends of mine, but… This guy in Russia that kind of looks like the paintings of Jesus that they have in the LDS wards any unique claims to be Jesus and he's got a bunch of your followers around him and so my question is are those people Christian and even a Latter Day Saints will say no, they're not Christian.

It says in Mark 13 that false Christ will rise and so if you're if you're following a false Christ, then you're not a Christian. And so there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

You can't just say well because I believe in Christ and him using his name. That makes me a Christian that is simply not true and once you acknowledge that there is a line there that is what I would say let's listing into the Scriptures.

Let's dig into the differences and let's see if there are significant because I believe that they are significant enough and I'm not going overall this the same thing that you just did.

Right now Matthew but one of them. The big things is when I was LDS I kinda thought if I went back in time 100 trillion years, and I saw Jesus, he might just be a pile of sparkly intelligence you know not really a spirit. Yet, much less a God and now I believe if I go back you know hundred trillion years.

He is the same as he is right now. I mean yell God's got a still God. You know he's not lower in his progression, but he's not intelligence. I don't want to worship a God who I'm farther along in my progression. Then he was 100 trillion years ago. I just don't. I don't see the excitement and that the other the other thing I would bring up is if God loves all of his children, then why does he send some of them to hell. Specifically, you know the devil and his angels are still God's children, but they are in outer darkness. According to LDS theology and there will be some who were sons of perdition who will go to outer darkness for eternity. And I know that a lot of Latter Day Saints would say well you know there's still in the celestial kingdom and the terrestrial kingdom you knowing in Jesus is in the terrestrial kingdom, and even the celestial kingdom is so beautiful that you know you would kill yourself to go there but the fact still remains that they are banished from the father's presence in the celestial kingdom in any of those places and so if God loves all of his children.

Why doesn't he accept them.

You know Charles, I'm not here. I'm just guessing that I would definitely bring up the point that in Christianity we believe that God saves and accepts 100% of his children books. I will you saying Matthew demanded that Michael sorry I thought you're done you to get you off. Not yet. It's interesting to because all talk to a lot of Latter Day Saints and will quote verses from the Bible it says wall, says your grace to your saved by grace, apart from your works as a gift of God knows they will yell amen.

You know you need grace were saved by completely by grace to get to the celestial kingdom and to get exaltation you need ordinances and works etc. etc. but like you said it's by grace and why doesn't God give grace to those in the terrestrial and celestial kingdom. Grace isn't something that you take from God as something that he gives so I does he give that same grace to them that he gives to those that make it to the celestial kingdom. So just something to think about yeah yeah for sure you go ahead and jump into the next question here and when asked Paul this first. How would you answer if your former self said that God still speaks to us through a prophet because he loves us today. First I would agree with the premise that God loves us today God. God's love didn't stop and so I would. I would agree with that premise, but I would challenge the charge that because of that God still speaks to us through profit and with with Latter Day Saints. There's a couple approaches you can take one is to ask what has God said through Latter Day Saints profits that wasn't said through prior profits or that is no additional to what we already know from the Bible. And when you asked that question. You did a variety of answers. Sometimes people will talk about the word of wisdom and how that is for people's health and so therefore that shows God's love for people. Other times, people will talk about note the revelation of the true nature of God and that opens the door to to ask the question what are you talking about, you know, like Matthew was saying before, with regards to the Trinity are you are you saying are you claiming that you have a different understanding of the nature of God. If you are, then we really have something to talk about their and there's there's some significant difference to to dig into and the challenge for Latter Day Saints. If they make that claim is that the real meat of the additional teachings about the nature of God are outside of their canon. There's allusions to them like D&C 130 right where it talks about God having a body God the father having a body of flesh and bones tangibles man's but outside of that you have to go to Joseph Smith's can follow sermon or the sermon the Grove to really dig into their difference. The differences with regards to the nature of God and so that's one way I would challenge it the other way is the biblical way right, we just say look, look at the Old Testament right Old Testament Israel. There were three offices that were really important in the Old Testament Israel, prophet, priest and king right and you had people serving within each of those offices of King David. Really important king in Israel. Isaiah really important prophet. You have the high priests right who served in the temple making the sacrifice served in the tabernacle, beginning with Aaron and his sons right so these three roles were really important roles in the Old Testament Israel in the New Testament applies to each of those roles and their cessation to Jesus Christ right Jesus Christ in the New Testament. He was especially is the ultimate high priest, and in Hebrews to use the final profit and she is the ultimate king. So if you're going to claim that God speaks to us through profit today than you are denying what Hebrews says about Jesus Christ in his role as says the one through whom God has in these last days spoken to the world. So that's my thoughts on what you think.

Matthew would you say to yourself, if you said that yeah I study it so I studied within the Christian world there's there's kind of a division in terms of the charismatic gifts mess, site topic, but in studying that I really study this topic of continuation of apostles and prophets and things like that if it's necessary. If it continues today and it's really hard to prove. I said I think that passage in Hebrews chapter 1 right versus 1 to 3. I think that's what you're talking up all I think that's a really clear teaching that all of the prophets and apostles were leading to Christ, but as a latter-day St.

Many of them will say well after Christ ascended to heaven there were still apostles and prophets in the New Testament church. So why are those not supposed to continue and and so it's hard to really pin down a time when you're supposed to say okay at this precise time. That's when prop prophets and apostles ended right but we week. You can have to look at all of Scripture as a whole, and you see that every time there's an outpouring of spiritual gifts, prophecies, things like that miracles it's because God is kind of putting his divine seal upon that person.

So we see like, especially with Elijah and Elisha, God performed many miracles through them to prove their their prophetic calling because they were being challenged by worshipers above all and and other people there. They were being challenged by them as to whether there are truly prophets of God work through them. Moses also there is a huge outpouring of miracles, and so God was basically saying this is my profit. I called him to my work and so I will show all these signs and wonders, as is divine proof of his calling, and we don't really see that very often until we get to the New Testament with Christ. Christ performed miracles by people back from the dead, and that's why they thought he was Elijah and then we see that also with the apostles after the day of Pentecost that dad the outpouring of the Spirit upon them. They were speaking in tongues and congregations were prophesying where they didn't really do that before and we see members in the churches speaking in tongues. So we see this outpouring and it goes from in concentric circles you can say you not started in Jerusalem with the Jews and then it kinda went outward to different groups and then went out to went out to Jews who were not in Jerusalem at the time there were those who had been taught by John the Baptist, baptized by him. So they were in no they were taught but they just they just weren't ready or they want prepared to receive Christ in the know they were really looking forward to it and really quite understand. So the route and then there was different groups in this Samaritans and then you know the Naughton of the Gentiles. Basically, ultimately, so we see God working from his covenant, starting with his covenant people out to the Gentiles. And so and when you see that God is showing that this is his work. He's building his church east, laying the foundation and Christians agree wholeheartedly with the passage in Ephesians a says that that were built upon that the foundation of apostles and prophets, Christ being the chief cornerstone. We believe in that.

And so when you're building a house.

How me times to make a foundation ideally should only make a foundation once.

If it's strong enough if it's sure enough if it's stable enough.

Doesn't matter if the rest of the house crumbles of the foundation is sure enough, the foundation will stand so the foundation was built on the teachings and the doctrines of the apostles and prophets and and Christ being the chief cornerstone and we at Peter speaks of Christians as being spiritual stones being built into a spiritual house of God.

So we are built upon that foundation. So really, apostles and prophets are needed in that first century because it was a new church in which Christ was building his church. He was it was they didn't have the full biblical revelation. It took you know it it it took at least 300 years for them to really start to compile all of the New Testament relation together.

People had some people had certain letters. Some people had certain gospel and all of them. So for the entire church to get all the New Testament.

It took time and in the first century. They needed that outpouring of prophecies in tongues and the revelations, but we don't need that today we what we have is sufficient.

We know who we can learn from the biblical canon. Now we can learn who is God who is Christ and how can we know how we come to know God in Christ and how can we have a right relationship with them. How can we be saved and have eternal life.

So everything that we need to know is in Scripture now so we don't constantly need new information prophets, giving us new revelation day by day by day.

Just because we have is sufficient for salvation and into know God and second Timothy 316 through 17 says that it's sufficient to for exhortation for preaching for doctrine and for leading the man of God to all good works and to make them complete and perfected so it's it's a very powerful passages that speak to the sufficiency of Scripture. And yes, technically that's speaking of the Old Testament. At the time because I didn't really have a finished New Testament canon, but I think it's speaking broadly of all Scripture is being God breeze and is sufficient for further training us righteousness. So basically the function of apostles and prophets was finished after the first century church would built up in Christ the distended completed his work and the doctors have been taught Christian church grew in the biblical canon was completed. That's why it's really hard to want to start off by saying it's really hard to point to Scripture and say at this specific point we don't need apostles and prophets anymore. I think that's what he was. One is talking about but it doesn't give a date or time or you know or any specifics like that that II see my asks was a little bit more involved to come explain all this from Scripture why we don't have apostles earn the prophets today and why we don't really need them mentor a curveball and jerk so you speaking the role of a prophet. There's kind of to two things that they do. They can prophesy you can foretell the future by revelation from God or they can foretell right theirs for selling and forth telling. I've seen Latter Day Saints recently kinda pick up those two roles and apply it to apply them to the very obvious situation that the role of a prophet within the Latter Day Saints tradition is very different for those who came after Joseph Smith that it is for him and so they they will argue that Smith was a split was fulfilling kinda both roles as a foretell her in 1/4 teller and those who have come since him since Smith have just been fourth teller's and therefore one you still need prophets and an Intuit explains why there's such a difference between the output of Smith and and those who followed him. If it if you were challenged that way. While C missionary, what would you say Michael open to you as well ask. I actually actually came to my mind when we are taught when the right as I was finishing was like I could go into that but it but I didn't. So really glad you brought that up. But yeah, so, in the sense of having the gift of prophecy as in the New Testament is receiving direct revelation from God and speaking the infallible words of God. We don't believe that that gift behaves in out or the spirit doesn't work that gift in us today. So the preacher goes up to the pulpit and preach a sermon. He's not. He's not receiving direct communication from God through the Holy Spirit and speaking the words in that fashion but he does have, you can say that the gift of prophecy does function that sense that God the Holy Spirit aids them in forth telling. In preaching the word of God faithfully and my pastor said in in their sermons before they said it in the sense that when a pastor preaches the word of God faithfully and teaches the content of the word of God faithfully meaning the Bible, then that is the word of God so you can take it as authoritative as if it were from God is. Inasmuch as it is faithfully preaching the word of God, so that since you can say that quote unquote Christians have prophets today but is not that they don't perform all the same functions as prophets did in biblical times as you explain the unclear thing about that to I think it's a bit of a double edge sword as it is a lot of things that Latter Day Saints say are so minute that they say that the prophets today are are different there saying two things. One thing God changed that there they're not the same thing that we had in the New Testament. And so it loses a lot of its appeal right there but yeah then and then you've got, you know, kind of a dilution of of what their claiming to have which is ongoing, ongoing revelation is you don't really have that ongoing revelation. It's just fair in theory but it's not there. In reality, and so it just kinda starts to take them down to to our level. Words like you know it's like the opposite of what Matthew was saying where we can say we have prophets, but we can also say that they don't really have prophets so it definitely evens out the ground there.

It takes away I guess what makes them so special it's not really there. Yeah, I mean that was the selling point always for us. When I was on my mission a we have a man like Moses, who receives direct revelation from God East he knows and talks to God personally. So if you take that away. He's basically just I mean, so I'm never really encounter that argument. Also, maybe you can explain all the better. But it seems like what they're saying is that they can still receive revelation, but it's not like they're giving new doctrine or kinda just receiving revelation to help them teach already revealed doctrine. I guess yeah exactly the way that they've listing them try to get arounds Christians challenging them, why, why did Smith translate Scripture. Where is the sealed portion of the book of Mormon for the plates that were noted.

Smith foretold would come, come forth. Why don't you have new sections of the doctrine and covenants added every few few months. Like you did in the early years of the restoration so those that those types of challenges have kind of led some LDS colleges that I've seen online. Try to use the difference between foretelling and forth telling is a you know is a way to explain the difference between a year and a and prophets of speaking in their terms will the next thing I would tennis after that is May 9 article of faith says that we believe God will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God and if prophets are just there forth tell now how is that supposed to happen. I was more to be revealed. But I am going off off the path here just can't answer the question lately you guys answered Kathy about you you using the. The idea that God speaks to us through a prophet today and and attaching that to the idea that he loves us is just really dangerous because it if that is proof that God loves us, then works the other way to wear for thousand years of apostasy is that mainly God didn't love them because there was no profit on the earth. According to LDS theology, so that's probably the first thing that I would bring up but what I would really want to hammer in is that in my belief, God preserves his word for us because he loves us, and because the word is preserved, and because the Scripture has the power to speak to us today. We do not need prophets to give us a new revelation because we believe that like you guys have said that Scripture is sufficient and the second that you add prophets to the mix, you are saying that the Scripture is not sufficient, is just a byproduct of that. So it's reasonable. Let me make sense of the LDS church know it says in the book of Mormon that plane and precious truths were removed from the Bible and so therefore it you know it legitimizes the need for for prophets today, but if there wasn't. I believe the Bible and been corrupted then you don't really need a prophet or somebody to speak for God because the Bible does that for you so that is that is definitely the way that I would go with that without argument today right question seven think Who's Who Suisse was to ask first. This time Paul, how would you deal with the claim of apostasy and then later a restoration so one of the most interesting experiences that I had on my mission. I think I think I would counter this to you, both before but I was standing in the train station.

I was actually there was there was a train station in the center of Budapest where several metro stations also came through there still was a really good place to go on street contact people because there were always people rushing through to go to the trains or to the subway were to get up on the surface and go to buses on their way to and from work in various place that they were going so we would go there often. When I was in my first area and towards the end of my time there. I really had learned to kinda understand what people spoke back to me when I would ask them questions and I was talking to this guy and I was sharing with him passages from the Joseph Smith pamphlet was which was basically the track that we use. That was the Hungarian translation of the 1838 Joseph Smith history and I was having them read about, you know what Smith says about his experience as a young teenage speaker wanted to know which of all the churches was true. He had his father was was was his father, Methodist, or was father the Presbytery and I can't member which I think is maybe his mom and his sister were were like like the Presbyterian faith and maybe his father was a Methodist and I know his father was more universalist. Anyway, I was having them read read these passages write about going in the grove of trees to pray and to know which of all the churches were true, and I know asked. Of course I'm golden question, but you talk to ask is this an LDS missionary no. Do you you ever find yourself confused by all of the computing claims of the various churches and of course you know it's it's it's a question aimed at getting someone who secretive to answer yes the guy was talking to. So dad doesn't doesn't make a lot of sense, but there's always churches of the one God. Why would there be so many churches and so then I had them read some other passages know about Joe Smith's claim that he was upon praying to know the truth he was visited by the father and the son and told that he should join none of the churches than all the more false and that the true church would be restored right and so that I asked the guy what would you think about that is not great that God loves his children enough that he restored the true church to the earth, and his responsibility kinda took me by surprise because she said ways so you your answer to all the confusion God's answer to all the confusion and that all the many churches is to start another church, and I have never really considered it in that way before you just love those things is kind of like a lightning bolt for me and you just kinda laughed and walked away. He was done talking to me at that point for the next hour or so while I was still trying to street contact people I was running that over in my mind like yeah that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense does it.

If there is one true God who loves the world, gave his only begotten son. Why would he ever.

If that's the solution why would you ever let that fall into apostasy and to the point that it would need a restoration see that that's one way I would challenge it would just focus on into a younger version of me is just to be just or just sure that the story from my mission is to set it was like a lightning bolt went off in my head so I Matthew what would you say you encounter these arguments quite frequently when tyrant Latter Day Saints plot times you'll see in the discussion group still post something crazy that somebody did you know like you'll see some of these groups that they intentionally drink poison or are bitten by snakes to try to prove the longer ending of Mark, which is in dispute whether it's actually original or not, but the part of the debt, longer ending a market says you know, if you drink poison you know you won't you you'll still be healthy eating is a sign of the Christian.

And so is a look at this craziness is this proof of the apostasy and so for the point to some weird doctrine or some weird practice that a church that a particular Christian church practices that they think is proof of the apostasy but you really have to think about it. Okay. Did Christ ever promise that all of the church. All the believing church would be 100% doctrinally sure and going to the New Testament. I don't think he ever does that.

What he promises Matt what he promises Peter in Matthew 16 he says you know matter sorry getting names mixed up.

It doesn't help that we've got to Paul in Matthew a always apostolic names and stuff. It gets real confused so Peter says Christ is who you say that the Son of Man either sentiment M. And Peter says you are the Christ, the son of the living God, and he says blessed are you, Simon bar Jonah for his not man is give you this knowledge, but give it but it was from God and he says that upon this rock I will build my church, and so does our debate as to what this rock is whether it's talking about Peter or this confession of faith in Christ and I'm fine with either. To be honest because we do see Peter being the chief apostle in the early church, and so it does mean is Pope or anything like that but we do see that that it does say in Scripture that there. The church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, so there built on their teachings on the on their legacy on what they've the church they built up so I don't see any problem with either interpretation. Thus, side note it on this idea, or Jesus says upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. So what is promised here to Haiti that the church will not fail. It will not fall but he never promises okay there will never be any false doctrines taught my churches so what we see throughout the New Testament we see all kinds of problems in the early church doctrinally and chorus. It's just a mess. There is a man whose staying with his father's wife. We see people committing adultery received people being tempted by false Gospels.

Even the Judaizers and in Galatia there are being tempted by this gospel where you you can't become a Christian. If your Gentile honesty been circumcised and you fall the feasting on the Judy and of the Jewish laws, and then surmise everything so they're constantly being tempted by these false doctrines and and there's also a lot of scholarship that shows that Paul's epistle to the Colossians was specifically to counter the earliest Gnostics who were trying to say that Jesus did not actually come in the flesh, but he all he came as a spirit but not as in flesh form because the early Gnostics on anything related to the material world and the body has been evil and so they're trying to say Jesus look like a man, but he wasn't truly a man he just he was a spiritual divine being who looks like you just have to look like a man, and so Paul spends a lot of time explaining that not only did Jesus have a body and he's resurrected, but also that he is the creator of the earth because another Gnostic teaching was that God is the most pure and righteous being is so separated from us. We can't really know him and their intermediate eons are called spiritual beings between that one God and us and at the lowest of that of that's of that spectrum of Aon's is the demiurge which crated the earth which is basically the devil so they're kinda trying to say that the devil crated the earth and Paul's teaching know Christ is God and Christ created the earth, so we see even in the early church people were starting to believe crazy stuff right so what Paul and the others who write to these people still call them Saints, so there still kind of tempted by these weird strange doctrines, but there still holy. There still part of the church and so if you can point to someone and say all look in a crazy thing. They believe they can't possibly be Christian, I just prefer the apostasy. Well, I mean, Paul, Peter and John. They didn't think that they're in it and a great apostasy back then and they believe in some pretty crazy stuff so I don't think that you can really say that because Christians throughout time.

In the centuries have differed on different doctrines and even sometimes of God. It's a great error that that means there's apostasy.

Christ promises church would always be here and that it would remain the gates of Hades are not prevail against it. And that's true.

We still have the preserve word of God in Scripture and we still have that gospel there that anybody who reads it can understand and know how to be saved.

Know how to come to Christ, so sorry. I realize that throughout this entire discussion that my response to Ben like five or 10 minutes. It's okay.

I mean you you make up for me.

We balance each other out. This type of demand to something Matthew Sakamoto yes you brought up Matthew 1618 yeah, Matthew 1618, and the gates of Hades friend Isabel. I had some really something really interesting that I learned from Dr. Michael Heiser in his book the unseen realm about that passage, I read your last commentary on the past because it is definitely no one is just as you are noting that space used to submit the claim that the church would fall away right and but that the point that Dr. Heiser makes about I think strengthens that point even further. He says on page 281 of this book the unseen realm is this the spiritual skirmishes against the powers of darkness are evident throughout Jesus's ministry. One of the more dramatic, as described in Matthew 1613 to 20.

Jesus goes with his disciples to the district of Caesarea Philippi on the way she asked the famous?

Do people say that I am Peter answers. You are the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus commands Peter Blessed are you, Simon bar Jonah for the flesh, flesh and blood is not revealed this unto you. My father who is in heaven. I tell you you are Peter on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it to skip ahead a little bit talk. So the fact that the location of Caesarea Caesarea Philippi should be familiar from our earlier discussions about the wars against the giant clan Caesarea Philippi is adjacent to the four-part River. Nothing in this geography we can see exactly where Jesus was when he uttered the famous words about this rock and the gates of hell to Peter Caesarea Philippi was located in the northern part of the Old Testament region. The Bush on the place of the serpent at the foot of Mount Herman and finally click finish up on what he's talking about the gates of hell is really interesting is is the theological messaging couldn't be more dramatic. Jesus says he will build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. We often think of this phrase as though God's people are in a posture of having to bravely fend off statement is demons. This simply is incorrect dates are defensive structures not offensive weapons. The kingdom of God is the aggressor Jesus begins at Ground Zero in the cosmic geography of both testaments to announce the great reversal is the gates of hell that are under assault, and they will not hold up against the church.

Hell will one day be sentenced to so I think the way that Dr. Heiser puts that noting that no gates are defensive structures and if the church that is on the offensive against the gates of hell and that they will hold up against the different the defensive acts of the church makes that that claim that the church would not follow it even stronger. Asking generally thought about that for yeah I had neither. That's amazing perspective so I don't have a whole lot to add to this question because if you like you guys covered it really well. I probably wouldn't talk a whole lot about the restoration itself. I probably focus more on the apostasy because if the apostasy didn't happen and there was no restoration so I made my focus real real heavy on on that one of these.

I think this is something I struggle with, even after becoming a Christian for a long time besides the Mormon apologists you will get online and they say well you don't have a lot you a leg to stand on because you either. Catholicism has the priesthood and they have an unbroken line or else it broke and now we have the priesthood, but you know you just came out of Catholicism. You you know you don't have any authority you don't have any possibility to stand and I think it was you Matthew that was kind of got the idea in my head that you know the.

The Catholic Church hadn't fully apostatized when the Reformation happened that it wasn't until the Council of Trent wasn't that they said the sole of feet. It was anathema so that was that was definitely something you know, kind of, to look into is a whole different perspective and I mean I brought that up some latter-day Saints and they were shocked. They never heard anything like that before, but it definitely dismantles the ideas of very aggressive stance against the idea of an apostasy because swells Mormon. I can't believe that the apostasy probably happened before hundred and 80 like he was really early on that this apostasy occurred in if there was no apostasy and were not even claiming that there was an apostasy is ethically look at Protestants and they say like that's proof that there was an apostasy because they recognize that the Catholic Church was an error that it wasn't the true church and and then they tried to leave and and fix it but you know you couldn't couldn't fix it without the priest and keys and so that's why God restored them through Joseph Smith solely to hear us saying that we Catholic Church hadn't apostatized is is really something that I think they'd be unprepared for the only other thing I might mention is just, you know Pres. Nelson saying recently that you know the church is the restoration is complete, and just what that that implies you know if the restoration is not complete.

If the church is still restoring. That means that the apostasy is in over you know if Mormonism is true, then the apostasy is not completely done were still in the great apostasy so yes I think that's all my thoughts on on that. Michael also has interesting article about the restoration that you published recently so we can put that in the description and we can do that if they want to read about it. Yeah, restoring gospel think that's what I call it, I will know I'm losing my memory because I'm getting old. Catching up Paul Harry catching up so work smart as Paul just eternal being frozen in time. His kids because he died. Do you know were just no copying clips, please get a Rolodex of reactions and phrases from which pushbuttons yeah yeah he really just said like the same hundred workers that we just kind of data I'm just I'm just kidding. Hopefully people realize that that would probably be as interesting as the things I say all right, so let Matthew as you this first how do you think Cova 19 would change the conversation. I mean, we see a lot of a lot more latter-day Saints in the debate groups these days because they're not able to go out and talk to people face-to-face. So, personally, would you find it easier or harder to engage with yourself online so yeah this is one of only confused about maybe you can clarify to vent.

Do you mean like if I had an opportunity to talk to myself, you know, if you know my younger missionary self or do you mean like hoarding second what you mean yeah is if you're younger missionary self was talking to you on a debate group rather than in your house and and I was serving my mission during the Cova 19 yes yellow I think I feel kinda really bad. Foley's missionaries are in these discussion groups, because that's seems like that's kind of what most of their mission.

Their mission is now they're just kind of online and are trying to find people to talk to and see them make posted saying no assembly want to do a Bible study with me and try to get people interested that way. Talking about farm just because the hardest parts. My mission was in the office because I was doing a lot of paperwork. I was working on the legality paperwork from the missionaries, I would make sure that they yellow signatures all the paperwork they need to stay legal and other visas and everything and I was also the mission secretary says during scheduled for the Mr. president is really heart is like an office job is literally like a 9 to 5 or 96 or something and I just didn't like it you know is a missionary would be out and talking to people and meeting people and things like that so I feel really that please missionaries because they know sitting in front of a computer all day's probably not what they signed up for when they put in their mission papers so I would say would make it easier or harder. I just would probably try it slightly differently than if I were to talk myself in person, you know, I would probably try to show more empathy and say hey you know like I know that that's probably difficult for you.

Being stuck inside all day and and opting able to go out and talk to people. So try to be more empathetic than that sense and I would also try to I would try to do it. Try to talk maybe over video like were doing now just because it's so easy to take things the wrong way. I think sometimes saying something boldly can come off as being sarcastic or being offensive or aggressive. Sometimes sometimes I just want to say okay while we disagree on this and that's where we have a dividing line and so there's, you know, sometimes I'm on talking to latter-day St. get offended and say well you're saying and you know not a good person. I'm evil are you know like you just hate me or something. I might not sound same to saying we if we differ on this.

We need to talk about it in there so much communication that is verbal and and physical. You know that you don't get just your text so if artist talked myself through text only. I would have to be sure to make sure I'm in a respectful and you know just trying to talk things out logically rather than try to start a fight. So yeah probably would talk myself slightly differently online through text only, rather than in person for sure pollutes your thoughts. Yes, interesting. I talked earlier about showing hospitality assistance to do online. I think Matthew made a good point about maybe doing video and and Michael United you know we were admins in a Facebook discussion group for latter-day Saints and evangelicals, and we've had this conversation right with the admin team should be allow the missionaries into the group and the LES Adventists feel pretty strongly that we shouldn't that is not is not conducive to what the what their purposes and also that they probably are not prepared to be in a debate group and I think that's probably true, but at the same time. I remember when I first started studying at since a Christian University. I was really curious about that goes back to the American restoration movement and Alexander Campbell one of the earliest critics of the book of Mormon and of course they have periodicals to go back to you know the early years of of latter-day St. restoration is really curious to what kind of references are there to latter-day Saints in the in those early periodicals. So I spent one evening in the library looking up every reference I can find to Mormons in those early American restoration movement periodicals and I found a really interesting article that was about a missionary LDS missionary coming into town and challenging the local pastors to debate, and you know the God they all gathered together in one of one of the town's churches in the LDS missionary no held court against the rest of the other pack Christian pastors that were there and it was really about that was kind of interesting because it made me think well you know what, that's a different way of doing missionary work that I was ever taught to do you know to go and adjust challenge challenge pastors and and and hold debate. So in some sense I think you know if if if the missionaries today are unprepared for debate. They really should be out and I die. But I do recognize that there going out younger than even we went out right because the minimum age is changed. But if the LDS church can send them out especially mission in the covert era where they have to be online, they really should be prepared prepared for it. That's not to say that I think that all debate groups are helping places for them because they're probably not but you know the one where Marie's member try to keep a respectful tone try to admin pretty pretty heavy hand in case were anybody's connecting out of line so I think they should be for just the only opportunity that they have to try to get their message across.

They should be challenged and that message in terms of what I find it easier or harder to engage with myself online. I find it harder because as Matthew noted you lack all of the social cues that you have a person that lets a person know that you are not not being sarcastic. You not being a jerk you know that the things that you lose with just straight text conversation online. I have engaged some missionaries online and find it to be a little bit harder than in person conversation yeah I mean I totally agree.

I find it very difficult to talk to missionaries online and like you are saying little little bit ago. Matthew I feel really really bad for them to because you grow up, your whole life and you have this picture of what a mission is is going to be and it's this exciting adventure and to just have to sit there on a computer. It is just must be a let down a really big letdown. So yeah, I do. I do feel a lot of sympathy for for the missionaries you have any go through that.

But yeah, like Paul, like you are saying Matthew in be really hard for me to talk to myself online, especially in the debate groups you know what ends up happening.

Yeah, you lose a lot of the social cues when you're talking online. The other thing that happens to you as you have a much harder time having a one-on-one conversation because you know maybe it starts off as a one-on-one, but then other people start jumping in and starting their arguments and then pretty soon you just got no amount of people from both sides going at it and then then missionary you were talking to me just say no. Is anyone notice if I walk away from this conversation now so if I were given talk to missionary one-on-one or to myself. My younger self.

I would deftly want to do it in a video so they were not being interrupted by other people. We just have that that heart-to-heart conversation. I just don't think it's I think that Internet you know forum debating it really does lose a lot of that that potential that you you have when you're talking to somebody one-on-one. I mean it's great because you can know research your articles in and pull them up and things but I mean I can still say him to send you some things to read. After this discussion and I like your opinion on it next time we meet. All you need that instantaneous you know posting things because it just kind of distracts in the middle of a conversation so that's what I think about it taking the conversation ensued like private message.

I think that's that's better yeah I don't really have a problem with taking the conversation into a private message as long as you know, you have the time to do it. I think that's why when the reason I prefers having a real-time one-on-one conversation because autism really busy person to so these are from you set aside the time and say I'm good for this hour. On this day as opposed to we have this ongoing conversation and this cannot last for like five minutes every day and then I lose where I was going with something in you just can compact a lot more a lot more power you know into a short, even a short discussion that you having one-on-one know for like 30 minutes with somebody. Nothing is more powerful than an ongoing messenger discussion with some missionary for this is my opinion that I didn't interesting have. It's fascinating. It's something of an interesting theme.

I've seen Christians see them can argue all don't think it sometimes missionaries will invite people to go to fix something up in a private conversation and assume some Christians in the debate groups say I don't do that. That's how they get you know I dislike will are you afraid to talk to anybody who might be your friends about the gospel like telling you that I don't understand yet, I think there's probably just the hope that if we keep it in the in the discussion forum that if I do get corner about the safety net of having my other brothers in here with me.

I think that maybe a compromise to that is to say, hey, you know, I am assuming that these missionaries online still have companions but I don't know how that works now but hey you know what I bring my friend in will have a two on two conversation.

I mean I think that's still way better than you know it 100 on 100 conversation is just like any go anywhere. So I will go and move on to the next question here.

How would you deal with your younger self giving you the Moron I challenge saying that you could pray over the book of Mormon and receive an answer that it is true, and I'll start with Paul on this one. I would say that I've done it in front on the challenge. I think what should be considered by missionaries is that Latter Day Saints are taught especially if you're born and raised in the church you taught from the time you're in the cradle when you start primary that God speaks in certain ways and their ways that are described in uniquely Latter Day Saints terms in terms of the burning and the buzz and that's not the site.

Uniquely Latter Day Saints writing 24 but the way that its use within the document covenants in reference to the book of Mormon and translating all recovery trailer in the book of Mormon. Specifically you that there's there's a certain ways that you are taught you will receive the answer from the time that your young right so when I was getting ready to leave on my mission and had been born and raised in the LDS church had graduated seminary and realized you know hey if I'm in a go out and teach this religion that is mined by birth, I should probably have my own witness, but it's true.

Of course I got down on my knees and I printed about the book of Mormon, but what should be noted there is that it's very emotionally fraught situation that I was in and I suspect that a lot of Latter Day Saints were made when they actually get down to praying about the book of Mormon there in similar situations right there wanting to know truth there wanting to know if what they have been taught is true there, wanting to know if especially for going on a mission there wanting to know what I was so this is very emotionally fraught situation and and I do think that psychologically you can manifest as an experience than people in other religions do that as well. It doesn't it's not. It is not an indicator of truth and if it was there. Then, from my perspective, I would not have continued to doubt that experience and I doubted it for that very reason.

But I realized that I experienced exactly what I've been told over and over and over and over again that I would experience and I wanted something more than that.

Now I know Latter Day Saints would say oh you are questioning your spiritual experience. But I think it's wise to question a spiritual experience that is exactly what you were told over and over and over again, you would experience when you did a certain thing assessing the situation where I was staring down mission, leaving in two months and then really no feeling emotionally like man I'm going out to teach the world this thing so I need to know myself. So if it is or was it really was a spiritual experience from God.

I don't think I would've continued to doubted throughout my mission and would've continued to pray for a witness that that didn't come that that's really interesting and fascinating. I mean to talk about it as kind of an emotional response that you can generate. Maybe that explains why it never worked. When I did it, you know, because I don't have any feelings so I can't just submit to being a psychopath, so Matthew what are your thoughts on this question, and we might have to do some investigation in California. There might be a slew of unsolved murders there that we can provide some evidence for it is Michael oh you said I had to go cover up some evidence yeah I think Paul had a lot of really good points are and yeah so to to kind of go off what you saying that this can be kind of a manufactured or a forced experience. Now, as I was praying for months for a confirmation of the book of Mormon.

I did feel that I had come.

The burning in the pleasant experience, but I don't. I think it was you Paul in your story where you talk about how if you kind of focus on you know having that feeling you can kind of feel that burning or that that tingling feeling you can kinda reproduce it on command. Even if you're not really praying or anything. There a lot of times where I had similar doubts there's after my mission, though where you know you be watching a Disney movie or a very emotional movie where the music is very enthralling a lot since you pitch gets high know it starts really tugging at your heartstrings and eat start to feel that same tingling in the same burning that I had when I was reading the book of Mormon and praying about it and so sometimes I wonder identical. How do I differentiate those feelings listening to the spirit because I know that the spirit is not telling me that frozen is a true recounting of actual right so that kind of always stuck out in my mind so I asked myself okay will if if if you can have the same exact feelings. In other circumstances where not praying or not having a spiritual experience for your just listening to music or will you watch a movie or just looking at nature and things like that you know is God telling you that every all those experiences are critical. True, you know, so and then I would also go through Scripture.

You know the heart the passages where it says the heart is deceitful and wicked you know who can know it know that that the fallen man's heart or adjustment men's hearts in general are corrupted and that were easily turned back and forth by our emotions and God has given us a great blessing of having a mind having an intellect and so I'm not saying that I think sometimes maybe in the Western church we go a bit too far away from feelings and say you know there you should just completely discount them whatsoever in think about only logical, rational arguments for the faith because I think there you can have a spiritual experiment experience that confirms her faith, but but – should not be the primary Compass for what is truth. Truth is consistent.

Truth is rational and we should not believe in anything that is irrational at something that Dr. Spruill said he said in I would certainly never ask anybody to believe in something that's irrational or illogical meaning it breaks the laws of logic. You know like if you were to try to got there and say that Jesus is not God and he is God simultaneously. Let's hope that takes a lot of conch non-contradiction. That's a contradiction you can't say Jesus is God and not God. He's either one or the other so faith estimate and a faith as be based upon rational principles and sometimes we don't understand everything, but I would just say to myself, do you really understand what the Bible teaches, or do you only think you understand what the Bible teaches and have you compared what the LDS church teaches as compared to the Bible because if you're if you're gonna say that your religion is the restored gospel and that it's the same gospel taught the Bible wife you've never really studied the Bible in depth or referral. He studied out the arguments for Christians and how can you really know that for sure. How do you know that the same gospel. Your teaching is the Gospels with the Bible teaches. So really study it, understand it and understand the arguments the Christians are making and evaluate that against the book of Mormon doctrine and covenants with the LDS church teaches stuff and stuff. I was, I just cannot have this epiphany. You know that I'm not the only one that needs to go to an asylum because for the last like our we've all been talking about talking to ourselves so yeah I'm the only one who's crazy here. My strength right so what what I will respond with to the more my challenge is probably some of my own experiences that led me out of the church because it wasn't just logical things at a family member that try to tell me that I intellectualize my way out of the church and I said you know it was just as much your virtual as it was doctrinal for me is because I had a couple of dreams where I felt like God was telling me to leave the church sign probably talk about those things and that is you know that is a stalemate at that point because you know you can have God telling them that the church is true, and then telling me that it's not true and I need to leave it and so at that point you know you've reached an impasse. You can't reach an answer by by a spiritual confirmation. But what I would kinda go to next is ultimately the spiritual experiences by themselves cannot be trusted. If you look at Mark 1322 says for false Christ's and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible even the elect and I can point out a couple of instances where this has occurred.

You look at the story of Moses and the Exodus you know the Pharaoh's magicians were able to do a lot of the same miracles initially that Moses was able to do. They threw down their staffs and they became snakes. They were able to turn water into blood and so would've been really easy to look at those guys and say oh you know they've got God on their side and then camera with us going with that, exactly, but I think it is you got statement to this says he's transformed into an angel of light and so it is certainly possible that that there could be signs that can be wonders, there can be a book that causes the burning in the bosom. You know, even if it isn't just an emotional feeling.

It still doesn't prove that the church is true and so I just I couldn't possibly take the risk of balancing my testimony on a church or my salvation on the high wire of subjective feeling that I get from taking on a challenge that is just too much of a risk for me. You know, it would have to line up with with the Scriptures and would have to be logically feasible as well like for me the idea like Morris County doesn't say anything about study the Scriptures and and tested against the Bible is just not there because what they're trying to do is in the same you'll just forget about all your objections forget about the logic and and this is the only thing that matters in. I just would build except at this point you have viewed very differently. Okay, so one could question him and maybe maybe it's too much because, regarding, and Kelly boat. You know a letter to St. will probably ask you return.

If you're to say that well how do you know the Bible is true. You know, didn't didn't didn't you pray about it. Like how do you know it's true instead of the other could honor another holy book and think I talked about this in our second in our second series on what it what it what about Scripture, but maybe just a quick rebuttal to that. How would you answer the know the Bible is true.

If it's not just about praying about it. Yeah, I mean this is a big difference. First of all, between the evidence you know the manuscripts that we have between the Bible and the book of Mormon and is not something that I just have to pray about, because we've got the Dead Sea Scrolls and got all the text for the King James King James Bible. We've got and then what they have is nothing for the book of Mormon. Just a convenient story that that the and I took it from the earth. Not if they've got. I guess you guys. I used to kinda talk about the three witnesses like it was this foolproof.

You know evidence that the book of Mormon is you know this undefiled pure text but you know you and that testimony doesn't say let everything that was written in that book was translated correctly or you know so it just it just doesn't compare to the Bible at all its apples to oranges. They can't make that argument with me. That's my quick rebuttal discount.

I would say to its it seems like you're being letter states are asking us to believe the book of Mormon without without any evidence in the Bible saying were giving you plenty of evidence to believe it is. There's lots of good reasons to believe it, but dinner the day people will still reject it because of what it teaches because of the content. The spiritual message that you cannot be saved without Christ.

So there was still always be people rejected even with the evidence. But God is asking us to believe in something without any kind of support for it.

It's it's a rational faith that were calling people to to embrace right and that it goes against what the what the Bible says so. I mean if it might be a different story.

You know they might build a summary on it. If it actually did align with the Bible hundred percent.

But even if it did I'd probably still say will why do I need this book. If aligns with the Bible. So either it's not needed or its false and you know that's that's one of the reasons we hold to the sufficiency of the word of God, I mean and I know that one of Mormon would say is like will I bet that you know if if Revelation had been written yet and you lived back then you wouldn't accept the book of Revelation, because you would be saying well then everything else was insufficient before Revelation so that's that's kinda what were dealing with their and it is a tougher a tough argument so I don't know if you guys have a rebuttal for that mean the idea that if you're in the first century that he did have a complete Bible. So how could you say Scripture sufficient.

As I Carson yeah because that's where the apologist will save all the time. Last one minute like we talked about there were still people with the gift of prophecy. They were receiving Revelation, even as the New Testament was being written. So there was continuing so there was kind of two sources of Revelation. I guess you can say during that time there was the revelation of God the Holy Spirit inspiring the inspired authors of Scripture, but there were still prophets in the church that were seen Revelation and Paul talks like that a lot in first Corinthians, when he gives him directions as to how that's supposed to work and I shall have two or three that speak and they should speak one at a time and if you're speaking in tongues you should have an interpreter like anything and then yesterday and and and even it like you said there were a lot of people it didn't accept Revelation account took time. There's a really great series by Dr. Michael Kruger. He's kind of the expert on the New Testament Canon ease there's us a free series online reformed theological seminary. I guess I can leave the link in the description on the YouTube video but he basically talks about how there was a core set of New Testament books that were accepted in all pre-much immediately, including the Gospels, and then there were some that were accepted by some, but not by all.

Some of them were contested and then there were some that took a little bit longer to be accepted so that the development of the bit the New Testament can is a big topic to talk about. Even then, if thing that we have four Gospels.

They all pretty much teach the same stuff, especially the synoptic Gospels Matthew Mark Luke, so thought you needed all of them to know the message of Christ. If you had one of them you would have sufficient information to know Christ isn't to believe in Christ. So even without the entirety of either the 27 books New Testament or the 39 books of the Old Testament or all 66. If you have all of them. You still have sufficient information to know Christ isn't to come to Christ for salvation. And that's the beauty of the Gospels like you don't need a 50 step program and all these yellow millions of ordinances and commandments have to live in have to be attached to this one specific organization. You know the gospel free faith and repentance in Christ, is how we how God gives us your grace eternal life.

So it's a very simple gospel, even a child can understand it was. It's also another one of those double-edged swords right because what you say you know that when the 1835 book commandments was published by the LDS church that no food the saints to later had the boot broader doctrine and covenants that the earlier seems to have the whole truth. You stated today by Pres. Nelson. Doesn't the restoration is content. I mean, you know it's it's a double-edged sword right when you ultimately have to come down to is is God sovereign is God acting in history, and if so and if God is sovereign, then the way that God brought about the development of the New Testament Canon and the closing of the Canon is according to God's will. Otherwise, you're arguing that God is not sovereign over history and I don't know the that even a latter-day St. would want to argue that with the opening so anything so either in the except the Canon is funny too because if you think about it. The New Testament Canon wasn't finished it wasn't you know widely universally accepted in in in in its entirety until at least three or 400 A.D. right well if the church Artie been an apostasy by the end of the first century.

Why should they trust the New Testament as we have it today. You know it was it was canonized by the great abominable charts, so why should we. Why should they even accept the Canon except for the fact that I guess Joseph Smith is was there a doctor and covenants section where Joseph Smith prayed and said that the Bible is the word of God. All I guess you do have that in articles of faith also. But I guess they do have an independent source Revelation to verify love anyway I just thought that I had yeah all the all really good thoughts guys kind jumped as a the last question here is kind of the opposite of one of the other questions that we we ask what what advice would you give yourself it was your last day on the mission and you are about to go home will start with Matthew on this one.

There's a story that I wanted to tell you guys in it and I thought about Smit don't just briefly shared here so I had the same mission president from intermission until like the last month and that was we had a new mission president so he was brand-new in the mission. You know was still getting his feet wet didn't really know any of the missionaries is weird because I had my last interview with him and I was in the same city with two sister missionaries were also going home that same transfer and to make it easier. He basically said he sent.

He set up the final interviews on the same day and my companion stayed in that city. Charleroi and Belgium and I went on the train with the other two sisters to the mission headquarters to talk to the president so everybody was give me a hard time there was like six missionaries in the same building so all the missionaries are give me a hard time be like a enjoy your date with the sisters later as it was such a weird experience going on that train the trainer articles 2 sisters just us three is really weird but so yeah, I remember the last day going home and being excited and scared and you know wanting to start college and all that other stuff but not just say to myself hey you know going through what I knew what I went through after my mission was a really hard time and so it's hard to talk to myself I just say look, you you've done a great thing with your mission and don't worry about feeling like you have to be the same person tomorrow as you are today because things are going to drastically change your life is going to change you spent two years doing what you felt was right in serving in an doing missionary work, but that's not how it's it's not going to be the same way.

After that, your livestock, you not to be you will. You might want to be a missionary like you are now, but socket to be the same. So just go with that understanding that that understanding that and don't worry about getting married immediately. Don't worry about you know the pressure of getting married is or is a return missionary you know just to stay focused on on their life goals single college and the things that you want to set up for the future and don't get down on yourself because ice I beat myself up every day when I got home, you know, I thought I had such a hard time. I was begging my bishop for calling. I felt like God is rejecting me and I was like what's going on. You know I just felt like I try to serve the Lord. The best I could. It's nothing was going right for me. So just like this to comfort and outcome for myself and say hey you know it's can be rough but it doesn't mean you're bad missionary does mean you're you know you're a terrible person or that you know that you brought God's wrath upon you or something is good to be a hard time adjusting to home life and this can take time and so you just needed be patient and not beat yourself up over sauce probably were outside right hope you don't mind Paul but I'm gonna jump in the middle of this one and let you and because you always finish the strongest, but I think I think about something myself and it was my last day on my mission a couple of things I would tell myself is first of all, like Katie or Molly doing to the dating world don't use the same tactics that you're using as a Mormon missionary.

That's creepy. The next thing I would say is don't cycle the yeah but it worked right you married every person you dated dated two people because I couldn't get a second, I would say don't expect to be in a celebrity anymore or even really care about that much. After a month of going home, you know, people just argument a view you that way anymore. You know, and I'd probably say you know there's can be a lot of things that are going to come up ended up working working for a one of the leaders of the local church and realize that he was a very different man in the workplace that he wasn't with the church. So one of things I would tell myself is do you examine the fruits of the fruits matter. Don't just sweep them under the rug and I was very, much no blinder that is like it's all the doctrine it doesn't matter how bad the people are but the truth is that enough fruit does indicate that something is wrong. You know a good tree cannot produce fruit as I would say that something that you need to look at and then last of all, I would say that I would give myself to the solution you know I wouldn't tell myself about imputed righteousness. I don't think but I think I might give myself the problem and say you know you've you really started to learn about doctrine and learn about debating with with evangelicals and there is this is this one problem that is going to be your life's challenge and you need to learn how to come up with an answer for it and that is the impossible gospel argument, and I'd probably just tell myself what that is and and just leave myself with that because I know that that would be the catalyst eventually. For me, leaving the church and in finding more truths. Learning about your forensic righteousness and in double imputation so that's what I would tell myself so is a tough question going home from my mission was one of the hardest things are not really in those two years came to love the Hungarian people but Hungarian culture of my companions the regimen of being a missionary day in and day out, in and out of the apartment. You know, going to appointments knocking on doors, talking to people on the street really come to love it and so making that transition back to normal life was tough and you guys talk about that both of you did some refocus some advice on what I would say to my younger self or any missionary from Latter Day Saints with going home from their mission.

I would say that you spent two years trying to teach people that the church saves particular church saves and I would say that no church saves talked about earlier. You know there are people sitting in the pews of every congregation, any of the Orthodox Christian denominations or those that are no outside of theological orthodoxy.

There are people sitting in in the pews of every church that you may pass driving down the road who are not saved who have not been born again. The New Testament is very clear that the experience of being born again is an experience with the sun having been drawn to him by the father and if you look through the pages of the New Testament and read through it.

Every experience that I that an individual has with the sun is by the drawing of the father to the stop is not a church and I'm not arguing that church being part of the local church and be engaged as a believer in the local church is not important. New Testament teaches that is also very important, but being part of the church is not what saves you and is a missionary just sent two years of your life teaching people that it is and I would challenge you to in your mind and in your study challenge the premise and see what you find.

All right, that's a wrap recently sent them with the special guest Jordan requires a full-time Christian missionary from Latter Day Saints. People with try Christmas recently from Utah will be releasing our conversation with Jordan is a bonus episode on Wednesday, September 30 you want to join us fireflies of the out of please visit the out of right field free to send us a message that send a message and appreciated the page like we also have an out of right is another can also send this on to hear from you soon, subscribe to the other brightness podcast on Cass box cast the modified stitcher.

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If you like it shortly right great also connect with Michael just one lungs and sometimes Poland as well. Music for the other brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page. It Adams Road ministry.com.

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