What About Religious FREEDOM & RESPECT?

Your right and cold hot button for A6. I remember during the 2012 US presidential election season, when Pastor Robert Jeffress was asked about the Republican former Romney stated the Mormonism is a cult to make the rounds on cable news programs to clarify that he views Mormonism as a quote unquote theological cult distortion of Christianity, but not the type of sociological culture represented by people sent temple or like Heaven's Gate, is a former Mormon who is now an evangelical Christian, I would using the word: reference to Mormonism because I don't think it's helpful, but in 2011 when Jeffress made his comments. I'd only been out of the LDS church for little over year and I was intrigued by his clarification with regards to Mormonism being a theological cult even when that distinction is made. Christians can sometimes have sociological cults in mind when talking about Mormonism or to Mormons and one can hardly blame them, they see in the news. Things like Warren Jeffs and his trials related to the fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which really does operate like a sociological cults. We see stories like a murder case against Chad Bella Maury Balogh in the deaths of Lori's children Jocelyn timely. Some of the details of that case seem to point to date on Balogh being involved in a subculture within Mormonism that has socio-sociological cultlike qualities, members of the mainstream LDS church in Salt Lake City bristle at the dreaded C word being used in reference to their religion. They ask why such an offensive term has to be used at all with regard to their religion when it comes to the distinction of the estimated protest that they are Christians to the people should just leave them alone about their beliefs. Some people who have left the LDS church and harbor anger also tossed the turnaround without any distinction. This topic elicits strong emotions among Latter Day Saints. If you're listening and you're feeling your blood beginning to boil. Stay tuned going to be respectful. That's always what we aim for here on the outer brightness podcast today were talking about whether or not there is any warranty using the term theological cult in red in reference to Mormonism LDS article of faith states we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege.

Let them worship how we are or what they may hear to help us untangle just why the term theological cult without sociological baggage may be appropriate is Jimmy Howard German is a Christian pastor at Orchard Hills Bible Church in Payson Utah, Germany.

Welcome to the outer brightness podcast when she tells little about little bit about yourself and about Orchard Hills Bible Church yeah so like the Pioneer Mormons goal. I made the trek from Missouri to you.my wife and I are both from Missouri and now over six years ago, about six nap years ago and we came out here to help with church lamellae Payson Bible church in Payson 1970 so there's no point in history. There and it's been great love with God's home address. Now in our burden and really didn't suit your course evangelized to reach our community for Christ but also just to do our part discipling believers that are air a lot of the churches here. Small and black resources, and so we wanted to be part of the solution there, strengthening the trip costs introduction so Germany also has a podcast called do theology which he does with his friend Ken. They recently did a series of episodes discussing the chart the German created that brackets primary, secondary and tertiary doctrines. I very much enjoy those episodes under podcast and thought that the charter can serve as a useful framework for our discussion today and will put up a link to Jeremy's chart within our show notes before you jump in your chart jamming.

What are your thoughts on the introduction is is using the word: helpful in any sense when sharing the gospel Latter Day Saints well, so much of what is helpful when talking to Latter Day Saints and on the letter to say that is not a monolith out there and so that I think generally know we we try not to use the word cults when sharing the gospel with them proclaiming the good news of Christ. It does elicit so many strong emotions and would take so much exclamation in that those types of conversations that might not be out and theologically sharp to be able to do that and that podcast episode like this is a great place to hash it all out understanding of what I will say that no in-house as far as Christians training other Christians in thinking through world religions that the word cult very appropriate not just for one active people, but for now it a large swath of religious people who do that. That definition of Colton, so it I think context is really important that the Latter Day Saints talking to perhaps doing the work that person understand where you're coming from but definitely in-house.

I think it's appropriate use of board Michael Matthew introduction. Do you remember when Robert Jeffress Jeffress made his comments in Hong Kong become a media firestorm. I do remember that and the fact that he was calling it a theological cult to me as a latter-day St. at the time didn't seem to put the fire out as far as I was concerned I was still pretty upset about it. You know I'm like okay you just playing with semantics now. I mean you still use the see where you still called us to call you know, I'd like that's is not okay event plan to run your bookable I think that I was already kind of writing a biblical defense Mormonism but things like that were definitely adding fuel to the fire. You know Mike, I'm going to prove these guys wrong. Yeah, Matthew or you're probably still in diapers them to do. Remember law.

Wow, thanks for that Paul and I appreciate it.

Now's not. I was kind of out of the game. At that point in 2011. Just because I was his May is probably my most busy year in my undergraduate program. The January and engineering is always really rough so I was I was kind of aware of some of the things are going on at the election cycle, but not.

I honestly don't number them saying that, but I'm sure I would've taken it if I did hear that.

I don't know. You know, like you said, I think I think most of this are sensitive to the C word, so I probably would've taken offense to it, you know, Matthew.

If you need to come back for Paul.

It said he'll be in diapers in the year or so after while Michael nice eyes so we really are charging me when when did you create your chart and why was his purpose and can you give our listeners, brief description of the chart there. I created the chart 1000 Bible college when all people are at the pinnacle of theological understanding.

I was interning as a youth pastor at a church and had a very small modesty group and I became aware me that, especially in fundamentalist Christian circles, but in all Christian circles Mike on yourself and that people always lots of importance on the doctrines that want to place a lot of importance on and then production just kinda like there over there and when we get to get some kind of thing and sometimes that's okay and it's like you were really emphasizing something that was kind of uncertain and were rejecting neglecting us a better term, the gulping things that Scripture is really clear on this exit, big. So what I did was I made this chart that's been the fine sonnets that is and investment, primary, secondary, doubtful primary doctrine lays out Christian orthodoxy. Secondary doctrine lays out these doctrines that are a result of exegesis, but they aren't definitional to Christianity be so weak and absolute discretion to disagree but still be available in the third column. Doubtful things are personal conscience issues like do you do you eat meat, do you have a sip of alcohol do you listen to certain types of music that that sort of thing that people get really fired up about and what I did when I first came up with that idea felt like that was good direction to go is when I was with that you provide may be the poster board sheets that reflected the three columns and we made them all cut out slips that had different doctrines on and we gave the the big poster boards. The two groups is the two groups and we gave them a little slips of doctrines that okay no place the doctrine where it needs to go.

They each had like 15 doctors and what came out of that is one of the groups put abortion in the third call of doubtful and that was the moment quick for me like okay we need to talk about this more that you so often we talk about things as we go through Scripture verse by verse. But we neglect to talk about the importance of things we turn it away from the phrasing essential and nonessential.

But what is of first importance. That's the biblical way of grace and so that's what the podcast is about the chart is about stressing ones of first importance what is not, and then how to navigate this Christian life making appropriate calls on four listeners. I can recommend highly enough emphasis on the geology podcast where we German can go through the chart. There's probably my thing for five episodes devoted to and it's it's very useful information in terms of understanding into one of those things that are primarily the things that Christians, regardless of denomination agree on a line on one of those things are secondary and one of those things that are kind of opinion is German was was mentioning so recommend that you if you're interested in something like that. Go ahead and give those episodes listen okay Jeremy Austin and ask questions so Latter Day Saints, they will often say, hey I believe in Jesus, who lived and preached in Palestine died and was resurrected does not make me a Christian.

So how would you respond to such assertion must believe many of those things. The pilot. Nero they believe many of those Jehovah's Witnesses believe all those things and you know they're not Christian they are not born-again and mere acknowledgment of facts is not what makes somebody Christian what makes somebody a Christian is genuine. They, in repentance. The living God. As a result of the gospel and you know if we set aside the definitional disagreements that we have Latter Day Saints.

We have some very significant disagreements of definition who Jesus is, what he accomplished on the cross we set those aside and say nothing agree on definitions and some installments that state. I believe that uses Princeton died and rose again. That doesn't mean horrible Christian. The only thing that makes someone a Christian is that that person has been justified by faith in the gospel that they asked to be a genuine faith in the true gospel acknowledging facts doesn't mean anything.

They true faith means every so from there, you know, we do need to get the definitions with the Latter Day Saints because of the fact is the Jesus they talk about the same that we got our conversation to have loved the mansard conversation is a follow-up with a quick observation tonight whenever and whenever I talked Latter Day Saints to have the topping assembly by the same gospel even know he was born of the Virgin Mary and I preach the gospel he died, rose the third day etc. etc. but I was go back to. I think the epistles of the New Testament are so important, I mean primarily use either of the epistle to the Galatians that the Judaizers they could affirm everything that the Christians were affirming, they say, how we believe the gospel lewdly leaving crises or Messiah that was prophesied for so long, but if you're Gentile, you just need that one thing you know you just need to be circumcised and everything's fine. You know, and part of really strong words to say about just adding one little thing to the gospel confusing about adding just that one little thing the gospel when you there's also no discussion but what are they also trying to enforce the various Jewish calendar and things like that but it seems like they were destroying these tidal things of the gospel.

But Paul had merely said there were fallen from grace are cut off from God. And so if were just just adding one tiny little thing the gospel can cut you off from grace. I mean just compare that's all the doctrines that were added in that you know the clinical restoration of the LDS church. There's just so many new drop doctrines are added. So anybody when you think about that or would you agree with that. Certainly yeah we there's no doubt that were dealing with two fundamentally different.

That would, at the end of the day. I had some dialogue with Jackson Washburn with the lips of the geology podcast that where we went through and talk about some of those things long the questions I asked and was why do some Latter Day Saints want to be seen as Christians even really seem to have much of an experience with that circle, but I certainly see it out here where so many of our neighbors want to say you believe in Jesus will Christians but the reality of it is said the added doctrine because of the added Scripture because of the claims, the founder we are dealing with two totally different religions, even if people say the name Jesus doesn't say the name Jesus told witnesses say the name Jesus forms the cost of we have to recognize that a fundamental level music for current malicious either not the same gospel execute for Friday after he not answer my question. I wouldn't have been that the podcast notes but I figured it was a good follow-up. Things I do for a living. Yes mentioned to you like I talked to Latter Day Saints quite a bit and they'll pull the unit. We believe in Jesus to card, or aren't we also Christiansen, one of the places that I tend to go on I can want your thoughts on this Jeremy but all will often say you know it's it's not about the religion or what church you're going to it's about your faith in Christ is completely personal thing and and it's a different way of thinking about it than when you're Latter Day Saints is clearly assets nonprime in the church.

I am holding a temple recommend. You know you look around and you say everybody here is going to the celestial kingdom recently were all can have eternal life in him. In my experience it's it's really personal, and I can't look around.

Even at my church and assume that everybody there has that personal relationship with Christ and I can assume that everybody in the ward doesn't have that relationship with Christ. And so I think it just changes the dynamic coming. Do you think that would be a route that you would go or that you would recommend going with the Latter Day Saints a hard thing to remember that Scripture does.

They lost people are bright and their death.

So that's what makes of this with every gospel conversation a challenge is that we are relying solely on the spirit of God and that are American perspective affect disposable short.

But there is a reality that in a sense on the system and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints standing near you're told what to wear where to go what Hollister you're told all those things and use the part of the system and it is very impersonal and then you want to experience the Christian life like you didn't have we come to realize the freedom that's in Christ. How organic a local church really is how God is building his church. This living organism and it's a totally different experience in it is good to express those things to them that I'm sure there are many Latter Day Saints out there like a part of the system feel hollow more whole religious experience, but if they're not given eyes to see your ears that you there's never been a unit that's work morning Jeff hey man, it is is an interesting save a lot of friends out here is kept in close contact with and still have a good relationship with really fascinated by the other Protestant life. You know, and so the last a lot of questions and you assign one of them, like yeah we struggle to find a church, you know, when around three or four or five churches before finally settling down and he's like you, I never thought about that you having to use agency.

You know you decide where to go because there's so many different factors than you know it is just it just blew his mind because it wasn't something he ever had to think about, you know where my going to go to church and why am I going to go there is just manufactured. So, good point.

They have agency and all things except her and what callings you will have and what you will wear to church all that I want to go and asking the next question here. We stopped before on the outer brightness podcast about how Christians are united on the essentials by your chart.

Jeremy those are first column issues correct. What are some of the big essentials on which Christians and Mormons are not united yet so like a place that I like to use the word of first importance or primary. More than that.

In this digital though essential symbols, but but yeah I mean when it comes to defining what Christianity is.

It's defined by doctrines and it's certain doctrines, we can't say that every doctrine out there is definitionally Christianity because of how you end up with all rules that endings dictated under the weather. This will freedom of interpretation. There's no freedom of expression, but when it comes to how we are how we differ from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints of primary doctrines, the reality of it is every single one of them disagree because of our definition. There is literally not one primary doctrine that I can say we agree on.

Because our definitions all the way that those particularly their church has chosen to interpret certain things and so for a lot of them.

They want to dispute that it will argue with that. I bought Latter Day Saints 31 Bible verse to agree on the definition and that evil raises eyebrows but it's true.

So just see the old Mormon apologists and me is like wanting to jump out right now like the what about the would you say that the resurrection is not an essential doctrine that we agree on with Mormons.

Is there a definition difference there was the one who walked out of the great Jesus's brother so yeah I mean when it comes down to it you don't agree that the same person walked out of the great that's true I can I can fight you any more on that I can follow up on the two because a lot of times lettuces will push back and say well we believe in the same Jesus right we just believe different things about him you know. So how would you rebut that argument. Jeremy yeah well if he's not God than that absolutely drastically utterly thoroughly destroys my entire world.

So we want to try to minimize this nature by saying well you can believe these God or believe that these are not the one true child. Now you can believe either way you're trivializing something that is of first importance that changes absolutely everything cannot trivialize the unity of Jesus Christ because he is the one true God. That really does change it so it's hard to know I found when talking with Latter Day Saints in the groups that I I'm kind of a more when I was on SNL's Marva McConkie. I know I liked. I really like the hard lines in the sand. You know like work here, you're there. I'm not try to blur the lines you know you are part of secular Christendom, which is apostate etc. etc. and now it's like when I don't Latter Day Saints. They save so many things I never would've affirmed has Artie saying I never heard in church like I try to make the distinction between like you are saying Creole Christians. Orthodox Christmas. We believe that Christ has eternally been God he can find plenty of quotes where there are Latter Day Saints prophets and apostles were they say that Christ is a spiritual offspring are spiritual child of a low game and he attained unto godhood and I even made him a note on Facebook because only people fought against that that I had to just copy paste that will" all the time and they say no. We believe Jesus has eternally been God and I'm like why it's like I didn't bleed as letter to say I believe that you know this consolation is that not everybody know there's a process of attaining godhood than you have children and then your child attains godhood and that he becomes a Savior, etc. etc. and scan a continuing cycle. So what is this idea of Jesus being eternally God and not any sane mind and it's really difficult because I think there's blurring on both lines of the divide I think there's Christians that want to kind of invite Mormons in the folding kind of fellowship with them.

Despite all these doctrinal differences and then there is Latter Day Saints. The want to be considered Christians, along with the rest of us. So it's really difficult to kind of interact Latter Day Saints to witness to them and for all doing agree on the same group together. I wish there were more McConkie-ites. That's a lot easier in conversation when the differences are recognized but man I I have to imagine that there was like a McConkie eye conference for Latter Day Saints that were moderate and somewhere there would only be like half a dozen people sitting around drinking unsure whatever so many Latter Day Saints today just seem universalist basically and is baked into the system. Three tiers of heaven all that is baked in that way where well world and end up your indigo where you want to go about getting what you wanted, etc. but yeah it seems like when McConkie died a lot of the folks were buried with nobody will want to take this our positions in is probably why I found his new temp New Testament commentary set for like five dollars on eBay. I just trying it out strainer and you know Matthew. I did get them to take a hard line on something the other day and that is that I'm going to outer darkness, so also will. So the name of our podcast is just play on words. It's like yeah yeah reality whose who said that Michael oh it was a while back, and in the group you and tells Latter Day Saints.

Mike asked him if you know I would accept if there is a chance at accept the gospel in the next in a life like no you rejected in this life, so you rejected in the next coincidence interesting. A lot of times they will be will go there with us. X Latter Day Saints. They wanted an offer their their grace to us by saying all along� No, you had to the true line knowledge enough to to rejected in such a way to be a son of perdition, something that's interesting. The summary actually took a position with you yet had a couple of it is three guys kinda telling me that I was finished. So this can interesting so the German first column issues one wire. The first column issues.

And what does that have to do with Mormonism being labeled a theological cult. I think the easiest way for us to think about it when it comes to primary doctrine is that these these doctrines are definitional to Christianity. So when you think about what Christianity is asked me to find so often people want to say what you have association with Jesus at any level to near Christian is one definition of what is that a biblical definition is that a good definition is that people definition what God's definition should be asked and if we believe that the Bible is the review word of God, then we need to look to Scripture to see what makes Christianity Christianity. What defines the school and so as the first column on my chart.

I it's not necessarily comprehensive but there is a lot there that you would say okay well this is clearly taught in Scripture.

Therefore, it must be part parcel to the personal and the Gospels included in that of the Trinity is included in that the idea of hell. The second coming of Christ. The morality in Scripture is in their because there's just no getting around what if you have a valid hermeneutic. There's no getting around those documents so that makes any religion and movement that disagrees with doctrines that make that movement a theological colt. They have transgressed God's clear revelation of what is true what is right. So the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and they come along and reject the sufficiency of Scripture may reject the depravity may reject the deity of Christ may reject all these things that are so clearly taught in Scripture. They are by definition a theological colt as they have transgressed the clear teachings really really clear answer is really what I wanted. I want to have you on the shows because is think you chart is a really good framework for trying to express some of the some of the differences that we as Christians have with Latter Day Saints that sometimes will raise questions like the one that was referenced earlier like a relieved Jesus as we just believe in different things about Jesus you know you have to look as dead as you said, if you're going to reject the deity of Christ, the full deity of Christ as revealed in the Bible than you are in a fall outside of Christian orthodoxy and so I think this is a good framework and meditated and reminds me when I was still questioning Latter Day Saints. I was is buying up theology books and trying to compare them to. I believe is Latter Day Saints. In one of the first things about was that the ESV study Bible may have articles in the back and one of them was talking about. It was like real cults. Another religion world religions. In the first religion. It says on the first pages Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as a caveman told him in a cold that's cool, but yeah like looking back you know it makes sense that that the primary doctors are so different between historic Christianity and latter-day St. doctrine that I mean like he said he kind of have to be spiritually compromise or spiritually blind to the truth in order to not recognize as distinctions and that's kind of why we try to share these things with Latter Day Saints to show them like no one will be safe. Not the same thing as what you're saying, you know, we when we say you like. We don't like what he said to me when we say I believe in Christ, like those those those those several words are so different between Christians and Latter Day Saints that we really have to unpack everything it since they say it's like you know it's half the battle is just vocabulary or maybe even most of the battles vocabulary so trying to dissect that is important.

So I think the start is really really useful for helping Christians understand why know where we stand. Why why we can consider Latter Day Saints are our brothers in Christ so is okay if we move on the next question was. See also we talk about that of the primary issues are there there.

The primary topics.

So let's go on to the second column issues. So many of the distinctive LDS doctrines are second column issues such as ministry qualifications, such as they believe in an exclusive LDS priesthood authority church government and structure where they believe that their prophets and apostles, with special authority church membership when they believe that there are the one true church on the face of the earth on methods of baptism where they believe the they baptized by immersion by withholding proper authority, and they also baptize those who are above the age of the only so what is it about the way the eldest treaty secondary issues that places them at odds with Christians. And why is it problematic and why does it matter.

It's interesting about theological colt is we typically fine in them is that they they defined everything to see all the way across the board and everything is primary so Jehovah's Witnesses would be a pretty good example of this where they define everything from their what their gospel messages all the way down to how people should live without having to treat holidays and blood transfusions all at stuff everything is defined to see and then elevated to primary and there is no concept of secondary or tertiary or whatever everything is of ultimate importance and everything is definition which interesting note about Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that most of the first column things just get placed into a box of deep doctrine right. The mystery box and a lot of the first column. The things we would consider the first column is Latter Day Saints going to think too hard about those and then you have several secondary things and all whole lot of third column personal conscience issue, things those albeit defined to exceed elevated to the first, again going back to what you can wear. And when you can wear what you can drink. You know what you can do in your church to serve where you go to church all those types of things that are personal conscience issues still elevated up to the first column. Those are of first import and then we end up with is a religious system that really doesn't have much spiritual substance and that's what I see going on in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints you have this system very organized, but there's no real spiritual substance there because anything that will take the mind to the things of God kind of just inflatable mystery that will never even be able to figure out and it gets neglected so that you can elevate these things that really felt that that's been like this really fast actually have noticed that as someone who's never been Latter Day Saints because the a lot of lot of folks like Jackson or maybe some others that we interact with on Facebook and the younger generation, and even some in my own generation would say that their experience aligns with what you just said in terms of the practical day-to-day worship style and experience within the culture of the of the Latter Day Saints church is devoid of of spiritual substance and going back to what what Matthew said about him having been a McConkie I don't know that I would call myself a McConkie. I certainly when I was on my LDS mission experiences. His writings quite a bit in his some of the some of the sermons that she did a BYU but I definitely definitely was a group in a church and latter-day centrist that was much more firm on on those first column issues and taking the stance that Hayden was really important that we understand that we believe is Latter Day Saints that God is embodied that she was once a mortal man know some of those things are downplayed now and as you said kind of put off into the category of mystery were were much more hard-line issues when I was growing up is Latter Day Saints and this interesting to see the younger generations.

Latter Day Saints is as you could've noted, put those up in the category of mystery and I try to remind him you hated is that's what you're going to do with with these things that should be of primary importance where we have some significant differences assess Christians versus Latter Day Saints if that's what you're going to do than why should I become a rush to go back to the Latter Day Saints faith in others. If there's no one's no certainty about the nature of God and who God is who Christ is, then they really don't have anything to offer me right what you're saying what we were claiming was cortical restored really doesn't have anything to offer so anyway that's just my take on what you said anything bad about you people out there who are very fired up about lots thanks politics being one of the obsolete out politics and you'll get all kinds of opinions and even Nuance will obviously that exhorted them a very conservative but got now you got Pro chompers never drunkard and all that that a lot of opinions out there and people are thinking for themselves, for the most part on that and then when it gets to the realm of religion they take more but shut up doing this so frustrating for me.

It's like will talk about agency so much but when it comes to religion is almost, it's like you're part of this country club got a little it is amazing. It's amazing how intelligent you know letters Latter Day Saints can be how successful in business and educated and then when it comes to religion.

There is no thought that goes along with it and I'd totally agree with you that there's steel these rules that you just have to follow when I think Holland and Massey. You guys have probably seen this, but in the when you serve your mission there. There people who went out there. They didn't want to be out there if you know what I mean. People went out just for the pressure or because their girlfriend wasn't going to keep dating them if they weren't return missionaries and I had one companion who went out and said he prayed about whether or not to go and he said he got an answer not to go but when anyway because she just didn't feel like that was acceptable to not go so it's just like, okay, you don't really have a choice in and they talk about praying for an answer all the time, but in reality there's only one answer that is acceptable and when you know that that's what you're going to decide to do tonight. I should decide." But it's not a real decision regimen real quick just the good, I was going to mention to you that we bring this up is Latter Day Saints still say the bring up a quote. I think from Brigham Young where he says we've given them the revelations given in the Scriptures let them pray on it and let everybody receive revelation confirming what we said something to that effect. So basically battery sensor told what the prophets say, but it's up to you to be responsible to pray to know whether it's true or not. And so in that sense, they kind of made the resolve the issue of single week. We know we don't just believe blindly what our leaders teach and I never really found that argument very compelling because I Latter Day Saints. We all recognize that use. You are asked in and basically every conference and every baptismal interview at every worthiness interview to attend the temple you're asked do you sustain local and general leaders of the LDS church and part of that is agreeing are submitting to what they teach so you can you can say that you have freedom to accept what they teach are not, and that you should prayed to noticed or not but in the end the only the only acceptable checkbox is yes, I believe what they say is from God. So it's kind like a false sense of freedom. If you think about it that way. Have any of her sky conversations. Jeremy is likely to disagree with your stake president in charge of your recognition, which is your ticket to the celestial kingdom by warding your goodness. They all I'm a freethinker so that way you know your you're free to rebel against the one who holds the key. Basically they are not well yeah it is a false sense of freedom and know it's a pretty simplified way of looking at it.

The facts and jump to the next question here. Let's unpack the 11th LDS article of faith.

LDS will often cite this when reacting to Christian seeking to preach the gospel to them. It's a way of saying hey just leave us alone to worship as we please and we will extend the same courtesy to you and she had a family member.

When I was telling him that I had left the church. This popped up immediately. You know I'm not going to discourage you were try to dissuade you because you know the 11th article of faith we allow all men the privilege to worship whatever or wherever they may say how would you react to that that UniFirst I think with the Latter Day Saints. We should recognize that we have a common goal of missions and preaching the gospel now what that looks like is different. You know, we have a different idea of what the gospel is the but we both have a conviction that admissions are important and that preaching the gospel is the first port fee and see one I think talks about that goes into detail about been entrusted to go out and preach the gospel so that the conviction that we have in both of our religions. So let's not pretend like that's not the goal here, but secondly these are matters of life and death and you know from the Christian perspective.

This has eternity writing on, and it would not be loving for me to live in consistently with my faith on this point that if I if I say no heaven is real and how real and where where you are in relationship to the gospel that determines your eternal destiny advising that that is true and I also believe that on the instrument in God's hand to proclaim the good, the people it would be unloving for me to hold that so I think from a psychological standpoint, they should be able to understand that that's not to say so therefore you should know worship in your church and you should go to this nation go to that no Christian should never be like slashing their tire so they can go to church or whatever, you know that's not the idea. The idea is as long as you have breath in your lungs and I got breath in mind you need to have some sort of relationship that is centered around gospel conversation constantly. Whether that means I'm a believer you're not only both believers by God's grace. Let's continue talking about the gospel as long as God get his or anything in this article of faith that you see is problematic to you as a Christian goes beyond just a statement of religious tolerance, respect and surety. Could you see yourself agreeing with it if it was proposed as an addition to your church's statement of beliefs and why or why not integrate the ripoff report nation right but even that statement is rooted in some sort of religious beliefs. This idea that men are free to worship according to their conscience, and I think it's the way nation should be run where Americans rightly believe that freedom of expression, freedom of worship is a great thing. It's a virtue. As far as being a Christian statement till being added to the doctrinal statement church yeah I don't know about that.

It would always need to be a stronger statement acknowledging that just because people are free to worship as they please. That doesn't validate worship or worship that they are free to live and also worship right again were not looking to chain them often to keep them from doing something, but at the same time were not saying because they're free to do that. That means there that exits a valid or or authentic worship. There is such a thing as false worship in their free to do that if they so choose that you had the does make good or right side is find a statement now historic American tolerance and respect for one another. Is it just that. In essence, it is a very American statement, which makes sense for for an American-born religion like the church to discuss Latter Day Saints. But, as noted in earlier questions were at work and get problematic is where it it almost becomes a justification to view universalism assess kind of okay right or even like to suggest that we shouldn't have authentic religious dialogue as you as you are known in Germany so I think for that in that senselessness used in that way by Latter Day Saints. It seems problematic problematic today. So you just dump it real quick cite not to interrupt, but just USA and their policy was something about about those kind of statements I would make them all the time is you know, only the truth doesn't need to attack another belief system like if you're secure in your truth. You can just talk about your own beliefs and there's no point to try to find clinical falsehoods and in somebody else and there is actually a Christian that said to me like you're just as you know, you just try to preemptively stop me from saying something you know about your face, and he was absolutely right.

You know, so I think that is use that way a lot. So when asking a journey off the cuff so it sounds like your you're not at the atomic reconstructionist on no theogonies very intriguing. I find it fascinating. But no, I'm not where like. Amar or some of those other guys would be no forgetting the guys a goal. More Doug Wilson I think they're very fun to listen and so we we were originally going to record another episode.

After this just with S3 about politics in us, had been studying all the different types of political structures and and I find yummy fascinating and I'm sorry it cited Paul Michael and I'm sorry for the society but yet I find it fascinating and I think there is like it like there's truth to what they're trying to do the trying to honor God not only in the church life but also the secular life and they want to have been. I think they have a high view of God's law, but I see it is what you are saying� He does kind of like enforcing God's law as they did in ancient Israel, but in our modern context where the New Testament is really talk of such a context, it's more talking it it assumes that the church is going to be a minority assumes were going to be oppressed and persecuted in the world is also being a single back to its with what you're talking about my religious tolerance yeah it is interesting because as as a missionary. I kind of recognize that what I was doing is allotted is a missionary in the world was offensive. I was going to cause offense to people. I had a very on my I feel my best friends from the mission. You know we would go to Houston we would knock a few times or they would have the gate closed and he would say well you know they probably won't be left alone should bother them and open again.

They said look were here to bother people. That's her point if were in and I think Christians agree with that.

You know were not here to make people feel comfortable were here to show them that there that we are sinners and that we need repentance to avoid the wrath of a holy and just God by accepting his mercy and so it's it's something and I think maybe maybe we can ask a quick question about this. Do you think you know with the political climate, things going on. It seems like more people today are easily offended hats being told that they're wrong or being told that they need to be gospel or they need Jesus. You think it's becoming more so. That way, or is it just may be the Internet climate that's changing things where people are not willing to be challenged on their beliefs are not willing to think critically. What are your thoughts on yeah well one interesting passage for interpret the interpretations that exist at their level I is that it's the decline of the society. It's kind of the order in which society begins to decline as God beautiful set and one thing that's become abundantly clear in our society today is that we do not have a common understanding of the problem of the problem being sin not just sin as it exists out there in the culture as a amorphous no concept of floating around but sin that begins in human hearts that we are all fundamentally a part of the problem and we all meet and when you don't have that understanding is common ground, anything that comes after that just isn't going to make sense.

We have more and more people believing that they are intrinsically good there virtuous matter how contradictory or inconsistent. They are that their worldview is right and good and pure and that the delusion is a delusion and Scripture says in Thessalonians 2 that there will come a time when God will send the strange delusion on the people that they will not understand and whether this is it. Whether this is a foreshadowing word will get a taste of thank you for not yet. He said a lot of really great things. It reminds me even as latter-day St. I struggled with some things that they taught her that they believe because on one hand they would talk about how it was the Protestant Reformation's fault for showing man is being inherently sinful and needing change needing to be born again, and that it was Joseph Smith, and that the restoration about back this inherent goodness and man and at the same time the book of Mormon talks about how the natural man is an enemy to God, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and so I, wrestled with that and I think we've been taught by that another episode Stuart seems like this is a good, dichotomous view of the nature of man, of the nature formatted cycle. How do you reconcile those ideas and I and I think is light a scene I, back and forth. I generally thought people in the world were generally good people just kinda made some mistakes, you know, I don't really have an understanding of the depth send out the weight of sin and the offense it is to God and so really learning about that for the Bible and from from Christian doctrine and theology really. I mean, I kind of knew that I was a sinner before but it's like when you really it's kinda like when Paul says you know when he understood the law field and that he understood the weight of a sin, you know he means. In a sense, as we all know are sinners when you really understand the stuff in the spirit witnesses to you. You are completely lost, need salvation. It's just this is the most humbling experience to realize I don't have anything to offer God and I agree with you that I think that is kind of an essential. I know that there might be some Christian and also Christian.

I passed out there that would say that would agree that you know people are generally good and so were to try to help them have a better life. That kind of thing that I don't I don't think that's a good solid foundation for preaching the gospel know you if you lose the depravity of man news gospel back. Thank you for that. So his last question so what would be the appropriate Christian response to those that are not of our faith and asked me love from a pure heart and a sincere conscience that's got to be a response. We don't have local or nothing, right Christians out with that love for each other. That's her testimony before the world and save the date is Mormon song is there� In John 13 you want to sing it. We might want to see if you don't want us to see that I could bring Breanna and Jan Michael please honor do that again will we have to have that local one. You know that is our that is our world, but then we also have to love the world and eating panel what Christians truly believe in the doctrine of hell by those who vandalized if we truly believe that these human beings that are around us are made in God than and that by their rejection of the gospel. They will spend eternity in hell, then the only loving response. We can now is to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ and prayerful do it that God will use us to reach their hearts by his spirit.

So we have to have love, we have to have enough love to confront people and have those hard conversations that that's really where it comes from is not not spike competition, not from wanting to win an argument, but he asked if I can add just a little bit that Gina had a couple of LDS missionaries stop by my apartment last year and we had a couple of discussions and you know usually don't even jump right into doctrine when I'm talking to LDS missionaries. I know they want to talk about it just as much light, so I think that first visit. We just talked about how where they were from other missions were going to stay talk any crazy people just have exchanged mission stories you notice I gone through a lot of the same stuff that they had and we got around to the doctrine and talked about it ends in the balls reached out to me months later saying that they trusted in on us. Just like man like this, there's a lot of questions that I talked to who witnessed the latter-day Saints. You know online and they don't think that it's possible to get to that point. So just wondering what would you say to somebody like that they were telling you that they just didn't think it was even possible to get to have a positive conversation with a Mormon never to be some of the missionaries or just your neighbor, or does not get a let let you get close just the way it is and I want to do a number missionaries were very like business minded or not.

They're not there to build a relationship or friendship may there. There for business came in the God that is the way that they are but we can control the way they are weeklong control and so will we need to do with the open seek to be there friends, especially the missionaries advised that we like get people is the buying pizza sit down with them and the defeat of thoughtful because of their lonely their wife in the family think authority don't like this guy got paired up with the girl that got paired up with and so probably have a rough time the mission (and love the Lord used that love them enough to have a hard conversations so much as is gonna say to you. Thank you for saying for understanding that missionaries are people, first and foremost we can think of them as I go. Those Mormons epidemic in a box and sale. We can't, we can talk to them because there Mormons but there people you know we were all missionaries and you know not all of us are blessed with the opportunity served stateside, Michael let you know. So Paul fostered and hungry and I served in Belgium and I can.

There are times I didn't have any meals with any church members for an entire month and so we were eating pasta and sandwiches every day and I got really boring enough to or three meals a day of the same stuff every day to sandstone and I smell someone to just spending time with them talking to them. I really enjoyed those appointments of my fondest memories of those in you you you grow those connections in that office. I have a hard time sometimes remembering of LDS things, Christian things, but I think it's a universal truth you people people really care a whole lot about what your teaching unless you show them first how much you care about them. So if we just come at the my car salesman you know I recognize that is what is a missionary that I didn't work too well and I think I've seen that same approach.

On the other side now talking to latter-day Saints in our chat rooms is the same thing you know, if you just come at them and say you're wrong. These are heretical Peter paint sometimes I don't suppose approach is warranted. You know someone that you know it depends on the conversation but same time you show you still need to build up the relationship beforehand. Tino if you're just laying down the hand of justice all the time I eyes I saw Christians tell me that you know they were just calculations one you know your you're not familiar copier cut off from God that I was like okay well I still you know I don't really want to talk to folks so you have any.

We need at least some kind connections and can abridge nets hopefully will retry to do the podcasts and and him were hoped for and in and relate your chart you know the primary, secondary, and all and others doctrines and I don't think that you're trying to do that right. You're not trying to divide us in the sense of saying were better than you or somehow smarter is just saying look, here's where we are his Marie archaeologically and the other some things we just cannot compromise so you gotta have definitions you can't just say that anything is anything any other some kind began saying that Gilligan and was in and say that's Christianity, for obvious reasons. So we have to have some sort of concept as to what makes a valid genuine religious framework and we serve a God of the Bible absolutely right. Good discussion tonight guys. Jeremy, thanks for joining us listeners in Utah Valley would like to visit. How can they get more information about church of Bible Church, formerly known as Payson Bible church yeah yes I'm getting confused here, but how can listeners tune in to your do theology podcasts. Yes, over the church. Just go to Orchard Obama church.com. We have tons of Bible teaching.

We have a SoundCloud account so we had a podcasts search the Bible, church podcasts replace Bible church on tons of sermon series on their books of Galatians Esther Deuteronomy the start of first Corinthians James all bunch of stuff on their Bible teaching systematic theology class of the year and we started that again somewhere in the first half of that jump, so lots of good teaching and and in the podcasts could do theology.com research theology podcasts work at the podcasts. Those are some fun conversations.

We think anyway and had some interesting guests on there. We just released a couple episodes just Peter Sumter fell off the buddy listening recognizes names but even if you don't, you should listen for longer check it out. Did I hear you mention the sermon series through various books of the Bible to do expository preaching yeah work were committed verse by verse chapter by chapter Nolan. We went to the book of Esther we are doing chapter 2 at a time. In Deuteronomy it buried Minelli with slowdown in some parcel of the verses in the got of the law chapter that it's time you know but now like in the book of first Corinthians were pretty slow Galatians James first and second Thessalonians slow series. That's that's awesome I love that is as is latter-day St. Dominic claiming I restudy to reach book of our our Scripture once every four years when we really think about it the way they do that is the unity don't, you may study Matthew but you're not going to read everything from Matthew Henry's select versus the support latter-day St. doctrine of regular estimate last year and I have the physical copy of the Sunday school curriculum are just dying.

I was so I and Romans was to Sundays. I need to 60 beautiful chapters in Romans to Sundays you nicely chat. I so far listeners who who are curious who may be post latter-day Saints in considering looking to find church if you can find one near you like my gorgeous Hills Bible church, or if you are near Orchard helps Bible Church. Check it out because expository preaching is awesome. When I was next. Latter-day St. newly out and I attended church that was doing expository preaching me away. You know, and I learned things and heard things from the Bible that I had never heard before. Literally never heard before. So yeah check it out. I think that's awesome Jeremy that's you were committed to the sufficiency of Scripture because we believe Scripture really isn't God great God gave to us directly and that sufficient for all things pertaining to life and godliness that what we do an equivalent best but slow down and let's really understand what data set. Thanks again Jim for joining us normally go out with Adam's robe, Michael.

If you can you concerning this again and will will use that as our after the test.

You trying to make us lose all of our listeners getting unsubscribe by the commission is granted is a lot of actual music to me. We should get Mike on a kazoo or something like that or harmonica is a good thing into this number seven of the outer ring is not as we love to hear from you. Please visit the out of rightness podcasts feel free to send us a message than with comments or send a message at the time the pain appreciated the page aligned. We also have an out of rightness and others can also send this out of rightness to hear from you soon and subscribe to the out of rightness podcasts on campus cast box cast cast the modify institution. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel. If you like it certainly right. Please give us a great can also connect with Michael just one lungs and sometimes Poland will music for the outer brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page. It Adams Road ministry.com. Stay bright fireflies to show the kind that you and may and in the key and in the way that man in