What About PRIESTHOOD? Part 2

Your answering and and and you Matthew want to talk a little about worthiness is a lot a state media you.

How did you remain worthy to hold the priesthood.

Well I think it's the passage we talked about before. I think it's doctrine and covenants 121 where he talks about we try to use our priesthood and unrighteousness. A name into the priesthood of that man is I want 20 1C is somewhere I should actually get out but I got several tabs open, but yes, I was always on the forefront of my mind when I was ordained to the priesthood, and a connection wanted to share my screen if that's all right passage on the doctrine and covenants that I wanted to share. Hopefully this'll work is as the host has disabled participant screen sharing okay okay hope all is all okay cool as me for some reason you about was your conducting okay Stratus now so I think I can just share accordance culture that a Sita yes yes okay so so this isn't something they can buy is a module I I added it in is like a tool, but I just think I'm collating some book something so don't ignore it.

D&C 84 because like when I was when I was preparing to receive the priesthood. You know my bishop read this with me. It's the oath and covenant of the priesthood and it's really important for Latter Day Saints and so when I thought when I think about worthiness. This is what comes to my mind so to scroll up and it can use a genealogy of the priesthood was passed down and I'll says sons of Moses, according to the holy presurgery cedars have his father-in-law, Jethro, etc. centers passed down which priesthood continues in the church of God in all generations and is without beginning of days or in of years that it talks by confirming a pre-suit on. Aaron sets the lower priesthood so starting, verse 19 and this greater priesthood and minister of the gospel and hold the key of the mysteries of the kingdom.

Even a key of the knowledge of God. Therefore, in the ordinances thereof.

The power of godliness is manifest without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priest or the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh. Without this, no man can see the face of God, even the father live so continuing on word it says talks. But the offices okay and then of the start of verse 33. I think this is technically where the oath and covenant starts. Bruce was faithful unto the obtaining of these two priest is a which have spoken and the magnifying their calling are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies to become the sons of Moses and Aaron and the seed of Abraham and the church and kingdom and the elect of God and also all they receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord, for you to receive my service receive with me and he received with either receive me or see with my father. He never see with my father receive my father's kingdom there for all of my father. How shall be given unto him.

This is according to the oath, which belongs to the priesthood is as important so this is these are the kind like the blessings of receiving the priesthood.

But what really was on my mind is that really impressed upon me that I need to be worthy of it was the following ones because it just so impressed my mind and it scared me that I was like I gotta. I can be worthy of this so continuing on word it says. Therefore, all those who receive this priesthood receive this oath and covenant my father which he cannot break neither can you be moved but whoso break. If this covenant after he has received it and altogether turn is there from shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come and want to all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you are present.

This day by mine own voice out of the heavens and even I have given the heavenly hosts and my angels charge concerning you and this is letter for you shall live by every word that proceeded forth from the mouth of God and for the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light whatsoever is light asperity in the spirit of Jesus Christ. So I brought that up because I think that's important to bring up because for me, at least as A.

St. I saw blessings there and I saw very strict and very strong cautions that basically if you receive this higher priesthood. If you don't honor it.

If you don't live by every word that proceeds forth in the mouth of God.

In verse 44, and you turn away and altogether turn is there from. So I kind of proceed.

That is like just turning away from the church but still I felt like even if you weren't living according to everywhere the proceeds from the mouth of God than you want. Living truly worthy of of the priesthood is so and bring up again. That passage in D&C you I forget, I think it's 121 where he talks about the hot says amen to the priest of that man. There's a real responsibility to be worthy of that that that gift going back to the weapon analogy, you know like you view gotta be conscious of your weapon into maturity or using it safely. They are not abusing it on because he could harm yourself or others, and so is really scary. Not like I last thought is like if I am if I don't treat this correctly. If I don't use this correctly. I can be condemned for it and I'll like it says you will have any forgiveness of sins in this world or in the world to come. So so in terms of like pragmatically what I thought it was to be worthy note just try to keep your my mouth clean. You know not say anything wrong or blasphemous, not disrespect others or gossip you know is they follow all the moral teachings of the LDS church teaches, which aren't all bad. Of course you like one of those things I would agree with but it also dipped into legalism. You know like I felt really guilty me know if I had to buy something on Sunday. Like an antibiotic like 12:05 AM and elsewhere was technically still Sunday like I can't believe I did that such an idiot and I would really be myself up over that and things like that. I remember as being obsessed costly signature priesthood holder, you gotta be worthy and only you can't be can joke about those kind of things is always be myself up in my perfectionism was always knocking me down so and and also a known keep yourself in all pure and chaste and stuff like that trying trying to say things or do things that would scare the spirit away or that would make you lose your authority. Things like that. I never really felt worthy Hannah. I never really felt truly worthy of the priesthood. I felt like maybe someday maybe someday I'll feel like I'm working but I never really did it. I had little moments I felt like maybe I was doing okay but there were there very they were fleeting moments.

So yeah, long response with no that's that's good of me not, I agree with you but a lot of the legalism stuff to does that environment you was trying to one up everybody also be the most righteous person. So then you end up adding less rules guilty if I went swimming on Sunday because this is Sunday any take this more seriously, I can't spend a lot of time in the pool. There were a lot of people that no business transactions or something and people as am I can accept money because it's Sunday and just look at those you will be like oh my gosh, that person like really takes his priesthood seriously. You have a lot of the same feelings that you did where you think okay this displaces the authority of God. So my standard is basically right up there with God you on this. Can't make any mistakes at all. I have to basically banished all all wrong thoughts from my mind after magnify my church callings.

Last June she prayed reading the Scriptures after passing to go to the temple and I need to be. I feel guilty because I wasn't doing my genealogy unit is there was a lot of "righteousness is like we you of the work for the dead.

The genealogy is like the most important work we could be doing and I'm just like, well good because you know my mom and my grandma they got that cornered you know they got our genealogy all the way back to Adams anyways I'll worry about this when I 60 is kind of what I would think, but I feel really guilty wanted Steve and I went on not doing all that I be doing and nobody will not take this priesthood figure seriously is by should be what you think Paul triggered here by the priest in Matthew is illusory that pretty often. Definitely like and may correct sometime in May when you're celebrating the disclosure assertion because the groups you read it as another form of government reason like the whole all man we do it is like the whole priesthood together like inclusive opening exercises in the chapel would read the whole thing together but yeah I match. I tried to follow the commandments right because there's a whole be there for cleaning the rest of the Lord, right messaging given as a latter-day St. so you may have waited pornography, alcohol to the coffee and you know tried to avoid even caffeinated soda arriving back to talk about working two jobs. When Angel and I were first married. No referral for a few years there I work my day job and that I would deliver consent night and so I would be my day job started at 8 AM and we only have one car.

The times are robust and in Cincinnati Northern Kentucky Cincinnati area. There's two different bus systems, one for more than Kentucky.

One for Cincinnati and so I had to make transfers to get to work in Cincinnati so I was up early like 530 in the morning, leaving out of the house at 6 o'clock get on the bus and then I would come home and take the car in and drive pizza.

You know until 11 o'clock midnight and know in the evenings. I'm pounding Mountain Dew enough to stay awake and there were times when you know and I don't feel bad about that. A lot of time discussing them stop.

Technically, peninsular was to have Mountain Dew, but there were times in the morning where you and I would go to the coffee station at work and grab coffee, select get through the morning and not beat myself up over that slick grandma like Don Jen coffee knows priesthood holder and it was now just think about those things now and you like while I can't believe that was that was really the thing that I guess that's how I tried but like Matthew. I never really felt really did you meet any thoughts on the little you didn't hold the priesthood.

But it was that it is a factor in your life and all yeah I mean I was felt like it had to be where the to receive those blessings constantly so there is always pressure on both sides of Breanna the biggest problems that a lot of Mormons have coming out of the church is that associate USO Christianity doesn't appear to have any authority compared to what they're leaving you cross that chasm cell mentioned a little bit about patients and my experiences. Mary and I came to the realization before I came out in the church is not priesthood really was an illusion and possible standard by chance but the amazing thing about Christianity has been and he is a ratchet in her. He is horrible by all malicious totally pray and it is helping me realize that God's love knows no debt and guys holding me love how more secure priesthood. But it was nice to and is really freighting because you know this is my second marriage and in my first marriage.

I held the priest and so I was expected to.

I think keep a certain aesthetic appearance you a certain like I needed to appear to be a certain level of righteous and it made me feel weaker if I wasn't like why latter-day Saints don't show who they really are or how they really are and it's great to.

It's freeing to be like you know what my wife knows that I'm that I'm a sinner and I don't have to do the standard isn't perfection of her standard for me isn't perfection and and that is really a lot healthier in a marriage, I think.

And she's right.

I have a ratchet center so thank thank God were Jesus all right Matthew you and because of that I like to know how you are able to bridge the gap company Christianity, even though it may not have any authority to bring up a couple passages we have later on in the discussion. First Peter two verse five. If an extent. Yeah, I was on my mission another podcast to how is a real struggle for me because I really associated my worth and my identity with the priesthood serving in the temple doing endowments doing baptisms for the dead in the temple and so is difficult is a struggle for me to let that up into acknowledge that I'm not an elder. I'm not endowed. I don't have special sacerdotal priesthood.

I don't have some special kind of authority that others don't. And I like one and attending a church.

I felt like I was sidelined. You know like when I came over my mission going backwards. I can move my mission. I was begging my bishop for months for calling because I just felt useless in a guy I mean are struggling with school and is hardly get any sleep.

I still felt like I wanted a calling of some kind. If you like I belonged like I could serve somehow and am in so I was even worse when I left ill district, I started attending a Christian church because it was like you know I didn't participate in anything. I wasn't asked to pray either in our meetings, you know, because I wasn't a member technically I wasn't. You know I couldn't help talks were not a thing you know of the pastors preach sermons so I was briskly died going to tear the preaching and I go home and it was really weird but I just took time just to time in understanding that you can you can fulfill needs in the church that don't require being an elder or pastor or have some kind of authority just being in the congregation and using the gifts God gives you in whatever way possible. Whether it's making friends with people of the church or whether it's sharing and insight you had about us passage of Scripture in the Bible that week with someone or if you have musical talents you know using that whatever it is there's there's a way for you to do gods give me those gifts he's put you in that churches need is needed, you into that community for reason when I kind of understood that I thought okay yeah maybe I'm not on some kind of awesome magical priesthood pedestal like I thought I was in the LDS church.

But I'm still needed.

I'm still wanted know God still chose me. Also, ratchet center for some reason his reasons for his plan and for his glory, and so I just I kind of many realize it's not about me it's about my knee still fulfilling my knees and on my ego.

Whatever you know God saves us to glorify him enough to point others to him to worship him. And that's the focus early to remember and when I started kind of when God change my heart and turning that direction. It made no it didn't matter anymore. Didn't matter that I didn't have some kind of special power didn't matter that I wasn't an elder anymore. So I think I just really to God work in the change my mind on that you really like what you said about gifts that is a great answer member about that at my church to talk about God's given us these gifts that determine how were going to help out our church family. I love those cool codes before that might or might not have all this freedom in Christ will do with X, you still used to the bishop just headed telling me what calling to do and I will have to think about it, and now all the settlers.

All these choices and how my supposed to decide and relate talk about gifts and how we can figure out what, but that is really narrow that down annually.

Okay, you know what they need me for what unintended units it's great because you have colleagues in the LDS church. Sometimes there were more based on necessity then not inspiration. You know oh I see it all the time because I would be in their meetings in the morning. It's like oh we got a new family. Great throw them in the nursery like we need somebody's inheritance like u didn't even pray about it like it's just were doing this. Looks like all of your thoughts on that. I remember so we had some family friends Jason, Emily, Jason and I served together in another scorn presidency the last few years that we were in and the LDS church and he started going through pretty significant faith crisis to the point where she has to be released from from Elvis Korman and then got a really you know, was given a really hard time about it because that's a calling that comes from the state level. So you had to pass the state present to be released all the stuff that in the November there is state conference were conference with the stake presidency can remember getting a lesson and I kinda thought it was kinda clear from the lesson that they were referring to him as he has room and really can't bother me because I've been served with them for couple years we've been friends I'm so when you wind up leaving around that time. We were on our way out. But that was how the final final straw to see someone we do love treated that way. So I was over I was kind of already appointed than where I didn't feel that sense of know puffed up just about being a priesthood holder anymore. I cannot. I recognize that there was this LDS doctrine of the priesthood. I didn't ascribe the power to anymore, you know. And then I just kind like with us. The doctor and I enjoy serving in the church where I can serve. So when we left we started to talk about would start chart church hopping. Try to find a church to attend, we started attending church we attend the Lakeside Christian mingle there for several months and and Emily and Jason came and spent an afternoon with us and we went to see a movie together before he went to the movie. Words can hang out at our house and sitting around the table just talking this stuff and remember Emily Astley in the system church is going to know what's their view on priesthood and I was like really know you know that I wasn't really thinking about that because like I said, I'd at least a point where it wasn't really important to me anymore so I was really kinda just focus on Jesus and and and learning. No learning about Jesus through the sermons by having I wasn't really thinking about Krista too much and so she said she has to know it is a sort of like you know Luther's first of all believers view you know I was like yeah probably I don't really know you know that kind of thinking so as last in our pastors in Elko so so what about the view of ordination.

Gifts were named why what service you know the answer to this question here in excess this. I start asking questions and and and learning more about what my church teaches and believes about that in terms of overcoming overcoming it.

I think that all kinda happens before I left for heaven, lost the view that there was actually this exclusive precipitate member stored so that wasn't something that from the leaving I was like on can you figure that out now.

Where is where is the actual priest. I never felt that leaving so it's interesting that you kind of already had changing views about that before he left because even after hours transitioning out of kind of felt like I was leaving her out of the church. I still struggle with thoughts related to the priesthood enough is interesting that that you had Artie kind of left those ideas, but were still clinging to the church is for the interesting thought was of my heritage are like certain doctrines are kept you enter, you know that you are struggling to let go of her was the so the doctrine that the Decision for the longest time was his eternal marriage and it exists, contradictory to what upset when I was sent to the success of Priscilla workman's right, but we it was really kind of the 19th century romantic view of having here and here in the LDS church people talk about like we knew each other in the preexistence and we were.

We promise to be together and that's why we're married now and that those kind of things that people lose these romantic views that people hold about marriages within the LDS church so that was kind of our thing in the efforts over a long time that that was it right it was okay. So if we leave this been what was that meeting were not to be married in the afterlife. What will our relationship be lied. We really love each other, you know, so was that mean for a relationship so that I was, the last domino to fall for us and now I read mysteries of godliness heard about but for now, but it kinda goes to the temple ceremonies and all that the signature books published it but yet at that kinda took that away from me and then it was a matter of having conversations with Angela and just kinda getting aligned on that like we had to get to the point where we were willing to say okay if even if the true truth about the afterlife is that we won't be married in the way that the LDS church teaches, even if that's what is true, but we have Jesus than we have everything that matters and we reached that point we can say anymore possible phrase gravity and bring it up point. Yeah, I think. I think a lot of those things are just kinda designed to keep her eyes off of the Savior. You know the priesthood definitely does that drives ourselves in our worthiness to process up having the same thing is true of eternal marriage to take her eyes off the price and it was her eyes are spouse and it makes it really is a saying that that Christ is insufficient for us to do something else we need a cherry on top for it to be worth it, and praise.unit. Your eyes were open: you're able to see Christ that he was really the greatest prize. The we can have that you were shown as everything else absolutely finish with that kind of my how I kinda came out of the church is usually threefold.

Three things that had happened three dominoes that help me transition from being Mormon to being a Christian. The first thing that happened was me beginning to doubt the leaders first I start the debate groups. I wasn't even thought was Latter Day Saints debating crazy Christians is a Mormon and then pulling out these quotes from Joseph Smith know there are men on the moon as tall as Quakers or one of the will of the province which one said that we would never reach the moon and I'm like okay like some of these things, they said are demonstratably false and was ultimately held the policy, saying that children of gay parents could be baptized. I disagreed with that and I'm guessing okay that the Bible says you shall offend one of these little ones it's better than a millstone was hanging around her neck and they were thrown into the ocean like I don't think this is the same God. I don't think that Jesus would have put out policy like this and against the second article of faith, and I felt like the spirit was telling me something different and so the first thing was I doubted that the leaders really have this authority. And so I realize that it was an illusion unit was just like extorting it to kinda keep us all tailored to the church but I really that you deteriorated as secondly is I came to learn about imputed righteousness. As I understand it at least once.

This episode time to take a shot. This is the they were.

If Christ did everything that needed to be done to merit heaven and his righteousness is accredited to me then that actually negates the need to have priesthood ordinances at all and if there's not enough recent ordinances. There's no need to have holders giving those ordinances in some back problem way and then finally this kind came later.

I didn't become a Christian, not even really thinking anymore about priesthood, but I what I learned about the priesthood of all believers. That was something that had really known much about before and it's okay. There is a priesthood authority that is given to everybody who believes in Christ whereby we become his priests essentially so knowing that is okay because I never knew that evangelical Christians even claimed any sort of authority and is actually sooner.

My radar for years. I had no idea about this so that everything full circle for me. That's how I was able to bridge that chasm on the same boat with you imputed righteousness sells those, like was a yet that the nails in the coffin for me. Also, since I did it mean I can access I can gain access to God directly.

Like I don't have to go through this organization always ordinances an ultimate my leaders and all I can just go straight to Jesus like that that I just like you know open the veil.

My mind is so clearly like what if you if you're right, just by now what you've done, but by believing in him, who was perfectly righteous and it's like everything the bilious church offers me had no you know it's like someone so don't try to sell you a car and you find out it's missing an engine in the mufflers broken. You know you look under the hood like I want this car anymore. What you meant about his car and pass the yeah well it's one of the stories always find most amusing in the New Testament is, is when Jesus is fasting and Satan appears to open easily shows a molecule of the wall. He says I'll give you all this if you will find on worship me and I like this is ridiculous.

He's offering Jesus something that is rightfully his, you know, and I'm really feeling that is basically the same kind of deal that the LDS priesthood offers a student because Jesus is our mediator with the father and the priesthood.

The illustration comes in there and says no, we are the mediator between you and the mediator like no I don't need a mediator between me and a mediator. That's ridiculous. This is completely unnecessary. So yeah you're right I statement to that Matthew meet, we can go directly to God and receive our salvation right there. Yes, that's interesting Michael. We were talking earlier earlier about things and brought up the fact that you left the LDS church, and in May 2010 started attending another church consistently.

The next month year or so later in August 2011 I was baptized into Christ and then in May 2012 when our anniversary rolled around.

We really started to think seriously come to the point of years earlier. As I mentioned were written realizing of the got Jesus and Ellen and and the Bible teaches that there is no marriage in heaven. And then so be it. And we have Jesus. That's all that matters about that in 2012 our anniversary realize again. It's time to time to cut ties now so I wrote a letter of resignation and received the letter back from the bishop that I had never met who was newly installed in the ward where we lived, and you know, warning me that the guy I got your letter asking me your you and your wife and your families names be removed from the records of the church.

Please be aware that this cannot cancel all priesthood ordinances include including your baptism right I think back on that. I think you how ludicrous is that you know 2011 I was baptized in the Christ and then there's disorganization threatening that all of the stuff we did four units sold and retaken away from you. You know that with the organization.

I want to come in, one other thing to talk about the priesthood of all believers you remember in the other stressors kind of this view to that.

It's not just about the hierarchy that that kinda makes their view priesthood superior is also the fact that anybody can hold it right is, this Democratic view. Every man can hold the priesthood right questions that anybody could sever mansard the things the other women you're not allowed but if this kind of this Democratic view of priest of the look that every man can hold it everywhere. The man can hold it and and yet the same time if he felt it when LDS to look at other denominations to talk about the priest of all believers.

They lose their minds. Why are you talking about.

How can there be a priest of all believe will swear the same position you hold, except when you really start stretching and pulling at the threads on this letter of the LDS church. She realizes it's really is a strong hierarchical model is really not Democratic.

It's interesting and there is a book. I think it was a great prince has Prensa cameras name. We talked about the authority and I mean you can find a lot of books with that.

He posits that Joseph Smith is working towards women having the priesthood you now with with the temple ordinances having women officiating in the temple and women are given the robes of the priesthood in their officiating in the temple which is something in the Old Testament that only priests did that some people think that if you live the longer he might've given women the priesthood but in some be plugged with your dad because of the things you stated about the temple in and some people argue that the restoration isn't finished yet is more to come. Stay tuned for season 450 signs with us is only 10% of the way you locate guys do you you will keep going a little longer. You want call it for tonight. I know the next couple of questions are all related to each other so yeah, I remember pretty short answer. So the next several I'm good to go for little while. If you guys are.

If you want to comment. Try to go to cover the long just wanted thinking maybe siding and ketchup anything letting me know your comments mean that for me. So what was it was comment about about Michael being totally depraved. One thing that I can't posted this Christians that I meet this discovery that they were often tested in the Bible was just like there are female, and my dad reading Judges chapter 2, oh my gosh, she's a freaking beast. She was yeah yeah it's funny because I brought it up to my brother really is brother Mike, how do you explain this this profit excessively well take is that you know there's people who have the gift of prophecy, but they're not actually profit; why we need anybody have the give big problem in the other problem isn't in Mormonism business the hierarchy to you as far as who you can receive revelation and so you know you have to be the prophet to receive revelation for the whole nation, and she she can. The men according to Elliott's technology that's impossible is the big problem, but keep going to the questions, but if you want to go you can. If you have anything else going yeah probably go but thank you guys for having me take your okay yeah leave the chair. Okay me ask you this. First, Paul, how is the leadership in your church differ from that of Mormonism. So several ways for this, like structure and the nurses how they operate. Right. So structure structurally wearing Christian church that operates on a congregational model so were led by a board of elders at the local level that are selected by the congregation once a year. There is a congregational meeting at which there are openings on the eldership board. Men's names are put forward as nominees and votes are taken and new elders are selected to be on the board. Our lead pastor is also an elder on the board so the board of elders works together with the lead pastor to guide the church and be shepherds to the church and Mica says as an independent Christian church. We don't have hierarchy beyond the local church so the local church is autonomous and turns in terms of governing itself. We are part of that allow a broader movement that includes many, many other churches, but the other churches, and there is no personal hierarchal hierarchical structure that has authority over local churches. Even though were were affiliated and so you… It's like a big the autonomy of the local churches is a big part of armored movement. In particular there when within the movement there started to be kind of the development of missionary societies. People saw that as as the potential for the development of a hierarchy as they were kind of parachurch ministries and so Bible societies and missionary societies, so there were there were splits in the movement hope over that no churches that that that would be part of the missionary society versus those that would not because it was seen as a threat to the autonomy of the local church, but yet that's how we read we operate from. From a policy standpoint in terms of how the leadership themselves. Individuals operate passively different than than the in Mormonism. You know there's no we don't reach out and make callings to they might reach out and say hey you know you do this, but it's not that I can extend a formal call into my just with Johnson Hilliard projected that no teaching or no pastoral skills you want to be involved in the hospital ministry will be involved in teaching the kind of thing just from from interacting with you, but yes, so calling is different in that regard I think of a recession, a few the other things swear they don't not presume to be trained counselors. So if there is a situation in a marriage or person's life that is going to require other people's expertise. They will definitely refer you, which I think is refreshing. So that's what I said Matthew will know what your church and pray somewhere Paul's sober member of the confessional reform Baptist Church. So yeah we also have a congregational model understood the understanding that to mean that the ads led by elders in there also deacons that serve as officers in the church and were also there. Also, chosen from among the members of the congregation. We don't have like you have like an elders board or anything. We just have two pastors that are elders and a so they pertain on their focus on the spiritual things in Scripture divulges and then deacons are there to assist them in their efforts in maintaining the building keeping everything clean things like that so that the elders can focus more on preaching and and shepherding the flock and so and that's that's the leadership in terms of what actually leads a church there. People who teach in our people who teach Sunday school, things like that but those aren't priesthood callings and I think I mean I mean, obviously, I wouldn't say it's I mean, I wouldn't attend a church it and think is biblical but I think when we seen in Scripture we see qualifications given by Paul in Titus chapter 1 in first Timothy 34 elders and deacons or no elders, also referred to as overseers and so throughout Scripture we also see in the New Testament we see overseers which are bishops in the Bible in the King James Bible overseers and elders and pastors are kind of used interchangeably so we don't have you know like there's there's like a three-tiered organization like a lot of Anglicans having other have like deacons, priests, bishops over them so we just received elders as being the ones that lead the church at a local level and then deacons that also help them in their in their tasks and then the congregation but we do believe that the elders do have actual authority. It's not as if another. Some congregational churches that have this quality of like elders. Kind of like preaching in and doing things but then everything every decision comes unto votes like Democratic but that somehow works Aquino for us. We we see Scripture is elders actually having authority to leave the church so you know we we do submit to their authority when they make decisions. They'll ask us further further input and you know, a lot of times it will take that into you know very serious consideration when making decisions. But at the in the end of the day for a lot of decisions. It's really up to the elders to decide just got a long answer but that makes sense of its it's a limit so I think the balls but slightly different yeah I think mine is is pretty similar to both of you guys to know exactly how works hundred percent but got a board of elders and then it got the deacons that maintain the building and do all that stuff and yeah they do, they do vote in those elders and leave the boat among themselves to the pastors to be. I was really shocked to find because we went to the new member meeting to become official members of the church only a month ago or so, you just begin formal members.

We will not ask any questions they wanted and so we are asking them about how the church functions and all the leadership roles in the pastor said that even the lead Elder, and that just blew my mind like like there's no hierarchy there is no chain of command. It's your not like the greatest elder and here the pastor like how is that this makes sense. You know, distant, and compete, but it was really cool. You definitely made the leadership feel more down to earth more relatable to me. That's one of things I really missed out on in the earliest church because you know the bishop might feel relatable but if you were ever had a basin apostle or the prophet visit your ward is a totally different situation. They did not feel relatable. He has never been in a situation like that, but I remember they were blocking you you all had to be seated before you even bring the person and in the end all be standing up when he walked in standing up as he walked out. There was never really a chance to talk to them. You know they were just a figurehead to somebody for us to see whether anything here, not to have any strong relationship with, and so things I found really refreshing about my church now is stop no pastor I was, Bishop is facing. Susan always wanted to do all I'm doing the ward might wait. This is a ward like I need to stop using this this language is not a bishop used the pastor but you he he remembers things that we tell him that goes out of his way to make us feel welcome and talk to us on Sunday when he sees us and I just really feeling okay. The sky really cares and is currently in my next question and answer enforcement is that you was it difficult to trust the leadership in your church and I think for me, at least, this is one of the biggest struggles coming out of Mormonism.

I was credited to find a good church to go to and I would go to churches and and I jump around a lot at first because I would and three was the pastors preaching style and you'd be very seeker sensitive or go to one where they never really quote the Bible, it will just be you know stories of life. I guess, or if they did quote the Bible. It would just be the message as I just I just didn't feel like it was quite right.

There is a mega church we were going to for a while and I okay I'll think the gospel is this popular where there should be this many people here and so I ended really trust the leadership of the church that I met right now and I deftly get the feeling that they genuinely care about estimates really easy to trust and I find it easier to trust him to because you know my salvation doesn't hinge on whether I trust them or not. Also, they are there.

Truly, voluntarily, and I know that D states will stay there. Leaders are there voluntarily but that's kind of truly kinder not true because they were called to be that and I don't really believe that you have the choice to say no.

In those callings in the Mormon church is looking into, but that's my take on that you because Matthew in terms of five translators of my church trip yet will port it was difficult to get there. Yeah, I'd select a minute and really church how much I kind of minds my journey so that we're just because I got mom a theology dork so you know I really wanted. I treated leaving the LDS church like like a divorce. You know I don't want to jump into a new church to quickly so I was studied for about a year when I what does Scripture say in what I believed in you know, widely Scripture teaches is so I found so I found this this is the only reformat districts in the area really started attending and then I started meeting with pastors there and they're just very welcoming and very very personable. They're very lately seem very trustworthy to me and I could tell that they were being genuine. You know when they would when they invited me in and there said they were glad to have me there so I felt like I never really had trust issues with them specifically but I mean in terms of joining a church gathers deftly this kind of fear of all my gosh, what if I get stuck in another culture, something you know so about a year.

I was like really cautious and like really yelled careful and like wanting to make sure I knew what I believed what I know what Scripture taught and I was worried about getting stuck in a fluffy church that was like lots of wax theology and I like was like Bethel Bethel or Hill song and I see some of those churches in the glory clouds and the smoke machines and stuff and you're like oh my goodness of don't you know that's that's crazy to me but but yes whenever I don't really have trouble with my particular leadership know we can hit it off specially when my pastor is the pastor that baptize me Esther Sarver is a thief is a super theology nerd select as part of the catechizing process. I guess in a like process of becoming a member. We would go over the confession of our church yellow 1689 London Baptist confession of faith and it probably took like three or four times longer than I should have because we go off in tangents he know he be Nina we talking about like a man in a like ancient Greek philosophers. He he does research to Yunnan he be talk about Martin Luther and books we've read and things like that in Zicam it was you back to the confession you know you can get off topic so we really hit it off.

I like I like talking a lot is good guy. All right, how was it for you coming on Mormonism is a difficult to to embrace leadership in Christianity is not initially know select the leadership of our church was really warm and welcoming, from the start.

Like, and not just slightly pastor was that way in the associate pastors were more warm and welcoming. I never had any difficulty approaching any of them and asking questions of the elders have likewise over the years been approachable and wise counselors to me. When needed, and Bible studies that have been led by some of the elders and you have been to their house is really nice to have that. So there you Michael, though there's been times when I've kind of questions. Some things you know you kinda concern me a little bit when the when the lead pastor started publishing books. Not sure exactly why I just I worried that it was a step towards kind of a cult of personality type of thing, but not try to remember that you knows as long as there's not another evidence is that going on that it's okay for them to write a book alone this thing that there's been times of five questions and decisions that were made by try to try to remember to Matthew Suydam of Congregational polity.

You know I'm I'm not on the elders board shall not produce to decisions and discussions that are made about you know when it's time to move on from a from a particular staff member of the church because I try to remember that I try to keep your Hebrews 1317 in mind when I think about those kind of things, which is obey your leaders and submit to them for their keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give it give an account. Let them do this with joy and I was groaning for that would be of no advantage to you. So I try to remember that you have a big you have is Matthew was saying and authority to lead the church and to guide the church's shepherds and from what I know of those men. They take us seriously. So I think times when I've been tempted to be very ultra critical decisions because I like the certain staff member and now he's on to another church. You know, try to be understanding that I'm not privy to all of the reasons why those things happen. So I think this is I've matured as a Christian and I'm not fully mature in any sense.

But as I have matured over the years. It I like is that I keep in mind that that I'm not I'm not an elder you know that there there meetings that go on and discussions that take place. I'm not privy to, so but in terms of trusting the leadership of those so the some of the difficulties I started to have a little bit but also try to keep in mind that I come from a background family background that at times, grumbled about LDS leadership at the local level and so I try to keep in mind that the movie have come by some some tendency to view local leaders may be in the and not the most positive light that I've come by the tenancy honestly and I need to check it musters and musters real evidence to the contrary will fully instituted his really refreshing to me is you. You look at the LDS leadership and they got saying you know it is wrong to ever you know criticize the leader of the church, even if the criticism is true and just the ultimate authority you know mean there such a thing is like, you know, so let Scripture about you not only the prophet would be, but that's what Mormonism basically is the era not accountable to anybody but you look at leadership in Christianity and they are accountable. I is nothing else to the Bible and were encouraged to look in the Bible and look at what their preaching and if this is wrong than we know that's not something that we should be.

But if they are preaching biblically think that's pretty good sign to me at least, it's a biblical church that is the place to be and I guess there still like admin your policies and things like that that I may not agree with the way I can cut it came to terms with it yet. I left Mormonism looking for the perfect church in my first pastor said look, if you find the perfect church. Don't let me come to it because all ruin it.

I really like that quote but I really think there is a perfect church to visit a lot of analyte either. I really love the atmosphere, but the people are kinda standoffish or I really love the pastor and love certain aspects of the something always that I did like I think it's because I was looking for extra big and ex-Mormon that is starting about it like a sandwich you know if the sandwiches.but 90% of the stuff in there stuff that I like.

I'm okay with there being a piece of pineapple and Mary only keeps I can live with that if there's bacon on their cancel out that that bad taste is there's very real positives to Congregational polity because if you think about when changes are made in the LDS church the come down from above and the local leaders read a letter from the pulpit.

This is what the leaders on high have said were going to do and so were all gonna fall in line with this new policy change now and there's really not an opportunity to sail as a congregation of this individual will is that the right decision for different things. You know, and I remember at our church now there was a time when the decision was made to do away with student ministry during the sermon.

Our the adult sermon.

Our and to have the students which are that the middle school and high school students attend the seminar with their parents and they still have the other would still have a Sunday evening or Wednesday evening student time right for their fellowship with their peers, and I remember there there are some difficulties that because when you're when you're parents of teenagers makes it challenging when there like one want to go to the sermon is still a lot of times the topic doesn't apply to me.

You can get into some of the some of the pushback from teenagers that the church united memory, whereas when they have their peer time during that that our the fine with the legacy that friends and hang out thing but I really first have a lot of disagreements about decision and it really was, bothering me and know my wife is like why don't you talk to Philip Botta. Philip was steep with student pastor and so there was an opportunity for me to sit down with them and and asked him you know and I had a lot of concerns.

I felt really strongly know so probably felt to him like I was criticizing him. You know that he sat with me and he talked about the reasons why the decision was made, but they saw the potential benefits for the students in terms of sitting through sermon and hearing the same Bible message that their parents are hearing and didn't know that in death by a biblical training that maybe doesn't always take place within the student ministry because I focused on topics relevant students and so I decided I found it refreshing that I can sit down with them and have even have a conversation that even at times may become below seated, but she was willing to sit down with me and and and take accountability centers why he made the decision.

You know I get that you might not disagree with.

At least here's the reasons why, and I appreciated that you couldn't do that and the other search to try to do that about a decision is most decisions are made about local at the local level and also if you try to go to a local leader and ask about a decision that was made about policy.

They registered yet the chain, and you really would never get an answer so you guys actually tried reaching out to the leaders of the church about changing something archers in our field. Not either. I mean I'm in the Mormon church. Yeah, sorry, no.

I know you got experience with other do I have to talk about this because I totally forgot about and you're bringing about and I just remember wanting to have that kind of experience Mormonism because of these debate groups is a Mormon apologist and he will keep bringing up this him praised of the man's house is not worship Joseph Smith and so I finally wrote a letter to church headquarters and I said I think we should remove this song from me.

What is perceived as being worship and even if the critics are wrong which they most likely are is still an opportunity cost because the doctrine and covenants is that the son of the righteous is a prayer and so we could be singing a prayer to God but instead you're seeing this song to Joseph Smith so I don't think that it benefits us enough you know concerning our image I sent this letter to church headquarters and they got back to me with a little form letter that just basically said we appreciate your thoughts. We are considering what you've said was that it was signed by somebody but it was just a run-of-the-mill form letter and I was like wow yeah just like all. After all, my faithful years after serving my mission for two years and paying tithing all this time it magnifying my colleagues. I'm not worth more than a form letter to you guys so you know Michael will falls off another one on to bomb rolling over yet yet doesn't matter if I get lost let us replace me with somebody else else.

Imagine if they did take her. Your suggestion did apply it now. If they said that's a great idea and then I sent you a bill for all of the hymnals they would. After a place across the entire church. They would do that when they look anyway. Couple years later finding out that they had $100 billion in late were trying to split me the bill was already crazy as he is. Remember these damn janitors in their buildings. Then they made that announcement. One day, one dark Sunday.

He was storming outside that database is now the members responsibility to clean the ward buildings and all my gosh that was always the worst Sunday because you have the people would show up consistently in its need time to be pulling everybody also slackens one family would show up one family and a couple of missionaries yeah you like to families with us and yeah okay I'm basically have to clean the whole the whole building now and then you find out that $100 billion. Yeah it hurts a little bit. Yeah, that's the best popular message that you hear from post-Latter Day Saints that that policy bothers them. Yeah Breanna were here, she would tell you that I have an aversion to chores. It's not one of my spiritual cast into this is the outer podcast we love to hear from you. Please visit the out of my face and feel free to send us a message that send a message of the pain appreciated the July we also have and how to write is another also send this on to hear from you soon, subscribe to the other brightness podcast on Cas box cast cast the modify institution.

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