Overcoming SHAME With Fred Anson - Part 1

This is Robbie Gilmore from the Christian card I am king in pursuit where we hear how God takes your passion and uses it to build the kingdom your chosen Truth Network podcast is starting in just a few seconds. Enjoy it and share it but most of all, thank you for listening and for choosing the truth network. This is the Truth Network in your firefly support here will conduct outer brightness of the next two weeks were going to bring you an interview that we conducted with Fred Anderson. Fred is the driving force behind better spread the Christian blog or bigger share the bread that they so freely and graciously received before Fred converted to Christianity. In the 1970s. He was an atheist. Early in his life as a Christian, he became enmeshed in a high demand Christian cult called the shepherding movement.

Fred visit outer brightness to share his story and what he learned about mind control from his time in the shepherding movement and what he learned from leaving that group at times during the interview. Fred is animated about his advice in the ways that high demand religions control their inherence often times without there even being aware of the fact that there giving away their autonomy to the organization. This is all part of my journey as well. I shared in season one episode 15 and 16. How when I returned from my LDS mission.

I went online to try to find answers to some of the questions I had about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints within a year I was involved in a private discussion board made up of around 10 to 12 people who were all active Latter Day Saints performer Latter Day Saints.

I remember one particularly heated exchange on the board between a woman who was an active Latter Day Saints and the man who'd left the LDS church and become an atheist. The thread was about the ways in which the LDS church and its culture controls and restrains women from reaching their full potential. In this way, the man argued the LDS church exhibits cultlike behavior. The woman I mentioned pushed back against that idea.

She argued that since she freely participates in the LDS church and culture and does not feel constrained by that he could not tell her that she was being controlled reading that thread was a watershed moment for me. A part of my mind open up and I could see that the man was correct about the LDS church and its culture, mind control, but remained in the LDS church for the next two years.

Why, because I also took to heart what the woman had said I thought that if I participated with eyes wide open and by my own free choice I could be alert to and avoid any aspects of mind control, I believe the LDS church was true, so I thought I could stay. I was wrong.

Towards the end of my time in the LDS church as I had conversations with my wife Angela about possibly leaving the Mormon was so wrapped up in my identity that I told her I couldn't imagine ever being anything else. Even with eyes wide open to participation. My mind was conditioned to be closed. Please listen to Fred's advice and consider what he says. I think you'll find that he has a heart for anyone entrapped in a high demand organization, whether it's in a religious commercial, political, or self-help context. As always, thank you for listening and check the show notes for how you can read better spread or get in contact with Fred Hansen and fireflies Michael here when I was questioning the LDS faith. There was one man who was instrumental in helping me seal the deal.

That man was Fred Anson Healy seem to know exactly what to say to get me to think objectively about things. One piece of advice that sticks out to me was to approach Mormonism the eyes of an outsider he told me that a compass won't work in a submarine because of the magnetism and you have to get outside to get your bearings. In retrospect, his advice makes sense as he was formerly a member of a mind control cult shepherding movement. Now we try to avoid using the cult worded outer brightness because of how green it is Latter Day Saints. He called cultists all hours of the day, and as a result, tend to ignore the accusation. However, it's important to acknowledge that there are real cults out there like Scientology in the F LDS church, and to be aware of what makes a cold, occult, and why they are dangerous systems.

We are going to call Mormonism occult, but we will be talking about money. Cult is and then it is up to our listeners to decide for themselves.

So without further ado let's get to discussing this regular glad to have you on board today so Fred and in one of your articles and not beggars bread. You said that you are in a cult for 11 years. What is that mean and how would you define a cult. Well, there are two people from around the state were quite a bit cult were and there are two different kinds of coals. First, there's a theological coal, which means the group that deviates from a standard set of Orthodox to use the Mormon example Latter Day Saints have no problem calling the F LDS occult and I you can go through old & magazines and I can give you" were Mormon leaders have in fact call if LDS church occult.

How can they do that well from the LDS church perspective, the LDS church has deviated from their established orthodoxy. Therefore, there are cold so when a mainstream Christian calls say Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, movies, you know. Take care. A cult typically what they mean is there there talking about a theological coal useful, but I also find it let you know Michael in your introduction you talk about tank and there are all kinds of tanks. I find it helpful to get out of one's tank and look at things more objectively and I find it better to look at the cold word the C word from the perspective of sociology. In other words, what does the group meet a particular set of sociological criteria that defines it as a cult, and the best model that I found there's a lot of models out there but the one kind of takes the mall put small together in a nice way way that's approachable for most people and establishes a good criteria is called the bite model – from a guy named Stephen Hassan if you have if anybody here has watched the television show was Scientology in the aftermath he was a guest on there will not have got it right here on the bite model stands for information control or on-site behavior control information control thought control, and emotional control, and you can go out on the beggars bread website and just do a search on bite VI TE an article, that compares that gives the bite model. First and foremost and then compares both my group, which was the shepherding movement of the 1970s and 80s actually went into started to creep into the 90s before we shut down. It gives a criteria from the bite model and then for Mormonism.

It gives a set of analyses of Mormonism against the bite model of criteria and Stephen Hassan very correctly. I think this is the best way to evaluate any group is to go to former members, former members like Gauls okay are the best source of information for a particular group. Why well because number one they been in the group. They know what happens in the group number two, they they can talk honestly. They're not beholden to talk about the group in particular way which, oh by the way, that's one of the criteria that let mind what it let this list talk about my control really quickly.

Okay people, when you use a mind control, they think of like zombie people that are told by the leader what to do they think of like what was his name Marshall Applegate and Heaven's Gate, they think of Scientology, they think of all these very high control group and they don't realize that there is mind control" all over the place what my control does is it basically gives you the illusion of freedom, but it limits your choices. It says you're only allowed okay good in the world of thought, you're only allowed to think. From here to here, and no further. If you go outside of those parameters.

Well guess what, you're not one of us anymore. We will do bad things and they will you guys are X Mormons and you know for fact that they will need it. If you deviate out outside of those lines. Okay so I am kinda rambling here is that the signature your your questions at some level of satisfaction yeah that's that's a perfect explanation and politically get into that a little bit more is going to the discussion, but I do want to talk a little bit about the shepherding movement and your involvement in it was reading your article in beggars bread and he said he started off as a as a hippie and then you ended up going into the into the shepherding movement, and I understand it's a pretty strict environment. Some wondering how did hippie Fred end up getting involved in a religion like that will also another accident which is I was an atheist hippie, so I wasn't I wasn't just a hippie. I was a shake your fist at the sky not say very nice words to God. I was one of those guys okay and that you know about the whole thing about being hippie is total freedom man. I mean you not know what is. Tell me what to do.

Question authority did and I was one of those guys and that that they funny thing is being at an atheist hippie. There were more rules is an atheist hippie. Then there are is a Christian you know you could get in trouble with the hip is faster than than he could with the with the religious folks in a heartbeat. So in that world of apparent no constraints anything matters. What's funny is all of us really well.

I would say those of us that are healthy.

We really do want some boundaries in our lives.

We want to know where the guardrails are.

We want to know. Hey, you know, if you go too far with this way. This list too far over that way you know it's probably not a good place to go in and up in a ditch and what the shepherding movement offered was that I wasn't the only activity in the shepherding movement. Okay, I got into the group in 1976 you got understand that this is coming from an era of where everybody was in that question authority live for yourself. Look out for number one. All of that stuff was going on and was also a very different culture than when we got today. Those of us that grew up in the 60s and the 70s we basically grew up without fathers because the culture back then was dad worked himself to the bound of you know, 40 to 60 hours a week providing for the family while mom was home and so we had well we had mothers.

Most of this most of us didn't have father's deluded neck father figure. So the shepherding movement also offered us because test to explain the system.

Everybody had a shepherd impact and that was somebody that you are quote unquote accountable for and the idea of the DB pitch if you will, is that this guy is going to be the shepherding he's going to be the person who looks out the lookout for your interest and guide you along the way he's going to be. He's gonna be Paul to your tenants. Okay now exit route regress just grow quickly and stay that the shepherding movement was not from a Christian perspective was not a theological call.

We work our theology was down.

We adhered to that to the essentials of the Christian faith.

In fact, we had a very robust and healthy theology. What we didn't have was that we didn't have a good application of theology and see that a lot of people tend to miss is you can be in a Christian group. This, in my control. Okay, I'll just give you the name of one church and heads will start not as soon as I state the rating Westborough back okay Westborough Baptist and if you don't know who they are. Just go to Wikipedia, is a mind control cult. It's only granted I been told there's only about 50 people in it and is shrinking. The selected vocal because there are the rules and then there are the rule, so that the shepherding movement was was very attractive, because number one I was dumb as a brick I can say I can sit honestly now I was 16 years old. I didn't have a clue. I thought that I knew everything and guys are playing right now. Will guys and Breanna love the granite and I'll tell you right now.

I didn't know anything.

But the big snare.

The thing that's going to get get anybody into a my control coal is being too darned smart thinking that it could never happen to me that it can never happen to me are the last words of every my control cultist in the world and I'm here I'm sitting here I'm telling you right now it happened to me. Okay. And it happened to me with the best of intentions on my part in the best of intentions on their part of the guys the leaders in our group. They were trying to hurt us they thought that they were what they were doing was for our benefit. They thought that what they were doing was in our best interest. You know that there was a joke in the shepherding movement that there are basically two classes of people.

There were the guys who mow the lawns and there were guys about the lawns.

Note now only fill in that joke a little bit. The leaders got there there lawns mowed they got there lawns mowed because they were in their mind with the best of intentions, teaching us how to stir so those of us that were the second-class citizens. And I know that you know I'm talking a bunch of ex-Mormons.

I know that there's no class system and Mormons right okay I see a few grins I see of a few a few heads nodding a little bit batching around little bit in it and all my control cult stairs. If there is some type of classes that the higher up the hierarchy and move the better things get, for the most more stuff to get so the cool New term for my control cult is no longer my control is a better term, in my opinion and that is on ethical persuasion groups that engage in unethical persuasion. If you know what you're getting into an advanced because one of the criteria for micro vocal this information control act as as I heard one ex-Mormons put it so well.

They said you know they don't tell you any of the weird stuff Intel you are you've Artie been in the church been baptized been in the church for about a year and then you get it and then for just a moment you wonder how I got myself into it and then you go to the temple you really really think type, I still into because it is that the information starts to kind of trickle out trickle out trickle out pretty well, and tell the door/behind you and you don't know when or how that happened but here I am, so best answered the question might nobody says hey jeepers this Monday.

I think after I drink my coffee, I'm doing my control cult. What happens is you get approached by people they turn you into a project through the nicest charming mustard usually very attractive people because that that high demand culture, people tend to be very high-performance. They tend to be very smart people, very bright people. Achievement oriented and to the.

The initiative they initiate the investigator if you will. The thought is, jeepers, I sure would like to be like most people, and when I met the people I've been testing a good answer question at some point might just be patient when I met these people be leaders in this group was like yeah I want this guy is awesome I you want me to cut my hair.

That was a big deal back then. I mean look at me now that it's not an issue. Now the back then do my hair cut those big deal. Okay, but I did it because I wanted to be like leaders so see how I do and it did not answer that one that I over answer yes it perfectly okay. Good yeah think you for sharing that Fred so he talked in the beginning how that's the rules for the shepherding movement were stricter than for most Christian churches. So would you like to go more into some of those rules.

I don't know how specific you want to get but would you like to talk to bit more about how it stricter than most Christian churches. Matthew, I would be delighted to talk about some of the rules. First of all, one of the things that is in every single mind control coal out there is elitist cultist believe sincerely and they have reasons for they will give you the reasons of US spatter there. There better than the average. There are a notch above everybody else okay and that the reason why they think that is because they have remember what we talked about the lines right, let's say that societies lines around here somewhere right well our groups because were special word gift were better than the average bear I mean by government. Most people wouldn't want to be in our group because we are so written demanding we we don't settle for mediocrity. Oh, heck no word word wouldn't call us a shepherding movement.

By the way you called ourselves. We called ourselves the income we you know those of us that are in covenant work were living that covenant way okay were not like those losers out there that are in our group because we figured you know if you really wanted to be the best of the best of the best cream of the crop. You had to be in our little circle you had to be in covenant okay so the result is there's demands their spoken demands are unspoken demands there's rules there's rules for the rules. It just goes on and on and on. And sometimes you don't even know where those lines are drawn. I mentioned the thing about hair. One of the rules as yet have short hair guys when I was that I hope we don't lose any viewers here, but when I was a hippie. I was a registered Democrat. Okay good craft. How dear you so guess what I changed but my party affiliation. Now can anybody tell me in the Bible where it says you have to be one particular party mean you know if I if I decide I want to be a libertarian. You know, do you really think that that the people in my church are going to frankly I don't think the care I think someone actually like it if I did that but yet you know it's there is a matter of unconscious but good grief in the shepherding movement. He couldn't be a Democrat know you couldn't have longer now. If you attend a meeting you had to wear a tie. There is no plan B. You will wear a tie and if you want to be a leader you will wear a suit and the thing that outsiders used to always say about us as we were the notebook.

Why, because one of the unspoken who is it you would board meetings with your notebook.

You have to set the reason for you have your Bible you have your pen and have her notebook and in the meeting, you would take copious notes. Why does this sound familiar ex-Mormons because that man up on stage he is giving you the word of the Lord for you. This is important stuff and not only should you be taking copious notes. You should probably buy the tape when this thing is over so that you can listen to at 1520 times and really get this stuff. Does this sound familiar to anybody here.

I don't know the words.

General conference come to mind. For some reason I don't know why they just do. Okay, you know, people used to people used to tell us that the outsiders that were critical of the state. Say you know you guys would make great Mormons. You look like a good talk like you like okay so yeah, Matthew.

There were there were so many rules, it wasn't even funny. How about this one garden like this one less time at the time, chowing. Let's talk about tithing, you paid your time directly to your pastor or Shepherd your Shepherd made sure you were paying there, and your Shepherd have the right to look at that check and say brother Branson Brett now you wouldn't steal from the Lord which I mean this is and if you are really spiritual know because if you know if the if the tide was, let's say hundred dollars and and three cents.

If you really spiritual you ground that ties check up to $101 you would write the Lord check for $103, that's not the type of thing that the Lord bless his brother Branson. The Lord loves a generous and so if you didn't pay your time if your Shepherd didn't get that ties check every two weeks. Guess what, you would hear hey Hennessey net capital. Well what's going on you know any.

I was always know we just want to make sure you're not missing the Lord's blessing is any of this sound familiar matters. What is it that temple recommend. Last June I find that's something like that. They might not jump on your case every two weeks but in the events announcing it towards into the area than you have to make an account tithing settlement meeting BBF most notorious guidance that will so yeah there were there were more rules and you can shake a stick at my music was scrutinized. I was a musician, I played days and I love I love rock 'n' roll. I still love rock 'n' roll by gum. Don't even get me started. I was a total headbanging arousing of the heavy stuff will by today's standards, not the heavy stuff this is this is pre-Metallica guys okay this was pre-motorhead.

This was you know this was by today's standard. Nothing that I was into it and we would go through understanding modern office needs anything that's Mormons that we were like required to go through the build author institutes in something or other, but we went through bit Bill got there what he would he would bang on rock 'n' roll music is music of the devil and I broken burn more records. It did. I feel a pang in my heart, thinking that some of the rare vinyl that I broken burn. Back then, it's just it kills me stuff that I would just love dearly to have today but if you know you had to be listening to "Christian music and of even then there was some contemporary Christian music. You know like things like that. I'm really gonna date myself and you guys are going to going will who resurrection band.

Oh, you know, you Petra. Oh no EE how it's I hate it and this'll make you laugh.

There was that there was a thankful backward masking the true story.

There's a thing called backward masking where all the Christians believe that if you play the records backwards.

They had satanic message and because with vinyl you could you could turn the record, backward, singularly good here will have you play stairway to heaven. Backwards I was the big one, have you really played immaculately it says sell your soul to the devil or something and that's the shepherds really believe this I mean you know it it if if you were if you were good shepherding value or listening to stuff like Pat Boone and Norma Zimmer and I mean you know if you're a I headbanging rock 'n' roll are like me and I was like really really so yeah I mean it. Matthew just went on and on and on and sometimes it was just very arbitrary sometimes know you would talk to one Shepherd would be okay with resurrection band and then another Shepherd wouldn't bet you did because you know this was this was the way work you did what you Shepherd set. You know the good thing is when this whole thing about this house part finally crumble. I had my pastor was always banging on me about my music that he actually came in apologetic and said no.

I think that a few things too far and I said him and you know we know that we were we were all in. So there you go Constantine's intention laugh so fair that that's fast and you get the questions affronted by many a little bit off script the snacks and I'm slammed and asked you, you know how how you were quote unquote unsnapped from the mind control that you are in. But before you answer that I want to hear a little bit about how the shepherding movement had interplay with your local church and how that how that can enter how the two interacted or did day or was the shepherding movement, a completely separate congregation that you would attend the sounds like maybe it was more of a check parachurch organization so talk about that. If you would know there is a hierarchy, you know, again like like like I said outsiders told us all the time you guys would make great Mormons because you know you are accountable to your Shepherd.

Well your Shepherd had a Shepherd in your Shepherd.

Shepherd had a Shepherd in at the type top of this, for lack of a better term, and it wasn't a peer pyramid scheme but I don't know what else to call it but at the top of this pyramid scheme or five guys and outsiders like him guys like Chuck Smith and and Walter Martin in that the critics of our movement. They called him the column of the five horsemen of the apocalypse. That was the nickname form and if you go on that. My biggest read article on the micros referring to it. I think I called it that my life is a Michael control cultist part one or something like that. I never got the part two because I started to do the bite model for the shepherding movement was just overwhelming. I just it just was too much. But if you go there. There's a picture that the banner art for that article was a picture of the early leadership and the five leaders are there and see if I can name and they were, for Derek Prince Charles Simpson earned Baxter and Don Basham. Those were the five guys that they are the people that started this whole thing, but we we were basically what you might call a splinter group from the charismatic movement of the 1970s authorities guys were independent Bible teachers.

They saw some of the weird, wacky stuff, and even back then. The charismatic movement was with its wasn't as out there as it is now, but it was still pretty weird and they said you know we gotta fix this in their answer to West. I mean, again I can't stress this is not good intentions, the best of intention their intentions was we need to put some structure around us and we need to get it fixed and but their way of doing it was just wrong, i.e. it was just wrong. It was superduper super Duper controlling and so there you go, I'm I'm kind of feel like it betrays Campana coming off the tractor on you all that, but there you go. Now we have our own churches are churches who would report to the pastor of another church. My particular church was in Costa Mesa and then we moved to Irvine and his pastor was in Mission Viejo of the, the pastor of the guy Mission Viejo was in Mobile, Alabama, and most of the five guys will see Derek Prince was in Florida Don. They were scattered all over the country. But yeah, your church was accountable through this hierarchy of task of shepherds and that's how it worked and so we would talk about other churches like a get it if somebody came you know if you saw he said well I'm looking for a church in San Diego.

Okay you guys have a church we say oh yes, we have a covenant Church in San Diego S. George Curry's group down and also I hear that there's another one that's forming in Escondido and I don't know who that Shepherd is down there but there's one down there as well.

So the saying it. If you can't tell if it was this hierarchy. The good thing about the movement as everything was very relational. You guys know me pretty well and you know that the thing that's really important to me is the relationship, and I think I'm I'm pretty good at forming those relationships and maintain so one of the skills I got from the shepherding movement was focused on on having good relationships, having tight relationships and making sure that those relationships are maintained. So it wasn't. It wasn't like you could go to the wall and there would be a map of churches is it's not like the Mormon church where you can you know you got this formal structure. It was very informal and based on relationship with those relationships were very controlling. Again, there were the guys about the lawns mowed and there were the guys that mowed the lawn and sometimes you would have to give an elaborate best.

Sometimes the pastor one church you would bring over an army of guys and they would all be working on his pastor's house and Timbuktu someplace and that's just how work. It was very, very relational, but still you can be relational, but you can still be in an oppressive controlling relationship with somebody SSA thanks for getting that clarification on on the fact that it was really a church movement and not that of parachurch movement, listening to our brightness contrast from persons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn when selling greatness is moving in million nationalities except for Michael same thing that is we were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have that that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teaching.

The name of the podcast out of brightness six, John 19 because Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own comes to us from without. That's out of brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son give conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around. Appreciate that. So what was it than that. The guy you unsnapped from from the mind control how tobacco about will okay with talk about on snapping just trying to in general because this is a this is a big question, and people that people always wonder why I use the term snapping well it's it's what snapping is is remembered. Talk about the parameters okay and what happens when somebody's and a snack state is the thoughts can only go between these two parameters right so hippie Fred would think outside of these parameters well a person visits any mind control coal day and in the thing is if a big red flag waving is if somebody says okay you shouldn't be reading that you shouldn't be watch because pay your counter ready because if you do, you will be thinking the right thoughts. Now they don't use those words they don't say, well, yeah, you know you can't think that way because that's to blame comes across more like this garbage and garbage out. You gotta keep your mind sure brother.

Gotta keep your mind. I'll tell you guys right now. I watch what I want to. I read what I wanted. I listen to what I want to news music, you name it looks. I read everything I read. I I will deliberately read books from atheist authors.

I in addition to all the books give you guys and see my reading list. I mean II read in fact been criticized because I just read voraciously I read everything so I don't limit my thoughts anymore, but somebody was in a snack state okay if you cannot meet your talking hippie Fred say I my favorite band.

My high school band was abandoned by the name of Emerson like K really weird strange guys even back in there where strange guys but some of the most amazing progressive rock of the world is ever now, but as soon as I became a Christian site will know Emerson Michael Palmer is no longer within the two line so my values change all of a sudden the guy who adored Emerson, Lake and Palmer said I can't go there. I can, I can't think those strong I can't listen to the song, my values of change so that this is no longer acceptable. You do a process called thought stopping, so thought stopping means I just can't go there. I won't go there right so somebody who's in a snack condition simply will not look at anything that is critical of their movement that is derogatory about their movement. The present state countering point of view that presents evidence that could disrupt or upset their preferred narrative and be honest what's noticed is thought stopping clichés. I've Artie used a couple of garbage in garbage out as 100. Keep your mind pure is some other ones that you're going to go there even in Christian churches is avoid the appearance of evil. You know the one that you hear in Mormonism is what you don't lose your testimony. I mean it that there's an article when I my friend she is always a way in atheist okay she wrote a brilliant book on Mormon mind control her name is well. She keeps changing her name because she's kinda New Age in and out there, but at the time her name was Luna Fletcher and she wrote a book called them recovery agency and it's about Mormon mind control. She has an entire chapter on this issue. I got her permission to publish an excerpt of that chapter and I put it up in a Facebook group.

I think I can remember the name of the group that is extent, but it's in a public group or anybody can see it and she has an entire list of all the clichés that people use thoughts.so the way that you want to get back your question about the way that you unstop is very simple. You start thinking you start thinking for yourself. So rather than listening to what the leaders tell you and going to the sources that the leaders tell you that you should be going to it all.

By the way guys if you don't want to be in a call if somebody says you should read that go read it if somebody says you should watch that watch it if somebody says you shouldn't think that thinking okay it doesn't mean, okay, I'm sorry my my soapbox now. Just because you hear something just because you read something just because you listen to a particular kind of music doesn't mean that you have to accept it. It is possible to to to receive any information and reject it. Say oh that's good.

I understand where the authors come from. I understand what that piece of evidence is saying. But that's not the conclusion that I come to and that's all right that's okay but at least considerate.

You know I would recommend here I am. I am a born-again Christian man.

I'm someone that I think you guys know me pretty well. I'm pretty rounded biblical worldview and intelligent rebar read Richard read these guys listen to what they have to say because if you listen to what they have to say you can if you can look at it critically and go okay you know he even makes you make some good points, Richard Dawkins makes some good points.

Lately all of the people that know Christians are typically like who those guys back okay they not everything that they say is is necessarily wrong, it may be skewed. It may be imbalanced okay but it is at least listen to what they have to say any keyword evaluated way. It just because you read something doesn't mean you have to believe it. It's just an opportunity to use the noggin that God gave you to use to get through this passage okay so the way that you unsnapped is by thinking the way that you get a cultist I if I'm ahead of us too far.

But the way that you get a cultist to unsnapped to come out of that snapped psychological state basically was somebody on snaps. All of a sudden these two lines will know the seven world opens now they're taking in the entire world there taking the entire spectrum there in Michael's introduction.

Talk about the tank I got an article called my map to help me hear something about the Mormon tank.

But anyhow if you want bigger friends search on Mormon tank. You'll find the article we have to get out our tanks we have to evaluate our system from the outside looking in all calls are a closed system that this is the circle that we must think within you don't go outside those lines.

You just don't do it. Okay, if you beat that is the tank you need to get out and go is this thing really makes sense. If I look at this thing from the perspective of an atheist. If I look at this thing from the perspective of a Hindu or Buddhist or somebody you know somebody who's in Islam. How does that work again. What were talking about here is called critical thinking your you're getting the information and you are Wayne and evaluating it doesn't mean you're accepting it. It just means that you're evaluating now is Christians, we can still say okay that's all well and good, but my standard is the Bible. My absolute standard for everything is the Bible. How does that compare Bible and that's fine because can you see what it can see the difference.

There rather than I'm not going to look at that because that's not the Bible were saying okay, how does that compare and contrast what the Bible say so it's a very different it. It's a very different saying it and the key thing is think for yourself if you're in a group that same know you're not allowed think that black to finish the sentence or can you by now.

Can you guys finish it for me. You need to really think about that roof.

That's if that's the message you're getting that alcohol is healthy. I think that was coming to my my mind is you are talking was second is 10 five we destroy arguments and every high lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God and take every thought captive to obey Christ.

So are our our our allegiance is to Christ into the word of God necessarily to a shepherd quote unquote that you had within the shepherding movement or to a bishop give an example of an experience I had quickly as a latter-day say I was a returned missionary and I come home and was interested in learning things. I went to the bookstore and picked up a book.

It was a book by Graham Hancock, who is kind of the and individualistic journalist and he'd written a book called the fingerprints of the gods, which was about trying to understand why pyramid groups in the New World lined up in the same ways that the pyramid groups in Egypt lineup with the belt of Orion that the consolation Orion and other things and so I was reading this book at a award dinner and that the gentleman who had been my young men's president.

As I was growing up in the LDS church came over so I was reading something asked me what I was reading and I showed them that the cover of the book and then he saw that it was the fingerprints of the gods.

They looked and he said that that sounds apostate and it was it was a moment in time for me that maybe go now wait a minute I'm not allowed to read what I want to read what what's going on here you know so yeah I told you we were talking about their book, but like you are make the point you're making. At the end there. Frederick, our allegiance to Christ and not to movement correct right I mean that the plumb line of if I make a decision to be a Christian plumb line is the Bible and you know what I've just advocated only put a copy on don't recommend it from your Christian. I recommended for people that have been through the Bible that no one by the sentence and have formed some type of systematic theology.

You know you have to and also just so you understand one of the big influences in my life was a guy named Francis Schaeffer solo a lot of what you're getting here guys is is is basically Francis Schaeffer through nano through Friday Hassan many many years later, but Schaeffer read everything he watched everything he evaluate but Schaeffer also you know he had a Masters degree from Westminster seminary so you know we have a framework work that he could he could look at that stuff and Schaeffer. I'm gonna tell you that the shipper story to illustrate what I'm talking he was dealing with. He had a little community up in Switzerland called the great and he was dealing with everybody. Everybody from X burned out hippies like me to people that have been in the occult atheists you know he was dealing with ex-drug addicts he was dealing with guys that were currently PhD's Oxford professors, you name it. He realized that if he was going to practice what he preached was that I need to get out of his Christian tank and evaluate his belief system from outside of the Christian perspective and his wife Edith, she likes what he didn't like. But she admits she was scared she was really really scared because shavers are really smart.if some of this stuff can be very, very seductive. I mean, I have been I have fallen in the snares I have fallen into into ditches. II mean I could come out of this interview and fall into another one. I'm not perfect. You know it's it's a people problem and by golly, I'm a people right but Schaeffer came back because he had that foundation because he had that biblical foundation. He was able to look at it all and come back stronger. He had a better appreciation of the world that we lived in. He had a better stronger Christian worldview than he had before he went through that process rather than disdain in his Christian tank and you know it is limited himself to the line he was able to do it so one of the things that I see you need a guy I normal my soapbox again is is I see Christians doing this with Mormons all the time all the time. It's like okay will I expect you to look at my countering evidence in the warming comes back and says oh yeah will.

Are you willing to look at this video from states unscripted will know? What do I need to do that.

Are you willing to look read this article from Fairborn will know this – a biased ally when you good to hear anything that the one telling you Christians and I went on talking to everybody all the Christians are listening to this read the article. Watch the video. Listen to what they have to say. Just because you watch it or listen to it doesn't mean that you have to accept it.

Why because a lot of times the arguments collapsed and hung on themselves. A lot of times you realize how badly arguments really really are that if you're going to ask the other guy get out of his take. You gotta get out of your tank to so there it is. I mean, you know what I'm really advocating here is just one word thinking, but not just thinking thinking from a biblical worldview because at the end of the day. I'm a Christian I'm's still going to crack that book and say okay Mark Herman says this. What does the text actually say you know I'll give you give you point Mark Herman makes the point in one of his books that Satan, the casino's earnest big thing was the whole issue of the audit and he talks about how how the Bible presents Satan as the servant of God. Okay, pretty rad. Wouldn't you say green mind blowing. But if you stop and think about it guys. It makes sense. All you have to do is turn to the book of Job, and you see it you see that God is so sovereign that even Satan has to obey him now have ice just said anything that falls outside of the lines of biblical orthodoxy. I mean, I am looking you guys for accountability.

I don't think I have but so you can look at Herman.

You say you have a point, you have you actually have a case from the Bible. The way that you presented in your book is wrong. The words that you use is wrong, but guess what part Herman just made me think you just need to get out of my little evangelical box and you know which you know if you listen this to certain theological camps within evangelicalism. Sometimes I think that some Christians think that Satan is more powerful and, in part, Herman of all people just quit Satan back in its place, which is under God's foot Mark Herman of all people is preaching that there the reality that God is in control and that the sovereign of the universe is God and even Satan has two obey.

So yeah that sounds like what you have advocating here in a way is the golden rule two you know if you want somebody to look at what organist say we need to be willing to look at what they're going to stay in somebody outside of our bubble could have something profound connection shape us to see the truth more clearly.

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