What About Sacraments?, Redux: The Lord's Supper, Pt. 3 (Articles of Faith Series)

Beginning with all things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life and the life light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.

We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in court in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ.

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It comes to us from without.

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We each discussed our past experiences as Latter Day Saints related to the nest necessity of baptism and the sacrament what most Christians refer to as the Lord's supper, communion, etc. whether differences in viewpoints on the sacraments or ordinances disrupts the unity of the Christian church and how we now prepare and receive the Lord's supper and baptism as born-again Christians.

In this episode we would like to take a closer look at the subject in previous episodes. We've described our personal journeys out of the LDS church and toward biblical Christianity and continuing our faith journeys. One topic that was of particular concern to me was what water baptism is what it signifies, who must receive it and whether it is still an absolute requirement for eternal life. The same is true for the sacrament. Why do Christians do it, do they believe the same things that I did about it.

Does God do anything. The sacrament or is it a memorial only during this episode we hope to address some of these questions and describe how we have grown in our understanding of Scripture concerning the Lord's supper.

The Lord's table or communion.

While we three may have differing views on these topics.

We recognize that there is room for disagreement based on the teachings of the word of God. We all recognize this to be an important topic in the baptism and communion are commanded to be observing Christchurch by the Lord himself while he may not understand them in the same way. We acknowledge that we are brothers in Christchurch and that we each are seeking to follow him to be conformed to his image and that we must be willing to be teachable Christians journey never ends.

All of this conversation, reminds me of one of the experiences that was kinda maybe maybe a straw that helps to break the camels back.

I was teaching elders quorum in this this happens may be within the last year before we left the LDS church. The missionaries had brought with them one of their investigators.

He was he was a rough looking dude she had a long black trench coat longhair Nobis was the kind of unshaved that he was growing a beard just unshaved right and this reeked of cigarette smoke. You know every everything that for a Latter Day Saints is absolutely not the way you would go to church right no white shirt and tie.

You know, T-shirt and jeans under his trench coat and he came to elders quorum with with the missionaries and we were we were in the teaching and in the chapel rice.

We were up on the on the stand right so I'm there all sitting in the chairs on the stand and I'm standing in by the pulpit facing them teaching and everyone in elders quorum sat on one side of the aisle, and she and the missionaries sat on the other side of the aisle the entire hour that I was teaching no one would sit on the side of the aisle with them.

That's rough and he was clearly hungering and thirsting right. But he wasn't clean. According to LDS dictates. You know it is just it was one of those expansiveness like this is not the way things are supposed to be that there's something wrong here that causes this kind of thing to happen you know ends yeah it was tough experience. I think I think we should also add that Christians are not immune to that kind of thing and I mean sure that the Christians are also we we all were all broken in SNC, not to some degree were all trying to seek after God brought trying to overcome the power of sin in our lives, but at the same time.

Like you said, I think there's there's a train like individual in on individual gap between what what we are what we should be and have a systemic difference in a systemic view of something like you said it's it's a doctrinal view that like we shouldn't be partakers of something as unclean Latter Day Saints church ration, you shouldn't associate with that kind of a person in a resident within Christianity in I think we focus a lot on I like setting. We try to focus a lot on reaching out to those who do need it.

You are the poor and hungry and and who are seeking after God so you know where course were not knowing why does your next set of experiences to be like a lot better than uniting in record time. I had my share of being judgmental for sure, for which I have to repent, you know, but it is just one of those experiences that made me realize you made. Maybe the doctrines about individual perfection and strict righteousness. You know can lead to some pharisaical behavior right more in the way that you treat people and like you said it's it's it's the human condition right we we regularly look at the look at what Christ taught and the way he was criticized right he's with publicans and sinners will know coming into a Christian church. You know the way that spaces will yeah that's what we should all be doing right for them to follow our Lord that's what we should all be doing right you should be wealthy and welcoming those people who are hungering and thirsting and in and not you know seeking for the best places to sit will remember to when I first came to Christianity account had this men's group. I had a meeting at my house and they're all talking about how they came to save one of them, this bigger. You know, cut it dangerously can guide me in psyche nearly came Christ revealed himself to me. Why was in prison and I'm sitting there like just kind of inching away from them just like this. This just seemed right. You know, coming from from my background site. Christ just comes to those who were who are righteous you know who or who are already kinda clean and are taking care of things in closing that gap themselves, not people who were, you know, in behind bars or whatever, but yet to find that a change in my perceptions. For sure, and I definitely like the doctor knows you know were all sinners. You'll we just we all just in different ways for sure not have had similar experiences in men's group Bible studies.

Michael you know if one of the first times I went to Bible study in my church there was a guy in there and Mike and you know he gestured very openly about a very similar story when you were to talk about like how you been in prison and cucumber Lord in prison and you are just it just struck me like you know I don't think in the LDS church if someone had been in prison that I ever would've learned that from their own mouth because they wouldn't have felt comfortable sharing it. I maybe would've learned it via gossip but I never would've heard it first from somebody's own mouth.

I don't think MS just is just one of the differences you know where if you know your Lord and you know you have been saved in your exception.

You have peace with God. You can share your story with others freely and its life-giving to you and that I didn't experience that kind of humility that kind of authenticity within Mormonism. It's been amazing to see in Christianity, yet a mantis is just an amazing to be able to be authentic as well. Just know like hey everybody that I'm here talking to is broken were all sinners here. We all know that it's it's Christ alone that you know gives us our hope and so yeah I magically see it in others, but I see them myself as well. So it's been really nice so we are quite quite quite far afield of maybe the question but that that's related to what Paul is addressing in this passage so we can go on actually is okay if I can continue on that conversation and a little bit which ties into the passage. Far be it for me to try to stop you and make this seven session but know one thing that came to mind that I wanted to ask that input in the questions was, it talks about okay, here it says for as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup to proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever therefore eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord when a person examine himself then and so eat of the bread and drink the cup for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. A big part of latter-day St. worship is being worthy is making sure that you are living the commandments making sure your learning to some standard and if you're not then you should not partake of what they call the sacrament. But that's the bread and water, what and so I want to talk about this. There's there's just talk about being unworthy or those who drink without discerning the body. Things like this. So do you think this is the same kind of worthiness that Paul is talking about in this passage as compared to Latter Day Saints doctrine where they say that you have to be living a certain standard in terms of the commandments being possibly you know close to temple worthy is I would. Paul talking on here or do you think may be stuck with something else crack at it first here, but I would say that it's it's not the same thing that Latter Day Saints or implying because what they're basically implying is that you know where we are worthy of going to the temple which is the house of the Lord and where worthy to enter Christ's presence not enter Christ presence. We need to be perfect. That is the standard that he has set in.

So that is not a possible standard for us to keep so I know that when I was LDS.

You know, if I took the sacrament. It is because I was sweeping sins under the rug are trying to say that maybe they weren't that big of a deal. You know, just kind of justifying things, but in reality I don't think we would ever take or be able to take the sacrament or communion.

If worthy meant. You know you're ready to enter heaven's gates right now and so when I look at that. I just think I said and in my churches. Yes, we should examine ourselves if there is if there is sin that we are just not repentant of you know, we may want to abstain from taking it. You know for just assuming all we want kind of but yet I think I think really it's enough or if you're not a Christian number or you just not taking it seriously you I think that's kind of what it's talking about there but it's something to be talking about the LDS interpretation right good. It's and it's not and it's not similar to the Roman Catholic interpretation where you you have to go to confession and confess your sins to the priest and beams all the stands before you can partake of what they called egress to the mass right so you we would also discover that I think that there is a sense in which discerning the body has to do with an individual believer right because he says examine yourself right so the Lord's supper. It signifies the believer participates in the sacrifice of the Lord right receiving its benefits that come through that sacrifice to believers but also participating with the Holy Spirit in the work of sanctification to purge sin from that believer's life, Christ, the one with God in Christ also one with fellow believers in Christ right if we go back to the context of the love feast right love feast is Apollo's football is critiquing here is people who are not. Not having sight of their fellow believers right.

A gluttonous leader drinking to drunkenness and they're not there not keeping sight of the needs and the welfare of their fellow believers. So the Lord's supper significant signifies to God that a person is in covenant relationship to God and renounces all their false gods.

As we talked about all of their idols. And as we discussed with baptism the signifies is on the Lord side of the battle between good and evil.

The Lord knows who are the elect is not as if God only knows who is in covenant relationship with them by who partakes but there's real significance in the Lord's supper and Sophie were talking about that discerning the body thing and put that in the context of love feast units is that horizontal and vertical relationship thing right for the vertical right, the relationship of the individual believer with God, but also horizontal right and then Paul does that with with when he talks about the body of Christ. She talks about the church right. The church is the body of Christ. Does that elsewhere, and so I think he's doing a similar thing here to write because of the context of love feast right.

He sees kind of thing like if you if you know if you don't have that regard for your fellow believers if you're coming here to displace this feast that should be a feast of unity between each between ourselves, but also with God. If you're coming here and getting drunk and rowdy and and eating gluttonous Lee and showing no regard for your fellow believers who are going to be going hungry.

You might as well stay home and your eating and drinking judgment on yourself because you're not partaking in and what this is, in the way that it's intended so yeah and it is an interesting way that he uses discerning the body but but I think he's playing with that that that term body in the way that she does elsewhere in referencing the church is the body of Christ. But I so both to know so yeah think for that sorry Dominica drop them so read something from customer to what I thought was interesting. He he pretty emphatically says that is specifically speaking of the body of the Lord and not of the body believers as reasons why, but I'm not saying that it's entirely impossible either in Army and I think I do, lean towards what you're saying Paul that it's because it does come in the context of you know were all should be unified in the body of believers and what were partaking of his ribs as the body of Christ. So what he says here, as does the term body in verse 29. Refer to the body, the Lord, as in some translations is an abbreviation for the body and blood of the Lord.

Verse 27 or as a reference to the body. Believers chapter 10 verse 16. Almost all commentators understand this verse, verse 29. In light of its immediate context that speaks of the body, the Lord they see a close connection between verses 27 and 29 commentators understand that the better manuscripts omit the words of the Lord as modifiers of the term body, yet they understand that this particular term is a shortened form of the full clause the body and blood of the Lord. Verse 27 and Leslie doubt that Paul expects the reader to perceive that he means the body believers. Paul is referring to the body of the Lord which the communion bread encumbers represents only to bring that up because some manuscripts have the doesn't just say body on that last phrase is just a body body and blood of the Lord. So I think it's a many scripts they they probably expand on that to make it more specific to whoever was copping at the public. They probably covered outweighed what whether that's original and I'm sure I'm going to the text criticism of that but I want to give that argument that yet that he's think to specifically talk about the body, Lord, but I think it can also be talking about their ocular document taking them bread and wine unworthily. I think for most commentaries I've read Avenue and Sam Waldron's exposition of the 1689 confession he says that the most important and I think most computers is the most important is that when you have faith in Christ. That's the absolute essential so you discerning the body and blood of Christ in the supper. What that represents.

If you don't have faith. It doesn't matter what you your mind can assent to know what what you can think about it. You need faith. You should not be taking the Lord's supper if you're not a believer and as you said Paul, if you take it and you're not a believer in, unless the most important thing then you can bring judgment upon yourself and assessing the later pulses of summits became sick and even died because of it. Such a serious thing that's really serious, is of God. If you're taking the supper and you shouldn't be and so is a really important thing to remember that we need to be believers in Christ, and some have taken that to mean discerning the body.

I've heard some people use arguments of that to say that you need to discern that it contains the localized physical body of Christ do not think of her that from both Lutherans and Roman Catholics, and I just don't think that's what it's saying we've Talked about the context of the guess what it's implying in terms of being unworthy and I and our church. We talk about you should be of true believer in Christ be trusting in him alone for your salvation and you should be a member of a church in good standing. So I don't think it's I don't I don't think you have to be sinless. Obviously that's that's going way too far at same time as Michael. He said we should not be practicing engrossing yelling adulterous relationships or whatever it may be, you know, so asked if important, but it doesn't mean like any other strategizing my goal.

You and I have talked about how sometimes preparing for the Sacramento District would go throw it back okay to repent of this you know what sins that remembering you know, kind of freaking out about making sure that I was that I repented of everything, but I don't. I mean I think about things like that in the Lord's supper and ask forgiveness now, but it's not. It's not like an OCD kind of thing where when freaked out like well I am I an amount ready for this are not worthy of this, it is more of a just trusting in God and in his promises will and I remember my parents like would drill this story in the me all the time that I guess one of the LDS prophets like one day didn't take the sacrament and people asked him why he didn't need that will because my mind wandered for a minute away from Christ. And so, like I would take the sacrament sometimes and then I'd feel guilty, like three minutes later because my mind just goes all over the place. That's just how I am and I'd be like oh my goodness I wasn't taking like this time seriously enough like have already committed sin again. So just be like instantaneous with me like I've already done something wrong and maybe I shouldn't have even taken that I'm glad not to think that way anymore. That's pretty intense for for as much is and it's interesting because I mean I can kind of see what they're striving for, and I can see that there is some hint of no desire to try to please God.

I think you know he wants us to complete a focus on Christ. But it's from like a legalistic perspective. You know it's from this.

I quite got to do it hundred percent of that to obey because I don't obey perfectly that I will be blessed but I think the Lord he condescended in state to us in saving us, and begin taking on flesh and becoming Savior. He knows were weak. He knows what we flesh is weak. So I think you and Eli. Even in the Lord's supper. You know you my might wander for a second I don't think is going to demonstrate at some really thankful for that to that. It's not like to be 100% focus 100% prepared 100% perfect. I wanted to talk a little bit about to about maybe it is kind of ties in with this question.

So maybe I can just lump them together so comparing chapters 10 and 11 of first Corinthians of the last two passages we looked at what the partaking of the sacrament or ordinance of the Lord's supper signify on behalf of the believer. What did it signify on behalf of God and this is a question I wanted to ask two questions ago but Alaska now in LDS theology.

They believe that we partake of the sacrament clinical worthily receive remission of sins.

Do you believe that this is one of the blessings that a believer in Christ receives in taking the Lord's supper so apologetic at first sure no to your question. And the reason I say no is because when someone is a believer in partaking of the Lord's supper. They have already been regenerated and justified right and so they stand worthy before God because they are covered in the blood of Christ there covered in his robes of righteousness.

So, past, present, future sins are nailed to the cross and so they are not receiving when they partake of the sacrament whether they do so weekly or quarterly as some churches do, they are not receiving remission of sins committed within the last week or within the last three months there they stand righteous before God. If they were to die and and and gobbler to view them.

He was to Christ that is the whole purpose of the gospel that the whole reason that the Christ went to the cross.

So I would I would say no that's not one of the blessings that that is communicated through the Lord's supper.

What I would say is that the blessing of knowing that that one is covered by the robes of righteousness of Christ is something that that comes through the Lord's supper in in that real presence in the communion. So that's how I would answer the okay lately follow-up limit on so in first John, maybe I should just quote it because I know you messed up. I don't want to meet John someday and have them getting angry at me.

So in first John chapter 1 okay so here Paul is from first on one he says. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light of Christ, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So when you're saying that I and I and I agree that Christ nailed our sins to the cross. That's all of our sins. So do you see the process of continued repentance and forgiveness of sins part of the Christian life.

Or do we see all of our sins are forgiven and so is going to try to go for here what I'm trying ask your doing so would use. Is there no room for possibly the Lord's supper confirming that forgiveness of sins again upon the believer, I would push back a little bit. I think I think I covered that in my final statement. Yes that's that's that's part of it.

Of course when I partake of the Lord's supper. I do it as it is a time of reflection and repentance, but not in the sense that not in the sense that I am unworthy right right this somehow that the sin that that have committed and in and the participation that I am having with the Holy Spirit in the process of sanctification makes it so that I will ultimately not be saved in the kingdom of heaven or or will be saved in the lower level of heaven. None of that plays in to my thinking at all because that's not that's not the gospel. So does is there is there room for repentance. Continual repentance with within the Christian life. Of course there is. That's part of said vacation is that as the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin in your life, you participate with the Holy Spirit in the process of ruining your life of that but again it's not it's not within the context of Olguin on one of the movies my salvation. Because of this, so great things are clarifying ask asset because I think you're one of those with is called sinless perfectionists, the ones I believe once you your your saved you no longer can send if you've heard of those guys who I didn't know they were real. I mean, I've heard the thought before you. I'm the only one yeah Jesse Morel he's he's also an open DST is a very interesting guy, but he's a very famous online apologist, and he's very into this sinless perfectionism. So yes, I wanted to make sure that we can cover that thought because I know Latter Day Saints would probably ask that you know they say well you don't need forgiveness does I mean you no longer sin, you know, does that mean that you can just and only wanted and you don't need to ask for forgiveness. You know, so we talk about that many times before, but I think in this context a skeptic go over it again right awesome so yeah I wasn't trying to insult you or your your beliefs or anything. He didn't take offense to follow.

I think of anything else to add on to that we don't believe in a kind of Roman Catholic view of states of grace for your reader and you know like if you commit a mortal sin you've lost your justification, your state of grace need to go through the sacraments of penance and absolution to your receive that grace again. It's not like you're going from death to life and wife to death constantly back and forth if you justified your justified for all time. So that's kind of what you're saying.

Rebel yeah and it know for anyone who really wants to try to understand my position as if you read through Romans seven Paul do some really interesting things there and in writing there about distinguishing between the sin within him and me and stuff you. If you read through Romans seven, pay attention to that. If it's really interesting where he's placing the head of the culpability for the best stand for the sin that he's he commits to knowing the things they see that he really doesn't want to do some Ghazni doesn't understand why that is understand himself right. Talk about that in Romans seven, so it's really interesting to to pay attention to what he is what he does there with where that when one is in Christ where that culpability lies in and you do working with the Holy Spirit to purge that sin out of your life and in the sin within you is this kind of responsible for the send mail where me is not right because me is in Christ and in states within crisis. It's a fascinating chapter Is a good recommendation. What about you Michael Germany reread the question yeah baby reread it real quick. So, in reviewing the passages of chapters 10, 11, a first credenza we been talking about so, three-part question what the partaking of this ordinance of the Lord's supper that signify on the behalf of the believer.

What it did it signify a map of God and do you think it's similar or the same blessing that LDS claim in their sacrament that there is the remission of sins and the need to causally take this every week to receive remission of sins is not applicable to the Lord's supper in the Christian church yeah so I guess just briefly touching on that first one to me. I think what it I think it all kind of ties into each other some skill he can answer the second question in Entiat in no I don't I don't think it all that it is the same thing that Latter Day Saints believe and I guess just kinda echo what Paul said because I did catch that part.

But he said exactly what I would've said that know you are if you are justified and you are pronounce clean and that righteousness of Christ is imputed to you that there is really no need mean this, there's no other justification that's going to occur because Christ is an infinite being of infinite righteousness. And so when he gives you when he credits his righteousness to you. It's not like there's a limit or a boundary that you come up on and then you've got a take a ladder to the next step think he told the woman in the well at the well. Sorry, not in the well in Romans in John chapter 4, he said the water that I shall give to you will be a fountain springing up to everlasting life. So it goes all the way there.

You know it's it's not just a step you know he he gives us all the way there. There is a sanctification process that takes place but it doesn't have to do with our justification so earlier we were we are reading about the Valley idolatry and I think we talked about this podcast before but it's like our hearts just want to create idols all the time and I think you we just want something physical to hold onto it just makes us feel like were more. I guess we got a tighter grip on eternal life, and I think you in my perspective baptism and the Lord supper are there to fill that need for us so that we have something physical that we can actually hold onto you and say okay like this is my this is my reminder that I am say that I've been forgiven and that I am in Christ. Now and I think that's that's really the purpose that serves the know it's it's not like what goes on in the Mormon church at all. If that answers your question. Yeah, definitely early like I said that it feels that neither we have to have something physical to connect to and I think that's really true.

I know that there's different views on certain topics, so I don't want to be too offputting, but I am my father form tradition reformed a very against icons or images of God because we believe it's second command violation. I'm not in iconoclast and I can come to your house and destroy all your pictures of Jesus Christ, you know, we feel that it's that it's very important to not have images of God or Christ because you want to honor God and we don't want to make images because of that image can change your thoughts about how you see God you know there's people that say I really like this particular picture of Jesus first and somebody will say I like this particular picture of Jesus and so they can have in their mind. That's what Jesus looks like a that's who Jesus is and so we were kind against that and I think going off what you said my God think God already gave us something physical and image to point us to Christ and it is the Lord supper and baptism. Like you said were physical beings we interact physically and sometimes it's really hard to imagine sometimes it's really hard to imagine a transcendent God is in heaven, but his being emanates throughout space and time and is unlimited in power and knowledge and he's completely holy and just and we have almost no comprehension of such a magnificent awesome being it's a wonderful thing with the same time. It's kind of scary sometimes when I think about it, you know, but I'm stripping out that that God is so different from us in the Christian mindset than the latter-day St. mindset do not mean and so having that Lord supper that baptism is is something that's familiar and it connects us and it reminds us in its tangible and the taste of the you know of the fruit of the great that's it's bitter and reminds us of Christ suffering and it was blood and you know it's just all connecting us to Christ. I think it's really important that we recognize that God promises to us. He says it's the blood of the new covenant when he instituted it in the Lord's supper is the blood of the new covenant and it is a covenantal recent relationship that we have another Latter Day Saints talk a lot about covenants but Christians talk but what about covenants to were those in the new covenant.

If you want to see the blessings of the new covenant read Hebrews chapter 8 he says that no one will coat the stage was brother know the Lord because basically everybody will in the new covenant knows the Lord those in the new covenant are those redeemed believers and were promised forgiveness of sins and were promised to have the wall written on our hearts. So those are some the blessings of the new covenant, and I think we partake of the sacrum of the Lord supper. That's God making that promise to us again reconfirming that promise to us that we have remission of sins in Christ through faith.

It's not so fast, always be through faith week. If we don't have faith. It doesn't do anything for us.

The spirit works through the supper, your faith, reconfirming the promises of God to us, and I'm not totally against Zwingli's idea of it being a confession and a profession of faith. I think it's up that's also part of it because Paul says in this passage that we just read C4 as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. So there's also professional in a confessional part of the Lord supper so we confess our faith in Christ.

We recognize the references body and blood. We place our trust in that God promises the blessings of the new covenant to his believers so there is a covenantal relationship. That way you know Larry since believe that their sacrament is covenantal so there is that similarity there but but and I think it is through the Lord's supper we did. We are sanctified. As Paul said it's not like we go from a state of my goodness.

If I die tomorrow there since I have been forgiven of and him and in all be dead meat. It's it's reconfirming our faith reconfirming.

It's a blessing it's building us up like spiritual stones in the household of God. So were were being built up roofing change slowly having the power of sin taken out of our bodies and taken out of our minds and spirits and slowly conforming to the will and the image of Christ. So there's so many blessings and promises therein and we partake of it in interface and remembering Christ the benefits of his body and blood are there given to the believer through the work of the spirit site so I do think there is a signification process going on and it does build up our faith and reconfirm our faith.

So there's a lot going on. It's not just a pure Memorial and that's why I really can't get behind it.

Us purely Memorial view of the Lord supper because there's just too much in these passages that we went over that. I think that we can't just say that it's just remembering and that's it.does extra work through the Lord's supper so sorry it did not spiel but that's why love talk about this because Lord supper is just such a deep topic and it's really something that we don't really study in this kind of depth is Latter Day Saints. Yet it's it's been great talking about this to because I think when we started this discussion.

My viewpoint was that it was just a pure Memorial but then going through the Scriptures with the guys and in researching it and everything and kinda you have my views change on it. Just in these couple weeks we've been recording these episodes so it's been fantastic.

But it's interesting to hear you say that Michael is when you mentioned that earlier on your at the outset of this discussion, I wondered you know do you do you think that you were your view this purely Memorial is is a holdover from the way Latter Day Saints teaching handles the Lord supper. Unfortunately, yes, I think that my my natural inclination is to just kinda keep a lot of my old LDS beliefs until I find out otherwise just because I think I just want to just like that the idea of kinda being stable and feeling like I have a grasp of things are just, at least have a position until I find something better. Instead of just being like I don't know anything at all. So yeah, I've a lot of dispositions right now that I think are still holdovers that I'm just placeholders. If that makes sense until I kind of get that sorted out and I'm still sorting out a lot of them. I wasn't really. I wasn't going after you and all I did. I just was curious if you if you made the connection.

Yeah, it's interesting you know that I remember reading challenges of the great apostasy and no this is, like the truth. The two extremes are presented their rights.

It's either Roman Catholic transubstantiation or its purely symbolic and in remembrance write a memorial is a false dichotomy. Yeah, I don't member there be any discussion of there being actual real spiritual presence or anything like that presented to me as as an option, but in a uniform way to think about and and really like that goes for all of the ordinances and Latter Day Saints. You end up coming, coming away with the field is just very transactional.

You know anyone, just rambling the Matthew, I heard you say you're not iconoclast, but I'm curious if I had a picture of you and McGregor as Obi-Wan Kenobi hanging on my wall with the phrase Jesus loves me this I know because he sliced Darth Maul asunder to and for a would you would you come to my house to destroy that by asking to scan and send me a copy that will I don't have Vista don't house and destroy it or steal it. He has that he just doesn't want you to know that there was that poor lady I think there was an LDS program rate for one of their church meetings where they had the Obi-Wan picture on the front. I was so awesome know anything I see on the Internet.

I don't think it's fake. I hope nobody really, but this is not a good Jesus you're looking for restroom need to go home and rethink your so what should those struggling are questioning Latter Day Saints know about the blessings promised in baptism and the Lord supper or communion as given in the Bible compared to what they are taught in LDS church so we talked a little bit about that already, so maybe just fill in the blanks. Michael Jekyll first. Yet the only other thing is you say about this topic is just, you know there's there's no covenant to a covenant here that pertains to our eternal life like there is an Mormonism cousin in Mormonism when were baptized. We we promise to to bear one another's burdens to mourn with those that morning to keep the commandments. And if we do that, then God will raise us in the first resurrection, and we will have eternal life. But but in the Bible it it's very different. You know it says that you will sacrament is there to for us to remember the blood and body of Christ and then in Romans six Ford talks about us.

You will be when we are baptized.

We may walk in newness of life, but it's pretty simple and it is just really talking about the freedom that we have and in the assurance that we have.

I think that's what those two things are really giving Austin and sadly that is just not what what we acquire in the Mormon church. In fact, it's quite often the opposite. Instead of assurance. I would feel guilt and and I would doubt my salvation.

So that's definitely a gift that that we have in Christianity.

So you would say that to remember that it's a unilateral covenant that God promises all these blessings. It's not in not contingent upon our obedience, or upon our complete faithfulness that it's God working in our lives and what you're pointing out the beginning.

Yet that's what I was trying to say. I just wanted to clarify my trailers, yet he got it is in the past when us document that it represent to come in and then he said there is no covenant here and Mike wait a minute will meet in the way that a little Latter Day Saints uses sure that you know with commit the specific LDS covenant is contingent on what you do you earn it you know we don't have that show specified night you did later on is just at the beginning you said there is a two way covenant, yet not I wasn't I wasn't ready to throw you on the you know on the stack of the boy didn't like the fire, you ball I heard them very clearly say the beginning. There is no to a covenant here you in the sense that yeah that it requires obedience right right so what I say here so Jesus in the sermon on the mount right.

Matthew 713, 14 says enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. So this note is the way is hard and the gate is narrow right and and and Latter Day Saints. My same manna sounds a lot like our our view right. In fact, the listener recently said to me that I used to think also that Protestants believe that salvation was a free pass to sin, but hearing about sanctification as if it is very similar to our doctrine of discipleship is made you all a lot more relatable. So what are the differences that work where do the differences lie. Maybe an analogy right so second Nephi 31 uses Matthew seven right and it makes baptism, the gate right and pull it up real quick so I don't misquoted his seed of repentance and baptism of the gate to the straight and narrow path eternal life comes to those who commute to keep the commandments after baptism. I know that's the chapter summary.

I know that technically LDS would say that's not inspired but that's that's what's in and that's that's kind of the what the LDS church is saying to its members. And here's the summary of this chapter. This is what you should get from it right and so what the impression that you come away with in some limited on the run with that analogy impression that you come away with is that repentance and baptism is the gate to a path that's going to lead you on a journey that could potentially be perilous. You may not be able to be perfect in keeping the commandments from here on out. You can repent.

But you better remember to repent, because if you don't go stems maybe hold against held against you number the transactional thing I was talking about last time I let a few minutes ago still be the opposite view. Christian view would be, yeah, you know being regenerated and justified through faith, and then being baptized and partaking of the Lord supper.

Those those are the gate right at your entering into the straight way that if you find right but what's the difference right differences you are walking through gate to the house that has your name on it because your name is written in the book of life. You're not going on a long journey that that could be perilous is to be hard to be hard for that. I'll read you know what what John MacArthur says about those those verses in Matthew chapter 7 he says many people think that both American and the white gate provide the entrance to God's kingdom. These do represent two ways that people live, but only the narrow gate constricted and precise salvation by faith through Christ alone is God's way that leads to life eternal. The white gate includes all religions of works and self-righteousness, with no single way but it leads to hell not heaven and in comments on the part work that were Jesus says that difficult is the way he says Christ continually emphasize the difficulty of following him. Salvation is by grace alone is not easy calls for knowledge of the truth. Repentance submission to Christ as Lord, and a willingness to obey his will and word.

I think that Latter Day Saints would say maybe I agree with with what John MacArthur says they're right it's been a require a willingness to obey his will and his word that the differences though that you know like like the chapter summary for second Nephi $0.31 right eternal life only comes to those who keep the commandments after baptism. And if you don't keep them perfectly, you can end up in the terrestrial kingdom and if you really mess up, you can end up in the celestial kingdom.

And if you really, really messed up and end up in outer darkness.

And so it's you not walking through gate to a home with your name on it and you know you not walking through the gate to the one of the many mansions that the Christ went ahead of you to prepare your walking through a gate to a perilous journey that might not end in eternal life, and I'm I'm not saying anything here that is not within Latter Day Saints doctrine and is the reason why people who a lot of people who are in the LDS church lacked the assurance that Michael was talking about but that assurance is there within biblical Christian teaching of the gospel.

So for those who are struggling for questioning Latter Day Saints.

What they would like to know about the blessings of baptism, Lord supper everything we talked about over the last nine hours of this topic.

It's really important, but what I would love for them to hear is there is assurance in Christ.

Amen Anibal away and I responded that night. It's great.

Thank you so much yeah I think that's really the key is that the sacraments are what God promises to us what he's already given us also is just confirming what is Artie given us wares with Latter Day Saints baptized like you said is just the beginning and then the rest is making sure that your faithful enough and you're working hard enough in your doing the following. The program during the 12 steps all at wares. We see it as we see we see God promising the same promises in the sacraments as he does the word I think I should I share that quote from Banning earlier is that there's nothing that's given the sacraments, you can't receive through receiving Christ your faith after hearing the word is just reconfirming the same things to us and to know that God is in charge of my salvation, not me that's a real that's a that's a incredible blessing because is it a John MacArthur void Baucom. That said, you know, if I could lose my salvation. I would think my thing is to MacArthur. That's true because were so weak if it were up to us to keep her salvation is impossible. It's the Lord that keeps us up with the Lord that preserves us it's the Lord that watches over us that strengthens us. And so that's really the biggest difference between the LDS sacraments are sorry the LDS ordinances and Christian sacraments is that LDS ordinances are just more covenants more obligations more stuff for you to do versus what God has promised us with what what we are doing and confessing and professing Christ and knowing that we are already saved so he did much more powerfully. Paul and the Michael. I really think of your words. Radio ad for you going last one last customer for those posts. Latter Day Saints were struggling to understand the biblical doctrines of the sacraments are ordinances or are hesitant to take the plunge, so to speak into a Christian baptism or partake in Christian communion. What advice would you give them so would like to go first. So when I came out of the LDS faith. I jumped right into a Christian church think I talked about in my my interview episodes that took us. It took us several weeks of Sundays to come to church hopped through churches in the area and figure out where we wanted to go and eventually land where we landed. I didn't jump right into doing baptized in the reason why is because I still thought very much like a Latter Day Saints right thought, well, even if I don't believe in the legitimacy of the LDS priest of the more I was baptized in the LDS faith with the exact wording of the great commission and it you know it is when I think about or at the time when I thought about my my baptism that a Jake I thought you know this is the time. That's the time when I believe I began to follow Jesus wet as I continued to attend the Christian church and attend Bible study with good solid Christian men and heard the gospel preached, I realized that what I had believed before was very different than what I was hearing preached now and especially as it relates to the doctrines of grace and as it relates to the nature of God and so it took me we would be left the LDS church and in the middle of May 2010 and I was baptized in August 2011 so little over year to get to the point where I felt like I was. I had reached the point where is like wow I really believe a different gospel now and I also believe very differently about the nature of God and so at that point I thought that it was appropriate to take the plunge, so to speak and and and be baptized into Christianity and my guys I'm not going to steal your thunder at all but understand talk briefly about you know when you got to that point you reached out to me and you asked me you know. Do you think I should be baptized again and one of the things as I recall, you were really kinda questioning at that time was you know well maybe maybe was more my my question is I did as I sought to answer your question whether you should you baptized again because I'm I was kind amusing at the time. Also about well you know the notice is the same formula right of the great commission. So does he really need to be baptized again. But you know I can just kind of the same conclusion and giving you counsel them that I reached giving myself counsel set you'd come to believe some very very different things than what you've been taught as a Latter Day Saints and so did you.

It's appropriate to to be baptized. But again, it's, it's, you know these things come after regeneration. He thinks come after that.

That change of heart that God works within you, which takes you from a place of frustration and rebellion to a place of love and notes of the latter-day St. who says you know that come to see that that we don't believe in using believers. We don't believe in Austin all you want, when I say yeah we talked. We don't all. And when you when you realize that there is that difference you know that that they just totally appropriate to study through the passages like we've done in these podcast episodes and then ask yourself, you know, have I reached the point where I I realize God has been doing and work. The work in my life to bring me and draw me to his son who went to the cross and took upon himself my sins and mail them to the cross past present future such that I'm now standing in a place of faith and in a covenant relationship with God that that will bring me ultimately into his kingdom.

And if you're that place is a posts latter-day St. then it definitely is time to get baptized and hopefully already before. Now you and I hope the Christian church where your being fed and enlivened by the word of God. And so if you're at that point, this time a man other thousands those amazing so I can say Michael to do anything. I do not just a little bit actually didn't even remember having that specific conversation with you Paul, having conversations with me maybe have spent all of it could be you know when you're really only have maybe neither of you are real romantic and beautiful mind. It's like he goes back to listen to the podcast and it's really just is just it's just been talking for nine hours about this. I guess I wanted to read the Scripture out of Luke five starting in verse 36 is Jesus talking says he told them a parable no one tears a piece from a new garment and puts it on an old garment. If he does he will tear the new and the piece from the new will not match the old and no one puts new wine into old wineskins.

If he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed.

But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. I think I think it's really easy to kind of look at your past and look at what the Mormon church taught about the ordinances and then can feel triggered when it's brought up in an Christianity. In fact, I was you know my church they pass the past communion in the use the white you know the white cloth over and it's actually very similar in the way it appears to Mormonism and the first time I saw that it triggered me just because it brought back those memories and I think what we really need to do is kind of wash the board clean. You know, start fresh. You know, don't try to put new wine into old wineskins.

You know, don't try to make Christianity fit into your Mormon background because it is a totally different thing and in a week. We have to expect that the Mormon church in a being a pseudo-Christian organization is going to have some things that really do resemble real Christian sacraments, and so we just need to clear that out and look at it with a new mindset.

I really appreciate what Michael had to say and sharing the passage from from Luke five, but putting new wine in old wineskins is a very apt metaphor for the process right you anything about the great application. Think of something spiritual and enlightening to add to it, but you both just knocked it out of the park, so I'll just leave it with that and say amen we thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast page on Facebook.

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