What About Priesthood and Church Structure? Pt. 2 (Articles of Faith Series)

And as a restored church and Jesus cries Latter Day Saints where we go. Your mercy, because of this process. I will you. Matthew was a little bit about worthiness is about a state meeting you.

How did you remain worthy to hold the priesthood. Well I think it's the passage we've talked about before. I think it's doctrine and covenants 121 rituximab try to use our priesthood and unrighteousness and name into the priest or that man is at 120 1C somewhere actually look that up. But I got several tabs open, but yes, I was always on the forefront of my mind when I was ordained to the priesthood and connection wanted to share my screen if that's all right passage on the doctrine and covenants that I wanted to share. Hopefully this'll work is as the host has disabled participant screen sharing okay okay okay cool me for some reason you with your conducting okay Stratus so think I can just share accordance culture that a Sita yes yes okay so so this isn't something they can buy is a module I added it in is like a tool, but I just think I'm collating some books think so don't ignore it. D&C 84 because like when I was when I was preparing to receive the priesthood. You know my bishop read this with me.

It's the oath and covenant of the priesthood and it's really important for Latter Day Saints and so when I talk when I think about worthiness. This is what comes to my mind so scroll up and it can use a genealogy of the priesthood was passed down. You know, says sons of Moses, according to holy, presurgery cedars have his father-in-law, Jethro, etc. centers passed down which priesthood continued to the church of God in all generations and is without beginning of days or have years that it talks by confirming a priesthood on errands let's the lower priesthood so starting, verse 19 and this greater priesthood and minister of the gospel and hold the key of the mysteries of the kingdom. Even a key of the knowledge of God.

Therefore, in the ordinances thereof. The power of godliness is manifest in without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priest or the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh. Without this, no man can see the face of God, even the father live so continuing on word it says talks. But the offices okay and then start in verse 33. I think this is technically where the oath and covenant starts. Bruce was faithful unto the obtaining of these two priest is a which have spoken and the magnifying their calling are sanctified by the Spirit onto the renewing of their bodies to become the sons of Moses and Aaron and the seed of Abraham and the church and kingdom and the elect of God. Also, all they receive. This priesthood received me, saith the Lord, for you to receive my service receipt with me and he receive either receive me or see with my father.

He never see with my father receive my father's kingdom there for all of my father has to begin unto him. This is according to the oath, which belongs to the priesthood is important so this is these are, like the blessings of receiving a priesthood. But what really was on my mind is that really impressed upon me that I need to be worthy of it was the following ones because it just so impressed my mind and scared me that I was like I got a I can be worthy of this so continuing on word it says. Therefore, all those who receive this priesthood receive this oath and covenant my father which he cannot break neither can it be moved but whoso break. If this covenant after he has received it and altogether turn if there from shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come and want to all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon your present this day by mine own voice out of the heavens and even I have given the heavenly host and my angels charge concerning you and this is letter for you shall live by every word that proceeded forth from the mouth of God and for the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light whatsoever is light disparity in the spirit of Jesus Christ. So I brought that up because I think that's important to bring up because for me at Lisa's.

A.

St. I saw blessings there and I saw very strict and very strong cautions that basically if you receive this higher priesthood. If you don't honor it. If you don't live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God. In verse 44, and you turn away and altogether turn is there from. So I kind of proceed. That is like just turning away from the church but still I felt like even if you weren't living according to everywhere the proceeds from the mouth of God than you want. Living truly worthy of of the priesthood and so and bring up again. That passage in D&C you are forgetting is on 21 where he talks about yachts as a man to the priest that man is a real responsibility to be worthy of that that that gift going back to the weapon analogy, you know like you.

You gotta be conscious of your weapon into maturity or using it safely.

They are not abusing it because he can harm herself or others, and so is really scary. Not like I last thought is like if I am if I don't treat this correctly. If I don't use this correctly.

I can be condemned for it and I'll like it says you will have any forgiveness of sins in this world or in the world to come. So so in terms of like pragmatically what I thought it was to be worthy note just try to keep your mouth clean you know not say anything wrong or blasphemous, not disrespect others or gossip you know is they follow all the moral teachings of the LDS church teaches, which aren't all bad, of course, you know, like one of those things I would agree with but it also dipped into legalism. You know like I felt really guilty me know if I had to buy something on Sunday. Like an antibiotic like 12:05 AM the announcement was technically still Sunday like I can't believe I did that such an idiot and I'll really be myself up over that and things like that. I remember as being obsessed, costly, thinking I care priesthood holder, you gotta be worthy and only you can't be can joke about this, things is always be myself up in my perfectionism was always knocking me down so and and also you know, keep yourself in all pure and chaste and stuff like that trying trying to say things or do things that would scare the spirit away or that would make you lose your authority. Things like that.

I never really felt worthy Hannah. I never really felt truly worthy of the priesthood. I felt like maybe someday maybe someday I'll feel like I'm working but I never really did it. I had little moments I felt like maybe I was doing okay but there were there.

Very they were fleeting moments.

So yeah, long responsible splits good of me not, I agree with you but a lot of the legalism stuff to those that environment you was trying to one up everybody else leave the most righteous person. So then you end up adding less rules guilty if I went swimming on Sunday because this is Sunday and take this more seriously, I can't spend a lot of time in the pool. There were a lot of people that young 30 business transactions or something and people exam. I can accept money because Sunday and I just feel really all my gosh, that person might really takes his priesthood seriously have a lot of the same feelings that you did where you think okay this displaces the authority of God. So my standard is basically right up there with God you on this. I can't make any mistakes at all. I have to basically banish all all wrong thoughts from my mind after magnify my church callings. Last June she prayed reading the Scriptures after passing to go to the temple I need to be guilty because I wasn't doing my genealogy you wanted.

"Willing to simply go you of the work for the dead. The genealogies will support work we could be doing and I'm just like, well good because you know my mom and my grandma they got that cornered you know they got our genealogy all the way back to anyways I'll worry about this when I 60 is kind of what I would think, but I feel really guilty wanted Steve and I went on not doing all that I be doing and know maybe I'm not taking this priest something mysteriously should be what you think. Paul triggered here priest in Matthew pretty often. Definitely like and may sometime in May when you're celebrating the disclosure restoration of the Locust agrees that you read it as another form of government, like the whole all man we do it is like the whole priesthood together like inclusive opening exercises in the chapel would read the whole thing together, but I tried to follow the commandments right because there's a whole be there for cleaning the vessel, the Lord writes messaging is a latter-day St. so you waited pornography, alcohol, T coffee and you know try to avoid even caffeinated soda arriving back to talk about working two jobs. When Angela and I were first married, you know, referral for a few years there I work my day job and that I would live consent night and so I would be my day job started at 8 AM and we only have one car. The times are robust and in Cincinnati Northern Kentucky Cincinnati area.

There's two different bus systems, one for more than Kentucky. One for Cincinnati and so I had to make transfers to get to work in Cincinnati so I was up early like 530 in the morning, leaving out of the house at 6 o'clock get on the bus and then I would come home and take the car and drive pizza until 11 o'clock midnight. And you know in the evenings on pounding Mountain Dew to stay awake and there were times when I feel bad about that. A lot of times causing them stop technically desolate was… To have Mountain Dew, but there were times in the morning where you and I would go to the coffee station at work and grab coffee slip through the morning and not beat myself up over that Selectman will elect on Jen coffee knows priesthood holder and it was now just think about those things now and you like while I can't believe that was that was really a thing that's that's how I tried but like Matthew. I never really felt really did you meet know you didn't hold the priesthood was a factor in your life and all yeah I mean I had to be worthy to receive those blessings constant myself. There is always pressure both science Breanna biggest problems that a lot of Mormons have coming out of the church is that Christianity doesn't appear to have any authority compared to what they're leaving you cross that chasm cell mentioned a little bit about patients experiences there and I before I came out in the church is not priesthood really was an illusion and possible standard, righteous but the amazing thing about Christianity, you look at my husband and he is wretched in her. He is well malicious, totally pray and it is helping me realize that God love knows no guys holding me love how more secure priesthood, but was nice to his really freighting because you my second marriage and in my first marriage.

I held the priesthood and so I was expected to.

I think keep a certain appearance. You know, certain needed to appear to be a certain level righteous and it made me feel weaker if I wasn't like why latter-day Saints don't show who they really are or how they really are and it's great to. It's freeing to be like you know what my wife knows that I'm that I'm a sinner and I don't have to do the standard is perfection of her standard for me isn't perfection and that is really a lot healthier in a marriage, I think. And she's right. I have a wretched center so thank God were Jesus all right Matthew you like to know how you are able to bridge the gap to Christianity.

Even though it may not have any authority to bring up a couple passages we have later on in the discussion. First Peter 25. If an extent. I was mentioned in other podcasts to how is a real struggle for me because I really associated my worth and my identity with the priesthood serving in the temple doing endowments doing baptisms for the dead in the temple and so is difficult is a struggle for me to let that up into acknowledge that I'm not an elder. I'm not endowed. I don't have special sacerdotal priesthood. I don't have some special kind of authority that others don't.

And I like one and attending a church.

I felt like I was sidelined. You know like when I came over my mission going backwards like it was my mission. I was begging my bishop for months for calling because I just felt useless. You know a guy I mean are struggling with school and is hardly getting any sleep. I still felt like I wanted a calling of some kind. If you like I belonged like I could serve somehow and in so it was even worse when I left ill district, I started attending a Christian church because it was like you know I didn't participate in anything. I wasn't asked to pray either in our meetings, you know, because I wasn't a member technically I wasn't. You know I couldn't help talks were not a thing you know of the pastors preach sermons so I was basically I go in and hear the preaching and I go home and it was really weird but I just took time just to time in understanding that you can you can fulfill needs in the church that don't require being an elder or pastor or have some kind of authority just being in the congregation and using the gifts God gives you in whatever way possible. Whether it's making friends with people of the church or whether it's sharing and insight you had about us passage of Scripture in the Bible that week with someone or if you have musical talents you know using that whatever it is there's there's a way for you to God's given you those gifts he's put you in that church is needed is needed. You into that community for reason when I kind of understood that I thought okay yeah maybe I'm not on some kind of awesome magical priesthood pedestal like I thought I was in the LDS church. But I'm still needed. I'm still wanted know God still chose me. Also, wretched center for some reason his reasons for his plan and for his glory, and so I shouldst. I kind of many realize it's not about me it's not about my knee fulfilling my knees and on my ego.

Whatever you know God saves us to glorify him enough to point others to him to worship him. And that's the focus early to remember when I started kind of God change my heart and turning that direction. It made you know it didn't matter anymore. Didn't matter that I didn't have some kind of special power didn't matter that I wasn't an elder anymore.

So I think I just relate to God working in me change my mind on that you really like what you said about gifts that is a great answer member.

I patted my church to talk about God's given us these gifts that determine how were going to help out our church family. Cool before that all this freedom in Christ will do with X so used to the bishop just headed telling me what calling to do and I don't have to think about it and now almost all these choices and how my supposed to decide and relate talk about gifts and help you have to go, but that is really narrow that down and okay you know what they need me for what unintended units it's great because you have colleagues in the LDS church. Sometimes there were more based on necessity than inspiration.

You know oh I see it all the time because I would be in their meetings in the morning. It's like we got a new family. Great throw them in the nursery like we need somebody like u didn't even pray about it like it's just were doing this. Looks like all of your thoughts on that.

I remember so we had some family friends Jason and Emily, Jason and I served together in elders quorum presidency the last few years that we were in the LDS church and he started going through pretty significant faith crisis to the point where he has to be released from from elders corpsman and then got a really know was given a really hard time about it because that's a calling that comes from the state level and so you had to pass the state present to be released all the stuff that no member there state conference were conference with the stake presidency can remember giving a lesson and I kinda thought it was kinda clear from the lesson that they were referring to him as he is rum and really bothered me because I served with him for a couple years member friends.

I'm so when you wind up leaving around that time.

We were on our way out. But that was, final final straw to see someone we do love treated that way.

So I was over I was kind of already appointed than where I didn't feel that sense of know puffed up just about being a priesthood holder anymore I can. I recognize that there was this LDS doctrine of the priesthood. I didn't ascribe power to anymore, I just, like with us the doctrine and I enjoy serving in the church where I can serve. So when we left we started to talk about Star Trek church hopping. Try to find a church to attend. Started attending church. With time, but like a Christian mingle there for several months and Emily and Jason came and spent an afternoon with us and we went to see a movie together before the movie. Words can hang out at our house sitting around the table just talking this stuff and member Emily Astley church is going to switch their view on priesthood really know you know that I wasn't really thinking about that because like I said I'd reached a point where it wasn't really important to me anymore so I was really kinda just focus on Jesus and and learning know learning about Jesus through the sermons my company. I wasn't really thinking about Krista too much and so she's just you know it is a sort of like you know Luther's pursuit of all believers view was like yeah probably I don't really know you got me thinking/last pastors so so what about the view of ordination. The gifts were named why was service you know the answers to this question. Here, in the sense this I start asking questions and learning more about what my church teaches and believes about that in terms of overcoming overcoming it.

I think that all kinda happens before I left for heaven, lost the view that there was actually this exclusive priest restored so that it wasn't something that from you leaving. I was like to figure that out now. Where is where is the actual priest never felt that leaving so it's interesting that you kind of already had changing views about that before he left because even after hours transitioning out of kind of felt like I was leaving her out of the church. I still struggle with thoughts related to the priesthood enough is interesting that that you had already kind of left those ideas, but were still clinging to the church is for that interesting thought was of heritage are like certain doctrines are kept you enter, you know that you're struggling to let go of her was this of the doctrine that kept us in for the longest time was eternal marriage and it exists, contradictory to what I'm saying what I'm saying produces excessive priest of the workmen's right but we it was really kind of the 19th century romantic view of here and here in the LDS church people talk about like we knew each other in the preexistence and we were. We promise to be together and that's why were married now and that those kind of things that people lose these romantic views that people hold about marriages within the LDS church so that was kind of our thing in the efforts over a long time about that was it right it was okay.

So if we leave this been what was that meeting were not to be married in the afterlife. What will our relationship be lied.

We really love each other know so was that mean for a relationship so that I was, last domino to fall for us and I read mysteries of godliness heard about but for now, but it kinda goes to the temple ceremonies and all that signature books published it but that kinda took that away from me and then it was a matter of having conversations with Angela and just kinda getting aligned on that like we had to get to the point where we were willing to say okay if even if the true truth about the afterlife is that we won't be married in the way that the LDS church teaches, even if that's what is true, but we have Jesus than we have everything that matters and we reached that point we can stay anymore possible. Praise God that he and bring it up. Yeah, I think a lot of those things are just kinda designed to keep her eyes off of the Savior. You know the priesthood definitely does that ourselves and our worthiness. The same thing is true of eternal marriage to take her eyes off of Christ as our spouse and it makes it really is a saying that Christ is insufficient for us to do something else we need a cherry on top for it to be worth it, and praise.unit. Your eyes were open all your to see Christ that he was really the greatest prize.

The we can have your shot is everything else absolutely finished with the my how I kinda came out of the church is usually threefold. Three things that had happened three dominoes that help me transition from being Mormon to being a Christian. The first thing that happened was me beginning to doubt the leaders first light start to debate group. I wasn't even a letter to Saints debating crazy Christians is a Mormon and then pulling out these quotes from Joseph Smith. Oh, there are men on the moon as tall as Quakers or one of the one of the prophets, which one said that we would never reach the moon and I'm like okay these things and things said our demonstratably false and was ultimately held the policy, saying that children of gay parents can be baptized. I disagreed with that and I'm guessing okay love. The Bible says you shall offend one of these little ones is better than a millstone was hanging around her neck and they were thrown into the ocean like I don't think this is the same God. I don't think Jesus would have put out policy like this and against the second article of faith, and I felt like the spirit was telling me something different and so the first thing was I doubted that the leaders really have this authority. And so I realized that it was illusion unit was just like story that can keep us all tailored to the church but I really that you deteriorated on the second thing is I came to learn about imputed righteousness. As I understand it at least once. This episode shot as they were.

If Christ did everything that needed to be done to merit heaven and his righteousness is credited to me then that actually negates the need to have priesthood ordinances at all and if there's not enough reason ordinances. There's no need to have holders giving those ordinances in some back problem way and then finally came later. I didn't become a Christian, not even really thinking anymore about priesthood, but I what I learned about the priesthood of all believers really know much about before and it's okay there is priesthood authority that is given to everybody who believes in Christ whereby we become his priests essentially so knowing that okay because I never knew that evangelical Christians even claimed any sort of authority and is Cliff Luna my radar for years.

I had no idea about this so that full circle for me. That's how I was able to bridge that chasm same boat with you imputed righteousness, those, those, like when the gathered the nails in the coffin for me. Also, since I did it mean I can access I can gain access to God directly. Like I don't have to go through this organization always ordinances my leaders and all I can just go straight to Jesus like that that I just like you know hope and avail my mind so clearly like what if you if you're right, just by not what you've done, but by believing in him, who was perfectly right and it's like everything the bilious church offers me add know you know it's like someone don't try to sell you a car you find out it's missing an engine in the mufflers broken. You know you look under the hood like this car anymore.

What you meant about his car and pass the yeah well it's one of the stories always find the most amusing in the New Testament is, is when Jesus is fasting and Satan appears to open shows a molecule of the wall. He says will give you all this if you will find out and worship me like this is ridiculous. He's offering Jesus something that is rightfully his, you know, and I'm really feeling that is basically the same kind of deal that the LDS priesthood offers a student because Jesus is our mediator with the father and the priesthood is patient comes in there and says no, we are the mediator between you and the mediator like no I don't need a mediator between me and a mediator.

That's ridiculous. This is completely necessary. So yeah you're right I statement about Matthew meet, we can go directly to God and receive our salvation right there. We were talking earlier earlier about things and brought up the fact that you left the LDS church, and in May 2010 started attending another church consistently. The next month year or so later in August 2011 I was baptized into Christ and then in May 2012 when our anniversary rolled around.

We really started to think seriously come to the point of years earlier.

As I mentioned Cory realize never got Jesus and Ellen and and the Bible teaches that there is no marriage in heaven. And then so be it. And we have Jesus. That's all that matters about that in 2012 our anniversary realize again. It's time to time to cut ties now so I wrote a letter of resignation and received a letter back from a bishop that I've never met who was newly installed in the ward where we lived, and you know, warning me that the guy I got your letter asking me your you and your wife and your families names be removed from the records of the church. Please be aware that this cannot cancel all priesthood ordinances include including your baptism right I think back on that. I think you how ludicrous is that you know 2011 I was baptized in the Christ and then there's organization threatening that all of the stuff we did four units sold and retaken away from you. You know that with the organization want to come in, one other thing couldn't talk about the priesthood of all believers. You remember the other stressors kind of this view to that. It's not just about the hierarchy that makes their view priesthood superior. It's also the fact that anybody can hold it right is, this Democratic view. Every man can hold the priesthood right questions that anybody can sever mansard data and the other women you're not allowed but this kind of this Democratic view of priest of the look that every man can hold it everywhere. The man can hold it and and yet at the same time if he felt it when LDS to look at other denominations to talk about the priest of all believers lose their minds. Why are you talking about.

How can there be a priest of all will swear the same position you hold, except when you really start scratching and pulling at the threads on this letter of the LDS church. She realizes this really is a strong hierarchical model is really not Democratic is interesting and there is a book I think it was a great prince. As Prensa cameras name. He talks about the authority and I mean you can find a lot of books work, but he posits that Joseph Smith is working towards women having the priesthood you now with with the temple ordinances having women officiating in the temple and women are given the robes of the priesthood in their officiating in the temple which is something in the Old Testament that only priesthood that some people think that if you live a little longer he might have given women the priesthood but somebody plug your dead because of the things you stated about the temple in and some people argue that the restoration isn't finished yet more to come. Stay tuned for season 450 sign with us is only 10% of the way you okay guys deal you will keep going a little longer. You want call it for tonight.

I know the next couple of questions are all related to each other so yeah, I remember pretty short answers to the next several I'm good to go for little while.

If you guys are.

If you want to comment. Try to go to the long just wanted I think maybe Seidman anything you let me know your comments mean for me. So what was that was comment about about Michael being totally depraved. One thing that I can't posted this Christian music discovery that they were casted in the Bible is just like there are female, reading Judges chapter 13 oh my gosh, she's a freaking beast.

She was yeah yeah about it up to my brother Elliott's brother Mike, how do you explain this product as well take is that you know there's people who have the gift of prophecy, but they're not actually profit; why we have the gifting brought in the other problem is Mormonism business hierarchy to as far as who you can receive revelation and so you know you have to be the prophet to receive revelation for the whole nation, and she she can then according to this technology that's impossible is a big problem going to the questions, but if you want to go. You can have anything else I'll probably go thank you guys for me is whisking over and take your okay yeah leave the chair listening to Jesus you are all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Teaching the name of our podcast brightness six, John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own.

It comes to us from without purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son to have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around. Okay you this. First, Paul, how is the leadership in your church differ from that of Mormonism. So several ways.

There's, like structure and numbers just how they operate. Right. So structure structurally wearing Christian church that operates on a congregational model so were led by a board of elders at the local level that are selected by the congregation once a year.

There is a congregational meeting at which there are openings on the eldership board. Men's names are put forward as nominees and votes are taken and new elders are selected to be on the board early pastor is also an elder on the board so the board of elders works together with the lead pastor to guide the church and be shepherds to the church and like I says, as an independent Christian church. We don't have hierarchy beyond the local church so the local church is autonomous and turns in terms of governing itself. We are part of a lot of broader movement that includes many, many other churches, but the other churches, and there is no personal hierarchal hierarchical structure that has authority over local churches.

Even though were were affiliated and so you… That's like a big the autonomy of local churches is a big part of our movement. In particular there when within the movement there started to be kind of the development of missionary societies. People saw that as is the potential for the development of a hierarchy as they were kind of parachurch ministries and so Bible societies and missionary societies, so there were there were splits in the movement hope over that you know churches that that that would be part of missionary society versus those that were not because it was seen as a threat to the autonomy of the local church, but yet that's how we read we operate from.

From a policy standpoint in terms of how the leadership themselves. The individuals operate constantly different than in Mormonism, you know, there's no we don't reach out and make callings to be my reach out and say hey you know you do this, but it's not that I can extend a formal calling to my just rich on-site hater projected it. No teaching or pastoral skills you want to be involved in the hospital ministry will be involved in teaching the kind of thing just from from interacting with you, but yes, so calling is different in that regard I think of our discussion a few the other things where they don't presume to be trained counselors. So if there is a situation in a marriage or person's life that is going to require other people's expertise. They will definitely refer you, which I think is refreshing. So that's what is your church and pay someone to Paul's.

So were a member of the confessional reform Baptist Church.

So yeah we also have a congregational model understood the understanding that to mean that gets led by elders in there also deacons that serve as officers in the church and were also there. Also, chosen from among the members of the congregation. We don't have like to have like an elders board or anything. We just have two pastors that are elders and a so they pertain on their focus on the spiritual things in Scripture divulges and then deacons are there to assist them in their efforts in maintaining the building keeping everything clean things like that so that the elders can focus more on preaching and and shepherding the flock and so and that's that's the leadership in terms of what actually leads a church there. People who teach in our people who teach Sunday school, things like that but those aren't priesthood callings. And I think I mean I mean, obviously, I wouldn't say it's I mean, I wouldn't attend a church.

I didn't think is biblical but I think when we seen in Scripture we see qualifications given by Paul in Titus chapter 1 in first Timothy 34 elders and deacons or no elders, also referred to as overseer and so throughout Scripture we also see in the New Testament we see overseers which are bishops in the Bible in the King James Bible overseers and elders and pastors are kind of used interchangeably so we don't have you know like there's there's like a three-tiered organization like a lot of Anglicans having other have like deacons, priests, bishops over them so we just we see elders as being the ones that lead the church at a local level and then deacons that also help them in their in their tasks and then the congregation but we do believe that the elders do have actual authority.

It's not as if another. Some congregational churches that have this quality of like elders.

Kind of like preaching in and doing things but then everything every decision comes down to votes like Democratic but that somehow works Aquino for us. We we see Scripture is elders actually having authority to leave the church so you know we we do submit to their authority when they make decisions. They'll ask us further further input and you know, a lot of times it will take that into you know very serious consideration when making decisions. But at the ending of the day for a lot of decisions.

It's really up to the elders to decide just got a long answer but that makes sense of its its limits. Similar thing to Paul's but slightly different. I think mine is is pretty similar to both of you guys to know exactly how works hundred percent.got a board of elders and got the deacons that maintain the building and do all that stuff and yeah they do, they do vote in those elders and leave the boat among themselves to the beat. I was really shocked to find out because we went to the new member meeting to become official members of the church only a month ago or so just begin formal members. We will not ask any questions they wanted some harassment about how the church functions and all the leadership roles in the pastor said that even the lead Elder, and that just blew my mind.

Unlike like there's no hierarchy there is no chain of command. It's your not the greatest Elder in here. The pastor like how is that makes sense.

You know, it just didn't didn't compete, but it was really cool. You definitely made the leadership feel more down to earth more relatable to me. Things I really missed out on in the earliest churches Bishop might feel relatable but if you were ever have a possible or the prophet visit your ward is a totally different situation. They did not feel relatable if he is never been in a situation like that, but I remember they were blocking you you all had to be seated before the break, the person and the end all be standing up when he walked in standing up as he walked out. There was never really the chance to talk to them. You know, just a figurehead to somebody for us to see whether anything here, not to have any relationship with, and so things I found really refreshing about my church now is no pastor, Bishop is fleecing student always want to tell you all. I'm doing the Lord might wait.

This is more like I need to stop using this this language is not a Bishop used the pastor, but he he remembers things that we tell him that goes out of his way to make us feel welcome and talk to us on Sunday when he sees a just really feeling okay. The sky really cares and is currently in my next question and answer first is you. Was it difficult to trust the leadership in your church and I think for me, at least, the biggest struggles coming out of Mormonism. I was credited to find a good church to go to and I would go to churches and and I jumped around a lot at first because I would agree with the passage preaching style that you'd be very seeker sensitive or go to one where they never really quote the Bible, it will just be no stories of life. I guess, or if they did quote the Bible. It would just be the message I just didn't feel like it was quite right.

There is a mega church we were going to for a while and abide okay. I'll think the gospel is this popular where there should be this many people here and so I didn't really trust leadership to the church than about right now and I deftly get the feeling that they genuinely care about estimates really easy to trust and I find it easier to trust him to because the you know my salvation doesn't hinge on whether I trust them or not. Also, they are there. Truly, voluntarily, and I know that Latter Day Saints will stay there. Leaders are there voluntarily but that's kind of truly kinder not true because they were called to be that and I don't really believe that you have the choice to say no. In those callings in the Mormon church is looking into, but that's my take on that you because Matthew in terms of if I trust leadership my church trip yellow orbit was difficult to get there. Yeah, I'd select a minute and really church, much like kind of minds my journeys over weird just because I come from a theology dork so you know I really wanted. I treated leaving the LDS church like like a divorce. You know I don't want to jump into a new church to quickly so I was studied for about a year when I what does Scripture say in what I believed in you know I believe Scripture teaches is so I found so I found this this is the only reformat districts in the area really started attending and then I started meeting with pastors there and they're just very welcoming and very very personable.

They're very lately seem very trustworthy to me and I could tell that they were being genuine.

You know when they would when they invited me in and there said they were glad to have me there so I like I never really had trust issues with them specifically but I mean in terms of joining a church gathers deftly this kind of fear of all my gosh, what if I get stuck in another culture, something you know so about a year.

I was like really cautious and like really yell careful and like wanting to make sure I knew what I believed what I know what Scripture taught and I was worried about getting stuck in a fluffy church that was like of wax theology and I like was like Bethel Bethel or Hill song. I see some of those churches in the glory clouds and the smoke machines and stuff and you're like oh my goodness of you know that's that's crazy to me but but yes whenever I don't really have trouble with my particular leadership know we can hit it off specially when my pastor is the pastor that baptized me Esther Sarver is a thief is a super theology nerd select as part of the catechizing process.

I guess you know like the process of becoming a member. We would go over the confession of our church yellow 1689 London Baptist confession of faith and it probably took like three or four times longer than it should have because we go off in tangents he know he be Nina we talking about like a man in a like ancient Greek philosophers. He he does research to Ian on EB talk about Martin Luther and books we've read and things like that and is again it was you back to the confession you know you can get off topic so we really hit it off.

I like I like talking a lot is good guy, how was it for you. Your Mormonism is a difficult to to embrace leadership in Christianity is not initially know the leadership of our church was really warm and welcoming, from the start. Like not just likely pastor was that way. The associate pastors were warm and welcoming. I never had any difficulty approaching them and asking questions. The elders have likewise over the years been approachable and wise counselors to me. When needed, and Bible studies that have been led by some of the elders in their house is really nice to have that. So, like you, Michael. There's been times. One of kind of questions. Some things you know, the kind that concern me a little bit when the when the lead pastor started publishing books. I'm not sure exactly why I just I worried that it was a step towards kind of a cult of personality type of thing, but not try to remember that you, as long as there's not another evidence is that going on.

It's okay for them to write a book alone that there's been times of questions and decisions that were made by Trevor try to remember to Matthew sighed about Congregational polity. You know I'm I'm not on the elders board so not privy to decisions and discussions that are made about you know when it's time to move on from a from a particular staff member of the church.

So try to remember that I try to keep your Hebrews 1317 in mind when I think about those kind of things, which is obey your leaders and submit to them for their keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give it give an account. Let them do this with joy and I was groaning for that would be of no advantage to you. So I try to remember that the they do have is Matthew was saying and authority to lead the church and to guide the church's shepherds and from what I know of those men. They take it seriously. So I think times when I've been tempted to be very ultra critical decisions because I like to certain staff member and now he's on to another church.

You know, try to be understanding that I'm not pervades all of the reasons why those things happen so I think this is not matured as a Christian and I'm not fully mature in any sense. But as I have matured over the years. It is that I keep in mind that that I'm not I'm not an elder know that they are there meetings that go on and discussions that take place.

I'm not privy to, so but in terms of trusting the leadership so the some of the difficulties I started to have a little bit but also try to keep in mind that I come from a background family background that at times, grumbled about LDS leadership at the local level and so I try to keep in mind that that you have come by some some tendency to view local leaders may be in the and not the most positive light that have come by the tenancy honestly and I need to check it musters and musters real evidence to the contrary stated is really refreshing really is you.

You look at the LDS leadership and they got saying you know it is wrong to ever you know criticize the leader of the church, even if the criticism is true and just the ultimate authority you know mean there such a thing is like, you know, so let Scripture about knowing you only the prophet would be, but that's what Mormonism basically is the error, not accountable to anybody you look at leadership in Christianity and they are accountable. If nothing else, to the Bible and were encouraged to look in the Bible and look at what their preaching and if it's wrong than we know that's not somewhere that we should be. But if they are preaching biblically think that's pretty good sign to me at least, it's the local church that is the place to be and I guess there still admin policies and things like that. I may not agree with the way I can cut it came to terms with it yet. I left Mormonism looking for the perfect church in my first pastor said look, if you find the perfect church. Don't let me come to it because all ruin it. I really like that quote really think there is a perfect church to visit a lot of like either.

I really love the atmosphere, but the people are kind of standoffish really love the pastor and love certain aspects of the old