From the State of the Nation, to Interviews with a Former KKK Leader and with an Expert on Fossil Fuels

From a grand Dragon in the KKK that pastoring a multiracial church stage for the line of fire with your host activist all the international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown was the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of Ministry get into the wider fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH your Jim is Dr. Michael Brown French fleet. We so often divide the decisions and then as people of faith were on other sides of the political divide in division division division seems to be all there is around us factions differences societal breaches we often forget that the gospel is the ultimate message of reconciliation. The gospel of Jesus brings people together. It brings strange human beings back in relationship with God brings us back in relationship with one another breaks down cultural barriers breaks down racial barriers breaks down social barriers, class barriers, cast barriers, that's what the gospel does raises up the oppressed raises of the impoverished brings about dramatic change in a moment I'm going to speak to Dr. Richard Harris listen here this in the mid-to-late 1970s he ran the largest underground terrorist organization in the Midwest you're talking about someone who is a grand Dragon in the KK K 30 years later, more than 30 years later he shares with audiences with his congregation. The lessons he learned taken from racism and bigotry and prejudice to acceptance, love and tolerance, so we are going to speak with Richard Harris. In a moment, and whoever you are listening, there is hope for our nation still check out my latest article and asked her to Brown.org KSK DR Brown 70 did I tell you this is Michael Brown just in case they recognize the voice, you're just tuning in, and yes you can hear the smile in my voice because it's a smile on my face is the great joy of coming your way every day on radio and should mention to you that many people when they meet me somehow that never went to my website or saw a picture anywhere and just listen on radio and got to know me on radio and point of fact, I'll come up to me and say well we thought you're a lot younger I'm 62 either gray hair, full of energy, life and vitality of our young but so it is the same voice just in case you wonder because I didn't introduce myself. Today I was so focused on talk about the gospel and talk about our guest. But there is hope. Still, for our nation and as as I wrote in my latest article as bad as things are today. Think of where they are at right before slavery season right before the Civil War during the Civil War and after the civil war you know of a few, but the Civil War casualties in today's numbers. It would be more than 6 million Americans killed in the war and this is not Americans dying in foreign fields fighting an enemy's Americans killing fellow Americans can ratchet the trauma of that traumatic enough. What happened in Charlottesville over the weekend is traumatic enough for white supremacist ran his car into a crowd of protesters and kill young woman and injure others is traumatic enough. They wore were 6 million of us kill each other in the actual number six and 20,000 children Civil War just made it for would be appropriate in today's population numbers that represents almost half of all of our war dead in all wars combined outside of so if God could bring us together after the Civil War. Yes, it was bloodied and horrific. Pres. Lincoln said that the blood that was being shed paraphrase of his quote was payment for the sin of slavery God could bring us together and build us up as a nation. After that, why can't he do it again for cleansing and gives the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown to the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown II don't believe that the secular media is particularly interested in bringing about racial unity in our country.

I don't believe that puncture, some have a heart to do that, but by large, I don't see that I see them looking for ratings.

I see them looking for that which will advance a particular cause or viewpoint get on the left.

The bulk of the media or be it on the right. I don't see a strong push for that courtroom reconciliation in the nation. But the gospel brings reconciliation. The gospel supernaturally transforms lives you know my story saved in 1971 is a 16-year-old heroine shooting LSD using hippie rock drummer young Jewish kid who had no interest in God and no belief in Jesus, God could radically turn around someone like me. My friend, a soup Ottoman India when he came to faith was a naxalite of violent naxalite.

These are met Maoist Communist. He was an atheist, alcoholic, violent man. Jesus wonderfully saved so angry.

Growing up as an untouchable that he hated the world around him. I don't know anyone that's done more to help human beings on this planet firsthand that my friend Jesu part of this is what Jesus is about radically changing lives and the story about the here is one of the more dramatic I have heard and my guess.

Dr. Richard Harris as I introduce briefly on the other side of the break before he Is about to join us now is introduced and before he's gone from one radical extreme of destruction and hate to the radical extreme of God's love as much as anyone you're going to hear Richard, thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you, Dr. Brown, Peter. All right, just to make sure I have this right. You ran the largest underground terrorist organization in the Midwest during the mid-to-late 1970s. This is an accurate quote architect tell us about your upbringing. Tell us how your ideology got shaped and then let's find out about your journey sure I grew up upper-middle-class family impact, family, father, mother, two older brothers, but I was the one that the schoolyard bully always picked on in elementary school I was wanted for lunch money away from on the playground and I grew up very, very angry with the segregated school and then in sixth grade in the school desegregation happened in the 1960s and all of a sudden I started being African-American children being puffed into my formerly all-white school and I realized that they were being puffed in from the other side of town. They were coming on my turf, but this was where I have been going to school for the last five years and now they were brand-new and I I will I have this angry only child I I wanted to get back to somebody and I didn't know how or who are when this provided the opportunity because obviously they were in the minority in the school and so I started picking on them and I started bullying them so badly that five by by eighth grade might eighth grade yearbook. I still have it. Someone actually wrote in their to Richard Harris grand Dragon of the KKK keep those in word and line so I will know and how how how will this point a great while 1313 incredible all right so what happens from there.

My mother passed away when I was 14 and that caused my father to have to run to prove the food and so he was hardly around.

He was trying to keep both of the going and I rarely ever saw him, and my two older brothers what they were much older than me. One was already a doctor and Mary away from the house. The other one was in college so I was coming home I would lift upper-middle-class white latchkey kid who didn't have a lot of friends and have a lot of time on his hand and by the time I was 16 when I was 16 or the clan have been watching me. I did not know it but they have been watching me in my middle school years because there were a couple of teachers in my middle school who were active clan plan people. Obviously no one knew about it but with secret, but they were watching me and when I turned 16. The age that you could become a member of the regular adult plan. They started moving me into the organization and they would come to be and they would say things like, you know, if you join the no one would ever pick on you. No one would ever call you names.

No one would ever make fun of you don't believe you anymore will take care of you and you know will be your mother will be your father and will be your brothers and sisters will be a family and I found it really good to this lonely 16-year-old son asked you this KKK. I have no exposure to it. No connection to it. Growing up as a Jewish kid in New York City and Long Island part of the world different culture than coming to faith in God. The circles completely unattached to some of this southern Midwestern racist Christianity, who was the KKK what was what was their message. What they represent.

The clan believe in white. The clan believe believe that they are the true Christian. They are the ones who are really shining the light for the white race in the white race.

We are the chosen one, and everyone else that you're not from white European defense, then you are in your your being.

Some of the clan groups would go so far as to say the that the only whites were actually human. Others were simply animal and less than human and that so their message is that they want to take back this nation keep keep it segregated and possibly even make it all-white nation only with no minority or at least keep the minority segregated over into one section and in a community like that where you grew up Richard how how prevalent was the KKK. I obviously can't give exact figures but was it just something that behind the scenes people knew it was hiding here and there it was just yet.

Lots of us KKK Indiana is the largest client state north of the line was in the 1970 very clan, state, and I happened to grow up in Kokomo, Indiana, which was where the state headquarters was located so there were a lot of what there was a lot of clan members they were. They were everywhere but of course with the secret organization you did not know most of the people were actually in the clan because they were your business people. They were your store owners. They were doctors they were lawyers they were police officers. They were teachers and how many of them were openly and outwardly racist. Even though you didn't know openly that they were in the clan. Many of them would not fight. Day up here unusually racist for that time and and and and age, but at night they would be going to secret client meetings and they would be espousing their true beliefs. Many of them were were just be average white person, but you gotta remember that back in the 1960s life with fields of fire and he was just a very much different than it is today.

I grew up in a home where the N-word was just a regular regular word and you said it, and nothing no one thought anything about it wherein he would not say those things today so so there was there was a lot of racism but of foreign I never heard Mike, I never heard my parents talk about black people. But then again they never had any friends.

No one of a minority has ever entered our home to my knowledge and and bore with a be welcome and I certainly picked up on that and knew that even though they never sat me down and said okay we have a less important fund and just 30 seconds before the break, but your interaction with the kids in school immediate did you ever in that setting begin to interact with black kids and see their humanity honestly know the black youth in school and this will this was true even for high school as well, but usually Themselves and we usually kept to ourselves.

They have their place in the lunch room we have our place in the lunchroom and that there was little interaction as an possible right friends will be right back. I'm eager to hear more of the stories how God takes someone like that vessel of hatred, desolate bigotry, desolate prejudice. We didn't get to the worst of his activities. It turns them into a man with a message of love and reconciliation stay right here on file. If the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown from grand Dragon in the Ku Klux Klan to leading a multiracial congregation. That's the kind of thing that Jesus does speak to Dr. Richard Harris's Richard just a quick question, truly out of curiosity and don't need to take much time on this at all, but these names that grand Dragon in grand Wizard for an ostensibly Christian group where in the world is a stuff come from go clear back to the founding of the clan.

They started using names like that and then I believe they finally codified them around the turn of the of the century and Dave. They simply came came into being because they wanted to create an era of an aura of the kind of thing for their for their members in the file folder of the row.

The outfit that we wore were really just to to create two separate them from other people to make people feel like you're really a part of something and and how long were you in the clan I was in the clan for about four years, all right. And during that time that this may be difficult for you to say in retrospect because she didn't really know the Lord then did there seem to be any folks that genuinely believed in the gospel but were deeply deceived and confused, or was it people who were surely Christian in name only, and using their Christianity is a cloak for their hatred. You know II think I think there was 00 was happening even in the same individuals often time very deceived, very deceived but yet at the same time, really honestly there. There were those who were very religious and very sincere.

And then there were those of us like myself who I was Christian in name only because I was I was brought up in a creek and that and so forth. I was Christian. All right, so you in the clan. How you get from there to outright terrorism but say that again. How do I get from Barrett's instrument them yeah it if you ran the largest underground terrorist organization in the Midwest. There's obviously a step from being a member of the clan to that.

Although I understand you out like that. How did I take over leadership in the clan that was rather interesting because the clan had been grooming me from the moment that I became a member and I didn't even realize what they were grooming for, I just thought that I was getting the same treatment that everyone else was. But they had been watching me and they realize that I was a very good public speaker. I was young I was very intelligent and that they fit this guy could be groomed for poor leadership. That's what they always looking for the looking for someone who is a good public speaker who can communicate well and who basically can store up and rally the troops together and so when they fall that they they started grooming me and I would I was made the grand Dragon of Indiana two years after I joined, and I was the I was the second I was the second youngest grand Dragon in the nation and I was I became grand Dragon and ran Indiana when I was 18 years old 18 years so extraordinary an instrument when listening friends, this did not just go back to race issues.

This went back to family issues.

This went back to being bullied as a kid there so many things that they can happen then and it's easy to radicalize some of that's why so many people are radicalized until constant causes while in prison and there there vulnerable to want to fight against the system so Richard as the grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan in Indiana. What type of activities did you conduct what were you involved in. I was, I was closely involved with making appearances, public speaking and also writing a lot of the propaganda and producing a lot of the propaganda that they would use to hand out, planning, rally planning believe the marches that you feed even today in them like like we fall just over the weekend that with that with a lot of what I was involved again. One of the things the clan learned from the very turbulent 60s during the civil rights era. A lot of Klansmen ended up going to jail for carrying out violent activities. One of things they learned was that they needed to keep their leaders out of jail because their leaders didn't do much good when they were in jail.

So because they were grooming me for leadership. They purposely kept me away and ignorant of a lot of the violence that was going on around me being perpetuated by just some of the lower lower level I clan people, but I knew that a lot of it was going on.

Even though I didn't know the details. All I had to do was walk through state headquarters and simply say boy that Mr. Jones over on the Boulevard Street really makes me angry that all I needed to, I would. I didn't have to give an order. I didn't have to bring people in all I had to do was express that and I knew that something would be done to Mr. Jones. It may not be for a month or a year.

They kept very long live but some time. Something was going to be done and I wouldn't it would not be reported back to me or anything because that would just that would make me part of it and so they they were able to do that. I got very smart about keeping their leaders away from actually doing illegal activities themselves. And if you could summarize this is ugly and unpleasant as this is just in the minute half before the break, the type of propaganda you you put out the message you get out, summarize it, but what was this message that you were preaching and that you were so good at articulating it would always focused around white people are superior to black to Hispanics to to Jewish people always.

They were the inferior ones that we would literally sit around and make up studies of a Harvard study done in Jill 1964 showed that that African-American brains are 30% smaller than European brain you we we would we would we would make that up and then off to the printers.

It would be printed up, it would look very real and it would sound very real. We literally made it incredible safe news going back yes absolutely extraordinary.

All right, listen friends we we've heard how deep Dr. Harris was caught up in this hatred. In this bigotry and as a professing Christian on top of it. We come back with me here.

How Jesus got hold of them and how the Lord is using him to this day. Boy, this is a message we need to get out in this day and this a it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Looking back to the line of fire.

Jesus brings us into right relationship with God. The blood of the cross and into right relationship with one another through the blood of the cross speaking again with Dr. Richard Harris, former grand Dragon of the KKK in Indiana.

No man leading the way in racial reconciliation through the gospel right Richard. What happens next. How in the world does God get hold of to get it hate filled young person like you are right, so I would grand Dragon for I have been Dragon for a couple of years, I'm 20 years old now and I have four armed bodyguards who are there to protect me. I hear through the grapevine that one of my forearm bodyguards have put it out on me and is going to take me out and so I couldn't prove it but I believe just getting my mind I thought I need different security. I need different protection. I need more protection. So I thought the only way I could do that if if I had a higher office. I contacted the Imperial Wizard number Imperial Wizard is the man who's in charge of the entire nation. I called them up on the phone and I said Bill I want a national office. I done a great job in the Indiana clan running it. I feel I've started the youth clan. I actually started recruiting for the youth clan clear down into the elementary grade and that the clan had grown under me and he said well yeah, you're absolutely right. I do think you're ready for a national office but the only one we got coming available is the national chaplain of the clan's SSI guy don't anything about being a preacher and even your you're a good public speaker. All you have to do start reading the Bible start pulling out some good founding Scripture verses and put them in your speech is start founding religious and I'll take care of the rest analyzable that sound like a plan to me. So I started reading my Bible that very night that I didn't know where to turn in the Bible. I did know one book from the Bible from the other books from the Bible.

I had no idea I should've started in the book of Genesis, by gift, but I didn't. I realize now it was God guiding me. I started reading the gospel of John. And as I was reading that I boldly if this is great view for the stories of Jesus College of fine think the things Jesus said, "Jesus and found to much more religious than Jesus. And so I'm reading along the gospel of John. Everything fine until I get the John chapter 4 John chapter 4.

If the Samaritan woman at the well story and it was one of the clan.

Favorite stories to tell because every clan meeting is started with the clan preacher if they really do believe that they are the true Christians at the clan preacher would open up the clan meeting with a prayer with the Scripture, sometimes with a sermon and I had heard clan preachers preach on the Samaritan woman at the well story several times, so I was familiar with us all. I know this story, and I knew what a Samaritan was because the clan had taught me that one correctly half Jewish half Gentile. If I knew what that was, or if the clan would call them race mixers three and so I'm reading down through and I get to the point where the woman asked the Samaritan woman asked Jesus for a drink and GM or Jesus brevet half the Samaritan woman for a drink in the Samaritan woman said why you asked me for a drink. You are at you. I am a Samaritan and of the Bible says that you don't have anything to do with Samaritan at that point, the clan chaplain would close the Bible that was the end I tell you what an interesting story here will come back on the other side.

Find out what happens when Dr. Richard Harris keeps reading what happens in the gospel of John. Wow, it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown back friends to the line of fire 866-34-TRUTH 7884 that is the number to call if you got any questions or comments, but reticular time right now with her special guest Dr. Richard Harris. All right KKK member going to be national chaplain chaplain for the, the clan you're now reading the gospel of John a favorite story Jews of the Samaritan so whites, we superior ones have nothing to do with those inferior Blacks. That's the hateful narrative you've been fed and now you keep reading in John four. I keep reading, reading the Bible for myself and I I realize weight that not the end of the story because the clan chaplains would would stop at that Jews don't have anything to do a Samaritan halfbreed race mixers and they would fit well were smarter than Jews. Berkeley and of course the answer was always well yes of course we are.

I I had only met one Jewish person in my entire life at that point and and they said well we know better. Better than Jews.

The Jews don't have any race mixing bowl. We don't have anything to do that either the Samaritan woman at the well story shows us that Jesus paid race mixing that was the clan flying and that but now I'm reading it for myself I'm white that's popping in the story.

There's more to it. What if the and I keep reading.

I read that story and I realize that this this race mixing Samaritan woman. She became a believer in Jesus and Jesus accepted her and the left or and then she goes back to the town to bring the whole old town full of the halfbreed and they become believers in Jesus and Jesus loves them to and accept them. The story of the Samaritan woman at the well was Jesus loves race mixers and that's when the light bulb came on. I mean I wasn't stupid. It was like this is obviously the clan have lied to me and it wasn't just one clan chaplain. I've heard preach on that particular passage.

I'd heard several over the years available for the same thing like I read the Gospel of John. I kept reading. That night I stayed up all night long.

I read the entire Gospel of John. I kept finding place after place after place where the clan had just slightly twisted. The Scriptures sometimes just absolutely taught the wrong thing of the exact opposite of what the Scriptures with teaching and bite. By the time I got done of the gospel of John. That night I I knew that I had to get out the clan have lied to me. They were not the true Christian like I thought they really were and I did know how to pray. I prayed a very simple prayer God if there's any way that you can get me out of this alive. I want to find out what a true Christian is I want to be one I called the Imperial Wizard of the very next day and I quit the clan will okay so one thing you're telling us is that very few of these people actually seriously read the Bible, otherwise they would have seen the deception and then had to make a choice and obviously assisted the clan. They want to be serious with God in the Scripture you have this radical conversion.

I wish I could get into even more details, but that our time is short and want to make sure we we go on with what's happened since in the ministry are doing today but just very quickly whether repercussions with their threats against you will absolutely, there were coming, they put a gun to my head and they said that you keep your mouth shut or you know what's going to happen to you. I knew exactly what that meant and I did keep my mouth shut about 15 years until finally I realize that that God really needed me to hell wanted me to tell people and hopefully keep others from following the same path that I did. Once I start speaking out against the clan, the clan really turned against me, and that became my enemy and so they they been out to get me everything right so what have you now giving yourself to in terms of the right message and and modeling which Jesus is about what you went. When I preached now I not only obviously speak out against the clan and peeled off leave other whites of primitive groups because we obviously, I hope, obvious to your readers that they they are in the wrong.

But it's not just that rate racism view of so many times we in the in the white white church have thought that well were not planned were not Nazi. So therefore were not racist. We don't have a problem with it but racism if it's not quite that black-and-white appeal to you upon ready to give on a continuum and you may not be at the extreme. In like like these people are, but you're somewhere on that continuum and you'll we have to ask ourselves how many family, friends, real friend, do we have that we actually invite over to her how we do things with. We go on vacation with family, friends, we have that are of different races then and the majority of white people do not have those kinds of friendships they can point to. That's the way that we get to understand each other and communicate with each other when we start having real friendships not associate associate that that the work or at school and well you know I feel my fate. Hi to him. We treat each other decent. But no, I'm talking about real building real bridges and real friendship.

Yeah, that is, that is quite a challenge and something that exposes not not necessarily racism but lack of shared life experience and you Richard just being a live radio for nine years. The many calls that I got from African-American listeners gave me perspectives that I never had my entire life. Even with all my interacting with my Christian friends because they tended to be in a certain political or social, or spiritual stop place that we had even more in harmony and many of my listeners love the Lord but had very different perspectives on things are different life experiences and it really helped expand so my thinking is I'm constantly listening and learning entrance. You will have a blind spot culturally background. Whatever it is so this is a great question for us to ask ourselves, what have you now been able to do, not just in bringing that challenge, but in constructive steps to help minorities to bring a reconciliation. One of the things that have happened in my life. In the last couple of years is an African-American pastor, senior pastor of a large after the American church in the area you heard came in he heard me speak and I was challenging, challenging the ministerial leaders in the group I was put on by the Chamber of Commerce and all there's a lot of business leaders love challenging, particularly the religious leaders you know if you really want to build multicultural bridges. If you want to build a multicultural church and really reach out and begin to develop a friendship and this communication then when when people of of a different color than what you are coming to your church. They better see multiculturalism. They better fit different colors up there on the platform in the leadership because if they don't see someone in the leadership like them there. There looked very unlikely to return to your church and that at the time I had just stepped down from being a senior pastor pastoring for 31 years and that I was I was at university teaching and an African-American senior pastor came up to me and he said it's time to put your money where your mouth is. I know you're not pastoring.

Come join my staff and be one of my associate pastors because I have stored after an American church that I would love to see begin to reach out to two other races and do exactly what you what you said and so of course my African-American congregation. They absolutely love going around telling you would not believe we have on our platform. Come on up in our pulpit. Come on, you know, II that that you would even have more joy for the African-American congregation to have someone like you on the pastoral staff then an all white congregation to have a former Black Panther on their pastoral staff. I think there is a greater embrace of the greatest celebration simply because of history and end Richard folks want to find out about more about your work, especially if the efforts of the story to associate for grand Dragon of the KKK to associate pastor. The African-American church that's that's God that's is gonna bring you great joy every day. But if the if they want to go to website or a book you've written. What's the best thing to go to a place to go and check out my website always been progress all of them are, but if Hera speaks.com HAR RIF Hera speaks.com and also they can pick up a copy of my book off of Amazon is one station, one station I one nation under a curse. The name of the book by Dr. Richard Harris's website.

Harris speaks.com brother. Thank you for sharing an incredible story with us today. God bless you. Thank you Dr. Brown here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks friends for joining us. 866-34-TRUTH never called.

We've got a brand-new video that you want to watch if you remember last week I had Ezra Levant with me from rebel media in Canada some strong warnings about what is happened was free speech in Canada and also his great heart to stay with the persecuted church in the Middle East we have that interview up, but we also want to draw your attention to another video a Christian response to Google's intolerance, as well as what is the mark of Cain so couple of videos just me and then one with a great interview with Ezra Levant from rebel media in Canada to watch those good asked her to Brown.org ask your Brown double check out latest videos are digital library check out the latest articles, including one from last night. There is hope for America. Yeah, there is hope for America. Despite where we find ourselves today. Let me share with you testimony from a very different perspective. This is a black brother Stewart Greaves posted this on Facebook and friend sent me the link many years ago I had a very interesting experience.

This brother and in ministry and he shares this I was living in Melbourne, Florida, and I was driving back to my apartment.

Suddenly I heard the Holy Spirit say stop pullover when I heard this, I immediately noticed a white supremacist skinhead walking down the road. My heart was strangely moved and I heard share the gospel with him to get this is an African-American driving back to his apartment in Florida. He hears the Holy Spirit say strong stop pullover and he looks and sees white supremacist skinhead driving down the road and the Lord says share the gospel with him, he writes. I immediately began to question the wisdom of this directive and proceeded to inform the Lord about how things work down here and that being a black man. It probably wasn't a good idea didn't seem like wisdom. I proceed to consent to continue to drive my part, I got out of my car, but with every step towards my apartment is as though a man had his hand on my chest and was squeezing my heart.

The more I walked away from where I needed to be.

I probably couldn't take it anymore. I turned around towards the entrance of the apartment complex.

When I got to the exit. This man was just walking towards the entrance and a small bottle in the back of my pocket. I reached to grab it when all of a sudden realized that it wasn't such a good idea and suddenly he positioned himself to fight me. I extend my handsome and I said wait, I'm reaching for my Bible. I want to talk to you proceeded to release a few expletives and about how it is right for us to be talking response to this.

I said something until this day I don't know why, because again it is not like this is a friendly environment that out of my mouth comes, I represent everything you hate. I'm a Christian I'm a black and my great-grandmother was Jewish as son is share with you, we began to talk about racism and white supremacy. He told me about the coming racial conflict. American asked me how I would fight I just a no uncertain terms. I told him the gospel of Christ and his word is my weapon.

Our conversation continues about two hours and towards the end I had the opportunity to share Jesus with him. He didn't see Esther Christ, but had a significant change of attitude went on to say how much he began to respect me as a person.

I gave my Bible. He received it. We parted ways. His name is Michael I don't know where he is or how he ended up some plant some water.

The Lord brings the increase. However, Michael is in my thoughts and my prayers in so far as the grabbing of my heart is concerned I will never forget it. God's deep desire is to win some if not many over his to his mercy, truth and truth and grace, pulse of the love of Christ compels us. Second Corinthians 514 friends.

The only church. The response has and must have is the gospel response we find ourselves asking was it really mean are just let's go find out what Christ and his gospel really has to say about the growing crisis in the land it absent flows, but there is a mounting crisis. Whatever the social crisis. This current one, or any other. The central issue before us is knowledge of Christ is through the Scripture understanding from expounds or expands our understanding of his gospel grows and goes on with some further quote so here's here's a question to think about to mull over what if Jesus physically had been in Charlottesville this past Saturday with the neo-Nazis, white supremacists white nationalist extremists with their despicable chance in March there.

There then you have others who are standing against them with some radical elements in their midst as well and some folks just like that the young woman was killed. From what I've read. Live locally insistent. My second hatred on her streets. She wasn't as much a counter protest to some radical counter protesters met a young woman who cared to see that junk streets of her city will make a statement about so you have this going on. For whatever reason, the police basically standdown them in some think it was conspiratorial from the left it that there would be a conflict and an easy either way.

We know the root of the whole thing though the start of the whole thing from everything we understand was neo-Nazis, white supremacists, which we with one voice denounce this from below, not from above. Nothing American good righteous about it.

Nothing Christian about it.

But if Jesus was there.

We have done it at an obviously we all have our perspectives but I would sink that he would be going after lost sheep, don't you, don't you think he'd be a gallant print, I asked you what you think I'm telling what I say can tell you you should think the same thing. So here is what I think there's life you're entitled to think what you think you're slicing he'd be looking for some lost soul, and there are plenty of and may be some neo-Nazi hate filled ringleader Jew hating black hating minority hating and and maybe got to that one person spoken one word to them and the next thing they would be on their face weeping and repenting of his presence can do that.

His presence alone can bring about that kind of radical change. But then, maybe one word spoke and it uncovered the root of hatred and bitterness like our guest Dr. Richard Harris re-talks about one of the issues he had was being bullied as a boy. Now you get in that an ethnic minority being bused over brought over to school in the early days of segregation and now he's got some group that he can express hatred towards even on point of fact, they they were not the cause of his problems but is going to have an outlet here and perhaps just one word spoken gets to the root of it and releases torrent of repentance and an transformation of life. Who knows. I do know this. That's what Jesus is about only stance righteous. So yes will judge the whole world yes will come in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that don't know God and obey the gospel. Yes yes yes but right now while he's working the earth in many different ways and bringing judgment as well.

He is leading people out of darkness to light is bringing them to repentance. Maybe ever friend that's lost far away from God help pray them into the kingdom of his life there is hope. You know it's a subject we don't talk about much on the air, but fossil fuels.

It's a big issue. Is there a moral case for the use of fossil fuels is time for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown yes yes he will be talking about Pres. about Charlottesville about reconciliation about conflict in America.

We will be doing that. The second half of the sow. I will be taking her calls, 866-348-7884 but we get tons of books sent to us by different publishers and publicists as as everyone does with with radio shows, radio programs of of any size, and trust me some get a ton more books sent to them than I've ever seen. But we get a steady flood sent by publishers, publicists, and I'll be showing different topics and or or my sister will look at, say, how about yet. Let's do this.

Let's do that and in point of fact, even though for years and years and years and years and years and years issues about climate control issues about fossil fuels issues about our responsibility for the environment.

They have been giant issues that have been discussed endlessly. People like Al Gore made even a greater name for themselves through their arguments about climate control and human factors and how were destroying the world. I'm virtually never talked about these things may have a friend on a couple weeks ago who mentioned some things about climate control and assessment of the few conversations I can remember. You say will dull thesis concerning your use of fossil fuels was right or wrong is immoral doesn't concern you. To be honest I never focused on. I focus on some of the other issues I study some of the other issues I feel burned about some of the other issues I just never focused on and you have the same with economic issues. We all know economic issues of massive importance in the economy affects every single one of us and very, very real ways but are there to talk about this, just not an area of expertise. I have area burden I've had is important as it is some of the Lord's call be to study look at. So when when we had this opportunity presented to us to bring on Alex Epstein to talk about his book the moral case for fossil fuels, which asked the question. Could everything we know about fossil fuels be wrong so won't let's do this. I mean I I'll what your listeners. I want your listeners to it, to at least bring on an expert ransom is written about this to to have an intelligent discussion for all of you because it's just nothing that I've focused on her talked about, but it is worthy of discussion. So for decades, environmentalists have told us that using fossil fuels is a self destructive addiction that will destroy our planet is at the same time every measure of human well-being from life expectancy to clean where the climate safety life has been getting better and better. So we come back and speak with Alex Epstein.

He started the center for industrial progress to offer an alternative environmental philosophy to America, one that is antipollution but prodevelopment is a popular speaker on college campuses publicly debate leading environmentalists, lives in California all that could be interesting. Epstein all right I received Epstein Epstein can't get it right.

Epstein.

So the book the moral case for fossil fuels, I might be able to take a call to want to devote every minute I can to the interview, but if you got setting pressing a really different was on their guesses. I might be able to call to 866-34-TRUTH 7884 and then about a half-hour break were going to switch subjects and get back to the larger rumblings surrounding Charlottesville and give you further perspectives and interact with you right here on the line of fire.

The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown hi we thought we'd take a few minutes already to set the stage. My guess Alex Epstein fossil fuels.

What's fascinating is document 2014 yet remains on Amazon number one in several categories including natural resource extraction, oil, energy, fossil fuels, it's number 1234 these different categories and I'm looking over 400 reviews only 6% slanted with one store even though my guest is McCall the climate denier. The most recent review five stars is the vast, vast majority are no more. The book disputing climate change alarmism has been written so well. Bravo, Mr. Epstein, Alex, thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire.

All right, the most basic question here. Climate change, climate change alarmism. The things we associate with the Al Gore's and Michael Moore's of this world don't we know for a fax or that it's really happening to we know for a fact that you know polar bears are endangered because of lack of ice and water coming don't we just know that this is happening in and look at how hot it's been certain times or how can you deny this is business. The fundamental thing you run into right off the bat: question I don't think even properly, but that is improperly framed the issue of how much warming fossil fuels. Not the basic question. The question is do fossil fuel the human portion or not. If so, how much and not how much do they harm a man, their impact on the atmosphere is one half what I don't market for fossil fuels is a focus on the basics, which is one of good for human flourishing medical marketing that we need to look carefully at the positive and negative of different alternative versus in the way you written out. I know you're just raising it exactly right know if you threw polar bears and yells course.

How is that a primary we have 3 billion people in the world.

Virtually no energy yet polar bears are a popular thing to come up very early on. Only if we really have the human flourishing perspective only if were committed to look at the whole picture. We even know when to talk about the things and how much weight to place on got it right. It is interesting as we encountered many years ago with a fellow from Evergreen going door-to-door raising money for his cause seat not to drive a friend of mine said on raising money to help save that the baby whales of my friends that I'm more concerned with saving the baby humans and the guy got very upset and walked away.

But that's that's that's the issue, human flourishing, so let's say someone is listening, which must fossil fuels. They don't even know what this is and where displays in the debate today, so just give us that in this case the most basic of the basics fossil fuels. What's the real issue here and report provider though energy of the power go every other are talking about work with energy and something that people want to go on reliable will make every other value or treatment upon arrival and expend their air and unreliable.

It'll do the opposite. Walmart have those falling prices.

Imagine those prices double and triple and quadruple in.

That's what it means more expensive energy than fossil fuel or an option in terms of using energy and merely option chosen around 85% of the time around the world now.

That's a lot. It's really unlikely that in every country happen and that is to some sort of spirit if we look at it now, it that it's really really hard to produce energy cheaply clamped when reliably on a scale of hundreds of millions, but a lot billions of people you have to come up with the right kind of source and the right kind of froth of the right kind of distribution in the only industry that called it off is the fossil fuel industry. Even if there are negative side effect fossil fuels we need to recognize that this is the one industry that is demonstrably capable of fulfilling this fundamental human. That's where I start and then I look at okay in that context. How big a deal at five. When I find it that thanks to ingenuity, knowledge, there getting no situations are getting better and better. So we have more of the resource never human ingenuity.

We have less pollution than ever thank human ingenuity and action are climate is safer than ever, thanks to using fossil fuels and other technologies to take the naturally dangerous on and make what drives the alarmism, which he said seems very pragmatic, simple, clear be easy enough just to look around the world. I know there pollution problems in countries like China and India as you have massive population increases in people flocking to the city's more mature saying that that these are being addressed and dealt with why the alarmism really really good question. First thing we are on why the alarmism but I tried before. I think it really comes down to the issue of one or whole because alarmism implies I'm alarmed about.

My goal being harmed thing that I'm after their some enter go human flourishing and feel another threat is actually reducing possibilities that that will be the big problem then there one of two possibilities.

One is people are just not making the right factual calculations are not really calculating the positive and negative history of the public that the leaders of that they've been too exposed to the evidence thereto, obviously biased against fossil what's going on there goal is not to maximize human flourishing is to minimize human impact. They do care about. Well, much more than they care about humans really. They just are opposed to human, they minimize human impact that just means you like every part of nature more than human. And if that's your goal, and ethical were taught as moral minimize her impact on the planet, then you're going to be opposed to any kind of industrial progress because human progress including industrial progress means impacting nature and very transformative with what happened there against fundamentally, all forms of energy, which is why they only support imaginary forms of energy like solar and wind that don't really work for scale very well, but if those never became big and successful, then they would oppose those to an obviously that this the word moral in the title of your book the moral case for fossil fuels that that's a very important word that the people can hear the moral argument even rising, and I will come back to that very specifically but what has to be baffling is why would human beings not care about human beings. I can give a religious theological issue or a perspective and say that there's a lack of recognition that were created in the image of God and therefore no different than a tree or an animal. But if we just look at it and brought or not theological terms say that a lot of people are not concerned. People are not concerned with what's best for people how you work that out important that we should back up the natural religion or not, would be for human beings to care about human. Yes, it shouldn't be all you have to expect at some particular set of theological tenant to care about your own child more than a mosquito bite that is not exactly incredible, so it is really worth looking at how it how is this possible, and there are a lot of historical answers on but one is a delegate to one is just people not thinking clearly about what the moral goal is. So if somebody says will minimize your impact. I think I will yeah I'm against pollution. The novella minimize impact the media. Pollution, but you really again, you really can develop. Transforming nature of the fundamental of human survival. So people don't about it really. And then what reinforces that nonthinking that clearly if they have a false view of the relationship between human beings and the rest of nature have what I call the perfect planet product. They believe that that nature is naturally stable, safe and sufficient.

And so the only worry that is to rock the boat, whereas in reality the fear of the imperfect planet nature's day is is dynamic, dangerous and efficient. It's not good enough. We have to upgrade and if you have that premise. Your fear is not rocking the boat. It is not improving.

Because of this perfect planet, not really challenged people even more buy-in to this idea of minimizing human impact. Even though if you take it seriously. It really means dehumanized the planet little weird that people think they're benefiting human when they're actually taking the most antihuman position imaginable is extraordinary and then somehow it gets politicize this right versus left which seems even odder and just 30 seconds before the break, but that any comment on that will what I'm trying to do it but I called the human flourishing movement to transcend capital. Do you really care about individual life, being healthy and happy and productive. If you do let's start thinking in those terms. And what the evaluate which political policies and energy call actually advance that got it.

Got it I friends my guest Alex Epstein the book the moral case for fossil fuels become back. I want to find out what's what's going on climate related climate related deaths of the increasing decrease in interest and that he must have a busy debate schedule all the folks who want to challenge the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown back to the line of fire. My guest Alex I author of the influential book the moral case for fossil fuels we hear so much challenge about these various views the views that you espouse so much of of what is an alarmist viewpoint about human changes in the climate and and that's the end of the world is around the corner so you must have a busy debate schedule all the people who want to challenge you right. I really interesting with action that I would take today.

In particular, not to be too political.

But the lack is very eager to debate it ideas which you might expect because they they often contain a very high degree of moral confidence in them. Scientific confident intellectual confident in ideas, but it is a general establishment tendency to just condemn people who disagree with them. Yet, that of explaining like I was going nice to have a bunch of a method to persuade people effectively.

I don't want to too many problems but I talked other people of my people just condemn me. Interesting that they don't feel the need to persuade you. Like I need to persuade other people like it if they fair of you.

I think is wrong I can spell your evil. You must be stupid.

How is that there there is this illusion of superiority when the moral case for fossil fuel came out. I wasn't surprised that I was not happy that people didn't want to engage and I've gone to a lot of blank to make people engage in and out of the hundred thousand dollar offer Al Gore to debate me what you taken me up on his interview with there is no really there.

There's no debate about energy policy proposals by you that would outlaw 80% of the world's current energy use. With that we can even debate that we can even debate whether this can be a 1 foot or 2 foot sea level rise versus the 20 foot sea level rise that you claimed in 2006 is gonna come back really kind of dishonest thing and I think the best way to promote debate is just to really spread around the flourishing issue.

Let's talk about what policies regarding energy and fossil bills are best for human flourishing. What are if you're not willing to debate that you're not.

And it's not responsible to call for drastic measures. Not being willing to debate got it yet in course I understand that. Willing to debate. Hence the facetious nature of my questions are to reveal the very things, what, when you have this air superiority at moral and intellectual superiority. Then you shut down opposing views that almost guarantees and experiences position of your own self taught us about reality, Alex. What's the trend regarding climate related deaths increasing or decreasing increasing important even raise that question, give almost nobody for working and we care about climate how livable climate for the perfect family.

People are dying from climate climate related that the people at the config is not public but not documented by the people claim catastrophic climate change because either they're not thoughtful enough to even think about it in human terms are so absorbed in this idea, let's focus on polar bear and let's focus on molecules of CO2 that are actually care about the body, or there is being dishonest because they know that that number has been reduced from in the Billy in the 30s and the thousand that the last check last year that the current number that they have calculated last year is 6114 about how many problems in the world are there only 6114 – while very many yeah that's that's an extraordinary figure you just look at the car deaths in America justice as one of a multitude of statistics in the skin. It completely demolish a number like that. So let's get back into the positive side, the moral case for fossil fuels. Why it all right so less deaths but but what is moral about using these fossil fuels houses ultimately can help human flourishing or it is important that oral and moral case for fossil fuels means human because the case against fossil fuels pretend to be government but it's really an anti-going minimal impact. Of course we shouldn't be changing nature should be impact nature before adding any mercy into the atmosphere. It must be worth a lot. My perspectivism map it out here to the atmosphere. If the net result is a really really good for pregnant banks. It actually that of defining the goal serve the standard by which we judge everything that's actually the most consequential thinking is we really start measuring thing in human terms.

Just feel my thoughts will care about medicine, where we get to where we get the manufacturing capability to make medicine where we get the power for hospitals and where we get the time to do medical research that acquires a machine labor supply productive you take any realm. What you'll P. That energy is fundamental and therefore the distinctly cheap plan for reliable and scalable energy provided to the fossil fuel industry is essential and to the extent that diminished life is going to get worse. It really is a universal value to humans work Johnny and lastly, when when people who are looking at this in the here a lot of the alarmism you mentioned some of the predictions that haven't come to pass an in people don't take responsibility for the Al Gore predictions in 2006 if if you were just giving a couple of other instances. To some, a CI and I need more ammunition to to get people just to think just to get them to wonder what else would be some of the most striking things that we been told with this into the world scenario, there is its appearance upon us and it hasn't happened yet very important game claims that are made today catastrophic resource inflation, catastrophic pollution, catastrophic climate change. All of those have been made since defendant and give a couple examples here, but it people want to get a lot of them go to moral case for fossil fuels.com and you can reach Capri first chapter the book what is called the secret history of fossil which is all about the these prediction, but for instance Paul Ehrlich who is one of the world leading ecologist is still prestigious professor at Stanford extent that by the 90 flight 90 England would have a 50-50 chance of nonexistent. That kind of thing. Talk to John Holdren, Pres. Obama leadtime advisor. He predicted in the mid 85 year 2020. We have a billion climate related tasks from CO2 and if you look at the staff actually billion more people are that, in large part because of fossil fuel energy, power, and all the different agricultural machine and oh by the way you feel extra CO2 in the atmosphere that we really enrich the atmosphere that has led to dramatic increases in plant growth, including crop rights of friends, go to the moral case for fossil fuels by Al.com. The moral case for stress is no snow in the now sorry okay thank you for correcting the moral case for fossil fuels.com download the first chapter of the book and then to get the entire book. It is by Alex Epstein. All the information will be there hate at a certain point, truth and sanity will prevail.

So keep getting the message out. I appreciate you helping to educate our listeners are about your questions were really thinking about the book is all right. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 66343 here again is Dr. Michael Brown thank you for joining us today on the line of fire.

With your permission to talk about really controversial issues.

All right.

And I want to hear from you.

8663 for 87884 I posted this Saturday night. Once I was there with ministry and spending time with the folks that were hosting us. I then posted this Saturday nights of the night of the Charlottesville tragic events.

I said this, there is nothing American about white supremacist. Nothing heroic. Nothing praiseworthy. Nothing patriotic is a rotten ugly mindset, full of hatred, bigotry, and pride in every person of conscience should denounce.

It degrades others who are also created an image of God and takes his name in vain to further its cause. Whatever our political or racial or ethnic background. As Americans we need to stand together against that is a statement that I issued immediately and obviously is categorical and clear as