Best of Broadcast: Dr. Brown Talks with a Biblical and Semitic Scholar Who Has Lost His Faith

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. So what happens when the biblical scholar loses his faith or the line of fire with your host activist all the international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown was the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends you do something unique on the line of fire today have an open, honest conversation a raw conversation since a risky conversation for everyone involved. But, but one I believe is going to be very very helpful in the long term, and I will be taking calls but I will be devoting welcome this show to a man that I've gotten to know online it in a way because of our background and interaction with refills of her friends move just talk online and via email. Dr. Josh Bowen.

She graduated with his PhD from Johns Hopkins Johns Hopkins University in 2017 PhD in the Syria obligee since the study of of ancient Babylonian and Syrian specialized in Sumerian literature, one some scholarships along the way. Previously got his BS in religion from Liberty University THM and Old Testament from capital Bible seminary. That is MA it Johns Hopkins was a chaplain in the US Air Force where he also gained an AA in avionics, but is no longer a believer no longer believe in God and Jesus in the Bible is God's word. His most recent book, the atheist handbook to the Old Testament volume 1, but Dr. Bowen is not hostile. We discussed hey, let's let's come on the air and talk about the course your studies how you lost your faith how I went through very similar studies. My faith was strengthen where you at today and of just in our interaction. Joshua said let's be candid and open so Josh, thanks so much for joining us on the air today appreciated very much on our partners partners are migrated from him. Sure thing so I I discovered you Josh is the digital Hammurabi of me that got my attention because my own studies and background in appreciating any more than those Akkadian well and we were supposed to do a debate on slavery in the Old Testament.

So what was your take on what actually came down we did it. Yeah, it was very interesting narrative of the weighted weighted up with the build was supposed to be the knockdown drag out in a no, no, hold hard and I had court. Nothing could be further from reality of it was probably one of the most pleasant online discussions that I've had about any topic, I am in particular about labor neighbor Bible. So actually, I caught a fair amount of flak because people are people that you should have been. You should of been more efficient and more aggressive and I don't really fill out a benefit to that knows nothing of the great conversation yeah it is funny. I know someone like on. That's a believer I got my said this all yeah you you bested Dr. Ball in the debates, it wouldn't have a debate. We had a conversation and I was impressed by all the study was done. I thought you were just preparing for the debate loves you. You writing a whole book on it and we ended up with agreement on out on a lot of points as we are going to guy. I thought I thought the camaraderie tortuous as we interacted and then subsequently said hey why not become on the year and have an honest talk about your your own journey so you made clear to me that you want to be totally open. Same here. If it any point. I ask you a question you don't want to go there to say that this fine if you say so of but you know II want to be scanned with me as possible and in total candor and an idol of an opening this in a manipulative way but just in my place to honesty I really believe that God's work in your life that your faith is can be restored, that you may expect me to say that as a believer, but I when to say it lightly, so right now how would you categorize yourself agnostic, atheist, we're where you put yourself. Thanks for the better part of the past two years I've gone with the label agnostic, probably because I am not a big philosophy guys so I haven't really thought about it too terribly much.

You know somebody makeable. Do you you believe that there is there any God that I stumble now in the light exterior and atheist you should probably say that your native so I mean I guess the bottom line is that I don't I don't think that there been any God exists. But I have no way of knowing that you know so taking a position that that definitely there is no God that exist I think is outside of the realm of the honest possibility for me while I would say that II haven't seen any evidence to support the belief in a deity, but that doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. Technically, I'm an agnostic atheist 90 yeah I understand right so to be a thoroughly consistent atheist's estate. An absolute statement that no deity exists, which should mean that there's no possibility that God could create everything and simply hide himself for whatever or so how do you look back at your past days as as a Christian.

What's your as you think back yourself and him will go through your history and try to understand it more just to get the bridle in the snapshot now you kinda look back with pity, like who was that deluded guy or how can I been so simplistic, or it was sweet. This payment wasn't real. What would you say I guess I met is probably the best way to describe it.

And you know that are listening.

That might be in a more skeptical or if it might not like that.

I say that I probably don't mind the dumpster.

Many of them feel the same way you have my my faith was at the core of who I was for the better part of 26 years so you know that that paradigm shift has been fairly dramatic one. I would say. And no, I mean II think I was working with inner doing the best of the materials I had and not I don't I don't think that I was irrational for the things that I believe in and actually I think that in a lot of these online discussions. I feel like I'm playing the part. Quite often of the let let let me strawman. The Christian position because I think what they're saying theologically, fairly often quite consistent. I don't agree with it. I think it more consistent.

Maybe then the people. People like to accredit the theological theological position like what what what would you say that you miss most about your past life.

This probably sounds too simplistic, but II miss knowing the answers and what I mean by that is I miss knowing and I told you this all fair you know we in a people notice. We we lost our newborn son/finite and that was probably one of the most difficult experiences that have gone through because I did it without my faith in Christ and you obviously would've been intensely dramatic for anyone labor unbeliever by not having at the at the end of the day that knowledge that come to see Harry again. No, please, please take the time just started expect that event that turnout was incredibly difficult. So I think having that type of security and hope this as I emailed you, right before the show.

I take this is a sacred entrustment that here you are, your Internet personality, not just as a scholar and worked with few students in the school you got websites and platforms and all that in your your open about your journey and in your current state of nonbelief and the fact that the field towards me as a friend and willing to come on the air to say.

Be open, because I wasn't can ask you some questions because I didn't want to betray trust so that your this open to me is something very sacred and in the crystal want to say to you, though, Josh, and in the midst of this, and again I think you know me well enough to know that I'm not trying to be manipulative. Plus you been through enough that you I can be manipulated. Here's the reality. The reality stands were going to support you and I believe or don't believe correct numbers are terrible, our belief, or lack thereof doesn't change reality which means which means that my believing what I believe to be true. What used to believe to you have the real possibility of being with Harry forever and that that's there it in the words he's gone from this world and is a mailto I can't. I can imagine never suffer the loss of a child so I can imagine that the trauma newborn with you and your wife went through, and that in that process.

Yet at the same time. Reality is what it is. As far as I'm concerned you know he's he's he's in a place of unimaginable beauty and and there's the potential of you getting to join him again can't just ask S this digital Hammurabi is you and your wife Megan. You've since had twins correct so God it got it. M. Feel free to tell me not to go there but can you share or would you like to share with your wife is in terms of processing all this in her life with you. Yeah, sure. So Megan to Christian. Anglican group in the UK and actually go to Episcopal Church diligently printed before accounted not. I teach and I hope you Sunday school at surfing. So it would I think obviously incredibly difficult for her, but I think that God probably struggled in a different way from what she did and you know to be clear, Megan is also an inferior allergist and I met her Johns Hopkins associate she's a she's no dummy distinction and everything that I know so so amazingly yeah right so we gotta we got unpacked. This friends with with my guest, Dr. Josh Bowen of the ways website digital Hammurabi just like it's as if we could spell it you get there digital Hammurabi.con so she was just was remarkable get a break in them will come back and start to go through the history here you are, identifies an agnostic atheist helping teach Sunday school and Episcopal Church with your wife is a believer. She has gone through the exact same life experiences and losses that you have and has read the exact same Bible the exact same ancient Greece material still has her face would love to have yours back.

Don't feel that that's realistic we have a lot to talk about. While Josh, thank you. Be on the air. This will be right back over and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice it more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends on I'm speaking with with a moment former Christian, agnostic, atheist, presently Dr. Josh Bowen and Siri allergist. He and his wife had up the digital Hammurabi website digital Hammurabi.com. And hey, if you have wanted to learn Samarian or something like that.

The put out a book to do it. His latest book, the atheist handbook to the Old Testament volume 1 but it's not meant to to bash to be aggressive as much is to have honest discussion and what I said at the outset of the broadcast that this could be risky. We agreed to do it risky on the one hand that here's Josh's opening time of his own life in front of multiplied thousands of listeners, viewers, and here I am saying, go ahead. Share your faith struggles more you lost your faith with with people in the house. It can affect them, but it's something we felt important. This is real life. You know, such as the conversation. This is real life. So Josh, thanks again for being on the air with us course so okay just justice to start with the beginning we raised in evangelical Christian home. Yeah. So my my entire family was fundamentalist evangelical Christians into my my grandfather was a licensed Baptist minister, you know, so I think that it's important probably to know everybody to know that I wasn't.

I guess I hear a lot, you know what what was he really say right was he what did he really believe and I think nobody should just go ahead and rest assured that I did you know we you die I got saved when I was five or six. I remember my grandfather getting me down. My mother sitting me down the thing look you know you understand me these concepts now you know Jesus. Jesus died for your sins.

And you know you do wrong things and and mean it is a very real conversation about if you die in your sin, hello, hello eight so uniting that that aspect of my life. It wasn't a people use the terms religiosity. What is it external religiosity and internal adjustment right, but you know I missed this was interesting and aspect of my life. My faith was who I was and made up the core of my being and in my entire family was was very much the same way so writes another which you point back to your five or six that you had as a boy born again experience something like that for collective terminology quote got saved. Then, so that was faxed to that was his sure is that the chair you are sitting in that you are following Jesus in the Bible is true that's out so that's how you grew up right yeah I mean, you know, I would say that you begin six-year-old difficult to know exactly where in this course development process. They are, but things that I knew is that I tend right I did I did wrong thing right and that God was a perfect God did no sin, and that he lived in heaven and unit wanted me to live there as well but couldn't have anybody in heaven that had sin.

But Jesus came and lived a perfect life himself and died on the cross in order to pay the penalty for my sin and everybody else's and all I had to do was. I trust that his what he did by dying on the cross actually paid the penalty for my sin, and in my I would have my sins forgiven. So that was unit I was the basic message that I understood and of course you know that that developed and we were in church every Sunday and every Wednesday. Course I had pastored a church for seven years and are just at all. The chaplain in the Air Force when you went to seminary suits and assess to tell me share a memory if you can with me of what at that point seem like an absolute miraculous answer to prayer, not a mask. How you analyze it now, but at that stage of life where there was no other possible explanation except that God answered your prayer that God supernaturally intervened in your life. No, I don't mean you run out of gas. Run side of the road and somebody dry spices say, but you need help. II mean something that that would be one of those things you memorialize that that you testify about, not just I felt a certain thing but something where there was absolute from your vantage point than evidence of divine intervention. Yeah, I guess the answer thereto to quandary that wanted. I have MS and MS makes it very difficult for me to remember things from iPad.

Fortunately, in particular if it started in on the spot thing maybe maybe more to the point of because I I didn't grow up I can in a more charismatic setting. The idea of like the overt miraculous was dumping it.

Is that something that we didn't we didn't believe in, in the sense that you know things like speaking in tongues work unity types of divine healings that were in that sort of overt miraculous bends. What I would say though is that God's providence was everywhere in my life. So what I mean by that is that you teach a catechist. I like it you can find a parking spot or something that was that was God in my life so I I remember when I was in the Air Force for example, I really wanted that I really wanted to do the right thing as much as humanly possible and that included driving the speed limit, then what I mean by that is 35 going 35 exactly 30 and and I remember thinking to myself on any number of occasions driving to work and thinking oh my gosh, I'm I'm going to be late and thinking Lord I I want to do the right thing here so I'm going to obey you to do your will.

And I'm good and you are going to somehow provide for me to get there and I always remember getting there on time and I attributed that directly in every case, God's direct intervention. So while that wouldn't be something that would be here some sort of welcoming. I guess it was enough that I at the landmark that I remember writing. Because of this is happened in the house and today you just attributed to hey you got there on time. What's the big deal yeah yeah II mean I think probably a lot of what I would say is I have a lot of confirmation bias audit explained that Leah right and just when I looked at your bio and I so he went to The Bible seminary which is not charismatic and maybe some publications from professors of the anti-charismatic.

It struck me so just give you little example I was meeting with the two colleagues yesterday and in one of them out. One of them was preaching this past Sunday, the local church and felt he was to preach on fast through fasting is the breakthrough for liberty and freedom series and he fell this post. If preach on it, but he didn't want to because he didn't want to be accountable for fasting and ego and if you get intelligence to do it. He knew God was calling him through it. So he was meeting with someone else is on this person's board in another state a few days ago and they get into a conversation and my Francis is preaching this Sunday and the. The other guy says to him, gives him the title of the message she was going preach the exact title, exact words of it all.

So that was his confirmation to do it not, I can give you hundreds hundreds hundreds hundreds hundreds of stories like that but then up the ante like two, three, four, five, 10 times more dramatic this world of lived in for 49 years and in the midst of praying for people see in them.in hardship and different in others.

We all live in a fallen world.

But I was curious to know that so so you never had an experience like that one answer per unit you lay hands on someone and they went back to the doctor.

The doctor stunned. There's no explanation. The tumor was here it's gone now.

We have no explanation for it so that without that was not part of your world. That's right you we would've been, and I suspect that it also confirmation bias right because if you're familiar like Thomas Becker.

His written about like I really have a really different with his charismatic I highlighted area with little respect to him again that bright, brilliant man, but you I'm sure any court used to so having that going into the tag thinking okay get out here. First Corinthians 13 tongues. The unit at that an uppercase church and when you think when you walk into the study in a textile study with that conclusion already in mind it's very very easy to explain, explain those types of things to delete yourself interesting story about when I was pastoring a church in Virginia. The senior pastor was very much in a professional and and and I remember they asked me in the Sunday evening service like Bible study sort of thing for several weeks to teach on his speaking in time.

And of course what they wanted was a very strong man it out a lot of good evidence from the Bible against it. I remember the end it out walking for all the data and thing I look in the end, like I don't think that tongues are for today's church but I mean you can't say that from the text and your pastor said no you can close again. That's listen II believe this honesty and integrity can brace yourself honesty and integrity in the Mr. journey in its honesty and integrity little back to faith share that with you get on the scene. Is this the manipulative but disturbing honest. Obviously we come back let them eat the nasty questions.

How was that you lost your faith. What was the process. Key reasons will go from there. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 86. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks for joining us for a very special Josh: he is trained to rheology is was a PhD in sociology from Johns Hopkins University's the serious University serious degree. He and his wife, the Lewis host Digital Hammurabi.com fascinating website for ancient near Eastern studies and one that reflects Megan as a Christian and her husband Josh with us now as a former Christian currently identifies as an agnostic atheist and of Josh. We we been talking some about your background, but haven't gone into the key time where you you began to to lose your faith again for those just tuning in her joining us for radio now of Josh is not in an angry atheist trying to discourage people from leaving his said very candidly, he'd love to get his faith back to the question is what stands in the way of that. So Josh and we can't it in the scope of the broadcast into the full detail to do justice to everything in your own journey, but the short version of it. At what point in life you pastoring going on with advanced studies, similar to what I was ministry and I was getting a PhD in your Eastern languages.

A similar journey study with all secular scholars plus at all the rabbis tell me I was wrong. At what point did you begin to strongly question what you believe them and what were the key factors behind that yeah so you know I will seminary and in their secure programs for the last two years that I was there I was teaching Hebrew at the satellite campus just outside of DC and you know I I I remember I got accepted in the Johns Hopkins which I was absolutely floored. I would've expected sooner to get into NASA and into their program, but I remember having a conversation with the Dean just before classes ended and he requested I was teaching and tell the story a lot actually big for being fed to mail the look. You're going to Johns Hopkins at the pretty liberal school are you ready and I how I have my ability to break us to guard against it in my hand and I'll start my three-year-old is just walking you can find money buddy of you and I held it up and I said I'm going into the lion's den. I'm going to win souls for Christ that was that was my mission getting an education and I remember going in and I just let your assistance or what your sisters 2009 2009 okay thanks and you'll be because of the fundamentalist Christian. I didn't really I didn't really spend a lot of time worrying about things like apologetics because it wasn't a big thing for me. I died. I sort of presuppose things about protecting Aaron. I mean, I can defend that. But it wasn't really a big deal to me and sit and and from a historical standpoint I knew what history was because I had Bible but I had that the revival getting into deep historical thing and try to learn about the engineer. It wasn't really on my radar. So when I got the Hopkins and was confronted sort of full on. I had focused throughout my seminary education on the languages languages. That's what I did so Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic and Akkadian Ugaritic and Syriac, Bob Loblaw, that's what I focused in on because I wanted to get a handle attack. So then going in and reading Akkadian literary text readings to Marion literary text. Looking at how that the Hebrew Bible utilizes other engineer Eastern mythologies and at the same time you note being confronted with things like the history of the Philistines for the history of the Canaanites and seeing how that didn't line up with the Hebrew Bible made it very difficult for me very very quickly to hold onto my inerrant test finally inspired position on the Bible and once that happened because it was sort of a key tenant of my faith in the inerrancy of the tax historicity of the text.

It all fell apart quickly got it.

It was interesting is my end. And we said we exchange stories.

The moment I came to faith and was dramatically set free from drugs and all that. My dad said Michael ledger of drugs but were we Jews know believe this, so he brought him to be the local rabbi, so I got challenged on messianic prophecy in the test interpretation of the Old Testament in oral tradition. Always things out of the gate. This brand-new believer that I had experienced Jesus in my life so dramatically so incredibly and I was so intimate with God in prayer and experiencing him that the questions really troubled me. But I also had the steep experience with God. So I just GOTTA find the truth wherever wherever it leads. I gotta follow the truth because I know God is on the side of truth and if it means renouncing Jesus being a traditional Jew is also the options that it was in atheism or following Jesus and be rejected by the Jewish community. I have to follow truth, dentistry, college, and my very first class is an ancient history class and it's taught by the Siri. I'll just who despised being with freshman witness, 700 page dissertation flick Brooklyn college or something on some obscure serological issue and he's attacking the Bible's historicity from day was so II got hit by this like out of the gate. Ito, 16, 17, 18, and went through the crisis but they have the strength for me was I had this intimacy with God. I pray and commune with him and see him working in my life so I could I could I would have to be in and other irrationalist it to to reject the reality of God in my life. Yet the questions were massive questions challenging deep questions that I thought okay I'm on the check out every question I did for years, as if my faith could be unreal as I thought the film would have intellectual integrity. If I look for an answer. I come up with a cheap answer so I'm I'm determined to follow truth, so we would you say and again I I'm not trying to I'm not doubting the sincerity faith. When you went in and as far as everything you knew you were saved as a safe person could be, and is, if there was a believer on the planet you are believer.

I'm not doubting that. Not trying to re-create past reality, but did is it was there any aspect of your faith, being primarily intellectual mean only as you may clear which he believed, but primarily intellectual, so that when that pillar went. There was no the pillar to stand on.

I don't think so. And of course knowing those sorts of things I think is difficult. The reason that I say I don't think so is because initially, certainly during my my childhood and teenage years I didn't really have a lot of interest in studying down into theological issues are getting in some and even even into college and seminary. Getting into philosophical defense of the cosmological argument. Those sorts of things are or arguing about historical veracity of the biblical text wasn't buzzing in my radar at all because I knew Jesus Christ as my personal savior and and again while you and I probably had different experiences that we were categorized as God working in in our lives. Those experiences were nevertheless just as real to me and I'll tell you. I'll tell you about one aspect of this that was sort of the final nail in the coffin for me when it came to my faith. I had a friend from seminary Kmart and Mark, I have had a real tough time at Hopkins because all the way from my my wife and my kids and and he would come up every Thursday and pay drive me out to Bruno's pizza.

We would have to eat, and we talked and we walk around his big parking lot and we just talk about Christianity talk about the fate about what I was putting in when at the end of that first semester I lost my faith in You kept with me for another year and 1/2 and we go at every every week and talk about these things and because I did night I left kicking and screaming because I knew it was the last thing on earth that I wanted but I remember I would drive in the car and I would pray and you know that feeling that you get when you pray, were you just you start to communicate with God in minutes what that solace in her feeling of solace, but I remember about a year and 1/2, two years after I I still was praying because again I was hoping to have it somehow could come up with like a back door that I could say oh no… Make that and I remember praying on one day driving and I didn't feel it at all and it scared me. Actually I didn't feel that connection with the Holy Spirit any longer and from then on I and I would periodically pray that 50 if it was just a fluke and I I'd I didn't feel that connection any longer and you know, can we attribute that other things sure, but to me, that was a very strong and difficult. Honestly thing to experience that loss of of divine spiritual connection, you would love to have it back so I would do anything. My life would be a lot easier if I read it. Of course you don't like by my mother prays for me every day and she tells me that I know that my am I have a lot of family down to North Carolina. They pray for me every day that I get it and then it would be a it would be really nice to go back to. I don't… Security and a surety that I had. I don't have now will cost you again. Got got a break and got more questions to ask. I wish we had hours and hours. The question I can communicate any time and hopefully we will of I just have such a feeling my heart can't type that I'm not trying to be manipulative as you like and be manipulated as of said I really feel because it work and that prayer should be an answer to answer please.

It's not so there beat this trophy man who became atheist because I could care less about that couldn't care less about that grammatically correct, I just I just care about Josh is as a person is human being is willing to be this open raw from strangers. So we come back. I want to ask you about sexual wife those exact same material the same historical issues all at where that's going terms of, you know, others feel there are answers to things of troubled couple questions will we have time to write back. It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6643.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. So all of you watching and listening. Pray for God's very best for for Josh for the fullness of life to flood his life and for dreams greater than he can imagine to become true in real in his life. The website digital Hammurabi.com that's Josh and his wife Megan, so Josh along the way and again we got like 12 minutes so try to pack everything that that we can put all the way in your studies, you probably encountered brilliant ancient near Eastern scholars, Semitic scholars, biblical scholars that are still believers like me.

I don't mean a brilliant scholar but me.

Believers like me right it'll I'm good friends with the academically Dr. Richard Avery backing out of some urologist at Trinity, colleague, one of his colleagues, James Hofmeyr write great Egyptologist in one of the premier Egyptologist was third intermediate. Book chemist kitchen. He's written amazing books on the reliability of the Old Testament think so and wife Megan is in Syria all just so she knows the apparent problems, contradictions, historical difficulties do those answers leave you call satisfy her but leave her coat leave you cold. I think at the end of the day. Maybe it good way to answer this is not about a pattern that I see I see it in Megan and I see it in another really good friend Margaret also went through Hopkins with me.

At a Tyndale right now doing doing research work and I remember having conversations with both of them in and basically saying look, you know why is a how do you know the question I'll is that it is how you know one that there is a God, and to do that to God that you believe in is an empty right to use a just yet and deliver stylistic and keep for some reason I've no idea what but the answer that I get consistently enter other zombies.

I asked that sort of question two is that I can't. I can't objectively prove that to you right but I've had an experience with the risen Lord and I continue to have experiences with Jesus Christ and that subjective experience while in a not something that would hold up in a court of law is so real to me and I remember my friend Caleb said this to me it's it's so real to me that I know Jesus Christ as payment for my sins. Like another sonic I come up tomorrow and I remember that feeling I would've said the exact same thing. I think the difference is that both Megan and Caleb and another good friend -10, University of Texas, Austin is putting engineers law all evening having an those two evangelicals. Megan they have had time to.

It would if it was a process that is much lower for them and they were able to buy think taken the information. Think it through and come up with reasonable responses inside of them to be able to say I can I can make sense of that for me it was it was very very fast process because it came in resort about one and it was so much that I took complete step back from faith as a whole and in view. Did I think as objectively as I could and came to the conclusion that could this be in a could there be spiritual rationalizations that yes but I don't think that's likely and I think that they would say it is likely I think that the fundamental difference that you write so you got the wind knocked out of you and can sign the rational, logical reason to get it back on them oversimplifying it.

If you S me the question I would tell you all the God who saves me as I understood it was the God of that Bible and is confirm that in my experience for the last 50 is this going on 50 years now and when I go back to the God of that Bible and see him. For example, the broad strokes and was we could debate little things but lay out the history of the Jewish people and advanced scattered get preserved brought back to the land. Jerusalem is the center of world controversy how to get that right and I do believe broad strokes of messianic prophecy in a wad is one chicken obscure Jew rejected by his people become so was the light of the whole world and you can't create those things and then you know for me because I'm not a philosopher or scientist the other things used are important, but secondary. You know, being a cosmological arguments or the question of DNA and and all of that so that brings further intellectual confirmation, but I'm not gonna argue there may look I could start quoting Chua alias Linda Booth from all governmental all and after a few lines as you keep going for the next 20 and giving the morphological great donkeys you stated in his theology, and I haven't the same signs I give you my basic little scientific argument that if your science is to push back but for me it's that the God of the Bible is the one who purportedly saved me and having been around the world work with former Hindus, Muslims, all these were Jesus revealed himself as over these other gods or deities or powers and then I see the history of Scripture being a Jew to that factors in you know that the whole enigma of the Jew, and even that inability explained Jewish history with without God in a certain way. As difficult as it is that all points back to the Scripture. So last last question by the wet. I emailed you my phone number so we can we can freely interact with black limitations this but in if you can answer this in two minutes or less and being consistent with your current mentality and mindset. Is there any purpose, meaning, destiny of any kind in life or is it basically all random and that whatever you make it to be and that's it. Have probably outside of security of knowing what's coming in the afterlife.

This is probably the other thing that I struggle with more than anything inside bike.

I would say no and nothing more than what I create and I think because of that, what what probably bothers me the most about this is that because I can't know for certain that any of these things. In my opinion doesn't seem like I can know anything for certain that what if I'm wrong that's the question that always creeps up. And if that's the case in my my robbing my children of this of this purpose in my robbing my children of this in a future hope and you know I guess what I would say is, given what I believe given the faith that I had in knowing the God that I served, if in fact these things are true. I think God is perfectly capable of sidestepping me and and providing for my family in a way that in a way 80 in spite of me. I suppose, but it that doesn't alleviate the emptiness. I guess though I struggle with. To be candid, just not have a bit of a hard time here if if something starts to spark in your heart again. I no part of this was intellectual but then it's been emotional and that time he prayed he felt the Holy Spirit wasn't there and it continued that sense of absence or if something begins to spark in your heart until it totally privately on amazing public.

I look but even if the tell your wife, but if something just a ray of hope Sunday had to spark or are you willing to this race. It's like a little iconic could be.

Is it this is possibly the some people will get hurt again and I I don't want to deceive myself and so they have all these walls up which I can understand but if something that'll pull something that that that something that would relate to God begin to rise up and you are are you willing to allow hope of the possibility of God being real to rise up in your life again. No doubt, only willing to I hope that happens I cannot wonderful unitless Essentia has God failed you the book that I wrote you not to read anything in it that you don't know having her insert level but I wrote it I didn't write it.

Thinking of you, but I would've for people exactly like you that have lost their faith, but with love to come back, but refused to deceive themselves or create some kind of you know, comforting reality and you know Josh when when you openly shared movingly about the pain of the loss of your your newborn little over year ago you for your and Megan. I looked up after the segment at at two young men that produce the show cross through the glass of the other side of the window here and it so happened that the director of our ministry. Cindy was standing there and I was with her and her husband, right after they lost their 13-year-old son an absolute freak accident to a wonderful godly boys. He was the under 13. An absolute for a me a complete freak accident, but under the oversight of a safety freak it. It safety fanatic. It and I flew up to be with. I pray that God would raise their child from the Army one for the ruin. You have Chris didn't happen, but I remember at the wake that Cynthia husband Gary to post on our team, comforting the people coming to comfort them and I remember look at that saying this is absolutely unreal and and I looked up and she was smiling at me right after that knowing knowing the hope of eternal life. So so Josh, thanks for coming on. We are amazingly out of time, but I really I really do care from his friend that I know you have that sense of friendship towards me both our hearts and I'm really praying Josh even today. Again, not to put a suggestion in your mind.

Even today, the spark of faith rise. This pray for Josh another program powered by the Truth Network