From the Depths of Depression into God's Hope and Light

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. So what happens when the depression is so deep you can't see your way out for the light a fire with your host scholar and cultural, greater Dr. Michael Brown your voice more and spiritual clarity reports truths to get on the line of fire and now there's your host Dr. Michael Brown TODAY on the line of fire not talking about what's happening in the culture around us talk about what's happening in the political world talking about human emotions about hopelessness, depression about going through the dark night of the soul. This is Michael Brown. Welcome to the long far will we serve as your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. The bottom of the hour. I'll be speaking with my guest, Dr. Marcia Wrona, author of a new book which tells a lot of his own story. He's a pastor he's a scholar. They went through a scree year period of deep depression. What you do in the midst of that I've never gone through that what you do when you can't see your way out to give me a number to call if you yourself have dealt with depression and you come out on the other side. How that happened over some of the keys.

What would you tell someone who is in deep depression today, 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH 784 or if your counselor or you do a lot of counseling as a pastor and you help people navigate through a season of depression or habitual depression where the keys what has been helpful. I've gone through protracted trials. In other words, months and months of intense spiritual battle and attack.

It feels like every day it's a battle to just get up and go about your business and for me, doing ministry.

I remember season where I can pray several hours just to go to get my head above water to it to feel normal thing to get ready to minister a but I've never been through real depression. Three people described it to me you can't see your way out I were talking to one man. He was the father of one of my friends and I told him there's light he could see was ease of the tunnel is a train coming towards him that in the midst of real depression as it's been described to me that that when someone tells you that you can make it.

It's okay when this together.

You're not alone, that what they're saying doesn't really connect with you.

It's almost like they're speaking another language that the content does not deliver because of the state of depression. The trip years ago when I was reading about a self diagnosed depression and people been committing suicide and debating the issue with her should be legalized.

Suicide and things like that. The argument was that what we are self diagnosing and sucking the accurate when you when you're self diagnosing records. See yourself the way you need to and come to an accurate conclusion because in the midst of your depression in the midst of your hopelessness. It might seem like there's no way out now it took to be absolutely handed here many times in the church we struggle with approaching mental illness.

Is there such a thing as mental illness is in all spiritual is. It is at all demonic is just a matter of willpower believing the word many times we treat mental illness totally differently than physical illness.

In other words, if if playing sports I get injured and and brought over to the doctors yet you you fractured your wrist. Okay look on the x-ray.

There it is, is we have now meet with him to do surgery, but you have to put in a cast reprint okay that's a deal, but when you're dealing with quote mental illness. It's it's it's much more questionable words, is there actually something wrong with your brain. The brain is not functioning properly. There some type of chemical imbalance or that you have some type of sickness that is affecting your brain or or overall in your body or some type of chemical imbalance because of which are not thinking rationally. You're not thinking logically. I remember as a boy. See see my aunt begin to act irrationally. Was he a brain tumor.

Tragically, it wasn't diagnosed until way too late in the surgery was not successful. She passed away, but is that you think what happened. She never acted like that before. There something that was actually going on, but you can always see it or diagnose it may be, it is demonic.

Maybe it's not a physical issue a chemical issue.

Maybe this demonic attack is different than the fracture of Iran which you can look at circulars the fracture. I know I smashed into that wall and I fell over and here's the fracture. You can see it right. This is different. You get a blood test all your deficient here. Okay you can see that and adjusted adjuster diet or lifestyle or take some medicine, but with quote mental illness.

It's the lot were difficult and I'm not speaking as a mental health professional or as a professional counselor speak is someone just understands these basic things that basic common knowledge. I would say right and then because the Bible doesn't specifically say if you ever fractured wrist just confess your healing and the wrist will be healed.

It doesn't specifically said of the promises about healing but doesn't specifically say that, but we are told to rejoice in the Lord. That's an emotional thing right. We we are told with the weeks Armstrong so many times when it comes to mental illness. The attitude is I just have to believe more just have to pray more, just after rebuke the devil. I just have to determine through drawers and sometimes we do and sometimes that's how something breaks that that by God's grace make this determination on the rejoice, no matter what you praise God. The matter what.

In fact, by inactive or will we can praise God no matter what, even if it doesn't immediately pull is that a depression we can we can choose to praise God by what going through you communicate paints a God earlier is better predictors are good anyway but again many times in the church we don't know how to handle these things when it comes to mental almost or to a deep emotional rut that were in and we have often a real missed trust for the larger psychological, psychological, psychiatric profession, because much of it is mixed with Freudian analysis and worldly viewpoints and does not factor in the reality that we are spirit and mind and body. So how do we navigate this. How do we help people who are struggling want to go to the phones will not open up the discussion 866-34-TRUTH I do want to give a couple thoughts of my own, not as a professional was a minister of the gospel that is a professional mental here mental health care specialists and then our guest actually is number of advanced degrees that interface with the subject of his three struggles and and and he loves the Lord and he loves the word so we get a holistic perspective. Let's excuse Seesmic but start with Paul in Richmond, Virginia. Walking to the line of fire. Thank you. You will know you're quite aware that the very very complex subject matter all" about two thirds of a banquet. People get involved in what's called mental health turns into a mental illness and have consulted with a number of people over the years Dr. Paula Kaplan the food was actually on the board of the 1.01 of the writings of the Deerfield and have consulted with Daniel Mackler.your Ruby, who wrote a book smoke and mirrors how you will be told about the mental illness and insider warning to consumers and Dr. David Healy who wrote the shipwreck of the singular healthcare is cast away so as people watch television nowadays in America.

They'll see a bombardment of pharmaceutical commercial and I think these pharmaceuticals can be helpful, possibly short-term, but I think what happens a lot of that people get involved or are there to hold that there's help and may inefficiently I'm trying to be careful what I say but they did in the place sucked into the mental health system, which of them illness and a psychiatrist who spent 15 minutes with them and say okay with tactile Prozac lifted you up in the which are very bad and Robert Whitaker covers all this in his book, anatomy of an epidemic and how the disability rights have gone through the roof since 1987 when the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors were first approved Prozac Upjohn have lied about for Mac and Dr. Peter Breggin is written many books on this Dr. Peter Bragg and his book called the conscience of psychiatry and so psychiatry has caused a lot of problems and a lot of pain and misery, and the I do think people need to be very careful when they get involved in the what's called mental health system because again to me. The system of illness that make it and they get put on these various pharmaceuticals MPN going back to call about you. I hate the kind of bring that in there but one of these two young boys committed this act was taking Luvox and so a lot of these mass shootings.

The one in Colorado several years ago and I might thing that everybody takes a bike. August is going to go out and commit a mass shooting but you say that that people would be medicated and often to the detriment rather than looking at what's really happening in the wise root causes and trying to find practical ways to help get them whole, as opposed to medicating them and then potentially putting them either in life, dependence on medication or worse situation. It's basically what you're saying in your specifically pointed to psychiatry because a psychiatrist can recommend medicines where's the psychologist is going to protrude differently. Hey Paul, we got a break here, but thanks for sounding the alarm. There and he gave a bunch of references. Check out the references. I'm not expert here. Check out the references and come to your own conclusions on this is a Paul, thank you for laying in appreciated right that the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown different drive. In some cases clearly overprescribing or just putting a Band-Aid on the deeper issue or potentially creating worse issue. There's a reason there's such a massive spike in kids being medicated these days is a big difference between that and healthy approach. Certain things can be fixed by diet, yet remarkably surface can be fixed by diet.

Many things in fact and it reminds me of this is hearing the the ad for Dr. Stabler or sponsor vitamin mission.com. Be sure to visit their together health supplements in the special discount you get as a listener to the bonfire broadcast but putting healthy supplements in your body and eating and living in a healthy way fixes a lot of things, including even depression and struggles like that for many, that sometimes it's the unhealthy things were putting in our body the drag us down. Not only so, I also believe the Bible is true in biblical principles will always work in other. In other words, that whether this person has a spiritual issue an emotional issue a dietary issue a physical issue.

The Bible addresses those things and gives us wisdom and how to approach them, but often we are overly simplistic. Often we make something complex to simple. Often we make someone feel bad for something that is absolutely not their fault, which then only adds to the problem and and you feel free 866-34-TRUTH in the back of the phones in a moment, would you feel free do you feel free it in a time of real deep struggle.

I'm not just talking about hey, I'm really under spiritual attack on any prayer but actually going through depression which you feel free to share that with friends and church would you feel free if you were a leader open up to leaders and say hey this is this is going on in my life. Just wondering because certain things.

Hey, it's not my fault under attack or some my fault physically sick. But when it comes to our mental, emotional state. Sometimes we feel above I say anything. I'm confessing that I'm weak when integrating environment where people feel safe thing about the struggles getting help 866-34-TRUTH, let's go to Andrew in Maryland welcomes Alana fire Dr. Brown Dr. Brown I like to weigh in on the topic. You don't mind please your well, my story because I actually struggle with anxiety and depression. It would nine years ago and I would in college I walked out a lot walked off like I got kicked out of you call college majors of my choice because I didn't make the grade a lot of Christian actually went great delete and start embracing that that wasn't the goal I and import and I did struggle with unwanted sexual book and I got tell you I went to the boat. Major depression portals but three reasons and when I should've withdrawn from a course like open a specular college at the time or your college like I didn't withdraw because I didn't want my parents to think I was giving up though unfortunately to my own detriment. With the court. Five mean not being in good the court mental shape and I ended up being on academic probation and parole auto and all and wonder things that actually got me through what actually was actually going to the gym for the first for the first time in actually improving my eating to where I've actually gone out and I and & fight graduate college. I actually became more involved in a local church in the local church and have been listening to Christian vodka like open hope for the harp, with June Holland and new life with Arterburn and something quite difficult and even listening to your show so a lot of things have help me a lot like I may still struggle with the bank diet. With a little bit of anxiety and depression. Colby did not help at all with duck struggle.

By the way, but at least now I know that things are pretty good in terms of how I can get good help nowadays for some so glad that you come through that that you can share things that you could be so candid about this and interesting. So getting your body in better shape working out and then change your diet was was a source of relief is as well.

Let me ask the miss one thing quickly.

Obviously there's a long answer you can give but but in short, when you were in your worst moments were you devoid of hope. Did you think I'll never get out of this job outlook expert, being being somewhere in the great burger and like I didn't and I mentally thought I would go up that way and animate fortunate we didn't have.

Fortunately, that was the case important.

My man fortunately unfortunately my mental state was the ugly: there got it. Got it. Thank God for his grace and this would you say that the behind the scenes may be unknown to you that that God was carrying you through this and that. That's how you you made it or was there any key people that that stood out as encouraging you through through the dark time or conduct kind of coming through it and did it bring you great and I did on an uncle, uncle figure who kind of Detroit but unfortunately got cut you where you cut your hair if you got it right yet so so interest, thank you for sharing that and I believe you given hope to some people say less RAM right now.

God has left you friend your darkest moment. Here's child has left you and if you want. You destroyed in your leg bad it would happen a long time ago. The other thing is if you know someone struggling to be there for the say ham here. You never know what would differ so my thank you Andrew for weighing in.

Let's go to Nikki in Portland, Oregon welcomes Alana fire, go ahead. Please import market.

Yeah yeah ASAP for major depression actually recently I have bipolar work out actually incorrectly now depression like about one time in treatment laying there in your higher power. All the firepower stuff and I believe in God. I remember it currently include hand holding me back with me. What felt like God behind me and I didn't believe in God, whatever you want to find out when he gave me a lot of the physical didn't take away a great intake without national income to let my craft market. We could go my character in the white and I always remember looking back, that he would bear and pronounce my client is going through what I'm going through now is really anything banal and fair in the font are so helpful for that but where I count. In addition, she prayer and the fellowship and worship is going to get biblical counseling like bounce part that we get any medication. I believe that if part that we can't know our world driven world.

I should be in diet and exercise spell that right now. I'm grateful that you're getting Shelby.

What I find in the church is that it kinda like you could talk about it and I believe I have been using update. You will be healed and sometimes we have to lock off. I got it so after that I have to share. Today, professional, and through it.

Thanks, thanks for calling and taking the time we got one minute before the break them.

I guess the commercial name in his book on the edge of hope, no matter how dark the night, the redeem soul still sings so Nikki if you could just talk to those struggling with depression now for one minute. Would you say to them if they believe or not, will just say your your rock rocket not not lack there find other people you can share with and warship or sector living God out Aflac and and you as far as being a professional. What would you do right now. American Kenly therapy. Now I'm working out family, I may the Lord use you in the he bring you to a place where depression is a thing of the past that you grow in grace and you come out of that and can help so many others that that struggle. Appreciate the call and appreciate all that you do right we come back.

My guest Dr. Marsha Rona Pastor Mark Sharon a dear friend and a man who's slated out on until about a raw, honest memoir again the name of the book on the edge of hope matter how dark the night, the redeemed soul still sings you have an eye opening interview with for you that with you before you on the other side of the break, stay right here is the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown got on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Have you ever found out something about a person that was shocking that as you knew them while you friends or colleagues, coworkers, they were going through a hellish season and you had no idea about it until afterwards. Or maybe you knew a little bit but you know the depths of it. Sometimes it shocking to get the whole story and pastor Marsha Rona, who's been in ministry for decades. Who's the scholar and who was a man who believes in the power of God to set the captives free. He shares his own story now in book title on the edge of hope, no matter how dark the night, the redeem soul still sings a mark welcomes Alana fire great being here, so let me ask first before we get any details why did you decide to write this book a minute, it's wrong. It's vulnerable what you do it at my quick great question. You know, I wrestled and obviously that the period of time that I wrote about place from 2007 2010 1/2 and I think it took me this long because I think it took me a while to process it all and could feel secure enough and strong enough to be able to tell the story for the sake of others. So when I had been sharing a bit about it at a meeting at one of the agents from Baker with their chosen and they said no Mark, would you be willing to write the book on this and and while I said yes. I fitted with a little bit of vegetation in my voice because I had to revisit the journey in order to do that. So there were some painful places I had to go and I think there was an unconscious awareness that if I ever were to tell the story. I have to go back and revisit something we prefer to try to forget yeah so I finally felt like God was saying it was time and there were people that were hurting and it might be an appropriate time to be self disclosing for their sake so smart it is for us in your professional academic career GME degrees when I begin the studies that tie in with the, the question of human psychology that you and pastor and the strength of other scholarship you double the what what interfaces with that. Yeah I was I was 43 credits away from my PhD in psychology when I hit that perfect storm that is part of the story of the book utterance so so you've counseled many people over the years as a pastor it you were you are doing advanced degrees in psychology and now you find yourself in this dark night of the soul. Hey, what if you just pull yourself out of it, man. Come on man just sent out why.

Why doesn't that work and if Michael you weekly book or each other really well and we know the body of Christ, really well. So you already know that I heard that from a lot of people it with the obvious question if it not a whole lot different than Jesus in his hometown thing no doubt you would quote this proverb vision electoral I think the irony of of our humanness is that we really can't help ourselves that God calls us to be other oriented. And even if we have all the logical rational reasonable answers when we're going through what we go through we lose our sense of perspective and other people after mirror back to the love of God so that we can regain our footing in our ground.

They can be able to move forward.

So we need one another and I think that lesson taught that that season taught me a level of meeting others in a way that perhaps no other season but liked it.

So before we talk about coming through this coming out of it can friends the name of the book on the edge of hope paints a picture of what you're going through what life was like during the screen happier. And whether you were still functioning professionally.

Ministry was a during the season what it look like and feel like okay so up until that while I mean even through that moment. I mean I was in a Michael both of you and I work wherever an atmosphere of renewal refreshing revival were both passionate about the move of God.

I was by Gail with great blowing and going. I you know between by appearances on television and I travel around the world and around the nation meetings every week of the month traveling here there and everywhere and you know almost with an endless, all on that deposit in your life when when you feel like you've got something that God has given you to share with others and that was all you know that was a way of life and I fight I didn't feel if I had seen the bus coming. I got out of the way but there were a number of them to that led to a perfect storm and I don't talk about all of them in the book for the sake of privacy, but one of them of them was we we were in the middle of a major building acquisition and we went from a $7000 a month mortgage to a $70,000 a month first mortgage and $50,000 a month below and I had I had. We had a few thousand people, but one we relocated the majority of those people decided not to come and I was down to 400 adult and the stress of that financial pressure began to build over that next few months. We got in the building. In December 2006 I felt the weight of that financial stress, mind you I you know II thought. I was pretty confident about my ability to to encourage people to given the steward that kind of a building project that you know I was on TBN.

I was II help them raise money for the gospel around the world and the title pretty confident but when when bad anxiety. It it was intense and then within that you know we went through season with our younger son that led to effect the whole family and edit about it about did me in, and it lasted for a long time and the stress of that, plus the stress of the fire put a weight on me that I had ever experienced in my life and it crushed me. It literally crushed so some more. What's the difference between going through a hard time battle and suffering from real depression. What's the difference.

Oh gosh, I I've been through season that my journey before we both have we both had our share of spiritual warfare. But this and Anna. Anna edit season in my life when when I was going through major transition.

I remember feeling disoriented and this daring but but honestly Michael when when Paul says to the church at Corinth in second Corinthians that he didn't want them to be unaware of the struggle he went through that when he was on his way. That in Asia he was excessively burden to the point of despairing of life that the sentence of death had been passed in him that he shouldn't trust in himself, but God who raises the dead eye. I know what that's like now.

I also know what it's like when Job says the thing that I greatly fear has come upon me. We have so misinterpreted that text in your your your Jewish so you know that the Hebrew ways of looking at wisdom literature are different than the American way of saying this, but if that is their level and but between the thing that I greatly fear the way it's understood Hebraic lady at the way it's understood in wisdom literature and the despairing of life. They both came together with 1/4 had to be reckoned with. And ironically Michael you and you met Vinnie Manzo at Issachar but Benny was one of my best friends and I dedicated the book to many just passed away last week, so he never got the copy of the book, but he walked me he walked me through that season, and if it weren't for him. I'm not sure.

So this went on for 3 1/2 days, weeks or months but 3 1/2 years here yet.

There was a long, long dark so did you have breakthroughs. Everything seemed normal and you thought a matter this undone and so bad I wasn't start the whole time. It was the entire time and sleeplessness with chronic and I was seeing I had to also see a therapist and in the medical doctors and they tried me on different various medications, most of which gave me problems and it was that there were challenges all the way around. But I'm grateful for Jesus, and I'm grateful for the enduring love of God and for that the key voices in my life that kept reminding me of who I was and that this was season and not a life sentence. During this time was God to you and how real was he to you. You know it was it was a season where it felt like God had totally abandoned me. I knew God was there but it was as if the one who I had so thought I knew well. Went radio silent. I could sense the presence but I had no sense of a living word to run with. I had to rely on Vinnie and some caring others just to remind me of what God had said, and in August I buy I went to Scripture you know one of the verses that that became a lie first for me was Deuteronomy 33 in a beer in the eternal God, 26, 27, the eternal God is our dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms that didn't matter how far I felt like I fell, but the father's arm, the son of the spirit undergirded me and caught me up and sustain me. There were times I didn't realize I was being sustained.

There were times I thought I was going to lose it, and yet, in moments when I thought I was going to lose it. There was just this clarity that would remind me I gotta just keep going and you know, at the same time Michael. I even know I've made my living on the road.

I've not taken a salary from the church and never have the last few years the church has begun to give me something but so I had to still function while I was unable to function and generate income to take care of what was going on in my family well, but David Bailey builds the daily chores. Plus I have to continue to preach and sustain mellow so I was clear that every world friends on the edge of the house on the night you sold still sings juggling more out of this movie say to those in the midst of it. Take a line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown got on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown place can also be your threshold step through it when God is there with you in healing can happen right in the middle of your chaos. The book on the edge of hope. So Mark, how is it that the Lord brought you out of this 3 1/2 year dark night of the soul.

Well, it wasn't 0123 sort of solution. It was the gradual learning how to cope with anxiety and learning how to cook the old the oppression and learning how to cope with the depression. There were many things I had to learn about negative emotions of collective thoughts.

You know that the I had to really get it free from magical thinking that if I just can the word. It'll go away. I can, I thankfully think there's a place for confession docket a long magical thinking is not the way through some of the kind of afflicted internal realities that was facing. It only happened one step at one day at a time. I had to live in day type compartment. I had enough grace to manage one day at a time.

Looking back, it was 1800 and some odd days 78 days or something like that. But I knew them.

Each is one long day at a and many of those nights were sleepless nights know how I made it through was was really one step at a time. I: it was difficult.

I don't I wouldn't. I don't want felt so good because it was it was pretty painful but I think I I think I I realized somewhere in the journey that the more I thought it the more power I gave it and I had to learn to accept the spirit to some things that are negative in life that if we embrace the reality that it hurts, it loses its power, and that took me a while because I was pretty determined. I was gonna lick the thing right and I had to learn it was a different way through this.

What what about demonic factors and deliverance from demons. This is that in the category of magic. Also, what is the fit know I think the demonic is real and the demonic cat be fair and certainly when the demonic was there I had to address it. It was in the fifth nine. I'm familiar with deliverance.

This wasn't a matter of me needing to be delivered. This was a matter of my soul was I was I was battling deep anguish and and sadness and grief and anxiety, and the enemy takes advantage of that.

He comes at us when were down and so I had to. On the one hand you know the deal with the spiritual warfare which was exhausting in and of itself because it was relentless and at the same time deal with the anxiety and the depression so it was it was a pretty intense reality. So I'm I'm not denying either. Did I mention I'm saying both with a double whammy that was taught it many times we are way too simplistic. It's either or. And yeah, whatever help the less you know is God uses me a particular way let's get to fix it for everybody in the and then that only drives things deeper. People may mean well, but it only drives that the hopelessness deeper. So obviously for those that are listening in your same that this is relevant to me or I've got a family member or friend that could really use this so so the book will help. Another was. The book is not 3 1/2 years dark night of the soul and and then the last page I came out of it and you got the journey through the midst of it in the journey out by God's grace, there is hope. Throughout it. In short, now if you were talking to someone that's that's watching or listening to the broadcast was even read your book and there they just don't see any way out that the they can even see the dawn on the edge of hope in their believers, their children of God, what would you say to them, number one, we are loved by God, nothing will separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. The triune God is a God of love and he will always be loyal whether I understand the sufferings I'm going through or not does not change who God is.

God is not the author of evil.

God didn't will that I go through this thing in God didn't determine that I had to suffer these thinking of some of the sufferings. Michael that we go through the genuine sufferings of Christ. Some of the sufferings we go through other result both of our brokenness and are areas where our cognitions are not as clear as they need to be and so it's not always easy to sort, although sadly the way of suffering and we have to deal with it but we have to know or love.

That's number one number two. We can't run away from negative thoughts and negative feelings.

The only way out is through an I thought if I if I accepted those thoughts. I was accepting defeat and I had to realize there's a difference between accepting those negative thoughts and feelings and resigning myself to them, and when I realized I had to accept the pain without resigning myself to it. I got in touch with that deeper core that was in Berkshire owner from the day he was saved that God had ordained my life for his purpose and his glory. And when I lose it when I chose to stay in that core plate, come hell or high water. I resolved I would go through for the sake of Jesus for the sake of my wife and my kids for the sake of the people I love it.

The local church of the sake of the body of Christ, and more. A lot of the gospel is preached in America is very superficial because often we don't have suffering attached to it with them. I have a theology of suffering is not often a cost to pay for following Jesus. As is common in other countries were persecution is very real. Do you think with that that we have presented a false picture of what it means to be born again walk with the Lord a false picture of the gospel and that contributes to our problems because were not expecting difficulty.

Oh gosh Michael you you and I could talk about the flowers and affect what you and I need to do a podcast where where where I interview you on this because I think this is such an important topic.

Anyone Paul one pulse of the sufferings of Christ. They talk about the spirit of glory and the spirit of suffering go together somehow where we lost our way. I think was we got so embroiled in.

I want to be very careful how I say this because look, we both are involved in media.

We both love the fact that God has great vest with the ability to touch a lot of people.

I'm grateful to God for every opt. I'm grateful for all the men and women of God that is poured into my life. The challenge I think in the American culture is that we become a celebrity culture and there's this driven this to 15 minutes of fame which is very short-lived and with that, there is this syndrome that comes that you think you're in earlier to the human condition and suffering. When God never promises that will benefit many are the afflictions of the righteous but the Lord delivers him from the mall and I do think right now Michael and I trust you agree with me that if revival is gonna come. If not, when the roof is going to blow up. It's going to win the bottom falls out. Woe is me. I am undone, for I am a man of I know that's not popular confessed that Isaiah confessed that Peter falls down and in the boat up and at the feet of Jesus apart from me.

I'm a sent for managing the worry were going to start catching people, but there's something about a broken and contrite spirit that I think is essential to the move of the Spirit and that brokenness is that place where were willing to allow the pains of the human condition to touch us at our core battle. I don't get any other way around.

That youngster stood close from Samuel Chadwick who was the teacher wanted graven health. One of my books that I was quoting another book and he said the church always fails at the point of self-confidence and there is that aspect like you quoted from second Corinthians 1 pulse and we felt the sentence of death was we wouldn't trust in ourselves, but in God raises us from the dead and and so out of this hellish season that you went through good has come out of it right and and has brought you more into the character of Jesus, which is the ultimate goal that God has for our lives. Yeah Eileen and you know, there would've been a day where people came up to me and said they were battling anxiety. I would've quoted a few Bible verses and great I can't do that anymore life.

I feel their pain now and I have a whole different approach as I understand how anxiety works and simply quoting Paul or Jesus on anxiety without going into the depths of what Paul is saying about the nature of anxiety and the nature of what supplication this which requires bringing those deep pains to speech and owning what's behind the prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, which is not always easy when you go to that hellish place saying thank you to God in the midst of that.

In spite of that, that's that. So yeah I'm I'm I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But wouldn't trade where I am now for the world because I'm so in love with Jesus side.

I love Jesus more today than I've ever loved them before, and that's the reality of God's redemption you hope to never go through something like that that you realize you would be how you were without friends or the new book just out today on the edge of hope, the matter how dark the night, redeem soul still sings a book that very few people could write because the depth of the story is something that some never come out of so thank God were in the midst of hope in the midst of the reality of God's redemption. This will commence to you and Mark you tell me when I will do that podcast. God bless and have found that I think I love you much like love each is less. Another program by the Truth Network