Have the Gifts of the Spirit Ceased? A Debate

The following is a prerecorded program. The gifts of the spirit spoke of the New Testament ceased. Join us for a special debate for the line of fire with your host activist all the international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael grow your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown was the director of the coalition of conscience, president of fire school of Ministry of the wider fire valve by going 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH your job is Dr. Michael Brown friends of Michael Brown here. We did this couple months back. Got a great response to it.

So what we're doing again as were in the Christmas new year time of the year. Taking a few broadcasts this week on the line of fire. Taking tinted into some classic debates on different subjects that I've had over the years.

This one was not done in person. My face-to-face it was Don live via Internet fact that James White was the moderator and I'd say I gladly debate someone on the gifts of the spirit are the four today can speak of spring counts on that a lot and Prof. Sam Waldron my didn't know before the step forward and said he would gladly do it so this is the debate that we had all of the exact date in front of me but in the description on YouTube and on the Esther to Brown channel of we've got a link we can watch the whole debate, but we can give you substantial excerpts of substantial parts of my opening presentation. Substantial parts of his opening presentation of our rebuttals and then basically are closing remarks in full. So without further ado I went first throughout. So here we go.

The gifts of the spirit ceased. I will thank you so much James Sam for doing this tonight and thanks for everyone who is helped to put this together. I want to say right from the start.

This is an in-house in family debate.

In light of all the crisis in the world so much that's wrong in our society. We stand united in Jesus and I hope that shines forth in everything we say and I'm quite sure if I got to know Sam better over period of years there be a whole lot that I could learn from him instance of the framework for this debate. I want to see plainly that this is a soul script or issue to me what the Scripture say I am charismatic I believe in the gifts and power of the spirit New Testament cars Medicus beeper today because I am so screwed tour for me.

This is a matter of letting the word be central and authoritative, and if I'm to accept the witness of the word and let the witness to the word essential authoritative cannot be a secessionist. I will say plainly that there is overwhelming explicit New Testament evidence for the continuation of the gifts and no explicit New Testament evidence against it up. Prof. Thomas Schreiner, New Testament scholar and himself a secessionist actually says nowhere does the New Testament clearly teach that supernatural gifts of ceased reformed pastor Dr. John Carpenter says he responsible secessionist will concede the Bible doesn't teach sensationalism.

Scripture has no explicit secessionist statement so if I believe the sufficiency of Scripture. How can I use it to defend something it doesn't teach explicitly if the word of God promises something or even command something on what scriptural basis can I negate this or ignore it. So let's start with the ministry of Jesus, for whom healing miracles exorcism played a central role. This was part of his foundational ministry.

Matthew 423 he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and a reflection on the people we see elsewhere, Mark six, Matthew 10, Luke nine and 10 in other passages that proclaiming the kingdom, and healing the sick went hand in hand. In other words, these miracles were not just in personal acts of power announcing the in breaking of the messianic kingdom like like trumpets announcing the approach of royalty.

They were signs. Many indicators of the in breaking of the messianic kingdom. This is what happens when the rule of God arrives and since the messianic kingdom did not leave the earth when Jesus ascended to heaven where does the Bible say it did is no reason we should not expect to see the continuance of these miracles is the kingdom of God spreads around the earth. There is culminating with its full manifestation.

When Jesus returns. So we understand that there are unique elements to the miracles of Jesus will affirm that establishment was but we also know that some of the miracles he constantly pointed to her because of the in breaking of the kingdom of God.

Satan being driven out healing coming deliverance coming because that's what happens when the light shines in the darkness.

That's why Jesus constantly pointed to his miracles to confirm his messianic identity, but he refused to perform abstract acts of power, nor did he say look I was walking on the water. I must be the Messiah. Now we know that after the resurrection of Jesus. The gospel of the kingdom was preached. Acts 8X 20 X 28. That's how it ends.

Talk about Paul preaching the good news of the kingdom and Paul speaks of the kingdom of God in the present tense here and now. First Corinthians 420 the kingdom of God is not a matter of words only, but of power. Romans 1417 the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit which the point we are looking for the full manifestation of the kingdom. We pray your kingdom come. We are awaiting inheriting the kingdom of God, but the kingdom of God has also broken in the earth and with that come miracles of healing and deliverance. That's what happens when the reign of God touches areas were Satan has dominated destroyed laws also the healings of Jesus reflect the will of God.

Throughout John's Gospel. He said he could only do what he saw the father doing at any said if you've seen me, you seen the father we can learn much about who the father is by looking at Jesus John 118, famously and literally says in the Greek that the sans exegete. It the father of Jesus go around making people sick or making them well when we go to minister to the sick, not to condemn those who were sick not to say your lacking faith. If you're sick, we recognize some of the godless people in the world are handicap recognize that many people grow through sickness and disease, but in terms simply of the will of God in expectation because we always want to lineup with the will of God on our own thinking.

The question is what would Jesus do, what is the father's will we see explicitly reflected in the New Testament and in fact it builds on and confirms that which came before. Also the feelings of Jesus often the result of divine compassion. For example, Matthew 1414 tells us that he had compassion on the sick and healed them well. If Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. If his healings reflected the will of the father will see continuing evidence for this in the New Testament if they are reflection of the compassion of God. Can we simply say they were signs to confirm his messianic identity. I had one theologian was tell me these showed who Jesus was, but who Jesus was, in terms of his essential nature is who he is, can we continue to look to God with expectation that out of compassion and mercy. He will heal the sick and if not, where does the word tell us that again Sola Scrip Torah is to me is not a matter of philosophy or some type of abstract theological deduction.

This is a matter of the explicit testimony of the work. Also, in the words of Jesus himself. John 1412 is programmatic and universal. Whoever believes in me, Jesus says words refining and say John 635 738 1125 1244 1246. These are universal promises or believes in me will never hunger or believes it in in me. The father will testify on his behalf. These are universal types of promises Jesus as whoever believes in me works I do will he do also and greater works than these will you because I go to the father and therefore will send the spirit we see some of the greater works already in the book of acts with mass conversions and things like that taking place now if we look in the immediate previous verses we see the work she's talking about are the miraculous deeds that he was performing and what is Peter say in acts 238, 39 to the repentant Jewish crowd that they will receive forgiveness of sins in Jesus and the gift of the spirit for the promises to you and your children and all that are far off even as many as the Lord our God will call which harks back to Isaiah 5929 the promise of the Spirit to the succeeding generations of Israel here given to those who put their trust in Jesus. This is the foundation important text because it makes clear that the prophetic gift is not just apostolic, not just for a few prophets, but now poured out on all believers and it is for the period of the last days and it is to you and your children and all who are far off everything else in the rest of the New Testament affirms this nothing contradicts it. In acts four 2930 the apostles pray Lord look upon their threats. Grant your servants to continue to speaker with all boldness, will you stretch out your hand to heal and signs and wonders to perform to the name of your holy servant Jesus. Why was at an acceptable prayer now but we pray prayers like that today were told that it's not a carnival sideshow and a distraction from the gospel know the signs and wonders continue to point to Jesus is we come to the epistles we see in first Corinthians 17. Paul commends the Corinthians, you're not lacking any gift as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The New Testament knows of no concept whereby new canon of Scripture will be completed afterwards will be a long gap before Jesus returns in Prof. Schreiner notes that a good case for the continuation of the gifts until Jesus second coming can be made from first Corinthians 13 8 to 12 when Paul lays out the gifts of the spirit enforcement since 12 seven through 12.

He does not have separate categories of revelatory gifts aces.

These are for the common good and they are not explicitly attached to the apostles in any way, shape, size or form and then he says at the end of restricting 12 now you are the body of Christ, and individually members of it. God is appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, their teachers than miracles negative healing, helping, administrating various kinds of tongues. These are all interwoven. Even if you try to separate apostles and prophets, you have teachers, miracles, gifts of healing help in administering various kinds of tongues.

This is part of the very fabric of the body and then when he gets to the end of his discussion of the 14th chapter and says earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. That is an explicit command on what scriptural basis to someone today forbid speaking tongues also don't forbid it. Is it earnestly desired, prophesy on what scriptural basis is that overturned.

Frankly, there is none. First Thessalonians 5. Do not quench the Spirit and not the despise prophecies protest everything hold fast what is good. Where has that been overturned in Scripture, it never has. It is an explicit command we throw one verse would have to start throwing out others and in James 533-5013 through 15. Praying for the second phase should be a normal part of congregational life. This is for the elders does not require special gift of healing over the pray in faith. There has to be confidence of the will of God to heal and it's in the same context as anyone of you suffering that and pray. Is anyone cheerful and sing praise with you and eliminate the call to pray for the sick as a regular thing with expectation for healing.

You have to throw out the other verses as well. The fact is that if we were Roman Catholic and believed in the authority of ongoing church tradition of we were Mormons and had another alleged holy book. We can have an excuse to override the explicit testimony of Scripture. But since we are Sola Scrip Torah believers, we have no alternative but to accept the clear, consistent, and never contradicted witness of the word and expect the continuation of the New Testament. Charismatic gifts until Jesus returns the entire testimony of the New Testament goes in this direction.

There is nothing explicitly that contradicts it. There are explicit commands to pursue these things for the glory of God the good of a dying world. And the good of the church and is so scriptural people hold to the centrality of Scripture we must be continuation is not all right got interrupt myself when we come back, get to hear from Dr. Sam Waldron in his argument is 20 gifts have seeks, we will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the reminder file now by calling 866-34-TRUTH dear again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks for tuning in. Today we are taking you back into debate Prof. Sam Waldron as he argues that the gifts of the spirit have ceased in an operative today just heard a good segment of my opening comments that we get to a good segment of Prof. Waldron's opening comments here we go. Really appreciate Michael statement one: Dr. Brown good statement and it proves something else that I wanted to say at the outset of God is that one of the reasons I think we need to have this debate is that we need to appreciate that the Medicare spent up Maddox are supernaturals, they take the New Testament seriously and work that they are to be there to be congratulated and we thank God for that. Also want to say that but Michael said nothing about the straightforward conference because I had time to say nothing about it. I've been away on the administrative and have North Korea to review what was that there are so neither want to attack or defend it. The subject have the New Testament charismatic gifts ceased is also one that I I'm very thankful to discuss all I'm glad were discussing God. I think it's the key issue in our day about baptism of the spirit of the second blessing. Those are important issues, but I think this is perhaps most fundamental my argument is is as well. Not that there are no miracles in the world today. I believe that there are miracles in the world today.

My argument is that there are no miraculous gifts. I think there's a clear and common sense distinction between miracles of miraculous gifts of miracles. One time about the gift as a mom going possession of an individual marked by repeated manifestations of that gift. My argument against the continuation of the miraculous gift is called the cascade argument goes like this Col. apostles of Christ on earth the day because there are no apostles of Christ. We may cogently argue that there are no profits on earth the day because there are no profits. There are no tongue speakers and because the remote tongue speakers prophets are apostles of Christ.

Ronald miracle workers amid make several observations about this argument. First of all, sprouted in the assertion, which I hope to prove in a moment, but there are no living apostles of Christ in the world. It assumes as well that apostles of Christ work gift to the church. They were in office, but there were also a gift first Corinthians 1228 to 31 Ephesians 482 11 Christ gait just command among them apostles. This argument also assumes an important distinction between apostles of Christ and apostles of the churches. I am only asserting that apostles of Christ are are no longer alive among us.

I'm not saying that there are no such thing as the day as apostles of the churches or messengers or missionaries of the churches. This argument does not depend on the weather. Those people who will buy dressing up believe that their living apostles of Christ in the world today many charismatics did not believe in living apostles of Christ today, but my argument does not depend on that assertion that their living apostles of Christ.

Rather, it poses a dilemma for charismatic on the one hand, if they agree that there are no living apostles of Christ than they should not be against sensationalism because they actually hold a form of this represents a favorable flaw in their argument if they say there are no living apostles of Christ in the world today than they are admitting that the first and greatest gift of Christ. Give the church no longer exist and that is a form of sensationalism, and I believe that is a loose thread which unravels the entire argument on the other hand, if we believe that there are apostles of Christ in the world today. They are denying a clear and pervasive truth brought the New Testament, which I hope Cheryl what that is the evidence for the cessation of the messianic apostolate or apostles of Christ. Well, it consists responded first of all the marks that they possess apostles of Christ. According to the New Testament have three distinguishing marks. First, they are directly appointed by Christ. Mark three Luke six acts one, two, chosen apostles asked him 41 witnesses whom he had chosen before him. Galatians 11, Paul was an apostle by the will of God. And this is the meaning of that strange account of the use of the lot of the lot was used because no human being is all competent to appoint an apostle of Jesus Christ. Only Christ may appoint his apostles. The second mark of New Testament apostles is that there are physical eyewitnesses of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 122 and 39 first Corinthians by one am I not an apostle.

Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord. Third variable to confirm their apostolate by doing miracles. Many places but check Britain's 1212, especially the signs of the true apostles were done among you as such, these apostles of Christ spoke authoritatively for Jesus Christ. All the things that I write to use as the apostle Paul of first Corinthians 1437 are the commandments of the Lord of the celiac or apostle or someone of a man set the ancient Jews is as the man himself, and this is what the apostles of Christ claims they were as the man himself. They spoke for Jesus Christ authoritatively charismatics may argue that men today possess these characteristics which carry the burden of proof is on them to prove such an argument, and to accept the consequences of such an argument, which is to say that there are men who speak authoritatively for Jesus Christ and infallibly today, but in the second place, and mainly, I argue the cessation of the apostolate of the messianic apostolate of from the New Testament on the basis of five different arguments.

First of all, Ephesians 220 of the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets wishes an allusion to map the 60 night game were peters called the rock of the church and Revelation 2114 or the apostles are said to be the foundation stones of the new Jerusalem.

These passages speak of the apostles as the foundation of the church of Christ. This illustration is that historically and chronologically means that apostles of Christ were confined to the foundational period of church history prescriptive 15 a affirms that Paul all last of all was the last one to see the risen Christ. Last of all he appeared to me, says the apostle Paul. And if that's true in one of the indispensable marks and characteristics of an apostles to have seen with their physical eyes. The risen Christ than Paul was the last one to do so, and there are no living apostles today prescriptive 1231 and 41 direct with Josh that Christians cannot seek the gift of apostle of Christ and positive face prophecy. If James is the greatest gift that made you thought this is what Paul focuses on first Corinthians 14 and that in spite of the fact that is much of the gift of apostle Christ in the preceding context of the fourth argument.

Galatians 27 denying teachers that the Paul received the right hand of fellowship from members of the original 12 apostles. No professed apostle of Christ. The world can receive the imprimatur of the original 12 is folded and then finally, Ephesians 220 states the form of the New Testament Canon as the up as apostles and prophets to the church is built on apostles and prophets. If there were apostles the day the counter would be open as those apostles continued to speak authoritatively for Christ since all but the most extreme charismatics acknowledge that the canon is closed.

This assumes the cessation of the apostolate again, this all poses a dilemma for charismatics on the one hand, they agreed that there are no living apostles of Christ. If they agree with that, then they should not be opposed to sensationalism as they actually hold a form of it. They believe in the cessation of the first and greatest gift given to the church in this represents a fatal flaw in their arguments to loose thread which unravels the entire thing on the other hand, if they believe that there are apostles of Christ in the world today.

They are denying a clear and pervasive truth taught in the New Testament. Also, since the New Testament links the impartation of charismatic gifts to the apostles of Christ. Acts chapter 8.

This just the cessation of the miraculous gifts about how what may go on to say that the this all leads to the conclusion that there are no prophets today, and this argument goes like this.

There are no prophets because will first of all, the cessation of the apostolate creates the presumption at least the possibility that other guests may also cease in spite of what her brother said New Testament prophets were like the apostles of Christ foundational to the church.

Ephesians 220. The New Testament, the prophets were infallible. The definition of a prophet given in Deuteronomy 13 and 18 was never recited and this requires infallibility on the part of prophets about all of this leaves the conclusion that if there are no apostles of gospel prophets in the and therefore no tongue speakers, but there are no more miracle workers today. Again I come back to something that I said earlier I am not deny their miracles today. The kingdom is present and that may be present in their being miracles today, but there is a difference between being believing in miracles and believing in miracle workers. There's a difference between elders play trying all without absolute certainty that their prayers will be answered for the healing of a member of their church and the work of a faith healer. There is a difference between those two things. There's a difference between miracles and miracle workers. Biblical miracles are called scientists eyes are brothers that and what that signifies what that means is that they are seen as a testing the Revelation brought by the miracle worker. This is the cascade argument, no apostles creates the president believes looking the further step that there are no prophets leaves the further step that there are no tongue speakers as last of all, to the idea that there are no miracle workers but does not lead to the conclusion that there are no marigolds or ignore them or that they don't present the world okay run out of time.

Right now we come back going to get into the bottle survivability.his rebuttal to me.

On the other side of the break Carolina five. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown, the voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown (line of fire micro grounds here.

There are some debates that are the soft, fickle nursing debates and see more abstract debates that touches more will relive the question of miraculous gifts of healing still for today is prophecy still for today these things touches more directly, so debate with Prof. Sam Waldron on the gifts of the spirit within there for today or not it's it's a fascinating debate but it's also practical. So we take you now back into this debate really play a good chunk of my rebuttal.

Dr. Waldron and then of his rebuttal to me and then in the final segment will play. Basically our closing statements in full link to watch the entire debate is our YouTube channel with this episode, and Esther Brown.org with this episode yes Sam, thanks so much for the carefully thought out presentation obviously inflicted this and considered it over period of time. So the fact that I will profoundly disagree point by point is is no sign of disrespect in any way because forthright discussion so that we can all learn better and sharpen each other socially. Frankly, there's no dilemma.

There is no loose thread unraveling whatsoever there's no loose thread at all and basically what I heard was a deduction that is not in the text.

In other words you read something into the text that is nowhere said. For example, no were the miracles tied in with apostles over there tied in with the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere are tongues and prophecies tied in with the existence of apostles, the prophets, this is the working of the Spirit in the church you started with an assumption and then read that back into scripture to undermine the consistent and explicit testimony of Scripture. You would've thought that Toyota said no. I want you to really seek to gifts of prophecy, but only for a while. You know I told you you're like you know good gift until Jesus returns. I will encourage you not to forget the speaking tongues.

But when the last of us apostles out of here, you better be sure to forbid it is.

It's either going to be counterfeit or the flesh no such thing was taught and to reiterate points that I made.

The miracles are signs of the kingdom breaking in.

That has not changed the promises like John 1412 have not changed.

And Jesus said that this will happen because he goes to the father and sends the spirit asked to makes explicit. This is now for everyone because this is for the last days were in the last days that continues. Not until the last of the apostles.but until Jesus returns again.

The text is quite explicit on that that tongues, prophecy, knowledge, all in part in this age when will only cease when we see him face to face it. In point of fact, one of the great things that happens now in the New Testament is that anyone can potentially be used by God, not just the apostles.

They had a certain function just like Scripture has a certain function.

We do not add to Scripture today do not have apostles the same as the 12 and in their their names being on on the foundation stones and in in the new city of Jerusalem. We understand that, but we understand also others in the New Testament called apostles and deduct the dock. A written summary in the second century there is message mention made of traveling apostles and traveling prophets is no notion that that now prophecy would cease or had somehow stopped because of that and again to eliminate apostles does not eliminate the ongoing gifts. How can we possibly deduce that from prescriptions. The 12 chapter, and in fact, which was written there in the verses I read earlier say the exact opposite of that notice again with Paul writes now you are the body of Christ, and individually members of it. God is appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, their teachers, then miracles, and gifts of healing help in administering the riskiest cousin tongue so even again. If you eliminate apostles, prophets, you have teachers, then miracles, gifts of healing, helping, administrative and various kinds of tongues at the end the chapter all apostles are all prophets, are all teachers do all work miracles will possess to secure and will speak with tongues to interpret earnestly desire the higher gifts he puts teachers right in that category, along with miracles and the others.

If you eliminate one you have to eliminate the other. Again, as as far as canon of Scripture was arguing with that yes we absolutely agree and and I believe it's is dear to you the authority of Scripture as it as it is dear to me.

No question whatsoever but but let's think of this for a moment the.

The New Testament gift of prophecy.

Was there any effort to record all the words because this was somehow going to be new Scripture doesn't pulse explicitly in first Corinthians 14 that other prof prophetically gifted people have to listen to me carefully what spoken does he say in first Thessalonians the fifth chapter that there has to be a testing of everything and holding fast to that which is good. Does any Xanax to your sons and daughters will prophesy, where is there any idea that this is now comes equal to the national leading prophets say in Deuteronomy 18 was going to speak in the whole nation has to comply or not know now. We all have the Holy Spirit now were all to test what spoken, and to hold fast to the good. So there is a change in authority that's explicit in the New Testament and apostles are just part of the team now. In fact, not even on the highest rung of authority under the apostles. In that sense we should be very different from the Old Testament paradigm.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit is for the last days, and on and on this explicit. These are commands. These are expectations and we know historically that the gifts continued after the apostles died and we know by scriptural testimony to expectant and even to mention on a historical attestation level.

The longer ending of Mark, which we understand is not the original ending of Mark's gospel.

We can dispute with her to be viewed Scripture not but it's widely recognized that this is at the very least an early historical testimony to the words of Jesus, widely quoted by many of the church fathers are not getting into a debate about its authority or place in Scripture that's a separate debate. But this much is clear. This is quoted by by the early church leaders as something that is real and ongoing in terms of these signs follow those who believe why, because the confirmation is on the resurrection of Jesus, and in even a verse like second Corinthians 1212 does not limit signs and wonders to the apostles alone. For example, the ESV, the signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience. That's that is what he's talking about and with signs and wonders, and mighty works. That was additional confirmation, but the sign spoken of. There are not just for an apostle signs was mighty works because they happen to others in the New Testament. With that, therefore, make Stephen an apostle that they therefore make make Philip an apostle obviously not in again there is absolutely no connection between this and the fact that the gifts of the spirit are given freely through the New Testament unattached to apostles, unattached to prophets as part of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh.

I really appreciate Michael spirit and the way in which she's addressed me and address these issues.

Course I completely disagree with them but I do. I am thankful because this has opened the door for a number of important perspectives about Scripture and the exegesis of Scripture that I think are widely understood not only misunderstood lullaby charismatics but by evangelicals. In fact, I think these misunderstandings are the source of the vulnerability of many evangelicals, charismatics, first of all, I do appreciate our brother admitting that there are no apostles of Christ today, please. We must not then try to fogged this issue up by pointing to the apostles of the churches missionaries and messengers of the churches the apostles of Christ, the apostles of the churches are two very different things, and by admitting the cessation of the apostles of Christ. I say again, our brother has been admitted to a form of sensationalism. He has admitted that the first and greatest gift Christ gave to his church has ceased first Corinthians 1228 and following. First Corinthians, Ephesians 482 11. I also I also appreciate his emphasis on solar scriptural and the closure of the Canon. Obviously there can be no solar scriptural no actual embrace of it unless you have a closed heaven.

But here's the point that I think our brother Mrs. and that many people miss is not enough just to assert kind of by fiat at and without any rationale that the Canada's close what I want to know what must be answered. What cannot be abated and what any doctrine of this word course must answer is this why is the Canon close what is the form of the canon. The Old Testament canon is called the prophetic word is called Moses and the prophets is called the law and the prophets, the form of the new cuff customer Canon the foundation of the church upon which it is built is called apostles and prophets. This is the form of the Canon God didn't just drop his word and building tablets out of heaven, he gave it through certain men, certain designated ever tested men. And so the question has to be, not just we believe in the cup).

I admit that our brother, glad to say. And men like Wade Ruderman John Piper believe in a) the issue that never seems to be faced is this why is the camera close what basis is a close. What closed it and the answer that question is that those men that were the inspired the inspired reviewers of God's special revelation of those men ceased to be in the world. What if the Old Testament Moses and the prophets had for its form and from one of its delivery method. These sayings of prophets, the attested word of prophets of the New Testament was given through the apostles and prophets.

You cannot at one of the same time maintain that there are prophets in the world today in the Canada's close those are two inconsistent things what Dr. Brown, Michael Leach, the answer is the question on what basis does he believe that the Canada's close we agree that it is wisest to close all but one of the reason the early church arrived refused the monotonous air in the in the second century, is because they refused to allow about new prophets to add to the Scriptures, but if there are prophets, then those profits must be incorporated in the Scripture, the other promises of John 14 to 60 cannot be willing to look like. While Christians, there has to be an important interpretive bread that looks. First of all, of the fact that these promises were given to apostles of Christ and the same thing is true of the great commission. Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24 and the version of the great commission, we have in John 20 and all as well and acts chapter 2 the people that were standing and speaking in tongues focus their and it's clear if you read the passage in context and all versions of the great commission, including acts 18. These are not addressed. Wall Disciples of Christ they are addressed to the apostles of Christ is the foundation of the church. Now of course the great commission continues to belong to the church, the apostles of diet and they bequeathed the commission to the church in its original form.

The promises of the great commission and the focus of acts chapter 2 is not on all Disciples of Christ. It is on the apostles of Jesus Christ and those other men and women early church, the receipt I once again got a jump in here he comes back on the line of fire closing arguments all yes you are saying and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks for joining us on the line of fire.

Another special event consists of classic rates have had in the past this with Prof. Sam Waldron gives the spirit of the ceased New Testament gifts of the spirit.

And here you get our closing remarks and I'll share some final thoughts at the end. Thank you so much and again I want to make claim that every time I hear Sam refer to me as brother. It's a reminder that we are brothers and as passionately as I differ sir with your arguments.

I mean no disrespect, I know these are very serious arguments to I need actually written a book about the senator talked about it. So in no way do I want to demean the study of Scripture that you've done and your desire to esteem the uniqueness of Scripture and the uniqueness of the role of the 12 apostles. So as I stand with you and that but I respectfully say that you were undermining solar scriptural in the process and undermining the centrality of the word and undermining the authority of Scripture, and on that level. Picking and choosing what to follow and what not to follow. So in conclusion I want to reiterate what I feel has not been dealt with whatsoever in my final questions for my secessionist friends to consider land did the coming of the kingdom change in terms of its effect.

The kingdom of God is not a matter of words only, but of power and that power includes miracle working power to heal the sick and drive out demons, to the glory of the name of Jesus when in fact did that change Scriptures clear that it has not changed, when in fact did the revelation of the will of God through Jesus to heal and deliver change. Why would we be so suspect today of healing in the name of Jesus, or even the expectation of healing in any normal level. Where is it something very commonly spoken of in James V chapter and comes to us by revelation of the will of God and Jesus. If you see me. He says you seen the father that was not dealt with and also I do not see how John 1412 13 and 14 can be just applied to the apostles. It is spoken to them, but there are things spoken to the Jewish crowds in John six which we applied ourselves into the Jewish crowds of John seven that we apply to ourselves and say to those at the gravesite of Lazarus in John 11 that we pride ourselves. Why because they have the words whoever whoever believes in me, those have been preserved in the wisdom of God for all of us. I want to reiterate that nothing that I brought out from acts chapter 2 was in any way undermined or even touched whatsoever.

The outpouring is on all flesh.

It is absolutely not for the apostles only already was on the hundred 20 now your sons and daughters will prophesy. This is the thing that Joel spoke at length for the period of the last days according to first Corinthians 10. Hebrews 1.

First Peter one James five, first John two and other passages we have been in the last days even the last hour since Jesus died and rose from the dead. It continues until the end. That's why Paul commanded the Corinthians were not lacking in any spiritual gift, waiting for the return of Jesus. And we see plainly that these gifts given in first Corinthians 12 are given for the common good. It remains an expression of the goodness of God.

It remains an expression of the grace of God. The charismatic be an expression of the Caras the grace and empowerment of our loving God and this is just fundamentally a matter of Jesus being risen from the dead, and he continues to do the same things he did on the earth because he is terms of his essential nature the same yesterday today and forever. And the reason that these things are done is because the Holy Spirit has been poured out, and that outpouring remains active until the end of the age and the Holy Spirit always glorifies Jesus and these things that we speak about for the glory of the Lord Jesus. That's what's sacred to us. That's what's so important that it's to his glory. And this is how he's being revealed around the world today is signs, wonders and miracles are done in Jesus name to draw people to him to show me where please the subscription explicit Scripture. This is no longer seek to prophesy now for bid speak in tongues. Show me the explicit Scripture my steel brother and said there is none, and we think and closing of the many other promises that include the ongoing gifts and power of the Spirit for today and the manifestation of the kingdom and the nature of the spirit and the fellowship of the Spirit in my sheep here my voice. Jesus is of course is God speaks and acts. He continues to do so, we should welcome and embrace all that he is doing in the earth today. Thank you brother thank you Dr. Brown for debating and confessing Baptists dividing line for hosting this.

Thank you for your gracious spirit brother Addison would like to talk with you and to discuss these issues with you but we just make several points in closing, first of all, I appreciate my brother's emphasis on the fact that the kingdom continues. It is not still breaking him and Satan is not still being bound. That happened at the beginning of the gospel age, but I do appreciate his emphasis on the ongoing kingdom of God. All I want to say is that certainly true word… Divide the possibility of the miraculous or miraculous healing in the world today. We are simply denying the presence of miracle workers were not denying that other strange things might happen that that though all that we cannot explain what the can only be explained supernaturally simply denying that there are apostles of Christ tongues speakers and prophets in the world today and I just have to__that my brother has never sufficiently explained why some of what why some writings are viewed as canonical Scripture by the church and why some others are not a what really needs to be examined by people that are taking this position.

They really need that they need to examine into the document.

The word they have to ask the question asked of Scripture asked clearly. The question, what is the form of the canon of the form of the candidates Moses and the prophets of the Old Testament and the apostles and prophets of the two.

In the New Testament we simply cannot maintain that there are prophets of Christ in the world. The day without opening the canon and that if we are going to maintain that there prophets that day, but they are not prophets as existed in the Old Testament or or as existed in the New Testament times and wrote part of the New Testament that we have to admit that we really do believe in a second level prophecy of a split-level prophecy and that is possible to be a true prophet and yet violate explicitly the commands of Deuteronomy 8 1815 and following the standard of what counts as prophecy and scriptural prophecy in a similar way, I would like to call upon my brother and and of charismatics everywhere to to stop the turning what the Bible makes a very clear distinction into a spectrum of all thought of things with regard to apostles of Christ. Either there are apostles of Christ in the world today or there or not you believe that there apostles of Christ in the world today than the candidates open because because apostles of Christ have a right to say a letter.

If anyone think that is a prophet or spiritually recognized the things I write to you are the commandments of the Lord so there apostles of Christ in the world today. The candidates open. If there are no apostles of Christ in the world today than the first and greatest gift Christ gave to his church is deceased, and we are all then cessation. Most of some variety or another of them. What I want to say in closing is this the denial of the miraculous gifts frees us to focus on preaching the living word of God and the canons of the old and New Testament about living word of God is so authenticating and itself interpreting the canon does not need modern miracles to confirm its authenticity or to interpret its meaning. What we need to do is go back to preaching with confidence and power. The written word of God of first Peter 123 to 25 you've been born again, not of seed which is which is perishable, but imperishable, that is the living and enduring word of God at this is the word that was preached to you. Hebrews 412 for the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit.

Luke 1631 what he said to him, if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets. They will not be persuaded even if someone rises the debt thank you brother thank you James. Like you, Michael for hosting this, I encourage again if you're interested in the subject to go to the links we put up and asked her to Brown.org escape your brand that work for today's episode. A link to the entire debate on our YouTube channel in the description.

Ask Dr. Brown on YouTube for today's show we got a link to the full debate you can watch it when I want to encourage you to do is his first do your best to read through the word read through the word retooling with the word speak for itself off at our church environments are background even our experiences speak louder than the word self school back to the word. What is it safe to say say and then if you seen God work supernaturally if there is evidence of gifts of the spirit. Ask yourself okay this is this line up with Scripture. This is confirm my faith in Jesus. This this deep in my walk with the Lord is the spirit other people to the Lord of so give God praise and as brothers and sisters in Jesus, we can differ on this. Still following wholeheartedly, Jesus is Lord is for me. I am so thrilled to experience the power of these gifts for his honor. Another program powered by the Truth Network