The Brown-White Debate on Predestination and Election

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. The following is a prerecorded program which is the Bible say about predestination and election what's is clear is brown and white stock for the line of fire with your host activist all the international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience have resident of fire school of Ministry under the line of fire. Now, like always, 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH your exam is Dr. Michael Brown friends welcome to this special debate week on the line of fire. What we've done Monday Tuesday today Wednesday and then tomorrow Thursday is rather than a regular broadcasting we are taking you into different debates that I've done over period of years with different scholars and leaders, professors, rabbis, different ones talk about issues of great importance, and some are fellow believers. Others were differing in terms of fundamentals of the faith. This debate goes back to February 14, 2013 with my dear friend and colleague Dr. James White debating predestination and election. So here's the format this next segment is is is going to be presentation the first presentation will come. The opening comments are right then next and it will get all about 1011 minutes of those in uninterrupted next segment will be the next set of opening comments and then the segment after that will take you into the Q&A between Dr. White and me and then the last segment will take you into our closing statement.

So without further ado, the opening comments in the debate.

Although James and I will really do our best to lay out what we differ on some of the subjects of Calvinism predestination election with the Bible says about how God saves us will do our best to lay out our differences are our mutual prayers that God will be glorified and that you will leave here more devoted to him and in love with him and hungry for his word than when you came in and although we deftly have differences here that will do our best to highlight and challenge each other on why we hold to what we hold to James as a front-line apologist going into a mosque in London debating Muslims taking on cults and false religion doing it fearlessly for the gospel. So I honor my brother in the midst of these differences I noticed earlier today that someone posted on my Facebook page a comment that was a derogatory comment towards Dr. whiteness we don't have that here my Facebook page. Thankfully, balanced out with some just instant messaging me that I'm not sage so it's all working out falling into place. I was a Calvinist for five years 1990s that 1977 to 1982, so I'm not going to caricature Calvinism tonight. I'm not a basher and we could give a list of of many great Calvinist scholars, teachers, preachers, evangelists, missionaries, my desire is that we understand the God of Scripture. I am very jealous for the glory of God. I'm very jealous that we understand the grace of God and my only question is, are we willing to bow down to the God of the Scriptures. That's my challenge that's my question. I'll be quoting a lot of Scripture to you tonight. I assure you, though, that I can back up every point I make with detail exegesis of the text in the original languages so I'm not just throwing things out even if everyone gets challenged. I assure you I can back them up carefully number one, it's absolutely clear from the word that there are many things that people do that grieve God and are contrary to his will and desire.

He certainly did not in any sense ordained them throughout the word he distances himself from human sin and evil makes clear that this was not what he intended for his creation. For example, Genesis 6, five and six generation of the flood. The Lord saw how great was man's wickedness on earth and out every plan devised by his man was nothing but evil all the time and the Lord regretted that he had made man on earth, and his heart was set. He did not say I ordained for you to do these things are in any sense predestined them for you.

Rather, he was grieved and pained. His actions in fact Jeremiah 7 verse 31.

This is the generation that was about to go to exile, what, when they were burning their sons and daughters in the fire to chew Mola in the high places of toe fit. God said this, the things that they did burning their sons and daughter in the fire. I did not command more to come. In my mind knows I absolutely never intended for you to do these things. It summed up in Ecclesiastes 729 where the author says this see this alone. I found that God made man upright, they sought out many schemes.

Second point throughout the word God calls us to make choices. Commending those who trust and obey him like Abraham, whom he calls his friend in Isaiah 41 eight and condemning those who refuses grace. If you just start reading the Bible from the beginning without theological presuppositions as much as is humanly possible.

You will see that the Bible presupposes that there is an ability to choose life or death, or to receive an offer of grace or to reject it. Even if you say God is the one who enables us to make that choice. He calls us to make a choice and he commands those who choose to put their trust in him and condemns those who refuse.

That's why it's written.

Deuteronomy 30 verse 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today Moses speaking that I've said before you life and death, blessing occurs with the whole University I'm giving a choice to make. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live.

1324 Jesus urged the people of his day strive to enter the narrow door for many I tell you, will seek to enter will not be able and when Paul is explaining in Romans to how there is no partiality in God.

This is what he writes, God will render to each one according to his works. To those who by patience and welldoing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness. There will be wrath and fury for God shows no partiality and there are many scriptures that indicate to us that God does not predetermine all the responses of humanity. Can God work out his plan in the midst of sending people.

He does it every day. Can God accomplish his ultimate will in the midst of a rebellious planet.

He does it every day the people said against his will and reject his will by the choices they been given yes absolutely. And God does not predetermine that people reject him with what's written. Jeremiah 36 God tells the prophet to write down on a scroll all the words of judgment against Israel and Judah.

And then he says this in verses two and three. Perhaps Hebrew alive simply means perhaps when the house of Judah here. Of all the disasters I intend to bring upon them. They will turn back from their wicked ways, and I will pardon their iniquity and their scent another. Some come to a wrong theological conclusion. Open CS is the call that God actually doesn't know what people are going to but for this text to have any meaning at all.

When this prophecy is given, God say, there is actually the possibility in terms of their own experience that they may choose to obey or not obey. That's why God says. Perhaps to Jeremiah because they had not yet made a decision to God for not yes before those things we do, but for knowledge and free will or not opposites but what God says in Ezekiel 22 verses 30 and 31 and I sought for a man among them who should build up the wall instead of the breach before me for the land that I should not start destroyed but I found none.

So instead I put out my indignation. I was I was looking to give them an opportunity if I found one person that would stand in the gap and interested I hold back my fury. I couldn't therefore destroy there's no one there. Even if we think of of the image of God.

The Potter Inc. in Jeremiah the 18th chapter. It is the most detailed account were God sends Jeremiah look at the Potter look at what he does.

He makes one piece of pottery does like he smashes it he starts afresh with something new and he has the freedom to do it because he is the Potter package is write a book on that the one of the statistics are what is the Potter layout.

What is the divine Potter say in Jeremiah chapter 18 that when he decrees disaster for nation if they repent then he'll relent to the disaster will bring on if he declares blessing and they turned to evil relent of the blessing and in and instead bring judgment so the Potter has set up by his free sovereign choice as God and King and ruler.

This is the way he set it up and this is explicitly what's in Scripture, a principal been that emerges from this is simple. If he calls us to repent he enables us to repent. That's why Paul writes in Romans 116. The gospel is the power of God to salvation.

Everyone who believes in and that's why to the dead helpless center.

The word says in Ephesians 514 away cosleeper and arise from the dead in Christ will shine on you. God awakens us, God gives us opportunity will receive his grace will refuses grace number three throughout the word God makes clear that he takes no delight in the death of the wicked, but desires rather that they would repent and live many scriptures point to this I'll just give you a few Ezekiel 1823. Is it my desire that a wicked person shall die, says the Lord God is rather that he shall turn back from his ways and live or the ESV renders it.

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live then continues in verses 30 to 32 God says therefore I will judge you a house of Israel, everyone according to his ways, declares the Lord God.

Repent he's urging them he's calling them repent and turn from all your transgressions must iniquity be ruined, cast away from you all the transgressions. Your transgressions sees me that you committed and make yourselves a new heart and your spirit by the call to repent. That's where the empowering comes from.

Why will you dial house of Israel drive no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord's return and live Ezekiel 3311 as I live, declares the Lord is not my desire that the wicked shall die, but that the wicked shall turn from his evil ways and live. Turn back turn back from your evil ways that you may not dial house of his when some determinedly refuse and then gobble righteously judge that person will even give them over to unbelief and dilution, and even in that sense, hard them in their sin by giving them over to it. That's when they refuse his gracious invitation to repent, but his desire.

His preference for human beings is that we repent and with this is why the invitation is so universal because God's love is universal because Jesus dying on the cross sets forth that universal love and opens the door to every human being, so that everyone is without excuse before. That's why the invitation says this in Revelation 2217 the spirit and the bride say, come. And let the one who hears say, a genuine invitation from the throne of God and let the one who is thirsty, come. But the one who desires take the water of life without price and even to those who been cut off and judgment, but by Jewish people so much of my nation cut off and judgment no longer attached to the tree was Paul saying Romans 11 that if they do not continue in unbelief. In other words, if they turned back in faith. They can be grafted into God has the power to graph the myth and when you get to the end of the marvelous discussion. Romans 9 to 11 attacks that left it began to more but with John six other key texts if they come up which I assume they will how was Paul sum up God's dealing, why has God brought hard this year judgment here. What's his purpose Romans 1132 for God has consigned all disobedience that he may have mercy on all. With that, I rest my case. Think I got it interrupt me you come right back with an extended segment of the opening comments from Dr. James White predestination and election hire. We will file gives the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the reminder flyer now by calling 866-34-TRUTH dear again is Dr. Michael Brown friends to the special we take you into being with Doug James White February 2013. This is an extended segment of his opening comments on our debate about predestination election, but we held at Southern Evangelical seminary. Now we turn it over to Dr. White. All right.

Well, it is indeed a privilege to be with you all this evening. It is certainly a privilege to be with Dr. Brown this evening and I want to simply reiterate what he was saying this is an in-house debate. This is a debate where we are going to the word of God is our final authority. We stand together and defense of the faith, and in doing so we have to seek unity no way for us to seek unity is not by some ecclesiastical decree, but instead to go to the word of God and that is what we are doing this evening we, as fellow believers we, as firm confessors, the Trinity, the deity of our Lord and Master. His substitutionary work is resurrection and his return to Brown. I have defended the deity of Christ against the Unitarians. For example, and that is something is joyous to do but it's because we have that joy in defending these things we have to take the time this evening to be on the opposite end of this most important debate we believe in salvation by grace through faith alone in the absolute necessity of repentance and holiness.

That is something that separates us from some who would call themselves evangelicals and we also believe the sufficiency of Scripture as our final and only infallible rule of faith. I too want to go the Scriptures this evening, I'd like you to think if you'd like to turn your Bibles to Isaiah chapter 10. I'm going to be there for a few moments, actually. So you might actually have time to turn their more important debate. You'll even bother just write it down, but if you want to turn to Isaiah chapter 10. Let me remind you of the contents of that chapter. God has said that he will bring the Assyrians against his people to punish them in Isaiah chapter 10, while the same time saying that he will punish the Assyrians because of the intentions of their heart, so he has one action in mind these bring the Assyrians against the people to punish them in line with the blessings and cursing as it came in the law.

In Deuteronomy, and then because of the attitudes of the heart, the mind of the Assyrian king.

He will then punish the Assyrians for what they did. Some people say that's unfair. God has one thing in mind. He has one holy intention in mind and yet he then punishes the instrument that he used, by which to bring about his own purpose. That's very interesting. This theme of God's sovereignty coinciding perfectly with his justice in judging mankind based upon the intentions of the heart is found throughout Scripture, culminating in the greatest act of God's redemptive love and the greatest act of human evil that was the crucifixion of the sinless son of God. There we are told, acts four 2728 that the gathered group of men member Herod, Pilate, the Jews.

Romans all sorts of different intentions and different purposes and yet they were all sinfully guilty before God for their actions. Yet, what did the early church confess in its prayer. They did exactly what God's hand and God's purpose predestined to occur. Now back in Isaiah 10 after announcing the punishment of the king of Assyria's arrogant heart, a new promise is given a remnants of our alignment in the Greek language chosen by grace. Romans 11 five will return not may return not God's looking down the corridors at times is all but look a remnant returns know God is saying.

A remnant will return.

It's a remnant chosen by grace.

It's God who reserves for himself.

The 7000 who have not bowed the knee to bail is not because they were better than somebody else. God has reserved a people for himself is not a prophecy, it's a promise very very important to see that Paul uses the term Cottonelle IPO there, and Romans 11 five which units substance high will form is the term for remnant use even here in Isaiah 10 in the Greek separate now here is God's active sovereign grace saving the show are the remnants God will do this, just as he will raise up all those he gives to his son Jesus. Here is powerful sovereignty, divine promise is unquestionable, but know that in the midst of the promise is the corollary truth.

Look at the verse toward the end there. A destruction is determined overflowing with righteousness see that a destruction is determined overflowing with righteousness, punishment is fixed it will happen, but as with all of God's actions. He has a purpose to fulfill is not merely responding to us. He has a purpose to fulfill his punishment is overflowing with righteousness. What a concept that is a troubled lot of folks God's punishment overflowing with righteousness. The question I have to ask is is do we have the same priorities. The God says we should have Romans 922 there's a phrase.

What if God was willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known. I just have to ask each one of us this evening that a priority for us. We think of God is the demonstration of God's wrath and the demonstration of God's power. One of our priorities. If God did that in my life that I glorify him for that. Riley glorify him when he gives me good things in comfort and ease. Do we pray for all of God's attributes to be expressed that something we desire. Do we allow God in our thoughts and desires to demonstrate all of his glorious attributes from his great mercy love and grace all the way through to his holiness, power, and wrath is the Isaiah 10 we see the balance that we must hold firmly to the night. God's sovereign purposes and the demonstration of his holiness, his power, his justice and wrath against sin to gather with his sovereign gracious purpose to redeem a remnant chosen according to grace here than in one text. We have together. The two truths that we must hold together which I assert over against Dr. Brown's position this evening.

The two truths are these number one the eternal decree of the king, whereby the triune God has ordained the self-glorification of the Godhead in creation and final redemption there providing a glorious demonstration of all the divine attributes in their fullness. That's number one.

The divine decree and number two the prescriptive will of God enshrined in his law, which reveals his holy purposes for those who seek to follow after him.

It was this prescriptive will the people of Israel had flaunted bring the curses of Deuteronomy 29 upon them, and it is that prescriptive will even found in the hearts of the Gentiles due to the amount owed AE the image of God within them that the Assyrians likewise violated bring God's just judgment upon them, even as he used them to punish Israel or debate. This evening must be focused right here for this is the foundation of all of our differences. Do not miss the real issue here.

If we deny the decree of God, we must confess that while God promises to bring good out of some evil.

The fact is, God created world which there is a tremendous amount of purposeless evil, out of which good is never brought. What is more, God cannot bring specific good to pass out of evil because he's depend upon the actions of evil creatures to provide the basis of his own responses. This leads to insuperable difficulties in how Michael or anyone else can actually ground. True interaction of an eternal being with time bound creatures without falling into either open theism or some form of Mullins Gilpin Theus solves this by saying God does not know the actions of time bound creatures of free moral creatures.

He knows what can happen a natural role, but he doesn't know what free moral creatures you do and that's why the future is open the Mona says well God has a special middle knowledge what any creature will do in any given situation.

Even before he decrees to create them, Which Led William Ln., Craig disabled God's got a deal with the card is been dealt which I go I want to know the God who dealt in the cards.

So we got to God out there somehow. And yet, he then examines all these possible worlds and comes up with a possibility based upon upon that it actuates that universe now. Michael is as far as I know is not embracing either one of those he saying yes God knows all things.

Certainly in the future.

But there is no divine decree that fixed the shape of that future. And so God will accomplish his ultimate goal, but the path to getting there was not fixed by his decree was not fixed by his intention when he created this world that fundamentally is the difference between us. Yes, we differ on issues relating to atonement and things like that that we've debate in the past, but to me the issue this evening for every one of us but for Michael and I especially and hopefully bring you along for the conversation.

What about these texts that say God accomplishes all his desire is God trying to save every single person equally many people as they will of course if you believe that Isaac laughed, asked the question, then why are you praying about them.

You expect 105% effort.

You see, I pray because I'm changed by the prayer. I want to be used by God is the instrument the means to bring the gospel that person but I'm not trying to convince God to be better than the is there such a thing as purposeless, evil, when Joseph came to understand that it was God's intention that he be sold and the slavery in Egypt. I wonder when he figured that out. How many years in prison, but it but he came to understand became recognize that in that one act evil intentions and a part of his brothers even about and restrained from killing him anyways but evil intentions on their heart. Good intention on God's part and what was the outcome to save many people alive today.

Now, could God have gotten Joseph in Egypt some other way.

Will Aviva chosen to do so. But God chose to get Joseph into Egypt. That particular way to save many people alive can God do that and still hold men accountable.

Genesis 50 Isaiah 10 asked for all say yes. Not only can he that is exactly how he doesn't. That is the question before us this evening. I thank you for being here.

I got a jump back in that state for extended opening comments selection become bath with Q&A clean white and brown right here gives the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution there again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks for joining us friends hunted a special line 5 is in what follows, drew going to go into a debate with the James White me on predestination and election. This is an excerpt from our Q&A back and forth to cross-examination. You find interesting and enlightening. You can watch the entire debate on our YouTube channel or website go to asked Dr. Brown.org typing predestination and you see the 2013 debate with the James White me you can watch it for free there. But now we take you into the Q&A representative sampling of an extended back and forth with question answer try to give you a little feel between what we asked the other, how we answered the other the exchange between Brown and right begins now slips to start a practical level in terms of election predestination of I'm hundred percent sure that I'm a child of God. My sins are forgiven. If I was to die right now I be in his presence. I assume you feel the same. Therefore, since you know that our elected predestined. Can you say that you know that is absolute impossible for you to ever fall away while you're confusing. I think creaturely categories of knowledge involuntarily known, I would take infallibility infallible knowledge of the divine category. So, in the sense that the Holy Spirit testifies to me of my son ship as certain as a person can be. At that point, given our human limitation. Yes, but I differentiate between any kind of making my certainty the same kind of level certainty that we have in Scripture's that I have is a non-Calvinist greater assurance the new place, what with us as we could know Johnson's RAF since he could know so you know you have eternal look at what could be deceived possibly remember what first John chapter 5. What factors like you and I both old enough now to know many people used to stand with us in the church and who made those statements to us in the family. I leave them and evaluate yes and so my theology allows for that sort of mine they went out from us that they make, they might be shown they are not truly up right some that's the case, the ones that are being described.

And that's why there's one after one, don't harden your heart exactly the and and we are made partakers.

We continue to the end sweetly on perseverance. So you're saying you're sure, but not not God hundred percent sure I'm not divine so I have to recognize that it is as far as the Holy Spirit testifies to my heart yes and that's and for first John five. By the way so that you may know what I wrote these things to eat. What were those things that you love the brother that you walk in light rays so we have a fruit so their eyebrow warnings.

The warnings Realty. Yes, they are okay fine but that's that's important art of do you agree with the statement of Calvin that I read God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel situated individuals are born who were doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by the stroke. I do okay so if there's a mom here say with her kids who seek in a raisin in the faith. It's possible that God could have preordained before he created the world that she will give birth to a child that will be apostate in a matter prayer raising and what she does.

That child will be apostate and will glorify God, but by going to help the fact the matter is that child is born. I just had my first grandchild of Charles Moore, the fallen son or daughter. Adam and the very fact that death could possibly stock that young child is evidence that they are already under the wrath of God and fallen in that in that state. So to say well it's possible that person could be: quote one of the reprobate as of the term used but only utilize more specific term. David discovered that people discover that all down to the down through history so got God ordained that and that mother should rejoice, then that God is given potentially given if if the child dies in sin and rebellion that see their forces guide you preordained that the child you gave me was going to burn forever in hell to your glory and that was my low inflation rejoices, it will. She rejoices in his the goodness of God that has saved her and has given her mercy and rejoice in the fact that if she has any child that has in fact turn to God by his grace had changed their heart, but shouldn't she rejoice in everything God predetermine I'm certain we can't be selective ants without pre-determined that she should rejoice in it, and thank God that the child that she bore was predestined for health but certainly Michael, do you see that the recognition of the question leaves foundation.

The question you're asking destroys the distinction of not only God's word. But our experience of God's work.

That is my signature to rejoice in all things. Obviously my rejoicing and say persecution it comes to me is different than my rejoicing and other aspects of my clients. The rejoice in the proper sense of her examples narrative is that mercy came to his but that damnation came to her child. She's really should rejoice in the justice of God in all aspects, which includes the fact that she has been given life and forgiveness and I predetermine that she would give birth to record a trophy should rejoice in that. Also, because that's everything God this is good. Something God does. That's bad. Everything God this is good so that's what he does.

I should also rejoice in the rape of the child because God ordained in whatever governing is yet again your your your changing the categories of what rejoicing means. I don't think when Paul says rejoice in all things that he's he saying that I should when I stub my toe eyes grabbing of all praise, praise God.

That's that's that's another ridiculous kind of of underlines raising ridiculous ultimately ultimately in the bathroom in the room where death is taken place. Our final solace is only that God's will will be done when you and I can't know what the outcome is God's will will be done.

That is our solace and that is our background rejoicing. Yes, it's all I'll continue on the other side of our five minutes. Okay, let's see if we get some some clarification on a couple of those points that they were brought up before, from from your perspective was was Romans is Romans chapter 2 giving us a way that a person could be made right with God or is it just it is you not see 13 to 40 is theoretical.

It's possible this is theoretical is certainly a matter of major debate. The.

The issue is, though, that if those first ones are recipients of grace God's help them to do the right thing and that's why they're doing it, the more important.

In other words, throughout Scripture we are to demonstrate our faith or works or deeds by change life so it doesn't about the origin of that it's not saying someone is righteous, because they work hard enough this is that the reflection of their obedience to God in their living it out so it could be theoretical could also be the demonstration of one's living in obedience of his not and it's not the God predetermine one of the other. It's that this is the expression of the faith or lack thereof, does God give grace to every single person equally to follow after him. That can be circumstantial. In other words, does God desire equally that everyone follows Eric yes I believe the answer is does he give the same opportunity.

Their conditions of heart their responses there 1001 things got this tell us was I think one of the bigger differences between us is if I see a text that says XYZ goddesses on the front figure out how it works or how God could know this, I'm just embracing with the text says so it doesn't a monsignor deny the Texans of the same. The philosophical questions when you asked me if I was a monist I had to look it up because I'd never use the term before right that because it is an insult is just area say I see God expressing his mercy and he mercy is all through the cross and then he works with different hearts and lives. He knows where to draw one and and and why one and not another example of an apartment because I think it's an important difference. When you say you're just trying to work with the text and seemingly implying some somebody else in the room isn't. I'm not sure who it might be, but isn't it true that this is not the first time this conversation has been had surely this conversation is been going on for thousands of years right your so isn't it isn't probable. In fact, is an absolute certain you have governing presuppositions theologically. Whether you identify them with a particular camper not are they there yet. Of course okay so can't we examine them more clearly when we can identify them and see how people of have have discussed these things than distantly saying I'm knocking to get socially exploit. My presupposition is of God is not give me access to certain information.

I shouldn't try to pry and figure it out. I should. I don't have to ever figure out how he know certain things in advance. I don't have to do it doesn't tell me to simply tells me Scripture bow down and worship him as God, and to rest in that assurance and to take at face value statement so I know I will find a contradiction undefined to struggle with how God can Forno without forwarding. I know you say the only logical Arminianism is an open theism. That's your logical conclusions.

All contacts gotta have an attorney.

He's not time bound to me is not just try to figure out was to happen here in the right fix this because he transcends all of that so so it's mixing categories of eternity and time to me that honesty Scripture makes it sound like you're just saying that we can't actually answer the question as to how God knows the future outside of simply stating well.

He somehow transcends time training has not or cannot assail praise is a 5715 choking on. He inhabits eternity since time is something created and when the scientist ousts created. It started at a certain point in science knows that right so he inhabits eternity every transcends time to advance a biblical proposition. Okay so so the Bible is clear enough to tell us about God's relationship to time but we can't answer the question of when he created and he knew what was going to happen in time, how he knew that no we can't, because Bible the Bible's house and it does tell us so that he did not ordain everything that happens how that is so, how about the text in Isaiah 41. How can God challenge the false gods to not only tells what you have in the future, but also tells what happened in the past, we may consider them and know their outcome.

How can you challenge false positive that if from his own perspective he didn't know the outcome of those things because there was no purpose. He did know the outcome who said he didn't that that's I not try to be obtuse. I honestly don't follow that the questioner conclusion.

Of course he knew the conclusion he knew the purpose he knew all of it and and he decided to to create a world where there would be certain freedoms because for God to accomplish his will. There had to be certain freedoms given that would not be world of autotest. For example, when you just jokingly talk about Joseph and his brothers right that they weren't gobbles and forcing them to do something, but they were doing what they were predestined to do. They were doing what God made them to do heart monitor yes like that.

There were very here you okay if salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with us is not based on a response or anything in us.

In other words, God did in hot oil right that right, God did not Forno that I would believe that you will humble yourself so salvation is purely based on God's sovereign choice and nothing that he saw in he saw this in James he saw this Michael so he saved us, but he didn't see the same thing someone else talking about unconditional election but unconditional election is not based upon forthright isn't that someone of a divine flip of the coin. If it's based on nothing in any human being could have just as well been someone else in it and in that sense is the equivalent to a flip of the coin. While I do believe that eternal being can flip a coin purse about Hebrew cadres cannot know the coin too big to flip a will there is a good question. What does I proven my point.

But the question is what does flipping mean eternity enough we can go a long ways here with this, but have how it on my voice. I can wait in our environment and a and ultimate being cannot do anything that is arbitrary. That's my first point art. Secondly, we are told what the basis of God's choice is Ephesians chapter 1 according to the kind intention of his will, not our will to win so silent. Well, it was God's will, freely, to create, could God have not created.

I don't know but it was his will to freely create and what he tells us in Scripture is that he's chosen to do so in such a way that it's all according to the good pleasure of his will, so that's not a thought. A flip of the coin. It certainly shows that God is free when it comes mercy and grace has to be free.

He did not have to mercy me because I was somehow better than somebody out there is no injustice then because he created he created everyone without the mastery created created them all damnable right, the limits he created us and such with possible desk than the analysis shows that yeah I know I know you'd like to hear more and get a jump, you come back closing statements that made an effort that my comments for cleansing and by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown of your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown closing comments from yours truly and from Dr. Lloyd finish up our debate from 2013 on predestination election the will of God. Salvation very important subjects that we discussed as brothers in the Lord were done. I'll come back with my closing comments. I think as best as I can. I have tried to focus upon what I see is the foundation with and that is the relationship of God as creator to his universe and whether God has a purpose in everything that flowed from his creative hand or whether God has created in such a way that the form and fabric of what he created was determined by some other force, but he still has sort of an end goal in mind that he accomplishes in and it seems to me that we've somewhat been told that well you really can't know all that you're gone beyond what the Bible actually says and that's why press the text from Isaiah were God says I can tell you what happened the past and why it happened. Michael says yes he can do that, but my point is, he can only do that after the creation itself, because if the actions in time to determine those outcomes and that may to some people in the audience to be man you people you people got me in here to listen to you to pick and admits not that early pigments because I hope all of you seen her this evening. That's I have the greatest respect for this man.

He's written the best book on homosexuality imprint right now.

He and I are gonna have to stand side-by-side in this culture less God grants repentance because my goodness, neither one of us could've ever seen the way things of change in the speed and I'm stopping the timer for a moment here trying to say some nice about a guy and what is it is demonstrates as a radio program that's the problem. There I hope you have seen that I do view this as an in-house debate there. So my reform brother to think I'm a wimp for doing them and there's a lot of my reform brother think I'm crazy for actually liking the and vice versa. I would imagine, but I hope you heard this evening and I hope you will see on Saturday evening. We can join together we can defend the Trinity and the deity of Christ, but I truly want to have unity with my brothers and sisters, and especially this man on these issues and I think we understand each other a whole lot better than we first started this program, that's for sure, but I want to challenge him and I want challenge all of you. I'm an apologist, I take this message into a lot of different contexts.

I had the opportunity of debating the East London Mosque in September, four days after Benghazi, the largest mosque in Europe. I never thought how that have opportune when I go into a place like that Michael might be suggesting that I I try little bit too hard to systematize God.

I would suggest you that when we look at all of what Scripture says there are certain aspects of God's character is funny we go to the same verse the secret things belong Lord our God, the things revealed belong to us and our children from we have to allow God to be God. Each one of us is saying. I'm saying to Michael.

Michael I I don't think you're dealing with my texts in their context, teasing me, I don't think that you can exegete the ones I gave. And yet, I hope that I've laid out for you exactly how it is, God can stretch out his hand and in his prescriptive will engage with his people seen so beautifully and in his fullness in the incarnation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is an amazing thing to God's chosen to do that. But even in the midst of all that, as we saw in Isaiah chapter 10. What is he say, a destruction is determined one overflowing with righteousness, but a remnant will return, and I don't believe God knew that because he looked down the corridors of time, I believe he knew that because he decreed it from eternity for his own purposes that mean that remnant did not feel the work of the spirit within them, causing the love God and to follow after him just as we feel the spirit of God, causing us to do that tonight.

No see. They go together. The question is are we going to allow all of Scripture to speak or we can have a system we push on, no Mike is the new venture system James Wasik Mike so you might has a name we can examine it. All of us do, and all of us have to pray Lord show me in light of your word what your truth is, thank you so much for being a decedent God. Yes the of the steam from the heart is mutual of this my joy to write an endorsement for Dr. White's book about Islam when I was debating some Catholic friends on the air.

We year or so ago about the worship of Mary Mary Autry. I shot a note to James and he recommended a book. I pulled all kinds of quotes out of that forte. So we were really our coworkers and even though I was joking about having to pray in 22 out to get focused for serious debate.

I'm quite serious that up until late last night as I just kept thinking over the weeks went on to say or write out were both busy running 100 miles an hour. I thought lately lately, I've I've got to really make the sharp and clear.

Because the goal of the night is not just a short camaraderie.

That's got to underlies things we need to highlight differences in and I would say ultimately it comes down to this. On a practical level, you need to worry about the questions.

Dr. White's ask they they are ultimately theoretical and don't affect your witness to your next-door neighbor, or your witness to someone else. Rather than saying. Perhaps they are electing Jesus died for them.

I don't know, but all share the gospel with everyone. I have the confidence that Jesus shed his blood for every single person and in the most honest way. Nothing disingenuous at all I can tell that person that a filter to gaga will have mercy.

Why because Jesus died. I know it when I can say God commands all men everywhere to repent. I know it's not just a few. In the midst of it that he will enable repent and and think of it, if someone says so far. Repent and put my trust in Jesus. I'll be saved.

Ultimately, the answer is, what if you do it then will now but if not, perhaps, not because Jesus didn't really die for use even on tell you to put your faith in him. He may not even died for you.

Now I know you say will that's the way you're looking at it.

I'm simply saying if you start to think through all these issues, you can get hung up if you simply say gospel of the world and preach the gospel to all and seek to go to the ends of the earth is James as an evangelist and so mine and were involved in missions, but for me it gets a whole lot more simple when we lay it out like that and illegally look at the text like Abimelech in Genesis the 20th chapter where it says that God kept them from sending whites is because I saw you did that of a blameless heart was. There are things that God's looking at second Chronicles 69. His eyes are going throughout the whole earth, that he might show himself in strong support of those whose hearts are holy. His he didn't just program it in advance. He's looking he's looking and there were choices that we can make.

That's part of what he endowed us with by his grace and I think of his longing. I wish I could just reread all the verses I start with just a baby when the reality of God's longing God's desire God's heart, but would just listen to this in Luke 1334 I'm quoting Calvinist scholars are friends of Calvinists Luke 1334 in terms of God's heart appearing in author William Perkins said this the thing which you will is, namely the gathering of the Jews by the ministry of the prophets was begun in practice long before his incarnation. Where is that I take in here is divine will is meant to the will of his Godhead, which is also the will of the father and the Holy Ghost Calvinist author Walter chantry said Jesus is speaking to people are finally going to perish, and he knows it is pronouncing a curse on him on them yet in the midst of sentencing them. Jesus expresses his love of them and a desire that they would repent and believe. He reminded these very people who would soon perish that they been repeatedly invited to come to him and he says I would've gathered you but you were not willing.

I think that's what we need to come away with your not speculating on how God knew what he knew in all seriousness Dr. White has read more philosophy and theology that I have were both exegetes but II just don't comment those things.

To the degree philosophically and theologically that my colleague might is just a matter of training the background because we both agree it's the word that determines things for me. What we need to come away as is with a heart recognizing the heart of God right now for dying world. The beating heart of God that all would come to know him is grief and pain because people right now reject him and end with the fact that he has called us to be ambassadors and to make him known and to cry out of the stone to save and to deliver and get a people for himself and Dr. White and I will absolutely stand side-by-side, preaching the gospel and rejoicing in God's mercy forever and ever. As trophies of his grace, simply say there's a better way to approach it. Let's start with the heart love of God and then pour ourselves out for dying world. All right, that's it were, at a time. If you're watching on YouTube or Facebook looking to description and of today show and you will see a link to watch the entire broadcast for free. The entire debate I should say for free between Dr. James White, and yours truly on the subject of predestination and election this a debate we have his brothers love the Lord and honor the Lord together when I debate it.

Dr. Zechariah. This we played excerpts on Monday found and afterwards that scholars invited me don't even think I'm saying because I'm not a strict Calvinist shame well.

Dr. White Knight differ on these things deeply, but both love the Lord, both local and another, and both recognize these are disagreements we have within the faceless learn from each other that's beatified let's grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus knew the website Esther to ground out or typing predestination to be able to find a debate there to watch and then grow. The key thing is faithful to the word faith in the God prayer much lasting fruit for the kingdom.

That's what my friend James wants. That's what I want to see pieces for five months and you bear much fruit. Once in the name of God exalted in this world touch the power of the gospel. Tomorrow's broadcast is with Jewish Rabbi yes another program powered by the Truth Network