Embracing Messy, Beautiful Forgiveness (Part 2 of 2)

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Lisa Turk first joins us once again on Focus on the Family your hostess focus president and author Jim Daly and on John Fuller job. Forgiveness is one of the most difficult commands that God gives us and so often the person who hurt us never apologizes. They may not even be aware of it. Forgiveness can feel especially impossible when the person we are closest to our spouse the trays that trust and that's what we talked about last time with our guest Lisa Turk Kirsten when her husband had an affair and then Lisa went through one of the most difficult seasons of her life. She's found freedom from her resentment and it's our hope that her story help you also feel that freedom and stop by your websites. Shippable red grabbed YouTube or mobile versions to hear that first part of the conversation. It was really powerful. As Lisa opened up and was so vulnerable with us and shared from the Scriptures as well. As I mentioned to Lisa Turk. Kirsten is the president of Proverbs 31 it's a ministry that has a worldwide reach.

She's a wife and a mom and a grandmother as well in her new book is called forgiving.

What you can't forget Discover how to move on. Make peace with painful memories and create a life that's beautiful again and we've got copies of that here the link is in the episode notes Lisa welcome back to the program all effect on our joint rising, and I get excited because I know people are going to be helped with what you have to share in that it just is bursting in me because I know there are many people that are living in a low place like where you were at and you're throwing them like this latter to say here's the way up out of that pit.

And that gives me great hope and excitement for what you're going to share with us today. Last time we left off with your expression of maybe shaking a fist at God. If I could say it that way. Why would you let this stuff happen to me and I'd like to just come back to that end again for the listener. The viewer for Mr. to get the download get the smart phone app whatever you need to do because it gives context for today and I would really encourage you to do that. But let's go back just briefly last time you were talking about pending that hurt on God. If God were a good God, why would you let me suffer this way, which by the way is one of the frequently asked Google questions of God so good, why does he hate me so much. That's a powerful statement once you hit that when does God hate anybody yeah and it breaks my heart.

I think in that research I quoted in the book. It was the third most popular Google question about God, and while it breaks my heart. I understand that someone can be in so much pain that they would ask that question.

Why does God hate me and down. I understand the sentiment behind that question because I think when life is imploding around me and circumstances just seem to be just unrelenting and devastation 70 and so permanent yet. I think that's where I could find myself and so much of what we walk through it.unchangeable any unchangeable can feel unforgettable and down. I understand why people would say how could God just stand by and do nothing. I understand that question that Jim you know when I look at who God is, we don't serve do nothing.

God is always always working, moving, acting, and changing and shifting and he's always moving us toward good and we have to cooperate with Jim. I tell the story in the block that at any I think people will relate to and that is at during part of this process. I had a major home renovation that was done and I'll never forget that builders came in one day and they brought sledgehammers and they started completely demolishing my kitchen my kitchen this place that so much of our life right and centered around right, but I did not panic that they did that because I gave him permission based on the plans that I saw that they were going to make it even better to make it more beautiful to make it more functioning for my family.

But if I'd woken up on a day and just saw man showed up at the house with sledgehammers demolishing my kitchen and I didn't know that they had a good purpose in mind, I would panic and called 911 that would affect them. I would've tried to prevent and I think sometimes we forget that when God shows in the midst of demolition.

It never for the purpose of destruction. It's for the purpose of construction. It's for the purpose of rebuilding and strengthening and bringing something beautiful and so I can have that kind of trust in my builders.

Why can I not have that same kind of trust when it comes to God showing in parts of my life that what appears to be a demolition I get is actually a set up for construction tomorrow and so often I can trust the master builder. He is the master builder with a good plan in mind and I can remember that I can see this not as the destruction of something I love, but the construction of something that God is able to do that is really good, but again we haven't put finer touch to this, but your situation with your husband didn't recover quickly.

You. You pointed to the you had to experience this after the outbreak of trust after the infidelity you know you were going weeks, months trying to sell years Lord where is it, how did you guess that means so many women and some men organist say how do you do that therein it right now Lisa there to say, Lord, what do I do do I stand.

What were you feeling in those early months and then the year-end in the second year that we are sensing God saying to you while I remember Tim thinking this is so painful I can't endure another 60 seconds. I can't endure another 24 hours. I can't endure another week and I have no idea that this is going to be at 2 1/2 your battle had no idea and I mean it. It's long and when you think about, you know that means 2 1/2 years.

I will Absolutely alone when my five kids grew up and left the house. My baby packed her bags and moved out to go on and do you know great things with her life and get it education in and do wonderful things but my husband also packed his bags and he was gone.

He did not live in my house for 2 1/2 years.

That means 2 1/2 years of waking up so many times at 2 AM and out of habit, putting my arm on his side of the bed and wanting to feel his protection and him not being there and I think one thing that was so incredibly painful and I relate to this so much with so many people who are hurting and it just seems like there is no end the that thing that was so hard for me is when do I say enough is enough I have biblical grounds for divorce. I absolutely did, and I didn't just have biblical grounds for divorce. One time it happened over and over and over and to the point where I told you yesterday show I was the only one who held onto any hope at the end that my marriage was going to make it and the thing that I kept saying to myself.

Jim is I'm just gonna leave a little bit more RAM for God to move on her chest and leave a little bit more. For God to me and I may you that one day God was either going to rescue me out of this situation or he would provide a way for me to be redeemed inside and reconciled in the relationship, but either way I was going to pursue a redemption story with God.

That's what's so important and I want to say that loud here today that sometimes God rescues people out of relationships and some.times God restores people in relationships, but either way, they can have a story of redemption and they it is not dependent on another person. You can pursue a redemption story and that redemption story is based on your choices with God.

You let me ask you that woman. The ghetto put it in the context of a woman.

I know it can work the other way, but you've gone through and you've gone through this woman. So I want the realness from you when you get to the fork in the road which may have come up over and over again. I can only imagine family members saying Lisa what are you doing your acting like a doormat.

Your you know you have every right to get out of this relationship do it. I think the two-part question is one how do you know it is God's will to stick with that and then how do you know when he's letting you off the exit ramp is a really big questions for people that emotionally are foggy and they don't know what's going on and they don't know the right turn and they don't know what to do. What counsel do you give them well that's another reason why it is really important for me and forgetting. We can't forget that I had an entire section on boundaries, because it's not about being a doormat.

It's not about allowing another person and not emotional access to you to keep hurting you and using you and so I had to have some really good counsel in my life I had pastors I had counselors and I had some very close friends and I knew these friends were praying more words over me than they were talking about me or to me and together we put boundaries in place so that I wasn't getting winded, day after day after day after day the situation was hard and horrific article that I had to have space where I got alone with God.

And that's part of the reason why art and I couldn't live in the same house. I don't think separation is for everyone, but I do think you got to have their appropriate boundaries so that abuse does not continue so that addictions can be dealt with in so that you can get wise counsel of people helping him make the decisions that you have to pay for what Lisa ensuring but there's so important and it may be that you don't have the gift that she had with people surrounding her praying for her, encouraging her youth you're not sure where to turn. If not plugged into a church community. Give us a call with curing Christian counselors here and they can walk through, some initial steps establish those boundaries that Lisa's talking about this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly or guest is Lisa Turk cursed her book is forgiving. What you can't forget a call us for the book or to set up a time to talk to one of her counselors. It's 800 K in the word family or the link is in the episode notes Lisa I love this analogy that I'm about to ask you to share with everybody in this is before arts affair. You compared your marriage to beeping smoke detector described that because it is so hope accurate.

Well we all know that there is a reason why our smoke detectors. It's because they're saying they don't have enough power to operate properly to inform you when they're smoking how civic protective from the devastating effects of smoke inhalation. If there's a fire right and so there is a warning. If your fire alarm goes off. We all know jump up, get out of the house, dial 911 when that's meant detector beaks also warning most of us don't take it as a warning.

We want to get the smoke detector to stop beeping its air enters its irritating and so I often want to unhook the smoke detector rather than immediately going, getting batteries and replacing the batteries said that the smoke detector can work properly and I think it's these early warnings. It's the beats before the alarms that sell many of us get too busy or we get too distracted or we just get too annoyed to attend to the beeping and the beeping is as important as the alarm.

Such a great word picture and analogy for all of us as married couples to pay attention to those warning signs what's happening.

You go on to say that you and art have gotten very good at playing the necessary roles in your marriage, man, we gotta be careful here because you know you want to be all in with your spouse. What did you mean by playing the role and why is that dangerous. Well I think it's really just going through the motions. You know it's like it's very easy to fall into rhythms and routines and going to the motions and you're not doing that things but you're not tending to the most important things and you know, Tim, there is an exercise that art and I did in counseling was very very profound. I didn't separately from him and I had to draw the sting, trauma, etc. trauma, egg like a big white piece of poster board to egg shaped in the accounts are set divided up into little squares in the inside of each square right down from your earliest memory. Any time that you have been abused or traumatized, or rejected or hurt in some way is right all those memories that that draw stick figure pictures and so you know I drew all these little components all these little squares and stick figure pictures of times that hurt is traumatized rejected in some way and then the cancer said that stand in front of me and tell me the story of every square and wet my cancer was listening for was a shame script that is a pervasive theme in my life that I believe something wrong and because I was deleting this shame script. I was bleeding this lie was leading this wrong narrative about my life. I navigated my relationships. Based on my shame script that hears with interesting art.

The same exercise. My shame script was Lisa. Do not ask too much for other people because they're gonna think eventually you are an annoyance to them. I don't ever ever ask too much for other people because you will be seen as an annoyance arts shame script was you're not good enough. You're not good enough in what you do. So now here's what I want to do, Jim. Think about how these two shame script could come together when art and I were in the rhythm and retained going to the motions doing our roles in our relationship are often offered to do stuff for me and I hear don't let him do that. Because if you didn't let him do too much for you. He's gonna see you as an annoyance. So I would say to him. Oh no, that's okay. I'm in a do it myself. So what he would hear is I'm not good enough. That's why she saying don't do the subjects of those two shame script came in collision and I will never forget the day will be set in front of her counselor and art looked at me with tears in his eyes and he said for 20 years, he's been telling me I'm not that enough and I pushed my chair and I said to my counselor as God is my witness, I have never said those words to you in the cancer said you're both right probably say you've never said those words, but every time he told him no, you don't need to do that for me. I'll do it myself based on your shame script what our current was you're not good enough, and year after year after year are two shame scripts were colliding like don't ask him to do staff and she thinks you're not good enough and you can see how it eroded very intimate nature of authenticity between us and our relationship. Let's continue.

You know down the path your speak to that woman who's worried. Her husband has issues. He hasn't dealt with them. And maybe she's listening today and she's gone. I can't wait to go straighten Jim out was just assume it's a dream of what can she do to help him start opening up to the healing that the Lord has for him and then we can reverse it. But speak to that woman that she can clearly see the path forward. She knows intuitively what those things are that her grabbing her husband's ankles and keeping him from the right path. How does she go about addressing these things well. One thing that I think is really important is don't work harder on your husband than he is willing to work on himself. That's important because I think there were many years where I work harder on art and art was working on art and it put us in this very weird place where I started to think of myself as the St. and him as the center and when you believe that you're the St. and the other person is the center it's impossible for forgiveness to happen and it's impossible to the man to ever feel like he has what it takes to be the man and the leader in that relationship.

And when God says that is not good for the man to be alone I will create a helper suitable. What does that suitable mean to helper and the answer that I found in Scripture absolutely blew my mind. Jim, the woman is supposed to remind the man that he is not just dust of the ground meant to be wiped away and discarded that he is also correct of God's of one of the most beautiful things a woman can do for man is to remind him you're not just – but you are correct of God, made in the image of God designed to fill a holy calling of God and in the one man is to stand there and hear the man echo over her and you're not just broken off the net to be buried and forgotten about. Know you are touch of God's design of God meant to fill a high holy calling of God in the divine echo that can happen when a man speaks lies over a woman and a woman speaks like over man interruption to that divine echo is Satan's attempts at shame, shaming the man to make him feel less stand and shaming the woman making her feel like she's not worthy and we had to get back to God's original design.

Speaking life over one another yeah lease at the beginning of her program. Last time we played a clip from you in arts though renewal ceremony described the counseling and healing it took to get from the place of hurt that you've described so well to a more beautiful place of though renewal just describe the force. Well, I think for us at the point where we felt like now we done enough work on ourselves as individuals that it's time to come back and start working on the relationship. We realize that there was a lot of work and have to be done to rebuild trust and Jim that is a brutal process. It is so hard and you know here we are in out several years out from this and were still working on it and there was a truck in this emotional cost here to what happened.

So when I get triggered in my pain and all of that anger and frustration and even some of the bitterness comes back.

It doesn't make me a forgiveness failure. It means I need to have another marked moment of forgiving now for the impact that this had on me. So I stop when I say I now forgive art to this anxiety that I didn't have before.

And whatever my feelings will not yet allow for the blood of Jesus. Surely cover it and it's just another marked moment forgetting for both the fact and the impact when you look at the totality of the picture we saw a ghost.

The question is, given everything that you and art have gone through. Is it worth it worth the fight for your marriage such a good question.

Can you know it's in the quiet moments where were sitting out by this little fireplace out on our patio, sitting out by the fireplace and I know our grandson runs up to us and I know that this grandson art is as invested in this part of this little boy as I can and we look at him and we look at each other me say man this is the hardest thing we've ever fought for, but it's in that moment, it is worth will I hope that person is looking maybe not, they will heed your words then make a different decision.

You know, we started with a clip of you in the beginning with the vow renewal. I want to end with the words art shared with you in that intimate moment, and like to play that right now. You never gave up on all… Somehow allow God. What George Linda Bates Mount for the social advice relates to grace Golding reversed legacies and I will hold your hand tight as we took the hands of our children and our grandchildren, and make memories together that will overflow with love for her. I don't have a dry that's what it's about.

Lisa even though you're in the fight. It's the right fight to be a and I'm so proud of you and art for you being on display that everybody could see what it means to fight for your family think Tim, thank you and were where the wood leases when talking about is so powerful goes way beyond even a marriage such as generations and it might not be your marriage might be something that happened you long ago, it might be something that happened just yesterday that you need to really dial into what we've been talking about today and learn to forgive and move on in and find that space and find that healing good God is love garden.

Lisa defined thus far in their journey together: super can be part of that with you our numbers 800 the letter in the word family 800-232-6459 I with Karen. Christian counselors we got Lisa's book, forgiving what you can forget with a lot of great resources and if you've never joined or support team today is a great day to do so if you can monthly gift for one-time gift. Either way, however much you can give will send a copy of Lisa's grateful to our way of saying thank you for standing with us on behalf of marriages and hurting individuals donate and get the book. When you click the link in the upper social and on behalf of Jim Daly, and the entire team. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family on John Fuller inviting back is once again help you and your family thrive in Christ, man.

I knew my marriage was falling apart. I just did not affix. I felt like I would always be alone even if I stayed married at Focus on the Family's hope restored marriage intensively offer hope to couples in crisis so they can have a marriage they've always dreamed of. For the first time I felt like my husband truly heard me.

I received some great tools from the counselors of change my life and my marriage to begin the journey of finding health go to hope restored.com today