“This, In Many Ways, Is An Acid Test Of Who We Are As A People.”

This is family policy matter program is produced by the North Carolina family policy Council of profamily research and education organization dedicated to strengthening and preserving the family and up from the studio here is John Rustin, Pres. North Carolina family policy Council, thank you for joining us this week. Profamily policy matters is our pleasure to have Daniel Blomberg with us on the program's legal counsel for the Becket fund for religious liberty, a nonprofit public interest, legal and educational institute whose mission is to protect the free expression of all faith prior to joining the Becket fund Daniel clerk for Chief Justice Alice M.

Bachelder of the US Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit and also formally served as litigation counsel with our friends at alliance defending freedom. Daniel is an attorney for the Becket fund for religious liberty on a critical religious freedom case is currently before the US Supreme Court.

Little sisters of the poor via Burwell and oral arguments are scheduled to begin in this case in March. Daniel is with us today to talk about the Little sisters of the poor case and why it should matter to every person of faith in America.

Daniel welcome the family policy matters.

It's great to have you with us. Great beer as we begin tell us about the Little sisters of the poor who are they and what community do they serve up a little for our 175-year-old order of non-take care of elderly poor people all around the world.

They been in the United States for well over 100 years and they do exactly the same thing here. They do everywhere. They take care of those people that they can't take care of themselves and what else is taken care of and they do it by things like begging to go out and they asked folks to provide them the resources they need the little sister propounded by literally a site St. Jean your God bill in France, noticed an elderly poor woman shivering in the road and she brought that woman to her house gave her her bed, took care of that woman there at her house and that's that that's how the mission must be a way to sisters approached everyone that they serve.

The one thing you hear them say consistently they serve each person as if that person was Jesus Christ himself as an organization like the poor as you said is been around 475 years serving the elderly poor, how did you get involved in a legal battle that is made all the way to the US Supreme Court reluctantly Little sisters tried over and over and over again not to be weather today the federal government proposed rule that would require employer-based healthcare to include abortion inducing drugs and contraceptives on the Little sisters of poor Catholics and they don't think they can be involved in providing those kinds of services. I think that's wrong for them to do that which really isn't a surprise to anyone is familiar with A belief and a lot of other religious believers share very similar belief, which is why a lot of thought non-Catholic Protestant organizations are with the sisters in front of the US Supreme Court. So the sisters went to a government like that over and over again. Please don't force us to be involved in this. Now that the federal government has its own program that is spend hundreds of millions of dollars on every year to give out free contraceptives in the sisters didn't say the government had to stop doing that and the government set up its own healthcare exchanges where it can provide healthcare people all around the country. The sisters didn't save the government couldn't use those things to get out contraceptives, but they said listen, you can't force us to do it that the violation of our religious rights. The violation of federal law. What you can do the other thing, which point of a really important part of this case. That is, the sisters are trying to stop anyone from getting contraceptives. There trying to stop the government forcing them to be involved completely religious based decision that impacts their ministry and their beliefs as far as how they live those beliefs out in their daily lives, and through the ministry that they're participating in right about the Obama care mandate in the affordable care act, as I understand it, there is a religious exemption for churches and church affiliated ministries. Why can't the Little sisters of the poor receive an exemption from the government as opposed to the government imposing this contraceptive mandate on the little sisters what you probably don't want to hold onto your hat for this one, but the government said that the Little sisters of the poor in order of nuns that have been faithfully following the teachings of the Catholic Church, 135 years there not religious enough to get an exemption.

The government says that bishops and other types of ministries that are closely controlled by churches. Those are exempt but the Little sisters of the poor and other kinds of ministries that variety of reasons, both practical and theological are directly controlled by churches.

Those ministries has to provide the drugs. The government says and the government was very candid about this rationale for that. Listen we think the people who work for churches are more likely to share the churches beliefs.

We think those interviews are more religious density but you little sisters you mission agencies and things of that nature.

Your not religious enough which should give any reasonable person significant concern that the government even walk around the first place. Telling people who is religious enough and who's not. And then when you go the next step in there saying the Little sisters of the poor are religious enough lesser concern anything.

Being but it's just amazing.

Now the government argues that the little sisters can simply opt out by using the so-called religious accommodation. It is created.

Explain philosophy will why the little sister, saving us opt out option still essentially requires them to violate their faith. What are the very reason that the federal government been very clear that they want to use the little sisters employer-based healthcare providers.

Drugs like there's no option that the government is providing the sisters that allows them to be treated like churches, which is were going to leave you alone will let you run your ministry the same way you been running it for 175 years and will go do our own thing with her own healthcare plans. Note the federal government insists on using the Little sisters of the poor healthcare plan and insist on forcing the little sisters assigned a piece of paper to give the government permission gives their healthcare providers. Permission to take over the planet and use it to deliver abortion drug wasn't the government doesn't force massive companies like Visa or Chevron and other current is like that to do this at all.

There, the government has exempted that completely infects about one third of American art on healthcare plans are subject to this this Obama care, contraceptive mandate and that is over the government. The camaraderie here safe. But we need you to do this and this is just… That's just not the son through the false statement is being given by the government. In fact there trying to force the sister to take action violates their fate actions. They don't require churches that don't require huge businesses like visa and legally required of themselves. The countries, and indeed the world biggest employer.

The Department of Defense provides for the military, a type of healthcare called TRICARE that doesn't include these drugs on it doesn't include the mandate yet to provide everyone. FDA approved contraceptive and abortion drug Dell into the government gives itself the pastor gives big big businesses like visa past.

It gives big municipalities like New York City or past only comes a little sisters. The poor because you have to knuckle under. You have to obey or literally find you $70 million a year every year many people who are not familiar with the little sisters case might be wondering why the Supreme Court's landmark decision in Hobby lobby and the Conestoga word case does not apply to the Little sisters of the poor and other similarly situated ministries to the Supreme Court basically says that Hobby lobby and these other closely held businesses don't have to provide contraceptives or operate under the contraceptive mandate.

What's the difference explained that forces you will want to work through Goldberg right so the government set up a Rube Goldberg scheme where it says hey were not making you do the thing that we are forcing Hobby lobby. They had to directly put the drugs on the healthcare plans themselves and pay for the drugs you you have to sign a piece of paper that causes the drugs to be on your healthcare plan and will will pay for the sisters or secularism is not about the money without the complicity, forcing us to participate in your scheme to deliver these drugs and were an integral part of that were the ones who make the system got were the at the heart of the scheme and we can't do that. And so the Hobby lobby decision, the Supreme Court issued does very much help a little sisters, the poor, but the government has argued that change the scheme just enough that they should be over force the nuns divided their fate given another not allowed to force the business by like there so do you think the Hobby lobby case is going to be a significant factor releases frequent looking at their opinion in the Hobby lobby case to possibly attempt to remain consistent. To some degree, or do you think I could go often in a completely different direction. Considering the fact circumstances of this case, a bill that will be looking at the Hobby lobby case quite a bit part of the reason for that is the government's arguments. You're so very similar. So the government and the Hobby lobby case and listen, you're not the one who's making anybody use these drugs, right you provide healthcare Plan you pay for the drugs you put drugs on there but you don't know if he might actually use the right so there's speculation. You don't know if you're actually involved in anything bad ever happening was basically what the government things a little sisters. In fact, the government much more derisive about it and told the sisters of their they are there fighting in invisible dragon" language.

Do you look they said the court sisters were fighting invisible dragon they can vanquish with their own pen which is just remarkably derisive and end by going down the same basic argument that hey sisters were not asking you to do anything your face that you can't do and a simple response about the same response that came up the Hobby lobby case of the Supreme Court ruled on Richard government officials don't get to tell religious people what the religious beliefs should be right government official have to respect those beliefs. They don't get to determine them or try to manipulate them or change them now little sisters do not comply with the Obama care mandate what kinds of fonts could they face and what impact would that have on their ability to even continue serving the elderly poor all the government has brought little sisters with fines neighborhood about $70 million a year every year going forward. And I mean you don't have to be a map whether a business major to understand that the very painful, very painful punishment for for ministering to elderly poor people, according to your fate. And what's really important here is that there's a very easy solution right even if you buy as many people do think that the group be the HHS mandate is a great policy that are providing free contraceptives. Countrywide.

That doesn't mean you have to make the sisters get involved absolutely for those of our listeners who may hear about this case and tell her shrug. It also is really only a case, the concerns Catholic ministries how important is the outcome of the little sisters case to religious liberty across this country. Why does it matter to people of faith, why should it matter to people of faith and what's at stake if the little sisters happen to lose this case it's wrong to think that just about. There are dozens of Baptist and Presbyterian and other types of religious ministries and from the Supreme Court standing side-by-side with with a little sisters got Gerhart there are Jewish organizations and Muslim organizations. The file briefs. Thanks. Listen, this is wrong with the government doing school sisters so this is not just a factual matter. This isn't just about Catholic ministries that should be enough for anybody to care about because we don't want the civil rights being crushed brother people further. Just think about it for a second if the federal government can counsel Little sisters of the poor and say listen, you're not religious enough to have your religious beliefs protected under force you to violate a core fundamental well known religious belief, on pain of crushing penalties. All they can do that and none to take care of elderly poor people they can do almost anything to almost any of us right so this gets back to the fundamental basis of religious liberty in any way to get back to the fundamental basis of civil liberty in our society if we are the kind of people that will unnecessarily crush the sincere religious beliefs of folks like a little sister. The pork we will not respect the civil rights of free speech, free association for any number of different types of rights and liberties that we enjoy as a nation. So this comes there is in many ways an acid test of who we are the people as this is something that people really paying attention to baby caring about you to educate themselves about because it will make a big difference on a day-to-day basis for thousands of ministries and millions of people all across our nation well said. I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately Dan were just about out of time for this week, but I want to give you an opportunity to let our listeners know where they can go to learn more about the little sisters of the poor case and also the Becket fund for religious liberty rights over please go to Beckman's website Becket fund.org BEC K ET you in the.org you can see right atop the website on the left-hand side of the button for the little sisters you located tells you all about this case.

Take a look at it. Daniel Blumberg, I want to thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to be with us on family policy matters and for your great work with the Becket fund.

We are in prayer for you with a little sisters of the poor case and were so appreciative of all the work that you do to protect religious liberty across our nation's are at the heart of this family policy matters. Information and analysis, future of the North Carolina family policy Council join us weekly for discussion on policy issues affecting the family. If you have questions or comments, please contact 919-807-0800 or visit our website and see family.org