Navigating the Legalities of Religious Expression during the Christmas Season

I think it's high time that Christians need to realize that we can't be silent. We can look the other way. We can't keep our message boxed up within the four walls of our churches and worship spaces.

This is Stanley policy with NC family Pres. John Weston thanks for joining us this week for family policy matters. As we enter the Advent season in preparation for Christmas. We often are confronted with conflicting and confusing information about the legalities of religious expression during the holidays, even to the point it would seem that some question whether or not it's even permissible to wish others a Merry Christmas in certain public places. Our guest has been on the front lines of this religious liberty debate for the last several years and we are excited to talk with him today about that Thomas Brekke is president and chief counsel of the Thomas more Society of former Army Capt. Tom has spent the last 20 years, leading this national nonprofit public interest law firm which is dedicated to restoring respect for life, religious liberty and family values. In recent years, the Thomas more Society has teamed up American nativity scene committee to provide large nativity scenes at no cost for public display on public property growing number.

They also provide pro bono legal work to defend the legality of these displays necessary on top Brekke welcome to family policy matters right how young the show.

Well that is thrilled to be with you Tom. As we begin our discussion tell our listeners.

If you would about the American nativity scene project and what it's all about John were blessed to have a very very generous benefactor who has agreed in my gosh I think is going on eight or nine years of not 10 years to provide free nativity scenes for folks who are willing to take the lead in the responsibility to request a permit to put them up in public spaces which qualify under the law, and this is the key do it as a traditional or designated public forums and free speech zones is a shorthand way to describe it, and the key idea here is that putting up a nativity scene is another form of free speech government cannot dictate what can and cannot be said in a free speech zone and what we call a public forum and if it's privately sponsored, privately funded it's the same equivalent as if someone set up their soapbox and preach their politics there more. Her whole advocacy is opening up a nativity scene is another form of speech. This is the key.

So it's not government doing it. We don't want government to, you know, sponsor, and we don't want government to take care of the nativity figures in the off-season. It's private clients put up the nativity take care of it, secure it and take it down.

We do ask that people get a carpenter in my gosh there all kinds of church affiliated folks and carpenters who are delighted and honored to build a stable in which these figures can be displayed and ended the ACLU actually has said this is the agreement as its free speech we gathered in the statehouse. The state Capitol in Springfield, Illinois for the last like nine or 10 years, we have one down in Texas. The issue you said that was permissible.

We've had a couple of fights around the country but were trying to put them as many state capitals and other public venues as possible.

And it's a great way to celebrate what is essentially and I'm sure your listeners agreement of a religious celebration, no doubt. Talk about the legal side of this. I know you touched on it but are there some specific legal parameters or do's and don'ts if you will, for the display of nativity scenes in public places or public forums will yes John. The key is to establish a baseline that, in fact, as is the case in most state capitol buildings around the steps that there have been rallies, political rallies, and no other words of the labor union wants to go in there and the teachers union wants to demonstrate against what they deem unfair and this is permitted while that that gives us a foothold because that shows that there is permissible free speech going on in that venue and that makes it what we call a designated public forum and once you establish that baseline then it's discrimination law is what we call viewpoint bias to say that well you can have a labor union advocating for public policy.

But you can't have questions advocating for people to pay their respects to the birth of Christ and celebrated the 2000 years ago and now in our own tax free speech can't be governed as to the content that what is spoken they can put reasonable restraints on the time the place or the manner of the free speech and no you can't have the questions in the statements in the same place at the same time LOL but we want to have our nativity scene there. We want to have a church choir come in could be just a few hours, and one of the beautiful days before the Christmas snow day itself work the company for a week or two weeks you know and it works that this legal theory as I say, has been approved by ACLU representatives they bring with us Tom what range of responses have you received in the states where you have placed nativity scenes, particularly when it comes to governmental entities and elected officials. Well, you know, John. We get a lot of strange responses because there is this miss conception that somehow religion audibly expunged from the public sphere that automate Within the four walls of churches and this is a fiction of falsehood against which, against which we we invade IDs as well as words that mean the whole point of the Christian message is one that audibly proclaimed their loud and clear. I think it's high time that people Christians need to realize that we can't be silent.

We can't look the other way. We can't go off to the NLT bar message boxed up within the four walls of our churches and worship spaces. It's time that we went out in the public square and proclaim the message of the Christ child. Certainly, society needs it and I think that we should get active and proclaim your listening policy matters resource to listen to our radio show online resources that will place a persuasion in your community website family collecting, there always seems to be confusion about what is legal in public schools at this time of year as well. In fact, some people think that schools essentially have to be sanitized of anything relating to faith or religion, give us a brief primer if you will, on what is and is not allowed in public schools when it comes to celebrations of Christmas and the like, well, agile unit, a sure spot there. We we also represented were honored to represent the students for life of America and the we've we've got all kinds of cases around the country were there is an LGBT student club and the Christians come along with the pro-life kids and I want to start a pro-life club that all my evolution of the school administrators. Although no no that's religious you can do that well I guess what the US Supreme Court has said going back decades that first about red should not stop at the schoolhouse door so here to you cannot discriminate as to the content of free speech of the part of students and that we've had very good luck in getting this to administrators to back down. Just my writing letters but complications one in Las Vegas one recently in Allentown, Pennsylvania, where they folks would not agree and so we had to go to court and I want to tell you that once we filed a lawsuit and follow legal papers in both those cases, the administrators also backed off and I think they that's the key to what if the kids want to put up a Christmas display as they students rely put a pro-life displays they should have that right. It's not an establishment of religion by the school district.

It's private speech by students, free speech, and this is something that's private, not public privately funded the parents can back up their kids, and that provides whatever finances are necessary to show in and what a message that Christ child sent something. It's not just a religious message that has secular significance it's showing a family is showing a father that stood by his his wife, Mary. That's what really might've been called a crisis pregnancy back at the very secular authorities come with burying their gifts recognizing the humility of the setting is another message a minute something that really I think our society needs and we shouldn't hold back from having our kids that put up these displays and we should put them up by ourselves and be proud of.

Well, I think what you touchstone is so important for parents and students across our state and across the nation to recognize is that quite often, the administrators may act wrongly out of the complete misunderstanding of the wall, but when that wall is brought to them when it's explained to them in the bill presented with the truth of what students can do legally. They often back down and back down quite quickly so it's important that parents not with the school administrators, teachers, principals, etc., railroad their children, but that they take a stand and go through as we suggest the proper channels the time of the chain of command go to the teacher of the school administrator. The principal, etc. I end up ultimately necessary pursue legal action to stand up for those religious liberty rights. Quite often as you have said of the schools will back down quite quickly when they understand that they are just wall in their actions.

Well, that's right John, but it shouldn't be necessary to be on the farm. This is something that is very America install free-speech part of our constitutional foundation on which this country was started and the key it's not government speech of its government speech not to Be religious but if it's private speech more power. It's free speech, free exercise of religion to parts of the First Amendment and it certainly not only illegal, it's our God-given right, growth and interest. Have you witnessed with respect to the American to the same project and is this project from your perspective getting easier every year, or is becoming more challenging. While the more a precedent sweetly line up John the better off we are meeting we were in Texas were in California. I got up. They allowed this survey be permissible elsewhere were in Illinois. They weren't where were up about 1314 or 15 states where Georgia and Atlanta. You know, so frankly it's just the only limit so far has been our time and can't be everywhere. But the more we can promote those other people can take up the cause as well.

It's not something that we own, but would be happy to do whatever we can. As time and resources permit to help folks. I think ultimately will aim for all 50 state capitals and I hope every public venue in the United States were pulling up in Ferguson Missouri. After all the trouble they have their it goes from church to church in Ferguson so the Christian message is at least proclaim their healing message for this wonderful season of ours and we hope will be everywhere well that's great in combat leads into my last question before we conclude our conversation but what can our listeners do and where can I go to learn more about the American nativity scene project and all the good work of the Thomas more Society well they concocted a class were the lawyers Thomas more Society.org or American nativity scene and O'Malley up. Jim Finnegan, if our clients time is running out, I guess, but I think they can still manufacture and ship nativity shortly down to North Carolina and you know how many shopping days till Christmas.

I thought that we can strap for the nativity scene and met up time for somebody to put together a stable and let's hope we can do as much of this as we can because it's a message that is the greatest story ever told them that was the beginning of the nativity. What what best message to put out this time of year and without Thomas wreck. I want to thank you so much for being with us on family policy matters and for your great work defending religious freedom across America. Thanks very much, is a joy to be with you proclaim this message again on your station policy matter, production, and only listen to our maintenance shall online resources and information about issues important to families in Carolina website on Facebook