Keeping The Government Out of America's Pulpits

Government has no business intruding into the pulpits of America to decide what pastors can and cannot say this is family policy matters. Focus on faith. Edition Thomas grandpas to each director for NC family join us once a month is pastor Graham shine some light on the intersection between our Christian faith and engaging our culture weeks before. Today I would like to have as my guest. Carlos could prove the important role faithful individuals and organizations play in our country.

Eric's family serves as senior counsel, a director of the Center for Christian ministries for the alliance defending freedom, more commonly known as ADF. I'm grateful to have Eric on the show today to discuss what is often a confusing, complicated and misunderstood topic for many active religious organizations. I'm speaking of course about the Johnson amendment welcome to family policy matters. It's great to have you on the show today well it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me on.

Absolutely Eric on this program I would typically like to begin with personal stories because we know that well we know that our culture or society our government, our communities are all compilation of individual stories and experiences. So if you would just take a few moments and share some of your your own story, you may be about your childhood or your marriage, family, and particularly those experiences that have shaped your faith into the motivating factor that is in your work today) in I came to Christ at a very early age in the young boy and when we were growing up in East Texas at the time my parents were homeschooling my sister and I and I remember at the time that homeschooling then was illegal in the state of Texas and we had seen some stories and heard stories of families who have been split apart because they are just chosen homeschool their children as much as a matter of their religious principles, and that that sat with me as a young man young boy really hope that with me in and I just thought you know this is wrong and as I developed in my face in Christ didn't really thought what the Lord's will was for my life just felt very clear call to say you know use the talents and gifts of God. It's given me to really write those injustices to right the wrongs but most importantly to really use the legal system to keep the door open for the gospel because that's really what my parents were wanting to do was to train us up in the gospel and in the way of the Lord and so so by God's grace. That's what I've been able to do for almost the last 20 years. Now it's been it's been a true blessing. Please tell us a little bit about how you came to be involved in the very specific and vital mission of ADF and why that work is so important for not just your individual client but also for our entire nation as well (yet ADF has been around since the early 90s and we were formed by a group of leaders. Christian leaders Larry Burr Capt. James Dobson and until Brighton others who came together really for the sole purpose of creating an organization that in their minds would be kind of the anti-ACLU in America, but it was really Dr. Bill Bright, center campus Crusade for Christ that that distilled ADF mission down to really one sentence.

He said ADF. Your mission is to keep the legal door open for the spread of the gospel and so that's what we been doing since the early 90s is really finding ways to take on cases and use the legal system to keep the door open for the gospel.

All for the purpose that that's really the only thing that can change our culture and our nation is that when the gospel can be freely proclaimed and when people whose lives have been changed by the Holy Spirit can live out the gospel freely in their lives and follow Christ fully in their lives. That's when our nation can change when people's hearts can turn to the Lord.

And so that's what we been doing and I've been focusing up at ADF here for the last 10 years I was with a different group doing religious liberties work before that time, for the last 10 years have really been focusing on the church and on religious ministries really hoping to have emboldened and help protect the church and its pastors to speak freely and an end to proclaim the gospel freely to to provide that legal space so that the church could just be the church and minister the gospel freely. Ergot really resonates so deeply within my own heart.

Part of my story is that I was privileged and blessed to be a pastor of three churches over a 32 or three year period of time and that I was frequently in discussions with others about the Johnson amendment and about its impact upon religious freedom and upon pastors and churches and so forth and I don't one particular area of law about which you know a great deal and have some excellent insight is of course the Johnson amendment.

This deals with the intersection of faith in public life, and some very tangible ways. For starters, could you just explain what is the Johnson amendment and what impact does it have on the activities of religious Americans today. Sure had the job and admitted the last sentence of section 501(c)(3) of the tax code and it basically says that nonprofit entities including churches cannot participate in or intervene in political campaigns on behalf of or in opposition to any candidate for public office.

It was not a part of the tax code until 1954 when Lyndon Johnson was running for reelection to the U.S. Senate from the state of Texas and he was being opposed by two very powerful secular nonprofits that believed he was soft on communism. They were passing out thousands of pieces of literature against him and interposing his candidacy, and so on July 2, 1954 Johnson being a very powerful senator knew how to work the levers of power showed up on the floor of the Senate and proposed this last sentence of section 501(c)(3) opponent proposed it as an amendment to a massive tax overhaul bill that the Senate was considering and it went into law of the Senate passed it with a voice vote and it went in the lawn. Pres. Eisenhower signed it on August 16, 1954 and what ended up happening then if the IRS became the primary enforcer of the Johnson amendment and what it is done over the years has morphed into really a speech code that applies to all nonprofits bits but especially churches to have to tell pastors that they cannot say anything from the pulpit that might in any way, even indirectly support or oppose a candidate for office. And you know there's a lot of churches and pastors that believe that will be a pastor shouldn't be endorsing candidates from the pulpit and an accounting which is fine and I understand that. I think what a lot of Americans don't understand though a lot of churchgoers don't understand is that as the IRS is even taken as far to say that if your pastor talked about issues in a way that could be seen as favoring one candidate over another, or if your pastor opposes a particular candidate for office because of his immorality.

Your stance on biblical issues, then that's enough to violate the Johnson amendment and give the IRS the power to come in and to revoke the church's tax-exempt status and it is. It's a massive overreach of government power. It was unconstitutional when it was passed in 1954.

It's unconstitutional now have federal law has not allowed anybody to challenge it until this point, and so it we really try to draw attention to the Johnson the men over the years and highlight its unconstitutionality and seek for ways to have it be changed because it does work a really substantial what I call a chill on the free speech of America's pastors when it comes to anything that intersects with an election cycle. You're listening to policy matters of resource to listen to our radio show online resources that will be a voice of persuasion in your community to our website only alleging well, you know, I recall being a pastor and having multiple discussions with colleagues in ministry and because there was at that time of great uncertainty about just how far-reaching this amendment was rebutted that I associate with. For many of the people that are associated with tended just to err on the side of extreme caution and I suppose that you could equate the Johnson amendment in that respect is sorghum a muzzling device to keep pastors from openly sharing their thoughts about matters of particular concern to their people.

Would you agree, I absolutely would agree. I think that it and I had the weight of the IRS is interpreted and enforced the Johnson amendment has really resulted a lot more in fear and intimidation factor over the years, as opposed to any type of measured enforcement through the court system, it's impossible for somebody to sue the IRS right now and say the Johnson amendment is unconstitutional.

You need to have it actually applied against the church, the IRS to levy a penalty and then for the church to challenge that is unconstitutional while that hasn't happened. And the reason it hasn't happened since 1954 is because most churches just do what is the easiest thing which is to just be very quiet and very silent about anything having to do with candidates or an election on or anything like that but as an example, you where you fall on the political spectrum are on the spectrum of whether pastor should endorse candidates for the pulpit or not. I personally know a lot of pastors over the last election cycle that felt very clear to oppose a certain candidate from the pulpit because of immorality because of the stance on biblical issues, whatever that whatever it might be in an and by that I mean you know both. Either Mrs. Clinton or Pres. Trump and you know see you look at that and you think well those pastors felt compelled to say something to their congregations about that in and that's been the history over the years is that pastors you before 1954 did speak out on these things, but after 1954 would only do it in really extreme circumstances, but there has been a very chill on on the speech of pastors of backing away from from saying anything that would maybe draw an IRS audit in our message to pastors has been clear for the last 10 years or so really we've been saying to pastors, pastors, you have a right constitutional right to speak freely from the pulpit and you shouldn't be intimidated or silenced by the government.

When you do so, the government has no business intruding into the pulpit of America to decide what pastors can and cannot say. So we've offered for any church or any pastor who is in any way punished by the IRS for something it's pastor says from the pulpit that ADF will represent them free of charge and we will launch a constitutional challenge against the Johnson amendment and seek to have it overturned because we really do believe that pastors need to have that right to speak freely restored not have to worry about whether the IRS is come knocking on their door. Erica so well said, what would you say is the most important thing for pastor or church or any religiously motivated ministry to know about the Johnson amendment and its effect on their work. I would just say the most important thing to know is that it's unconstitutional that you know when they when they hear the messages from the IRS or from others that all you better not say that from the pulpit or you better not do that at a church function. The message they need to understand is that the Johnson amendment is unconstitutional.

Our government, our Constitution has set up and away that there is a healthy separation of church and state, which means that the government stays on its side of the wall and doesn't intrude on into the internal affairs of the church and specifically doesn't intrude and what pastors can can say from the pulpit at that. The healthy separation of church and patient. So what the Johnson amendment does is it violates that you and Anna are encouragement of pastors is very simple.

Don't worry about the intricacies of it.

Don't worry about you. Where is the line where isn't the line you worry about saying what God is put on your heart and what God is called you to say and know that ADF is good to be there to back you up.

Now that we will be there to help protect your constitutional right to do that so I just to two messages speak freely know the Johnson minutes unconstitutional and have ADF's number and stay connected to us love that Eric was just sort of sense that there's listeners to this program, you just heard that and suddenly a surge of strength just poured into their heart and mind.

So thank you for that Eric work. Our listeners go to learn more about the Johnson amendment as well as the good work that you all are doing alliance defending freedom to protect the first freedoms of Americans to practice and live out their faith. Where should they go where they can go to our website@adflegal.org and I'll give you a special website specifically for churches. It's the ADF Church Alliance.org ADF Church Alliance.org. That's a specific place the churches can go to plug into what we're doing specifically with churches and to really stay connected ADF on a very consistent basis so ADF Church Alliance.org is is where you get all that information. Excellent. Will Eric, thank you so very very much for being with us today on family policy matters. I'm so grateful for the wonderful work that you are doing at this intersection of faith in public life.

May God bless you and all the other attorneys of good people working with alliance defending. Thanks so much as it is my pleasure to be here listening to policy matters focus on addition production family to listen to our radio show online, and for more valuable resources and information about issues and to families in North Carolina go to our website and see family.org and follow us on Twitter and Facebook