Kevin DeYoung: Men and Women in the Church

I love to preach from Exodus 1 the story of Moses birth get the Hebrew midwives who are hiding the kids away from Pharaoh and then you have Moses his mom is no hiding Moses away in the baskets and then Moses his sister is following along in the Pharaoh's daughter is going to raise him. So you have in that opening chapter as far as we can see all of redemptive history is hanging in the balance, is this child Moses gonna make it and who is advancing the plan of redemptive history in that first chapter.

It's all women doing what looking after kids and some of them didn't have kids and all of them with that desire to care for, provide for protect love children is what in that moment move for God's plan of redemptive history and God still still does that. Welcome to family life today where we want to help you pursue the relationship that matter most and nothing Dave Wilson and you can find us@familylifetoday.com or on our family life.

This is my life today so over 30 years ago I started a ritual. Yeah, that at the time I thought I would do for maybe a year, absolute hell you're talking about fasting for fasting and praying on Fridays for my sons lives there were little babies and toddlers at the time, but now they're grown men and their married and what things I prayed every Friday was further why yeah I know who they were. Their names and now they're married to these three amazing women all in their strong aren't they. They are strong. Their amazing yeah I mean there beyond what I even prayed for God in such a I really want to try to sit here and say the Wilson family is perfect in our kids or grandkids are perfect but I can't imagine them marrying better women there incredible. I think as I look at them and I realize how much influence they have over our sons. He now like a really kind of help shape our sons yeah and so today we get to talk about, you know, sort of what a man and a woman, a husband-and-wife look like in marriage. We got Kevin DeYoung back with us today of family life. Welcome back Philip today Kevin, great to be here come the young is a pastor in North Carolina you're an author of over 20 books you're a seminary professor reformed theological seminary, and most importantly your husband of over 20 years and a dad and nine.

Did I say nine yes nine kids so Kevin yesterday was so fine as you talk about your oldest daughter who is 14 and she described her as this strong like you think she could take care of the entire household and running so just like if you could fast forward 20 years and she's 34 and she's married.

Why do you hope to see her doing in her marriage because it would be if she lost that strength in the name of submission will this sounds to be old-fashioned or cliché, but I really hope with the Lord blesses her with marriage and with children that first of all, she is a godly mom and we can set that aside survey yeah but what you really doing yeah and I always want to be because it we need to push back against our culture. This always want to be highlighting what women do as mother.

Sometimes we talk about men and women, especially conservative and I'm a conservative evangelical. We talk about well here are some things that men do that women don't to move their pastors or their leaders in the home and I had a woman say will that's true. I believe that, but don't forget to talk about the most important thing that women do that men don't do, namely that they can give birth to a human being that's that's amazing.

We have the ability to change the future attentively time how we are parenting our kids yeah that's heavy and weighty so I would want my 20 my daughter's grown daughter someday to it. I don't want them to think that's all that defines them for sure is that they can't do anything else. Of course, not in the be strong and they'll have all sorts of other passions and maybe they'll have places of employment or not, but in so far as they are, wife, mom, caring for kids to see that they are doing what is at the very heart, not the periphery.

At the very heart of God's plan.

I love to preach from Exodus 1 the story of Moses birth get the Hebrew midwives who are hiding the kids away from Pharaoh and then you have Moses his mom is no hiding Moses away in the baskets and then Moses his sister is following along and then she gets things hooked up in the Pharaoh's daughter is going to raise him.

So you have in that opening chapter as far as we can see all of redemptive history is hanging in the balance, is this child Moses gonna make it and who is advancing the plan of redemptive history in that first chapter.

It's all women doing what looking after kids and some of them didn't have kids. Yeah, yeah it should front pool. It's Moses's mom is Moses's sister Pharaoh's family. All of them with that desire to care for, provide for protect love children is what in that moment move for God's plan of redemptive history and got still still does that say anything you look at Mary yes/as you look at Elizabeth with John and so he continues to do that and I and I think that I've heard you say this may times many moms right now.

Don't see themselves like that because her at home. They got kids its drudgery. It feels like we're doing nothing or doing nothing.

You said that cleaning I like I used to have a life. Now I'm just at home and you pull back you go, you are being used by God to raise up the next generation of warriors for Christ. I know it's easy to say, sit here when you're in the middle that you don't see that but that is really what God has called you and is gifted you to do it its own unique privilege and not to feel embarrassed by it, not to feel ashamed that for this season of your life is your main ministry and you have other things that's wonderful. But think about it. Okay I want to sign up in a minute to get a discipling relationship with some other that's great and we can have spiritual children, which is a blessing you are to have no bigger impact than on your own children. They are learning not just what you say but what you do and thankfully by God's grace. I forget a lot of what they see you, but the overall love and nurture and support that they get.

I think every parent would agree that nothing shapes us more than being a mom or dad shows us our weaknesses. It shows us our frailties and it shows us our need for Jesus. Yeah, here's another question. If God was going to choose how the Wilson households should function roles.

He probably would've put and in charge rather than Dave because she just has a natural leadership gift. I mean, it's interesting. I'm a quarterback. Those are leaders right yet in many ways. She has a stronger leadership gift that I did but that's not what he he did so we didn't base our our home.

Based on our personality or our wiring based more on the word of God and what he's called us to be and do what's right about that was wrong, but that will only what's absolutely right is we need to base our roles based on what God's word says and we do have a tendency to fall into what our personalities are. That's okay so you know we have fairly traditional roles in that I'd do more. Outside stuff to mow the lawn and get my boys to mow the lawn, but then also you might my daughter said hey sit on that riding lawnmower.

I want to do thou, hello my mind for me. I love it. I know yeah you can you can do that sort of thing you can do that. But you're right because a lot of people listening to this will say what you just said that's, you know, doesn't fit our personalities.

Here's were not helped by our culture. Listing of movies and entertainment are entertainment presents one kind of strength usually in. Here's the blurring of male and female happens in our movies the old movies. The female heroine was too often just a damsel in distress. Maybe she didn't have her own agency and just there to be rescued and I get how women say that's kinda lame but now like if you're gonna be a woman strong woman. Well, you're gonna be this certain body type which is unrealistic. But somehow, even though you're like 100 pounds and in 6 feet tall.

You still can kick any guys rear-ended and cracked their neck and you can kill people. It's only one view of strength.

Kevin I have to tell you this as a side note, before you can tonight all as you know, the movie is a woman and you think it just work out enough or whatever itself we go home after watching one of these marble move. Yeah, right, and I tell date like that I can take you down everywhere in our little workout room and she says that I come intently alike. So you're not yeah, I can take you down like no chance girl I try with all my heart I do this and I was laughing so hard laying on the floor because I couldn't even come close to visit like a strongman. It's just like the dissolution string is what they're portraying yes right is impossible yeah and it's one view. So that's why would we think strong or leader. We think there's just one way to do it we can.

We don't have very many cultural depictions of someone who's quiet or introverted or reserved or biblical meekness, and yet there is there some of the strong absolutely right yet is there immovable in their moral fortitude in their ethical courage and that's what we need to show and that's hopefully what we were displaying in our churches and in our homes. It is really important question because I've had women who say finite life. I've struggled with this kind of vision of submission because I'm loud and I have minimum of opinions and I like to lead things and okay some of that maybe does need to be refined and all of us got us in saying you can't have opinions or you can't be stronger you can't be loud to be a godly woman there's a way to them race that role is supporting your husband last thought that comes to my new it's easy to almost would want to make fun of God's word.

But you know the passage that and Sarah called Abraham Lord yeah yeah and you are really okay there some cultural ways, but you were saying earlier episode that if women don't know where to start. Pray when the other things to do is often our hearts and our attitudes follow our words is not hypocrisy. To start with our words or something instructive. Sarah called Abraham. Lord, I'm not so you call Lord that's not cultural marker but for some marriages just by starting again to say honey dear babe, whatever those terms of endearment.

Maybe your marriage is gotten cold or or stale. You don't say that or you don't feel like you can respect your husband start speaking those things I think that's one of the reasons the verse is there that Sarah was saying the sort of things she needed to say as a godly woman and that's what a wife can do no matter what her personality is, and that builds up the husband and the husband of course can do similar things in the reverse way but God calls us to live out this plan and this design according to his word, not according to rigid stereotypes.

And I would just say you know we didn't live out our roles in our marriage. Based on our wiring. We lived it out based on God's calling and it was the best way to go, no question, and you are still strong and you still are a strong woman, but it forced me to go. Okay, step up and be the loving sacrificial leading serving caring husband that she deserves the way God called me to be and so I became a better man because I sent him a lien in to that role because God's call is to think that it did to me is it made me go before my father who loves me and you made me the way I am and broken by all means that even to be submissive before the father asked him, Lord, shy say anything and learn if I should say at what should I say and how should I say that has been one of the greatest helps for me and that has been my strength over the years. Not that I have that Jesus gives that to me wisdom and that David and Wilson with Kevin DeYoung on family life to a friend here David and reflect on this week's conversation about men and women in just a minute. The first family life believe God's design for marriage and family isn't some old-fashioned kind of fun killing book, but that it's good true beautiful design. If you're passionate about more people catching that kind of vision for family, would you consider partnering with family life to all this week with your donation of any amount we want to send you Kevin DeYoung's book, men and women in the church. That's our thanks to you when you give this week@familylifetoa.com or when you call with your donation at 800-358-6329.

That's 800 F peasant family L as in life and in the word today. Right now, back to David and and their thoughts on this week's conversation about men and women okay so just finished interviewing Kevin DeYoung and you know talking to him about roles in marriage and I know you are a little concerned about husband's leading and wise submitting super nervous about it. Actually I think even at the beginning of the interview I sounded nervous and I could even get some of my questions out crazy you are that nervous because I'm feeling for my sisters.

You know that are listening can make me teary because it's hard. I think as women we want to follow God. We want to do what he's called us to do, but were in circumstances that can be really difficult. We can have husbands that are just maybe they they say they love Jesus but they're not initiating or not doing anything spiritually to help us or to help the kids and so were thinking I can have a godly life.

But what is that look like now. I just want to name all the time and we have other women that you know their husbands are just not involved at all zero spiritually as well and I feel so lonely and lost. And so then to have a messages that you need to submit. I get worried about women perceiving that is something that's a burden instead of a gift again. I mean yeah and I know you've also felt like if we don't understand submission correctly, you lose your voice and he has a great women's fear and I feel like I have lost my voice a little bit because I was so committed to wanting to walk with Jesus for a long time I thought to be submissive meant to be signed to voice anything except shaking my head and agreeing with the man, but you don't believe that anymore, but you still feel like you've lost your voice with them and now I feel like my voice is coming back, but I'm not as strong as I used to be in that I think in being based on based on what used to be like, and so I think I want women to embrace how God is made, then that is made them on purpose for a purpose and to look at that uniqueness and their guests and their strengths and maybe some of those.

I liked what we talked about saying that sometimes some of the strongest women are those that are quiet or who persevere or to continually just go before God because there's an incredible strength in those women.

And then there's other women are so loud and they've heard here too much really too much and I see those women feel like they have no place in the church and God is saying, you have a really important place in my church as part of me thinks you didn't lose your voice because of a misunderstanding of submission think I was too strong and I quietly did you not think you did well. You may not think that time when you told me not to initiate prayer as a woman.

At first now I'm just thinking back, there are many moments you regret it would take back is the thing I love about you is your strength and your your incredible leadership gifts and initiating and being strong. I will love that. And yet I did wield it well a lot now just turn the hexagon.

I live in an apology and you will let I think I had time I feel like I often squelch that not in the name of submission or any biblical role. I just felt like that and I want to be the man I should be the man that I didn't allow you to flourish as an equal partner.

The notes on me when he think that what it looks like tell.

I think we live in now. I think it was some of it was growing up.

Some of those immaturity in my part. Some of it was misunderstanding of Scripture thinking that submission meant quiet silent yeah no voice that is that at all because I do remember thinking there must not be a place for me at church because I'm not a quiet and submissive type of personality and maybe God doesn't have a place for me because I used to feel more comfortable in guy settings.

You know, or ice to feel more comfortable talking about the war movie system with love and I just felt like I'm so weird so I think that for us as women to know, like God sees you and is so thrilled with the way he made you now let me. Had we all have our brokenness.

I think sometimes I need to be strong because of my own pain at the past and down my dad telling me that you have to be a leader in every situation, not realizing that sometimes the greatest leaders just sat back and listened at the St. I think we talked about it in the interview a Kevin you want to get away from the stereotype yeah of all may look like this. All women look like this and I think a lot of times in the church we promoted that stereotype men are strong women are soft and you know what men can be soft and amicably strong. And God made him to be there. Still, unique femaleness and maleness, but it doesn't look a certain way. It doesn't wear the same outward appearance. It's a beautiful beautiful designed by God to be who you are and yet he calls us to distinct roles in our marriages. One of the things I've loved doing that girlfriends is will sit in a circle and will to speak life over each other. You know I mean like we just look at each head and say this is what I seen you like you have the shepherd's heart is incredible like one of my friends like you call me every single day and asked me how are you really doing or someone else's. Like the most organized like I need to get this stuff done. She's administrative.

She runs her home really like that like her kids are really organizing and so just to speak life to one another like fetus greatness in you because I don't think we cared enough is women. I bet you feel that men are probably even more like that. Men rarely passing saying there's an insecurity in this do not even want to do it to another man.

Really it's it's ridiculous. We should and we wanted and we long for it, but I as I hear you say that the world would look like for family to do it, sit in the family room and go around speak life. I think it's to their dad consider mom mom says to the kids you been listening to Dave and Anna on family life to a they've been talking this week with Kevin DeYoung's book is called men and women in the church and will send you a copy when you give any amount today@familylifetoa.com. We got a special treat of having family life's president David Robbins with us today. David tell us about what's been on your heart, as you've been reflecting about who we are as the ministry of family life as we reach this halfway point in the calendar year just makes me reflect a little bit pause and it pulls me up to what were all about family life and what we want to keep bringing to you every day and that's our mission. Our mission statement that's been around for decades is effectively developing godly families who change the world one home at a time and we want you to know that we are committed to continuing doing everything we can to effectively end the practical and biblical ways bring you grace and truth that helps you grow as a godly family and I pray that you're experiencing that I'm so grateful for the team that worked so hard to do that. But as you experience the truth of God's word and the transformation in your own life. Our hope and desires that God would draw you to actually go impact your corner of the world to be someone that changes the world one home at a time you been called to the place that you're living with the neighbors that you have in the community that you live in and the church is that you're connected to to have an impact for God's kingdom and we love playing a small part in helping you impact the homes around you. So thank you for being a faithful listener, and a part of family life yet is a good word thank you so much for making what we do. Possible here at family life tomorrow.

David and Wilson along with Ron deal are going to be talking with me actually about how monumental it was for me to gain a stepfather when I was young.

That's tomorrow on behalf of David and Wilson. I'm Shelby Abbott will see you back next time for another edition of family life to family life to his action of family life accrued ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most