Sexually Broken: Tough Conversations with Culture

So Dave what you think are the top three issues that we as followers of Jesus. We just need help and how to think in dialogue about this, especially with her kids. Welcome to family life today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most and Wilson Wilson. You can find us if it we live today.com or on our family life is family life today. Pornography, not just men it was just men. It's still in my were a lot of men but that's its women as well, homosexuality, or the whole LGBT question in how you respond to that and we put our time today to get into a but even transgender same sex attraction, but even a gender dysphoria. The whole I mean every day I see in I should be on social media everyday but I'm there watching what people are dialoguing about and those seem to be rising to the top and I think his parents as I talked to, especially moms.

These are the issues that they're not sure how to talk to their kids about it because we haven't faced it as much as we are in this culture today that I tell you, there's got to maybe board will talk to about this more than Dr. Shawn McDowell and Shawn have you here as a dad as an apologist as a man with a doctorate in these kind of questions and just written a book of all things written you written a lot about apologetics, and this was more apologetics but it's in the area of love, sex and relationships in a confused culture affect I just gave you the subtitle was chasing love, which is what every one of us is doing every second of our lives and now were trying to help our young people understand that in a confused culture. So, welcome back. It's going be great to have a discussion with you about those topics. Well thanks for have me back and I what I would echo what you're saying that whenever I talk with students and open up for questions.

The top two or three are about sexuality and typically something related to the LGBT Q conversation so let's talk about yeah you put that in your book. I made a lot of us. You know I've written and it's like I don't know if I'm going there you're going there and you have chapters on those when I can build a two to get into all of them so I would tell her listener get the book and even get the nine week Bible study are nine session sure that Dave would say share that I can use this as a Bible study. Even if your mom share this podcast with your friends talk about it maybe did a study together bring some of your kids and I think it's really good and I want to shine before we end it at some point you talk about your YouTube channel. Oh sure, and also answer podcast listening in on the skull, think biblically, it's out of bile University and there's a lot of overlap with what you do here. We talk about culture, worldview, theology, and just try to equip people to defendant know their beliefs. Would this be something good for like high school kids listen to college kids high school, college kids spent a lot more time in YouTube and they do listening to podcasts yeah but for those that listen to podcasts that are the same length of this 25, 30 minutes we jump right into content and talk about the thorniest yet most important topics of our day.

From a biblical perspective hard so I'll play like a devils advocate, Shawn. You know, I don't think porn is a big deal and I I watch it by the way listener.

I don't know what you know a young typical man or woman they say you know it's not that harmful, you have some myths in your book about it. Yeah, how would you answer a date and more more couples are saying and we watch it as a couple, you know, it really helps us in my therapist has even recommended every hearing this from Christian couples or you hearing this from non-Christian compass. I've heard it from a few new Christians who haven't heard any touching on it. So a new Christian would be different than a non-Christian was one of things we don't want to do new Christians go. What's the matter with you. Porn is wrong.

Jesus clear like there's discipleship and there's growth and there's time that we need to allow new Christians to develop into so if this new Christian couple said that to me. I'd say tell me a little bit more about yourself telling about your relationship with your wife. How does she feel when you look at this. I just I would kinda be on an information gathering.

They might say oh she's find that I said you really if you really asked her that and sat her down because I'm suspicious that a lot of wives would say that they might acquiesce agree, but probably ideally don't. So I would start there and not also go to Scripture. I'd say if you ever thought about. I know you're new to the faith.

Have you spent a lot of time thinking about what God's design for sex is and the plan from Genesis all the way through Scripture.

Have you thought about that very much.

After new Christians. Maybe not then you can take him to the text taken Genesis 1 taken in Matthew 19 gathering bingo which I don't.

I don't want to just start with. Here's why it's bad for you because the bigger question is, are we honoring God with our bodies is regulating our conversation only with with a Christian.

Okay, I would take him to Scripture and I would that the problem with consequences, especially the young people as they feel like you know if they're looking at porn.

The way you describe.

They feel like well I'm the exception. It doesn't affect me so it's not as effective as you think it could be naked, share stories of people and say you know what I actually talk to the couple that were young, married, and they said the same thing. Are you curious where they are now five years later, having sat where you sat and are you open to what their thoughts would be back to themselves, saying the very things you said to me, so I might go that direction. Yeah, but I'm leery just with the consequences things I'm removing a kid and my dad was talk about STDs on like well I haven't had sex. My girlfriend hasn't had sex so neither of us to get an STD.

I can explain checked out think that writing like happen to know. That's why I start off the book by saying the bigger question is, was mean to love God. What is it mean to love other people is pornography honoring to those people.

Is it honoring to God. Is it honoring to your spouse to be looking at somebody else naked.

These are really fair questions that I would lovingly and graciously try to get these couples to think through your you're going to tell your kids or tell anybody. It's wrong. It's bad because it hurt you to love God and love others were not inherently be holy because I am holy.

That's why it's not for the consequences. It's not to get something from God, don't have sex so you get a reward of great sex later or great you know babies later.

That's not what it's for.

To be holy as I am holy. And God has called us the greatest commandment is love God and love other people how we act in terms of sexuality is simply an extension of the larger question of discipleship.

Who are we, what's my life about what is it mean to love people and things you said in your book was that research indicates that porn use contributes to many non-Christians leaving their faith. It does is that while Tyson can really sure about this. My dad in 2016 commissioned a huge study with the Barna research group called the porn phenomena. What they found is as Christian students increasingly looked at pornography. It would decrease their belief in the authority of the Scriptures you could almost see a direct correlation really know exactly wise a little tougher to figure out. But when somebody's looking at pornography. It is directly opposed to a biblical view of sex, love and marriage. The Bible says keep married. The marriage bed pure and honor it. Hebrews 13 for what is pornography, do it's all about premarital sex or extramarital marital sex life yourself. Do what feels good so if somebody looks at pornography. It teaches them to use people as objects for their own gain. It teaches the opposite of self-control. It teaches live for what feels good but those are totally opposed to Scripture that says no, actually, restraint and self-control is good. Don't use people love people.

So even though people don't connect those dots looking at pornography undermines the confidence that actually God's design is good and it still relevant today and it applies to my life now you feel like trying to remember if I am getting this right from here and your dad again when I was in college say something like, and you'll know if there's even accurate. But what you just said made me think along these lines, I remember him saying something like, often went to my comes up to me with an intellectual question about the faith it's usually a smokescreen for more of a moral issue again. It may may not be that think anything but do you find that often that you know like you just said the porn uses has contributed to walk away from faith is not an intellectual.

I don't believe in God anymore its moral and it has a way of desensitizing our soul in a sense I think when people are questioning God. It sounds more sophisticated to cash it in intellectual terms, but underneath that is often relational brokenness, emotional brokenness, just volitional. My will.

It's my life right think of songs as my life. I did it my way and rising often times there is a moral component as well. So that's why for me in evangelism and spiritual conversation. I'm often thinking what's the question behind the question I had a young man tell me what time.

Yes we all his questions about God. He goes honestly, he goes here's the deal.

I think Jesus God, but I am texting right now a whole bunch of different girls that hook up with.

Why would I give that up for some belief. That's true for every atheist.

That would be a very unfair stereo yeah but it's certainly true sometimes and we realize we can't separate belief that God exists in the Bible is true from how we live because Jesus said you were bought with a price honor God with your bodies. You are not your own people realize that we believe about the Bible is going to play itself out in your relationship is interesting to think you know if if if a person's listen right now they're struggling with porn. One things that you just highlighted is due or woman.

Be very careful.

You think this is a porn struggle. This is a faith struggle right there so there's a possibility.

This is going to lead you if you keep you know you think about this. This area my life.

It's this sexual thing, but it could write everything you know it's interesting, there's a big study by Oxford.

I can picture the cover of the book's last name was. Have to double check it and he talked about how even pornography contributes to young people questioning and leaving their faith. It's one piece so we'll talk what kids have doubt neither faith or broken relationships become an elephant in the room is the more somebody looks at pornography. The less confidence they have in the Christian narrative less confidence they have and sometimes it's intellectual sometimes it's experiential kids are told they confess your sins and Jesus will take that temptation away they go to the altar and then the next day or that night there feel a temptation falling to sin again asked for forgiveness go to the altar again, it becomes a cycle and that eventually kids like this doesn't work maybe Christian is false. I can't live this tension. I more free if I just embrace a different worldview. How is typical so hard to say typical I can just say I have heard that narrative many times and I see it a lot. How exact, and I don't know, but it's definitely common for many young people we just teach at a cheap grace and don't talk about real discipleship and really it's grace. This can help somebody through a porn addiction. Yeah when they realize Jesus covers their shame and doubt are any any temptation to menu. We all know this when you play with something in the dark.

It can affect all areas of your life. I might've shared as a reformer that just made me think of a good buddy of ours, Dan Orlowski was a quarterback for Eliza came to Christ now is on ESPN. It is a brand-new Christian that is not now, but back at us when he was in Detroit over a decade, 15, 20 years ago is married with three fork is now three triplets and a little girl LOL sweet guy baptize them. Just amazing. He into did their wedding anyway.

He's a brand-new Christian and he's coming out of of NFL quarterback lifestyle girls and parties and he's with his buddy Mike furry whose farther along the way. In his Christian walk. Mike's driving the car Dan Sitton over here here this the next day Mike looks over and dance get to phones it looks or goes in to cell phone switch with pretty typical radio because our guys would have assembled all on a separate life right and so Mike looks over and sees Dan has these two he's got one is handy, full of 00 so yeah will is my phone.

I make calls business. You know my phone I my girls and Michael's all. Hey let me see it he picks it. He hands it over to Michael's for private data is that your old life you can't you can't live in both worlds. In the end, Dan is the guide tells the story because it like I had no idea how right he was any love love that Mike did like what rate that's wrong.

I shouldn't do that with this great discipleship ministry is a porn or whatever temptation it is when you have a very, very careful. Okay, so burning question our culture right now is the LGBT Q question. How is as follows, or Christ do we deal with this. How do we love one another. We understand with our kids and understand to him first and we had to the kids is start young men I get heartbreaking emails almost like weekly if not daily for parents like my kids 17 and all sudden they came out of the race.

This narrative what I do. And of course I don't say this, I want to say where you talk with your kids when they were eight and they were 10 and they were 12. These conversations start early. That's the first thing is the same thing.

Well stuff to model for our kids.

What this looks like when I found more people that feel like either you're a jerk and your bigot and you take the biblical view or you have to be affirming and change the biblical narrative to love somebody and course a lot of people in our culture will say that I found that doesn't have to be the case.

Jesus believed in truth, very pert firmly but was a loving and gracious towards people who are outside the faith. So that's the trick for our kids is just say here's what Scripture teaches.

Here's why.

Now how do we lovingly lived this out with other people. One thing I would say to parents is just be careful about. If you hear a song if you watch a TV show and say a gay couple comes up. Be careful how you talk about this issue and these people who are made in the image of God because kids are listening.

I do young men come out to me describing three or four years.

He said I'm just afraid to tell my parents I know they love me and they're Christians, but I can remember certain what he interpreted as bigoted, homophobic statements and now I know that they view me differently. Those parents had no idea what they were doing. We are growing up my dad would take us down to Laguna Beach as we did to the mountains of San Diego because there are maybe two or three times a year stay on the beach the family and would intentionally take us to a restaurant and there was a waiter there by the name of Jade who is gay and he actually ended up dying by AIDS and I just saw my dad. I remember him befriending him being so kind to them what time in front of our family and my bike had just his bold he owes Jade goes just want my family to learn. He was which you share with my kids. What is it like to be gay in America today to mind share with our family know some people like you can ask that while my dad had a relationship with them.

He was willing to listen and that just showed me and taught us as kids that your sexual orientation is irrelevant to being made in the image of God. We all have something to learn. We can all build relationships and God loves them and God loves us once that conversation sound like let's say to an eight-year-old nonunion now like how did that start when thinking of parents listening like tell me how to do it. You know whether they're eight or 12 or will aim 12 would probably sound a little bit different right that salute limiting my daughter when she was 12.

A lot of kids will have friends who start coming out at this stage. I just asked my daughter a lot of questions.

I said hated this surprise you.

What are some ways your friends responded why think it was so hard for them to come out. How did you respond and walk it through.

So my daughter had a friend who has a mountain strong with this just struggling with identity in my my daughter goes hey he just texted me and I said okay let's do this together. Let's talk through a response is located at tell me what to say and inside I'm thinking I care about this kid, but I'm helping my daughter model like hey we love you and I know your parents are doing your best and like these are opportunities with our kids so just make sure it's positive go back to Scripture and just teach it in an age-appropriate way. That's all that we can do is how to explain what it means to be gay to an eight-year-old would obviously be different than a 12-year-old.

But you just do your best and few make mistakes and you're trying it's done this, you know, spirit of love. The Bible says love covers a multitude of sins. What you say in this chapter, you know, stay faithful to Scripture.

Be a good friend Threat, but often when I'm a good friend faithful to Scripture, there comes a rub at some point is like you're not really good friend because you aren't agreeing with my lifestyle yet. Here's how I counsel young people. I've done this many times I'll say okay. Do you and I differ over important things. Yes here's what I want you to know my relationship with you will never change my love for you based on anything you believe, or you don't believe I don't care if you change your religion, your sexuality.

I love and I care about you. My hope is that you would extend the same kind of friendship to me because I actually think it's our difference that we can be friends amidst the big difference that actually makes this friendship meaningful if you're gonna end this because I won't believe what you believe know that I would never do that to you in the moment you want to be back in relationship with me.

I'm here because I care about you not had I've also said parents when kids say this to parents. Sometimes I'll get a little bit stronger and you have to be wise I counsel them on the Seder daughter say you know what I loving him no matter what. And this will never change.

I raced you almost like don't you dare put my unconditional love for you on a certain definition.

It's coming from culture today. My love for you will never change. And if you want to shut me out of your life. I can't control that but I will never shut you out. Sometimes there's a time and place to be very firm with young person now can they walk away. Have had parents say yeah I tried that my kids want nothing to do with me and I can say is my heart breaks for you. I'm so sorry that you are trying to live out a firm, gracious love, you might have to give this some time and I think God is looking down saying well done my good and faithful servant. That's all we can do the subject.

The Dave and Ann Wilson have been talking with Sean McDowell about this week is the subject of sexuality and gender hot button subject in our culture today. Sean's written a book called tracing love that were making available this week to any of you who can help with the donation to support the ministry of family life today. Your donation extends the reach of this ministry, you make it possible for hundreds of thousands of people every day to connect with family life and receive practical biblical help and hope for their marriage and their family. That's what you're investing him when you make a donation to this ministry and you can donate online@familylifetoday.com or call one 800 FL today donate again when you do request your copy of Sean McDowell's book, tracing love, sex, love and relationships in a confused culture will send it up to you along with our thanks for your partnership with us in the ministry of the gospel and the ministry of family life to know.

I know that this is the time of year when a lot of church small groups are getting started up again, maybe you're in a small group where you guys are going through a book study or something at family life. We've got a number of small group resources that couples have found very helpful in pointing them toward God's design for marriage or for parenting recently.

I do a series on my book.

Love, like you mean it, a 10 part video series for couples to do in a small group setting. Dave and Ann Wilson of done vertical marriage. There are many of these small group studies available and you can go to our website. Family life to the.com to find out more about them right now between now and February 18. If you use the promo code new year 2022. You'll save 25% off any small group order so go to our website. Family life today.com.

If you're looking for something related to marriage or parenting for your small group go to family.today.com and check out what we got available and again you set promo code new year 2022. To save 25% off, and we hope we can be back with us again tomorrow when we talk about one of the pandemics the hidden pandemics that we are facing in this culture that's not being talked about enough, that's the pandemic of pornography and the impact it's having on relationships on marriages on our soul.

Great organs can be here with us for that. We hope you could be back with us as well on behalf of our hosts Dave and Ann Wilson on Bobby Payne will see you next time for another edition of family life today. Family life to the use of production of family life accrue ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most