Hearing One Another

Okay, we found especially in this last year, 20, 21 that in our family at our dinner table. The old adage you cannot talk about politics or religion has really risen to be true. Which is interesting because growing up in our homes. We thought of this is we cannot talk about religion. We cannot talk about politics and I had this prideful arrogance like that will never happen in our family also held a perfect will be on the go there but and it is happened but we got to the point where don't bring it up. Welcome to family life today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most and Wilson and I'm Dave Wilson and you can find us@familylifetoday.com or on our family life. This is family life today. Help yeah we do need when it's really smart people come over here. They are often Rick languor would come from California. Both professors at viola, which means you're really smart guys, welcome to family life to all. We love you Gerald you are excited to have you back because we've already had a great discussion, but you've written a book called winsome conviction of subtitle disagreeing without dividing the church what what a book for these times that I guess in you wrote it before these times you know before covert, but man oh man was it a funny story.

We wrote rewrote the introduction three times, all new things came up one was about an essay that was written where noted. Christian said that a present trump should be impeached or trivial matter about impede you with all this perfect introduction then Kobe came without okay will call Ed and then we had drafts where you're not mouthwatering you know we did report all three of them in or did you really should we just Right now you just keep all so crazy crazy right. These are tense times and was making it more tenses. I honestly feel like Americans have lost the ability to talk to each other and things we need to talk about incredibly important things we always felt the church was in you yeah those poor non-Christians out there. They need our help.

But as we began to write this book we realize all know the church is in bad shape and we just don't even talk to each other or we leave your church or we demonize each other week we call it weapon icing a belief I'm now using my belief against you, and so Rick was a pastor for 20 years I was an interim teaching pastor are both married Mary kids and grandkids all right and mica ticks me off about. We of adult kids what really ticks me off.

They disagree with the excuse to leverage what is graduating from law school and I literally say something in your talk mother tell last time. This is my son's tell you use what it is like you up for what you found that in your family or do they all bow to what I'm writing a book on successful pearly absolutely zero weekly have different opinions with tubes politically almost am I I think the bottom line is the church is very analogous to the family on this point where you have been with my kids as well.

We have huge areas of agreement. Like everything you talk about its history of of this agreement, but that's part of the rope is then you're hoping that you get your momentum up and you'll agree on everything. I may have the audacity to think for themselves and so these are the challenges the furlough sounds like you had some the same things happen in your family room, kitchen, dinner table, that we have, but you're the expert. You wrote a book on winsome conviction that obviously this involves convictions your son and daughters have them. We have him and there's a conversation going on and you helped us last time with a speedbump which was awesome and I don't go through all that again.

Our listeners can go back and listen but it was just simply stated Rockwell very quickly when a person says something you just feel your temperature rising.

This is when the speedbump really comes in. So first things simply paraphrase. Here's what I heard you say and you made the point tone is everything. Yeah, if I go, here's what emerges on the LAI is not a speedbump and then second, simply where do I agree with this. Even if it's very broad like we both agree politics is important in order to really disagree on how to vote. Like the third one we thought is, here's where it emotionally resonated with me. This is where empathy comes in sympathy and then we like to add this phrase. Here's what I think. I think about the issue that I think I have a little bit of freedom to be in process. I don't have this all nail down what you're so careful I'm still very careful. That's why the book of Proverbs says life and death is in the power of the tongue, and I need to be very James says one little spark from your tongue can set a forest fire blaze in California.

We don't take that lightly. And we have wildfires all over the place to so that was very simply the point we make one other point from the communication process.

By the way, he is a doctorate and communicate in philosophy and the Holocaust. Again, this is deep stuff here are disagree my Kauai all agree with you what we wrote a book called winsome persuasion were at the very end, we took a hotbed topic and we actually disagree with each other at the end it was moderated by a friend of ours. We try to apply the principles of the book, which was good for the most part, it worked out pretty well. Here's one thing I want to say is, so here's what I do. It always myself so I know about the four steps okay that we just talked about. But in my mind. I let it rip. In my mind. I absolutely just go to to how you might do them. I would you like my kids yes she does. I've done that about Dave Wilson in the past I let it rip. But here's what we know from psychology. This is called emotional contagion. The negative feelings I cultivate and allowed to germinate absolutely bleed out into the relationship we call it getting a good or bad vibe from a person, and so we need to. As Paul says take captive these thoughts.

So we want the police are internal communication as much as we police the extra because the interns can bleed right in and poison the atmosphere before you even have a conversation. This is what poisons marriages all told, I been thinking all day how my spouse has and how he's feeling and then he comes home, and I don't see that I'm saying hey I'm sitting right here, you will wise I know. As were talking volatile issues. I just get a site that's really hard to do that is anything you quoted Sigrid Vincent five. Take every thought captive and I know that I memorize that I'm a preachers preach that and yet I'm in a disagreement and all that negativity and I'm sorta mad at you and I don't even like you right now is in there.

How do you do it because you're right it's gonna bleed out any add to this day. If you've been on social media all day and reading, and your kind of just ingesting all these thoughts and opinions in your kinda fired up and not take your mind to another place where this is going to say one thing Rick told Mr. Bassler Lau that's really helpful to know what he set you up for and I think you do what one of the things that I think is his feud with internal battle is just acknowledging that this is going to be wrong, but what fallen world welcome to total depravity. The reason Paul gives these things these sorts of metaphors you're taking someone. It's a warm metaphor can write and so you have a sense of your mind is like was describing the tongue gives you raging around and I find assault. I'll be driving working in the yard a bunch of things are kind of like low-grade terms of the mental effort required. My mind just drifts and I will replay conversations. I'm always and I have never figured out how to keep my mind from doing their I can once I have that moment of realization. What do you realize what just went through your mind.

I realize I can do something really. Some something. Look at what is this person actually thinking and feeling about the issue and will take up step to empathize with train project to us. One of things I talk about sometimes be a speaker for the absent.

If my friend John who is a zero hard-core trump supporter or Biden supporters, or whatever the angle is if she were here. What might he say and you can do that in your own mind and you can also do them in conversations. It's a very durable tulip maps are just talking some way to mark what does this person actually thinking what am I attributing to them even as I believe he stops my mind, but to me it's just because it's a spiritual discipline constant battle kind of thing in the book we talk a little bit about problems that have to be managed in problems would have to be solved and I'm a guy who loves solving problems solving problems gets me up in the morning.

Managing problems does not will are you guys monitoring your social media feeds where you just reading everything as it does that matter. I think you have to watch what you open your soul to I think we have to be careful that we have a whole chapter on something called groupthink, which means the groups that you belong to Maccabee online or in person. It could be a church, adult fellowship group where all we do is talk negative about the other side because the other side is never present during their not welcome here. Or are you don't feel the freedom to give voice to the other side because the hallmark of groupthink is fidelity to the group. I need to get in the group supporter and not give a contrary perspective. I think we have to be careful and of opening ourselves up and feeding the beast like I course, those people are idiots and I can't think of one reason you'd vote for this person. I can't believe my spouse is falling for this. I can't believe my kids are at any or all revved up and record I like about rehearsing a conversation that can be dangerous to psycho. If we ever have. This, as you lovingly loaded for bear. I got that one I created an acronym to Kinko's and got color. I am rich and that can be dangerous because that person brings up what is blank so John Gottman when the top relational experts right. He said there soft startups and hard startups.

If you don't monitor internal communications. Always a hard start harsh startup like so Rick bring something up and I've been really pleased reason for putting these because I miss the opportunity to say that Terry brings up again is not even done with his sentence on my cat well you know what Mr. PhD in philosophy.

What would you say about this and just the tone the attitude is like really really haven't listened anything he said because you've already know your friend know well I go to the first time I have for now.

I don't like him and that such a great distinction. I listened the first time ever heard that so many times I don't listen to the second time because I already know what you're going to say so that's what's dangerous about just reading about the other side rather than actually talking to a person from the other side and yet obviously were were ending and were building a case for division unity. We are even her head were mowing the yard of done it. Rick just like he said I like even with my wife I'm like okay I'm ready now. Five minutes of mothers. All I do is think about this and that and like you said to him, the previous conversation I really care what she's go so there's no limit is nothing she can't sell five gutter so my poor wife. I was on the debate team in college and I did stand-up comedy. So what went on here sarcastic all the laws so being poor. Noreen will start to bring something up and I will launch into my rebuttal. I will launch and it is eloquent Noreen ghost that's not even talking about my responses. I don't care if it was wise. I win that was really good work this out. What I was role of the law that I'd like you to listen to those of where I am not prepared for me. Do one little digression and I do want to get back to convictions and conviction mapping at all but one thought and to appear like an expert on this because you wrote a book about spiritual warfare in your marriage how much of what were time I read here even taking your thoughts captive and even your mind wandering when you're not with the person and come back. How much of the enemy.

And I mean the devil to Lucifer the enemy of our soul who wants to steal, kill and destroy. How much of this is influenced by him. Again, I'm not going to say you know your lawnmower done started needs an exercise in your eyes like the Devils and everything. But is there some spiritual aspect to this in your family in your church in the world. What I think Jesus was 25% of everything Jesus had to say had to do a spiritual battle. John go so far as to say the whole world lies in the power, the evil one. So I think we'd be naïve to think that these disagreements that are bleeding into our family are workspaces and our churches.

We would not just naïvely be supremely difficult not to step back and pray were for prayers not. Here's what a war for prayer might sound like this a wreck and I really do. Even though a codirectors of the with some conviction project we we get into a tussle okay and I we got bad attitudes going towards each other. Okay to step back and say okay if there are demons attacking our relationship demons. I tell you in the name of Jesus Christ, his authority, not mine. You are not to influence us negatively that once I pray that umbrella prayer. Now it's conflict resolution 101 Rick and I need to go back to the prior four steps to each other because we, set those aside because I work were kinda mad at each of that's what I mean by umbrella prayers.

And here's the difference in the modern in the ancient church the ancient church would've assumed spiritual battles happening monitors as you got a perfect Socha.

Another analogy would work in most areas with lost and spiritual warfare. So I think most of us understand we can generate affirmative lust on her own. This is part of art and outcome of the human condition in case were short on that ability-Hollywood has always been happy to stand in and help us out nicely and so you know you have yourself your own flesh you have the world. I think Satan just says what a wonderful playground and so he just exacerbates things in and flies up I feel a similar process happens about summer conflicts about convictions, political issues, in some sense social media is analogous to pornography its relationship to our own law. Social media does the same thing for her own kind of destructive attitudes about conversation combat so there's a lot of that the conscripts fit in the exterior contacts and then Satan can do whatever havoc you want on top of that whole structure but grab a group that's having conflict, a Christian group sitting down and out, and they often bring us, and we work with pastors sometimes in churches but asked this one question you wanted to be sound judgmental, but to say okay have you at any time pray to spiritual warfare prayer over this conflict and guys the answer is zero.

I met it and that is not even a blip on our screen so they won't even get to Ephesians chapter 6 is we believe before you get into conflict. You need to get dressed in armor this miracle on the Paul talks about you imagine if a couple before they had a conversation about some they know they're going to have a tough time agreeing on today. Before we talk a spray or a father-son aura of church meeting. I mean it, but we don't do this like we were away honey were about to get in some course I'm there be a friend… Go, but we should say no to God for his elbow some really hardly does help us. I feel like we've done that we have a schism for speed but there are times I don't want to pray because I don't want Jesus to guard my tongue. I want to use it as a weapon now want to hurt but bring this into political or cultural areas that are so explosive.

I've never thought of doing that, you know the Lord will you just put a hedge of protection on us that the enemy can have nothing to do with this conversation all absolute. Now let's approach each other with gentleness.

What is Peter say when insulted away to bless instead were man echoes out the window pretty quickly when we hit certain hot topics and what's sad is we Artie started there is we just don't talk because we've learned it's explosive. We walk away angry may be our relation with our son or daughter or her spouse is been broken and I think we even use the Bible in this way, you go to Romans 1218. I know you experts PhD's are no similar live with this verse if possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men and I think we do something like that to say if I'm to be at peace with Rick. We can talk about this.

So whatever is on but so that's like a copout way of saying we can have real conversations in our home about race, about the election about wearing mass. Whatever it is or about theology because I've had this and we got in a fight.

And so we can live at peace. So Mike ever going to have a way that is not what God wants us to do. We have to have these conversations but how do we do it peacefully. So again I'm bringing you back to win some conviction that is not winning conviction. It's winsome, but it also has this conviction, things will help us understand conviction because that's where we get in trouble but we shouldn't convictions are wonderful. We should all have them.

How do we have them and not lose it's really interesting because we tend to think of there being two kinds of issues are members of conviction in matters of your tapes so you like chocolate I like vanilla. It's a matter of your taste commits kind of hard some people can manage to fight about that if the whole communication climate. I drive by and large it was like yeah you know, whatever. Then there's these matters of committees are moral issues with vis-à-vis important things about those things we form conviction so that's what's in our hip and the interesting thing is, if important than conviction.

And if conviction then absolute conviction. Now here's the interesting thing that Paul does in Romans 14 as he takes those two categories of taste and conviction and he pushes them apart any sticks in between them. The third category so you end up with is like a little mini spectrum are three things you have absolute convictions you have personal convictions and then you have matters of taste and what we've lost is any kind of a vision for personal conviction and let me just say with Romans 14. If you read that passage you find Paul talking about it in the framework of what simply days and diets Audi response database especially knows some people regard always like what others think their special days and you're like oh yeah, right. I think I read the Gospels as I recall Jesus bumped into view those folks really test about what he did on the Sabbath day.

Write it for them, and likewise a guide to you eating with you easy with a tax collecting me what kind of food. So these are huge issues in terms of a Jewish believer right and these are not members of trivial in Paul's writing to Rome in this conflict. The Romans have just kicked the Jews out of their city.

One of the most pluralistic cities in the history of the world was ancient Rome and they just bounced Jews. Okay, now you're living in a Jewish Gentile mixed church and Paul floats this little letter by you… Well some people view all days alike so little and view them differently and you can just see the steam rising off a bunch of people hello yeah right I know where this was going and what here's really interesting thing would always he said look I don't want you to judge each other on this matter, but I do want you understand that Jesus will judge you on this matter. It's before your master that you will stand or fall, and he will judge it and he says each consul actually approved but the point is no one is getting away with anything on this area and he says I want you to be fully convinced in your own mind it doesn't take a genius to do a little etymological work there and say oh I want to be convinces like a conviction, writing, and he's literally telling the people for personal convictions about bees and diets for such thinkers rubbish diets in the things you should care because you answered the Jesus we know you won't answer to Tim even if he is a PhD just doesn't matter what Tim thinks about it.

What it does matter what you think about it, and it matters what I Jesus think about because you will give an account to me this is a personal conviction rather than vets were missing because we think of some moral matter. We think some important matters of things at spiritual matter, then we should have an absolute conviction shared by all people. If you want to hint at your absolute convictions pick up the apostles Creed Beazer confessional beliefs and you know everyone should share it because when you walk in the church. The pastor says let's all stand and you recite the apostles Creed. We believe in God the father, the Almighty Creator of heavens and earth and you don't really have an option for some help build this whole creator think I'm not really. You can opt out right.

But these errors are personal conviction and obstacle days and nights as you have tried to underscore how important it was then cultured in their culture. You can imagine being very similar to issues about politics or immigration or things like that. And surely we should be agreeing about an absolute about all human beings being created in the image of God. What does it mean about current policies regarding hiring and large corporations are training people about racial sensitivity. How I don't know and I'm happy to say you should form conviction about that, but it would be really nice. It was a personal conviction but you held with all integrity for Jesus with 110% of vision for, but you gave the grace for the person beside you say I see that issue differently and I'm going for a different course. And that's her child. We've lost that middle area we have to recover that in order to be people who actually express her discipleship from authentic conviction, but don't divide the church and nobody's happy with this approach. I want my personal conviction right to be the conviction of this family to be the conviction of our marriage and be the conviction of our church. My personal take on this because it's absolute.

This is what God saying in the Bible and I want this to be for everybody and a Christian university where this tunnel really really smart people. This does not work well sometimes because I was like dude, you are not reading Paul raises clear we cannot do that. This is an absolute this is conviction.

This is an absolute is not a personal conviction that is thus saith the Lord.

I and you are ignoring that and I'd rather shut this place down. Then have us not fall with the Bible has set that's how it gets real tight but a harsh start right on doing what the Bible says and the Bureau could do. The Bible says I can't get this church so Dave you know that's what you heard 50 million or so just like the idea. I posted something on social media and wanting get into it, not even a comment just a I just posted a simple thing saying I love all people basically is my point is like.

I think everyone's made in the image of God whom the first comment like within 18 seconds was I guess I have to find a new church about the 18 seconds I was writing about no there was no speedbump.

He also got email of a woman saying I'm leaving the church because of how you voted never voted a certain way. He didn't say who he voted for never set a great firm that I parameters of the resident and she was letting made incisor, former president Mike oh yes I did. I always pray on election Sunday after the saying that we are commanded in Scripture. Pray for your leaders.

I did that last time I did it this time in CHC pulling out later and said I have politics and I responded, said I don't know how long you been here before. Years ago I prayed for trump in this I would prefer buying. She came up later. You know, like, a month later hey on the girl. Mike the girl says I say that email. I'm so sorry I judged you, and I didn't know your heart be close to her for owning up to the other great move is the ideal liaison navigate these waters perfectly unlikely that reality can bring that obviously into our churches and into our homes. You've really helped us get like I think we can see parents and kids and spouses haven't different conversations now just from that. Could it be possible that they could have convictions personal and winsome together. It is going to take some time and some practice. For most of us to begin to develop some of the winsome communication techniques that we've heard about today and yet the payoff is there when we do we will see stronger, healthier relationships. We can do that what we hold on to our convictions without turning those convictions into absolutes that everybody else has to adhere to this is what's at the heart of the book the Tim Ewell-Rick Langer have written. It's called winsome convictions. It's a book we got in our family life to the resource center, and it's available for you to order online, you can go to family life to date.com to get a copy or you can call one 800 FL today and will send a copy to you again the title of the book is winsome convictions by Tim Ewell-Rick Langer order online@familylifetoa.com or call to order at 1-800-358-6329 that's one 800 F as in family L as in life, and then the word today.

You know what Tim and Rick have talked about today having winsome convictions and holding to them firmly but graciously that's a part of.

We try to do here at family life David Robbins was the person family life is here with me and David.

We want to stand firm when it comes to biblical truth. We want to do it in such a way that we demonstrate grace and understanding and humility right now this is what we seek to do it. Family life we want to be winsome and our presentation of biblical truth in a very polarized culture and won't you to be able to recommend to your friends to listen to a show or to get a resource and they may be offended by Jesus and what the Scripture says, but are not can be offended by the tone of how her talking at how were sharing the flourishing that can happen in the home and the monks to family because of Jesus in the ways of Jesus, and I hope our listers feel comfortable sharing what they hear in family life to a with others.

I hope we are holding to our convictions in a way that is winsome. We want to be trusted friends and I hope that that continues to happen going forward.

David, thank you for being with us today and I will encourage our listers to join us again tomorrow morning to talk about whether it's possible to heal from scars that happen during childhood to ultimately come back and forgive our parents when they wronged us in a significant way. Jason Romano from sports spectrum will be here to talk about the process he had to go through in dealing with that with his own father. Hope you can tune in for that on behalf of our host Steven and Wilson on Bob Lapine join us again tomorrow for another edition of family life today.

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