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February 16, 2021 1:00 am
Is your spouse mentally and emotionally draining you? Author Gary Thomas explains that when a spouse is controlling or has a murderous spirit, it might be necessary, in some circumstances, to walk away. Thomas reminds us that a person who is anti-God eventually becomes anti-us. If a man or woman is intentionally destroying those around them but wants to stay in the relationship, it might be because they want to preserve their platform for abuse. Sometimes separation or divorce can be a tool to remove the abusive behavior. Thomas contrasts a toxic marriage from a difficult marriage.
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There are people in our lives who thrive on division and dissension.
Thomas says they are toxic people they love, anger, range, malice, slander, filthy language in line. They come alive when they're in a battle. They come alive when they're whispering about some of the come alive when they're attacking someone.
It makes them feel like they have purpose like they have mission. Those are things where my my senses go up now and I realizing I think I may be dealing with a toxic person. This is family life today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson, Bob Lapine can find us online@familylifetoday.com when you heard that description of toxic people may have thought about people you know. So what you do if there are people in your life who are toxic talk today with Gary Thomas about what the Bible says we are to do. Stay with us and welcome to family life to. Thanks for joining us. I think probably all of us can look back on relationships in our lives where we would say this relationship was draining. This relationship took life from me did not give life to me.
There are marriages right where husbands and wives do find themselves in and of spouses draining them other person of life, is controlling or as we've already heard. This week has what we describe as a murderous spirit with words and assault. They're just attacking another person. What you do in that situation. Well, that's what were exploring this week with our friend Gary Thomas was joining us again on family life today.
Gary welcome back. Thank you Gary as an author. He is the writer in residence at Second Baptist Church in Houston where he reaches from time to time and is also freed up to think and write an and speak into the lives of them all of the congregation, but that's a gift really second Baptist is not only given you a gift that given the body of Christ.
A gift by giving you the time to write these things and and help in the support that so that we can benefit from this.
I am so grateful for second and and Dr. Young. And what they've done and what they've allowed me to be able to do. I am so so grateful it's it's a tremendous gift that I think they're giving him. Gary has written a new book called Quinton to walk away. That's all about how we find freedom from toxic people and we we spent some time defining that this week. You've already talked about how these are people who are controlling people who will use the term a murderous spirit who are attacking their they're taking life from you in emotional ways and and people who are energized by hate and anger and are drawn to it in and add fuel to it when those qualities are in another person. We can say that's not gonna be a healthy life-giving relationship. I'm thinking of what Jesus said about the thief coming to kill and steal and destroy some relationships we have kill and steal and destroy.
And Jesus came to give life and give it abundantly think the question Gary and you get into this in the second half of your book what you do if you're in a marriage and you look and you go this marriages draining life from me you're not advocating that you wake up one morning and diagnosed. I think my spouse's toxic. So I guess I should walk away right now but I believe there are times when to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. We we may have the walk away about this was the most difficult part of me understanding this idea because I have devoted my life to holding marriages together to see healing and I've never seen a marriage or two people are willing to submit themselves to the Lord that God can't heal and make so much better. I know, and you've had stories here were couples a gotten a divorce and and come back together and God does great healing. But when a toxic person continues to be toxic and is destroying someone's soul. It's not just the marriage that it's issue if if we value someone's mission for all called to seek first the kingdom of God. That's Matthew 633 for the sermon on the Mount more than I'm to seek first a marriage more than I'm to seek first maintaining a relationship with the child more than him to seek first. Anything God is equip me. He's called me he's called all of his children in a certain thing and so once I saw the concept of Jesus walking away and looked at the Scriptures were Jesus addresses as my eyes were open, where there may be a few circumstances, I think we need to be careful. But there may be someone we have to walk away, even in parenting and marriage, one for me is Matthew 1034 through 39 when Jesus said this.suppose I've come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword from come to turn a man against his father and daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man's enemies will be the member of his own household.
Anyone who loves her father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. One loves her son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me and so while faith does hold families together and shared faith in Jesus creates an intimacy that nothing else can match. Jesus is our allegiance to him is such that if somebody is anti-God, they're going to become anti-us if they won't surrender to the Lord.
There was another occasion.
Luke 14 that's even more explicit to marriage. When Jesus said if anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, even their own life. Such a person cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Another word eight there in the Greek it's a comparison word that means in comparison the any other allegiance in your life. It's not even close our faith to Jesus is above our relationship with our kids are parents are in-laws, and even our spouse. It's the pearl of great price would sell everything to have that pearl right and so if a man or if a woman is destroying someone where the life is been sucked out of them where they're opposing their efforts as God seeks to serve them. Usually what I found is eventually the toxic person will go but in some circumstances. What I found is that people were particularly evil will know enough of the Scripture usually judge not or you will not be judged right 90% of the Bible. They know and I'll use it to keep somebody in the marriage, not because they want to renew their marriage but they want to preserve the platform for abuse and that's why think as pastors and leaders.
We need to have our eyes open when people love to hate when they get a sick thrill out of abusing someone and squeezing the life out of a fellow believer there came a point in my understanding when I said my call as a Christian is first to oppose evil and sometimes in in rare circumstances but necessary circumstances. Divorce can be a tool.
I hate divorce as a weapon. I hate when divorce is used inappropriately.
At least somebody devastated it hurts someone, and that's why think it is use most of the time, but in a few cases where there's true toxicity and certainly where there's abuse. I believe that divorce can be a tool to remove that platform of abuse and toxicity, but you're not saying yeah I can walk into a pastor's office and say I think I grounds for divorce because my wife is toxic. No, I think that's where the church gets involved and have seen some churches that have done this really well mine is a Tony Evans church they have accounts where they can go to the church and the church's counsel conceal this.
This is the normal conflict in marriage is not acting like a toxic person. He's acting like a guy or they can give her objective truth is that you know what this is not how a guy ask.
This is a toxic act or same thing with the wife because some guys have torn their hair out because of the marriage goes wrong. A lot of people assume the guys at fault and there can be toxic women as well as toxic men.
This is so important and I think we need to distrust this both for individuals and for churches. First of all, for individuals you don't make an isolated independent diagnosis of toxicity and act on it. You get the community of faith you get, church leaders, godly men involved. Let them speak into this. Let them help diagnose let them help guide you in this situation that's so critical. By the same token, we gotta say to church leaders because what I've I've heard the stories of women who come and say my husband's being abusive and the church leader say well you just need to submit an and we just gotta say to church leaders, no guarding and guiding and protecting the sheep who come to you the vulnerable sheep and and putting somebody back in, both physically and emotionally dangerous situations without coming alongside and being a protector to the person that's in abuse of your responsibility as a shepherd of the flock.
So if the church is functioning the way it should. A husband or wife should be able to come and say, will you help me here. I don't know what to do. This is my circumstance and you come alongside and you help if it's not functioning well either. The person makes an independent decision or the church is giving un-biblical advice.
I remember Gary Beeler. The situation with other church leaders and a wife came to us and she said here's my situation. My husband has been abusing substances for a period of time. Now he he is regularly using drugs and alcohol and she said the other night in a argument. He put his fist through the wall and I got scared because that's the first time I'm seen him use that kind of physical aggression.
I'm afraid it could come on me was church leaders. We recognized protecting her is job one. But here's the thing. She said I want my marriage to work.
I want to see him redeemed. I want to see him turn from this we call human. He was weeping. I'll do anything to save my marriage. I know I was wrong and we said okay so drug testing going need regular drug testing.
You need to bring that by the church. We want to see the results or your drug test will that happen for two weeks and the could happen not at this point, the wife came back to us and she said I don't know what to do and we wondered together. Whether may be a divorce would wake him up from his blindness to what was going on is like we were starting to look as you were taught him a curious divorce is a tool for redemption, not as a weapon to use against son Jeff and in that situation.
I think that's where we can look and we say our goal is redemption and reconciliation and maybe divorce. In some cases can be a tool to help make that happen.
I know even saying that our listeners are going are you saying I'm saying this is where you need godly leadership and godly men and women in your circumstances who can speak into this and help you navigate that situation can separation ever be a first step before divorce. The first question I ask is safety. Do you feel safe and if they don't immediately you're getting the person out of there but a situation where work toward the threat of divorce became a tool was a very controlling couple I mentioned before, he controlled every aspect of her life had to have sex in a certain position. Certain time of the day. Certain day of the week. They always aid Mexican restaurant, 6/7 days. He controlled what they watched on television. He started tracking wherever she was. And he would ask her. She went out of her routine.
She was losing her mind. I could go on more but anybody would recognize it as extreme control where she felt oppressed, and she just I'm gonna lose my mind and I I looked at him and I said is this true and I was shocked. He said everything she told you is 100% true.
Was she had already gotten papers in order with the lawyer.
She rented a little apartment and I looked at him is that if you want to see things change. You need to go to the apartment, not her. He loved his house I said you did this. You're the one that needs to sit in a little apartment she gets to be in the house and control is over. You cannot contact her and let she contact you if she send you a text, you can respond to that text, but you don't initiate the tax hike on she starts to write the text you see the… And then it goes away. You don't count that as a test I guess to change your mind and so they did it and he told me dear when you said that to me, that will be the hardest thing I've ever done. Because when you're used to controlling some RA and they get to determine when and where you meet and how you talk and whatnot and today they love each other, have an entirely new marriage. He said every aspect of our marriage, our friends, where we got teeth she's able to minister in a way she hasn't before. She says it's improved our sexual intimacy because the control was stopped. Now the differences that was a guy who was truly repentant holding himself accountable putting himself before the Lord on his face.
He said pointed been an issue in the past, but now I'm in the word I'm praying I didn't even turn on the television just like Lord remake me, renew me, and then the toxic behavior was rooted out.
We have to make its distinction, I believe, between toxic behavior and a person was given themselves over to toxicity. In this case, he was able to address the behavior with extremes and in this case it was the threat of possibly losing his marriage that finally woke him up to this a serious threat she'd been asking them for 10 years and what happened is, it got worse and worse and worse when she found out about the tracking. That's when it was just wait a minute I thought of living in big Brothers world and and she was and so she did him a favor, in the sense that he would say today he's so much happier. He so much renewed it. It's brought joy because toxic behavior destroys amine again if we enjoyed being toxic. We have dark souls in any here's a question I think that that story raises is he was changed, so a toxic person was transformed a person married or in a close relationship somebody it's toxic.
I hear that I like.
Never lose hope.
When you keep Stan in.
I just her story of this man, this woman changing so I'm not going to give up even though it's getting worse and worse when you say that person well I've seen some people being destroyed inside out and when they go through the divorce. They become a new person.
There is a flood of ministry.
On the other side there is a light and life.
There's a difference in their their countenance because they've gotten under this oppressive evil situation because one of the signs of toxicity that we didn't really talk about is gas lighting or a toxic person can make a Christian for like they're crazy for honest clear and true observations course on not having an affair.
Is there something wrong with you that makes me think I met and course and you find out they were either murdering the person's sanity when you're doing it, and when some people don't repent.
It's hard for them to understand. It wasn't until I got I got into the chapter about the skeleton of Scripture about the reality of evil fall has affected us in every way that for some people. They want that platform of abuse and they don't care about repairing the marriage. They don't care about their spouse.
They care about having a platform to terrorize someone. That's why think a pastor, a friend, a Christian leader has to be the shepherd. This is your being preyed upon. I see it, here's what others see it. Professional counselor can see it and and encouraging them to find refuge and pastors and health. We did an interview years ago and in fact this is available on our website of family life to the duck, folks can listen to the podcast. This marked me and help me think about these kinds of relationships Dan Allender and Trevor Longman wrote a book called bold love and in that book. They said there really three kinds of people who will sin against you.
They said there is a garden-variety center were all married dissenters so you can expect your spouse is going to sin against you because he married a sinner and you're a sinner than the second person is a fool and and a fool is kind of one grade up from a garden-variety center. This is somebody who is in patterns of CM and acting out their foolishness and it just continues but they said there's 1/3 person that's an evil person.
We have to recognize that some people go beyond foolishness and there they are consumed with evil and I think when you're talking about toxic behavior were not talking about a garden-variety scenario out of a husband's list and go you know my wife's annoying.
Maybe she's toxic okay were all annoyed right that doesn't mean were toxic.
There's a difference between being a garden-variety center and being a toxic person. There is even a difference between somebody who's in foolish behavior over and over again in a toxic person a toxic person. There's an edge of evil that's associated with that and this is not something that is cured by subtle means.
This is something that you need drastic action to try to intervene in and sometimes your best efforts are, or fall short. Scripture makes room for what you just said there are scriptures that say obey the government because God respects authority, but there times when we can't obey government children obeying on your parents father's don't exasperate your children, wives, submit to your husband's husband's never be harsh with your wife or of them always so whenever Scripture says you respect this sort of authority. It follows along with as long as it's not soul destroying as long as it's respecting the ultimate authority of God.
Our allegiance is to our Creator God first and how he set things up.
We oppose evil when it enters every situation with the skeleton of Scripture and leaving a few things out, but it's creation, fall, and redemption, God created a good world government is creation marriage, his creation, church authority, his creation, parenting his creation. The evil penetrates every one of those in the Bible recognizes that and says okay, but in those cases we oppose the evil we don't let the institution abuse.
The person even something like the Sabbath God instituted the Sabbath and when Jesus came, lungs, and you're using the Sabbath to hurt people not to help people and so were going to reclaim what it means to have the Sabbath, and so completely agree with what you say and I think Scripture back set up that we respect authority but we resist evil. That's attention that we can't let go of all Gary I love all that. That's so profound and important for us to know. But why delete Mary these toxic people. When you say the word evil. We see that evilness before we get married does premarital counseling help us. What are the steps we can take that we make sure that we don't marry a toxic person is a great question, but there's more than one answer that the challenges toxic people are better at being toxic than we are dealing with them because they been toxic. The whole ice and and they can full people they can look like a Casanova. He can look like a wonderful one she can look like a woman that answers all of his dreams. And then when they get that platform you see what it was all about. So some I have compassion.
I just think they were fooled and you your early 20s or something you don't have the experience in life. Somebody switch off your feet.
Have a silly marriage within three months of meeting each other and you can be in that situation where you have been fooled. Other times it's just psychological conditioning. If you had an abusive parent. Sometimes that's what feels comfortable in your relationships and you feel comfortable with a guy that's a little abusive or a woman that's a little bit of abusive and and you were set up for that and again I I feel for those people. Others I think you just miss it. We don't we don't think of toxic people and I have to admit that it would be a sin to label people toxic earlier in my life until I realize the importance Jesus loves them. Yes, right, or I think I can change them more. I think we can make this work or these feelings are so strong you know that that were out of our minds what neurological idealization when were infatuated. We create somebody who doesn't exist were blinded to their weaknesses and we create strengths that they don't really house I think there are a lot of reasons like that, which is why we want to make a distinction between a difficult marriage in a toxic marriage in one sense were all incompatible organ have difficulties to work through that is the message of sacred marriage. It's the message of vertical marriage that basically God grows us through the challenges of marriage. The differences that you can grow in a difficult marriage, you can become more patient, more understanding humbler gentler toxicity is not where you're growing, it's where you're being destroyed.
You feel like you're losing your mind you wake up in fear. It's impacting your health. You can't have other healthy relationships.
You know what I've seen in so many people married to toxic people. The spouse that's toxic ends up making that almost there only relationship they cut them off from their friends.
They cut them off from their own parents they cut them off from people at church and it takes years. But they realize they're just sort of like that wolf isolating the sheep to have their evil pleasure with it and and that's where we need to as friends and leaders recognize what the toxic symptoms are and say okay I need to speak some truth to you. This is in a difficult marriage. This is a toxic marriage and we need to figure out where you go from here and I think that's so key you could be listening to this right now and thinking oh my goodness I'm in a toxic marriage about. I didn't know until I heard this program now I am and I would say I think we all say right you need to go get community to help you make that decision. Don't make this decision by yourself, even if it is extremely toxic still bring some friends and bring the church and that's why God gives the church say your eyes. Is this what I think it is and get really wise biblical counseling and as a pastor I say this all the time you need to get say first and community you need to remove yourself so that you're safe and then get wisdom from others.
I know you had to feel even in writing this book, you didn't want to write something that causes people to easily say I'm annoyed. Therefore, your toxic and and that there's a danger in that for somebody who who was self focused to just think any annoyances toxic behavior you're describing something much deeper. Much, much more aggressive. It's at the evil level that we talked about earlier, not just encourage people to get a copy of the book to read through it prayerfully read through it in community read through it so you can get help if you're in a relationship that you think is toxic because, as you say in the book as we've already said this week were talking about your your kingdom impact on what Jesus put you on the earth to do. And if toxic relationships are inhibiting kingdom impact. Then we have to look and save the kingdom of God is what were here for and what we need to clear away those things that are keeping us from kingdom purposes. This is tricky, and again Gary, you handled it well in your book when to walk away were making that book available this week to family like today listeners who can help support the ministry with a donation. Your financial support as you support the ongoing work of family life today is vital you make not only the Staley radio program possible. You make everything we do it. Family life possible through our website. Dryer vents are resources all that we are about as a ministry you make that happen when you support this program and so if you can make a donation today. Be sure to ask for a copy of Gary Thomas's book when to walk away, finding freedom from toxic people. You can donate online@familylifetoa.com or you can call to donate one 800, FL, today is the number again, go to our website.
Family life to a.com to make an online donation and request your copy of Gary Thomas's book when to walk away or you can request the book when you call to donate her number again is one 803 586-329-1800 F as in family L as in life, and then the word today, not tomorrow. We want to talk about very delicate subject of how we handle family members who the relationship may have gotten toxic.
Do you just cut yourself off from those family members having him.
Gary Thomas joins us again tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well. Thank our engineer today. Keith Lynch got some help from Bruce block on today's program entire broadcast production team.
We have our hosts David and Wilson on Bob team. See you back tomorrow for another edition of family life today like today is a production of family life of Little Rock, Arkansas.
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