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February 15, 2021 1:00 am
Sometimes it's best to just walk away. That's what best-selling author and pastor Gary Thomas wants you to know when facing toxic people. Thomas remembers learning this lesson after a particular blog post he wrote became popular. One woman made it her mission to discredit him and his family, any chance she could. After trying his best to appease the disgruntled woman, a friend of Gary's suggested he read the book of Luke and count how many times Jesus walked away. To Gary's amazement, Jesus walked away from people 41 times in the gospels. Thomas defines what a toxic person does, and explains the best way to deal with them.
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"Bold Love" by Dan Allender https://www.amazon.com/dp/0891097031/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_U_x_zYfZDb3YTKPFN
Bob Lepine and Dennis Rainey talk with Dan Allender on having a marriage with a bold love that’s deeper than what the world considers it to be. https://www.familylife.com/podcast/series/bold-love/
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God designed relationships to be life giving him life-affirming author and pastor Gary Thomas says some relationships are life depleting their toxic toxic people want to control you will do what I want you to do a pretend to be your friend. I'll pretend I'm in need of pretend I'm going to threaten you all pretend I'm going to protect you from others, and so whenever you're feeling controlled the means, like they don't want you to do. We believe God is called you to do that big sign that you're doing with the toxic person. This is family life today.
Our hosts are David Van Wilson on Bob Payne can find us online@familylifetoday.com how can we recognize toxic relationships and what we do when we have one were to talk more about that today with Gary Thomas, state, and welcome to family life to the next for joining us so you guys know our our listers don't know. But you guys know the amazing conduct right yes, is amazing is amazing. She has four more than 25 years.
Done research for my life. Today she I calculated this the other day she has to abrade more than 2000 books on marriage and family over the last 25 years and she's a single woman right now so she's given us all kinds of data and information helped us out. She came to me God or a month or so ago and she said also.
Gary Thomas has a new book coming out and I said book at him and she said don't you even want to know what the title is what I said I don't need to know. It's Gary Thomas's grade write a book. It's gonna be on relationships because that's what he's on it to be biblical. It's going to have wisdom. I mean, you don't even know anything else you want Gary over at her that I see what it's about. I do well maybe you should. Welcome to family life.
Gary has been a regular guest here since the book sacred marriage was released. Now, 20, 20 years ago. 20 years ago and I actually I read sacred pathways before I read sacred marriage and that was so helpful. On the whole subject of worship and different approaches to worship. I still think about is one of those books I recommend the people. Since then, sacred parenting sacred influence you've written 20 books yeah I don't will actually count but I think it's a 20 but you have influenced generation really through your writing and sacred marriage today still continues to sell so well and people still reference the subtitle of that book and as such, a paradigm shift in how we think about marriage writing, measured, and can't think them like today for second because the sacred marriage that I was nobody came out it was just limping along and it was the family life to you guys did five shows on sacred marriage that made it take off how he really at the time this broadcast cannot.
It should hit a million copies while thousand copies away at at this point but I will always be beholden to family like today because you gave it its first Bush will need to be able to be catalytic for an important message about what if all holiness is more important that happiness is just an honor to be able be a part of that. And if there's a listener that has already yeah yeah think of the website right now. Get it joined that I was because they join the millions. But I can just enjoy the million. Gary has written a book called when to walk away, finding freedom from toxic people and this is I mean I'm think about subjects you could tackle and you and I know you this is kinda like Gary's writing about toxic people because because your nice exactly and that's how I got eaten up by the toxic people.
It was terribly prideful but I had this false messianic complex that if I was walking in holiness walking in wisdom, prayed up surrendered to the Holy Spirit had the right words and the right attitude that everybody I talked to would see the glory of Jesus and say, of course you're right in and turn to him because we see Jesus what he's done in our life and we can why doesn't everybody want him and that gave way then to some people taking advantage of that and it it took me years until I learned.
In addition, the spiritual offense you need to sometimes learn how to play spiritual defense you had somebody come to you and say would you read my book and give me some feedback right will.
It was really to I I'd written a blog post on a particular issue and it exploded.
People were talking about it so you would think she would be happy because it was sort of her issue and she said that this is great here too, but you need to read to the up on. I said you know this isn't going to be a ministry of mind or others I could just more. It was a one-time blog post. I don't have time to read two full box of sugar great books, but in the meantime, I guy just didn't want to lie and boy talk about making an enemy came after you. She did attack reviews on Amazon and other books and I never see thing like it and then what really shut it down and what opened up my eyes when attacks were on my wife hello because she wrote a post defending me that was. He wrote this post because secretly he probably abuses his wife and while it's cover for that because we know that's what abusers and and Lisa EEC. It's just not her to get involved in social media or public debate site but but when they started doing that that easier for me, even on the people below you MS with my wife and now I know where you're coming from.
Honestly, I thought about as I was reading that story, I thought of the current environment on Twitter more, nothing more than on Facebook or Instagram, Twitter kinda seems to be the ground. Twitter is the ground. I know why where it is, where it's just toxic relationships blossom and thrive on Twitter and people are daily having to block followers to avoid the kind of toxic engagement that you talk about this book and to engage Bob is to increase it. It just gets worse.
If we don't walk away. We have sleepless nights, we lose a lot of time were not present with our families were focus on people that will never change and what helped me was a good friend of mine, Dr. Steve Wilkie. He's out in California is been a marriage and family therapist for over 30 years at any stage is hitting my head up against the wall and eat. He thinks I'm too nice for anything I want you to read the book of Luke count how many times Jesus walked away from people when they resisted and or how may times he let people walk away from it. What I'm a little OCD with I got that clinically, but I live in the neighborhood right next door to it so I have to read all four gospel and I count every possible occurrence and came up with 41. Now some of those because the synoptic Gospels refer to the same account but still left a couple dozen encounters where Jesus spoke the truth. People asked them to leave and he left.
He didn't sit there and fight and the many times when people were attacking him. He didn't take it.
He slipped the way through the crowd know we think of Jesus as the martyr who allowed himself to be crucified once, but there were almost half a dozen occurrences where people tried to beat him up and attacked him where he said not today. Not today.
He chose when the lay down his life but he didn't allow people to abuse him throughout his life. That was eye-opening for I can't tell you how that change the way it looked ministry that I was eye-opening for me when I read it in your book, I'd never have been a pastor almost 40 years I've taught the book of Luke have never looked at it through that lens and so I'm reading what you wrote in. I want to know exactly that was a shaker for you right when you read that is like okay I gotta change the way I live that would an end of having it it it did it.
It freed me up because I looked back and I realize all the time I spent with toxic people has kept me from being present with my family.
I'm worried I'm obsessed with what I say it's kept me from positive ministry and interaction.
What is never done is bring a redemptive resolution with the toxic person they don't change. I don't change and they don't change me, it's wasted time.
There's malice. There's ill will, a lack of focus on healthful positive fruit fulfilling ministry and and so here's what I've learned they that I think this is really one of Satan's most subtle attacks. He can't keep us from caring because the Holy Spirit makes us care. I mean it's God's love through us. We might want to love people and he can't fight that.
But what he can do instead of having if you look at that loving care as pure water to irrigate the field. What he can do is divert that water that would irrigate fields and produce a great crop and gets to port straight down the gutter with someone who not only won't receive it. But who resents it and who will attack us and it was Jesus's parable of don't throw your pearls before swine that really opened up my eyes to that to some people are so spiritually close you invite abuse upon yourself when you get involved with them. So, at what point do you diagnose the difference between somebody who's honestly engaged in trying to get help and somebody was just a toxic drain on you and how do you know the difference because unwanted so to find toxic yeah if you I love the questions I want to make it clear difficult people are not toxic difficult people can just be difficult. The best way scribed is there bringing you down. They they destroy your peace, your joy, your strength and some sin so what's the big deal they destroy my joy. Well, the joy of the Lord is our think they make us weaker and the makeups obsessed. So II try doing it in three chapters give sort of landmark qualities of toxic people. Toxicity is us do more than it's a soup. I don't think everybody is all of these but when any one of these are present in a strong way. It gets me concerned.
The first one is a very controlling nature and and this is what it because it's so against God as strong as God is as powerful as God is he so I'm controlling choose you this day whom you will serve a set he gives people the truth.
And he lets us choose the New Testament talks about demonic possession.
It never talks about God possession Paul says the spirit of the prophets are subject to the control of the prophets, and so there's this freedom in Christ but toxic people want to control what you will do what I want you to do a pretend to be your friend.
I'll pretend I may need a pretend I'm going to threaten you all pretend I'm going to protect you from others, but I am determined, you will do what I want you to do, which is basically trying to take the role of God in someone's life.
And so whenever you're feeling controlled the means, like they don't want you to be you don't want you to do. We believe God is called you to do. That's it. Big sign that you're doing with the toxic person that the second thing is a murderous spirit, and I know that sounds extreme but just as God is a God of life, and he was a God, he gave choice.
Satan is the bringer of death and destruction. Jesus said Satan is a murderer and he includes malice as a part of murder so toxic people destroy reputations that gossip up. They destroy churches, you put one or two went to church and just little undercutting and they can even seem nice but they're undercutting the leadership and they destroy peace.
They destroy joy, everybody's having a good time and they find a way to bring in. You know, guilt or condemnation or or whatever it is, but basically when I see him there, murdering and not seen this in marriage. That was a big eye-opener for me and I've seen it in parenting when somebody is being destroyed in front of my eyes that there really having the life ground out of them. God is a life-giving God Christian Fellowship brings life and encouragement. Toxic interaction brings death and despair is people who would tear you down people who would attack you. People who would. I'm thinking you've seen this insults anger of the kind of demeaning language that husbands and wives can use against one another. Parents and children can use against one another. That's what you're talking about. Let me give an example of when I worked with Godhead Ed Calder used her in ministry was using her ministry married I would say a toxic narcissist disguise world revolved around him and he he controlled her and he murdered her schedule. She had to do what he wanted her to do.
She had appointment she had her own think her schedule had revolve around his he murder her self-esteem when he had an affair early on in her marriage. She's a godly woman, beautiful woman. The course that doesn't have anything to do with it.
If you guys can achieve is going to cheat. So now she's thinking how can I be more as a wife.
I must of let him down and then he he murdered her occupation if he had to move. He moved regardless of how well her ministry was going. She had to follow, so she did that her whole life and then they were in another situation where because of the situations. Money was tight. She was on a budget, so she's in a party and she sees this younger woman in just this beautiful dress the kind address. She couldn't afford anymore and her husband paying more than passing attention to her and her wife since went off and said there is more to hear than an attraction.
So she told him after the party look, I've been to this before and I for gave you and she forgave him heroically unloved on getting the whole story. I'm not gonna do this again and he got so angry she realized it's already happened. This is an attraction. This is already happening and he knew because he was involved in Christian circles, his church and his occupation would not look well on a divorce and an affair, so he set about murdering her reputation, prayer requests, I don't think she's well. Would you please pray for my and she figured out because all these people, how you doing, really, are you sure you and just the way they looked at her and she she thought she was losing her mind because he's kind of murdering her sanity and and she's like what's going on until he had set it up and then he divorced her and of course like two days after the divorce is final marries a woman who was in that dress.
At the party, thanking God that boy in the year of difficulty in darkness. He's provided this hurt and this help. It was digital murder.
I saw the Facebook page. My sons on the Facebook page and we were appalled because he Calder Mrs. John Doe course, not her real name, which had been this other woman's name a week before meet Mrs. and it was like he was just wiping her out and then he still spread the stuff so that her ministry would end it wasn't enough to take away her family, her reputation now split the time with the kids if he thought anybody would hire her.
That would look ill on him because if he/she so awful he had to escape from her, then it might question his judgment is somebody thought she had anything to say. So he set about murdering her ministry and and and that's toxicity at its highest level were they just want to kill everything about you and Gary, we hear an account like that and all of us. I think cringe and in some of our listeners are going that does some, like me, you said there's 1/3 component to toxicity. In addition to control a murderous spirit. What's the third one the third one is loving, hate, and I use the cilantro analogy. I hate cilantro adolescent of herbs noticed me know so you know it wants there in the room but it's a genetic thing where most people love cilantro. They find it delicious and I just genetically I just hated and it's about our spiritual tastebuds loving hate what you find delicious spiritually in a healthy person, according to Colossians 3 things that we love what we want to be where we feel it fits. This is delicious to us is compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, patience and love. We don't get that with us. We should aspire to is a kind of people we want to be around. That's what gets us energized with. We recognize that say that's that's a good meal. Paul says the other kind that we need to worry about is in Colossians 318 and this is the toxic people who love hate. They love anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language and line they come alive when they're in a battle. They come alive when they're whispering about some they come alive when they're attacking someone. It makes them feel like they have purpose like they have mission a lot of us. We get angry and we might even gossip. But when we do it. It's like having the flu.
We want to take a shower, do we want that. Now I want to get off of that.
That's not who I want to be if you come out of a gossip session. You just fill me but for a toxic person. Those kinds of activities they like it. They love it with all due apologies to McGraw.
They want some more of, and so those those are three things where control mongering murdering loving hate where you you don't just do it in draw energy. Those are things where my my senses go up now and I realizing I think I may be dealing with a toxic person about it and it's interesting several of your examples are extreme and so there's part of me to go so cannot I don't know some of the better. Hopefully I'm not that bad but it doesn't have to be that extreme, to be toxic right is on things you really do a good job of that really got my interest was why do I want to confront somebody it is there stealing my joy. They're stealing me from my mission that was huge explained that for me.
This isn't about self protection. I am not a therapist. I'm not a psychologist I seek the Scriptures we hear the toxic title. Most people think it's the psychological word of the day. There is more Scripture and when to walk away than any book of done. I was astonished at how often it is addressed conceptually in Scripture. Of course the word isn't there. What got me excited was this is to preserve your mission before the Lord and and we do that for me. Matthew 633 seek first the kingdom of God.
Second Timothy 22 ground into me by wonderful, gifted and godly campus pastor will be forever grateful.
Find reliable people with whom you can invest what God is giving you your life's abuse search of dealing what you have in the others and in building the month and I realize this is about protecting my spiritual offense if I'm seeking first the kingdom of God. I wake up with his agenda. Who does he want me to talk to.
How does he want to use me today how do I find reliable people to invest into encouraged to build up. I don't have time for the toxic people and so I have that paradigm now is this person reliable or toxic. I believe it's a biblical command to find reliable people and build them up and equip them and release them and it's easy to get diverted into being distracted and wanting to improve toxic people or take out toxic people and I think that's like driving by freeway and stop every time you see trash is not what you supposed to do in life. Somebody else will deal with it when it's toxic people. The difference is if you're driving down a road in the trash is so big you can't drive your car. You get out you remove the tree limb. You remove the trash. Remove the tire and then you go and that's my attitude toward toxic people drive by when I can confront when you must, but only to the extent you can move mount of a way to complete the good work God is called you to do is are in. This was helpful for me to, as I read through that analysis by. I found myself thinking. What about lonely people who can be draining and can divert you from a broader mission. Are we to invest a lot of lonely people have an exact example of that.
Dave and I were first married. We are pouring into all these people, but there was one woman that would dominate the conversation and she was she live close to us. So every single day she would come over and spend hours and hours and hours talking about her problems and even when she was given some sort of advice or maybe you could do this. She would never change. It would be the same thing every single day like she toxic is that an example of a toxic person. Here's what I found and it takes humility. It's almost counterintuitive.
I'm not the best person to reach every person in this world. That's why we need a church. I think God is given some people particular gifts to reach certain people, but I don't think any of us are best with other kinds of people and so when somebody is bringing us down and keeping us from ability of invest in those we are called to investigate. We can trust God that okay he's gonna bring someone that can at least give this person a chance. It's like this.
If you go to Dave's football background when you've got a guy who's 165 pounds. The coach isn't putting him on the offensive line. He's the kicker, or he's the bonnet because he's going destroyed by defensive lineman, and in the same way if you got guys printer 50 pounds is probably not taken the field-goal so it's recognizing humility. God is over his church. God is building his church.
God is gifting's church. We need more workers.
So let's reach those we can and this is where it's hard in but I think the image of triage on a battlefield that I think of D-Day when those medics would go and put them on a guys forehead and what that meant is I gave him morphine. He can't be saved. I want to find somebody who might yet be saved and Jesus throughout Scripture. Pray for the Lord of the harvest we need more workers and today we need more workers, and so to divert our work to somebody that we know were not going to reach. In fact, that will remove our joy remove our peace, remove our zeal, so will lose an opportunity to talk to five other people. I think we can have to have spiritual triage. I want urgency for the church. We have a generation running away from the truth we need more workers and we need urgency and that means we have to play defense and not waste our efforts well or or a spend some time this week looking at how the supplies in family relationships because that's really where it gets tricky marriages parents, kids, extended family relation to laws yeah and I hope our listeners will get a copy of your book.
Him and start to meditate on this. Pray about this. Look at the relationships in their lives from emotional perspective is you're saying that from a self interest perspective, not from a what would please me, but from how can I best serve God and how these relationships fit into that truly at the heart of this book and we are making your book available this week Gary to listeners who can help support the ministry of family life with a donation. I think most blisters know that family life to the is lister supported the reason you been able to listen to today's conversation was because of her listers like you made that possible for you and we want to ask you to join the team and make family like today possible for people in your city of people literally around the world who are connecting with us on the family liked that app. Those who are tuning in via Alexa. Those who listen on this local radio station.
You make that possible when you support this ministry and if you can help with the donation today would love to send you a copy of Gary's book which is called when to walk away, you can go to our website to donate, go to family life to a.com or you can call one 800 FL today to make a donation. So again donate online@familylifetoa.com or call one 803 586-329-1800 F as in family L as in life and in the word today and just say I like to make a donation and I'd love to get a copy of Gary Thomas's book when to walk away, not tomorrow we are going to continue our conversation with Gary Thomas and talk about how we can know whether we actually have a descriptively toxic relationship what it would just somebody who's a little hard long Gary will be with us again tomorrow could be here as well. Think our engineer today to Scott have our hostess Damien Wilson on Bob Payne back next time for another edition of family life, family life, to a is a production of family life of Little Rock, Arkansas. Accrue ministry help for today hope for tomorrow