BONUS: Transparency in Sexual Intimacy

I hope our family like today listers have had a chance to listen to the interviews that we've done with Ryan and Selena Frederick on the subject of their book see through marriage.

We aired a couple of those interviews on family life today there great and really good solid stuff. I'd encourage you, but you can go to our show notes.

Your and you can find out how to link to those interviews. If you've not yet listen to both of them but we thought it would be appropriate not on radio but here on the Internet for those who are interested to talk about how transparency in marriage leads into the area of intimacy and sex in a marriage relationship because I'd have to say this is an area where as I've spoken it we can to remember marriage getaways for years. Couples are are desperate for honest conversation on this subject. Honest biblical righteous conversation on the subject. They don't know where to go to get it and they've got issues in their marriage that they're not sure how to deal with and so we thought let's have the conversation about what transparency looks like when it comes to marital intimacy. Yeah, I mean to me if you can write a book I'll see through marriage. He had to go there data to assess experience as I see through something so is for those who don't know Ryan and Selena. They are the authors not only of see-through marriage. But the book fierce marriage.

They've got a website and a podcast by that name and were glad to have them joining us again today and Selena when Ryan said let's write a chapter on sex for the book. Did you go all know, I've already got that one written. I can't wait yeah now I think that I remember differently. This is an area where transparency and vulnerability. I mean, what were talking about the most intimate part of marriage.

So to be kind of open in a conversation about that can feel risky and threatening and we want to do it appropriately.

But this is an interesting beginning in this chapter it says the nature and health of your sex life and marriage is a bit like piloting a drone through Wendy Scott configured that before.

In comparison can go tell a story in great detail in the book but make it short here. Basically I got this new drone for Christmas and I was so excited to learn how to fly it and it wasn't like a high-end thing. It was pretty cheap and that's a little middle-of-the-road and I was flying this thing around the neighborhood. It was great. We live in a windless neighborhood all say in this. I took at my parents house to become on this bluff and I wanted to show my dad is like that took us out. This thing is awesome to take it out no in a flight around and I'll bring her back and landed on their deck and little did I know that there is a lot more wins past a certain point I flew out there and I try to bring it back and it was just it wasn't coming back. I was panicked because this thing you know, I do not want to cost but in my mind it was like you know $500 at any time without the need to press on that as I'm like you know struggling, you know, like a jet fighter) you missing back and just will not come back to get smaller goes further away the wind currents and caught it and it just faded off in the distance and eventually it just kind of just gone and I was trying to think the point will try to make is that these things are they they feel like they may be insignificant when they're happening whether these like divisions that we strengthen our lives, or maybe sexual temptation or maybe dissatisfaction in this area of our life in unisex accounts for very small if you look at this. The time spent having sex for a couple. It's like .0625% right. And that's if you have a really active sex life. But if it gets away from you. It's just it's almost so hard to get back the luck couples feel like this is gotten away from us and it's gone used to be great. Used to be a lot of fun and now it's like it's often distant somewhere and I have no hope of getting back something so that analogy did come back around to that point that some time. So as you guys think about the first two decades of your marriage have your conversations about marital intimacy changed over those years have you had to bring issues to the surface that were hard to bring to the surface, I say. So we have a pretty unique situation. I want to talk like we did have it figured out right because it were just one couple, but we have learned kind of maybe some themes of how to have hard talks. We were both virgins and we got married, so we don't have as much baggage in that we haven't had previous sexual partners, and so there's not issues to be dealt with their per se now with that said, we we dealt with some issues of pornography early on in our marriage and say in terms of the nature of the conversations. What is really changes as we matured is the nature of our expectations and the nature of how we express those expectations and pursue those expectations.

I've come to the conclusion that I just want her and how whatever that looks like I'll take it because I want you to want honest own experience intimacy with you see your heart you know I get to know you as a person and so the expectation to completely change her as a young newly married man. It's like you have this vision of what sex could look like if you keep your eyes fixed on maybe the world's picture of it, then you are just setting yourself up to put wrong excitations on your spouse. And with that said I want a picture that we just have this vanilla sex life because honestly if like it's better than the world could've ever shown us. It's something that is just become so awesome and so anyway all on their like I can resonate with what you're talking about and and I hope this is okay for me to share. I think Marion would be okay with this on our wedding night. I had in my mind a picture of what she would when she went into change. I had a picture of what she would come out wearing her picture of what she was going to wear was very different than my picture of what she was going to wear her picture was elegant. She wanted to look beautiful and elegant, and she wanted to look, I mean this was special for her. She just wanted to look radiant and glowing and I mean it radiant and glowing were on my list but they were lower on than they were for her and so it's those kinds of expectations that we have about who were going to be for one another in marriage that can cause us to to miss one another and not value what's important to one another in this area. Absolutely yet and that's why I mentioned having the nature of the expectation as you mature, I just realized that that expectation is not the hard and fast rule that with that said, learning how to have those conversations around expectations in Reno because there are desires and wants and I think those can be really good and to express those in a way that's not like in the heat of the moment, you're saying I just want you to be this way and you're not this way. Therefore, you are disappointing me when I say those words but being able to have this conversation I think is crucial to have see-through sex life.

These conversations are hard. Honestly, I think maybe at the beginning when Dave and I were engaged they were almost easier at times been mainly getting to nasty life situations where you're tired and you've got little kids and I feel like it's an ongoing conversation because your marriage relationship and your sexual relationship are continually changing and life looks different all the time. Why do you think it's so hard to talk about it. Well I think it's so personal because it's the whole we talk about this on the radio show and when did you talk about being fully known, fully love when you're naked with someone and experiencing that together you're coming here about is the picture of the gospel in the sense that you are completely naked or completely known there or so to completely accept and love and be satisfied in that know if they're expressing dissatisfaction. You basically its rejection.

The conversations are hard because you're afraid of experiencing rejection runs around and I don't think there simple conversations either rain or bringing ourselves into that. There's a lot of complexities to each of us and self with the expectations often come like misinterpretation rights as you know, we jump to conclusions and while she's tired she must hate me a lot.

Now maybe, maybe you are just tired and maybe they smelly things happening she's not speaking from experience at all. You know you can very easily jump to his conclusions and then start internalizing that rather than talking about it because it's hard to put into words feeling I means being super honest about me.

I know that I've found it's much easier for me to speak as a pastor on a stage or as a marriage speaker to thousands of people about sex. No problem. Most evil and say Damon and are very open about that they get excited about telescoping. Let's give God's perspective, but you put me in a bedroom with my wife and and say let's talk about our sexual relationship instant fear. I'm literally kids all go work out the go-getter here. I'll do anything. But because this means okay you said it's personal. It's vulnerable.

It's like oh, maybe I'm just about me, but I think this is universal.

There's disappointments, there's expectations, there's all these things is like to go there, see-through marriage that's gonna be hard to talk about because I think in some ways and we I know you guys write about this. We talk about this. We written about this that whole love, respect, thing that a man really longs to be respected. A woman belongs to be loved.

I think that's big in the bedroom because I want and to want me. That's respect. She wants me to be tender and love her and so if I don't feel like she's interested, you know. And of course may have little kids. She may be exhausted could be a million reasons but for whatever reason I feel rejected several times over a month or a week or so.

It's like do I bring that up. And if she's feeling like you don't love me or not tender I'm just a piece of me you just care about the act.

I don't feel loved by you that she bring that up. It's easier just pretend it's actually easier sometimes us to do the act. I mean really honest men never talk about it and will just keep going our marriage to be okay but it won't be fully known and fully loved and less were willing to take that scary step, and I mean it's scary to go. Can we be honest and let's talk that that's what time I write I mean how does a will get there because that is stepping into scariness like any hard conversation.

Timing is everything right. Well I don't really helpful to break this conversation of these conversations down into two really distinct categories and that's a: prescriptions and descriptions right so prescriptions for how sex should be and then there's descriptions of how it can be. We see those patterns in Scripture so Hebrews 13 for as let marriage be held in honor above all the marriage bed be undefiled so they what you just described is I feel like a really pure desire for a husband write husband can purely desire for his wife to want him and to be kind of an enthralled and enamored and in him around the marriage bed and that's good enough. But a lot of guys a lot of young guys.

In particular, especially with the advent of Internet pornography there bringing the marriage bed things that are defiling right there wanting different things that they've seen elsewhere in there expecting the wife to act like women. They seen act elsewhere in his word, act intentionally because they are acting and they they were expecting these acts to be performed with them or on them and that's all very defiling is very unhealthy, and so I think the first thing to consider in heading this conversations is how does the Bible prescribe a healthy sex life.

What does it look like and how do I get there. So there's always a lot to be said around that but that's the first baseline is okay. What healthy expectations and I bring in what unhealthy defiling expectations and I bringing you to slough the unhealthy ones keep the healthy ones. Many talk about descriptions so how sex can be so we don't know what it should look like. Now how how can it actually be what is the potential here. You saying that the conversation you have to plan another yeah I mean as a husband you can have to do some of that between you and God in between you and your spouse that is part of being see-through right same like listen on this is my past. These are the excitations that have been unhealthy to see you know I'm dealing with this help me deal with this help me get this out of my expectation list right it's not good, but now we can look at God's description of how it can be in the for that. I just love the book is on the Solomon them. If you read that book with clarity and full charity. You see a really honestly will make you blush that with the picture what's happening is on the Solomon and the rapturous love and the push and pull in the chase and the pursuit that happens between lover and their beloved husband and wife just a beautiful thing so you can have to race the world side of it, it's really hard because of our sexualized culture and then embrace the biblical vision which is not in any way lame is not in any way like boring.

It's exciting. It's fulfilling and it's pure and, in that it will exceed anything the world could ever paint anything they could ever offer. So, I think, is looking at in those two different categories really helpful in terms of what is prescribed for health and what is described for what can be so if you're trying to be super honest in this area in your marriage. Do you share fantasies you share thoughts that might go through your mind, that would be you think harmful to the marriage but you're like why gotta be honest I actually thought about this person again.

I'm hypothetically here but you and I know that talk to men who have asked me that question and I think is better price for my marriage for me to deal with that and get rid of that, rather than to share with her cousin. Then she's going to think next time we make love. That's where my mines going to go and it isn't every time, but it is sometimes so again you're the expert says see-through Marion. So how see-through do we get man okay so II think any of these conversations are so personal and so difficult to my copout answer the enemy like work through this bike with discernment, with the help of the Holy Spirit with counsel if you need a biblical counselor or pastor mentor Elder what it looks like in your life. A friend who advocates your marriage. With that said, there are I will.

I won't use the example of another person, but so you have a fantasy of maybe some like we mentioned earlier some sexual reality.

Write an act or something that you want to experience with your spouse and presenting that to him or her. Our rule is, and we encourage young couples in this is that in general like anything that is degrading or anything that could be painful is just not edifying and so how could I in in the spirit of loving my spouse.

Whether that's a wife loving her husband or vice versa.

How could I advocate for something that's going into grade cause pain or cause humiliation right and so much of again speaking of the couples who have dealt with the pornography thing in that case I wouldn't bring it to Selena saying hey, this is something that I want to give it a shot.

At some point in that case I would bring it to her and say I recognize that this is not healthy and I want you to know this because I want you to have access to that part of my heart. But just so you know like this is not an expectation of holding back and try to release it and give it to you in that way we have those conversations and I can tell you that it's been an amazing deliberating thing for her because now it's spoken, is no longer like what is he like what what what is he expecting right now. Instead it's I know that he just wants to love me well and he is clean these things out and because of that the reciprocated love is so much better.

Selena you're talking to a lot of lights and women that are dealing with sexual dysfunction.

Sexual struggles in the relationship, or even being see-through and honest. What are the issues right now and how are you helping them to be more see-through in her sex life earned.

I think a lot of the issues are the expectations and T9 and not enough I don't want to or I'm afraid or there's been abuse right in the past and not really knowing how to engage think sexually. The biggest thing I think for me has been to just be honest I think and encourage that honesty, you know we we talk about Miley Cyrus and the buck that personally I say I found sex even most enjoyable when I'm giving of myself to and for my husband so this idea of selflessness on and being emotionally vulnerable takes risk and I think that's I think that we need to do exactly what Ryan said is just bring our spouse into that and say this is really difficult for me and not just try to do it on our own, not just try to make an ID this Randy lets me greatly. Okay like psyching yourself out far right that really seem like were struggling with that said, I'm struggling. I don't feel connected with you even though I know were here naked and were doing the act. I feel like it's just there's reasons that I may not be like Spanky help me understand some things actually walk in this together.

I think being open like that has been the most transformative lease for us on further waves that may be dealing with husband who has an addiction delivery led me to be sort of his accountability partner for lack of better term, and what that looked like was not policing it was very much I love you. You're my spouse or my husband and I want us to get through this together. I don't want you to just battle and I met checking with you but I want us to know. Yes, when those times happen. But how can I love you well and when you're confessing to me.

Yes it's gonna hurt me. Yes, I feel shame. Yes, I feel brokenness, but by God's grace I don't want to live that one state. I want to move forward in this so what is that look like together.

While the Bible says that I am called you not to forget and I'm called to extend grace, but he's coming to me again with the true repentance he's coming with that meaningful risk of same like these are the things I'm struggling with not yet it again you now shoot not to laugh. Make light of that, it is. I'm really had a hard time on struggling with this and I and as a wife that hurts me that hurts me that you think you need to go there and I take a very personal but I want to love you see this, how can we be better at this in Congress are this addiction together because it's assets not you versus me it's ass. I know that when our kids were real little, I wanted to be intimate, more often than she did in our marriage and that you know even at that.

In that moment is like. Of course she's not interested she's got little kids hang on her all day. There's not there's poop their diapers. I'm just another guy trying to hang on or you know is I did not want to bring up this idea like I just don't think your is interested in it as I am because I understood her life and I get it but and so it was attention of I'm just going to keep this to myself, I'm just going to you know bear this cross for this season of our marriage.

But here's what happened.

I did bring it up. I don't know when or how, but I said you know I feel this and feel little frustrated and she brings up her desire to be loved. Said I would love it if you would touch me during the day nine sexually like kiss kiss me or hug me. Only tiny touch me is when running back together and so that was really honest and that was hard for you to hear down the reason I bring it up is sort as an encouragement because I almost didn't and so because I did and I did not want to hear her answer. I did that was not what I was looking for but when I when I realize what she said I was like oh my goodness she wants the same thing and I'm not expressing what her makes her feel loved on think it's only sex and it's like it was a revelation to like oh my goodness, I am called to lay down my life and love her as Christ loved the church, I preached that I write about it, and yet all I'm thinking about is can we have sex and she's like can we be in love and it changed our marriage because here it is because I was transparent I learned in our marriage get better, not just in the bedroom, although it did affect the bedroom. It affected our marriage and so it's again I reflect on what you're trying to say in your book, not just in the bedroom but everywhere goes there. You're not going to be the only one that gets blessed you both are going to be on the go somewhere. You may never go if you never bring it up so bring it up in a in a in a like you said in an appropriate way tender way the right time and then listen and maybe you guys can be in a different way. This can be even more beautiful about this today. Let's bring God into think that into our bedroom to be transparent with our father who loves us, who created sex like I think it's so important because I didn't do that for years because I didn't grow up in the church.

I had a sexual past with people other than Dave. I was so damaged. I felt so much pain and I didn't talk to God about his planning, his vision for our own intimacy in our marriage and I think when he started bringing God into that into my prayer life and talking to him about my own fears I own brokenness and in bringing God into our bedroom and we started even praying about our sex life that made a big difference to