Fearfully and Wonderfully Made

As a black mother raising a black son in a majority white culture. Jasmine Holmes says there are a lot of important messages she wants to make sure her son hears from her dear loved your black on purpose God major skin for his glory. He made you for his glory. He did make an accident you are beautiful because you are fearfully and wonderfully made, and regardless of how the world responds to the way to even fearfully and wonderfully made.

That doesn't change the truth of the fact that God loves you and cares for you in your brown skin and in your brown body.

This is family life today. Our hosts are Damon and Wilson on Bob Lapine. You can find us online@familylifetoday.com what's it like to be a minority family raising your kids in a majority white culture will spend some time talking with Jasmine Holmes about that today. Stay with us and welcome to family life to the thanks for joining us. I would think if if we were having kids in your head to know when we have the time that will that had its challenges, but I would think very different yeah if you were a a new parent welcoming a son or daughter in the world today, you would be thinking what is ahead. What kind of a world are they gonna grow up in the issues were facing in our culture today are just very challenging to be challenging to know what conversations to have and how to have been. It's a real different time and I think it's important that we had this conversation some sort of lever grandparents, you know, because we could just started to come in and give them back cares our advice will seal and how the other side we got for joining us. In fact, this is kind of fun.

I don't know if she remembers this, but Jasmine Holmes is joining us on family life today Jasmine. Welcome to family life today.

Thank you so much that it is a delight to have you.

Do you remember the first time you are on family life to ID remember actually thought we ought to just revisit that for a second, long ago was this was more than a decade ago you were 19 years old. Jasmine's dad was our guest that day. His name is Buddy Baucom and he had written a book called what he must be.

If he wants to marry my daughter and we thought we had a call Jasmine and just see what she thinks about this book that her dad has written and so are you ready to hear what you said you would like to know I did years old you ready for this. I don't know Jasmine, you're you're 19 years old) are you still to give this book the Jasmine Baucom seal of approval.

When you're 25. If the guys haven't stepped up you're okay with that. At 32 there you were 19 now you're 30 years old, right here in this process Philip how old were you when Philip approached your dad was almost 24 to center 24 and how did that go. How did you feel about it.

It was interesting. So we met each other at a conference on May 23 birthday and we walked up to hand me my mom and for my mom. It was love at first sight seems like helping me in the arm and she goes and Phil, can you tell me that he's not telling you she is you crazy, do you not see that tall chocolate hunk of marriage materials.

Now I don't answer the first words that Philip ever since anywhere Re: 40 Baucom's daughter and eyes like great thing he think about if and when I talk to anybody as I can fully fan and he wasn't and he was in a weird way like he was talking to my dad because they were to do an interview together and that he was looking for him legitimately, not for an autograph and talk to that conference and he actually interviewed me for a podcast is very cold because I wasn't interested and said he couldn't even use the footage because he would ask anything that yes no maybe and sell. A year later, we were both in California for different reasons and I saw on Twitter that he was on the same piece that I was on. I like that so finding that were both here and get dinner with a friend to whom we also know we shall get dinner together and that night at dinner I realized that I was like okay maybe I like him and he started talking a little bit afterwards and then all of a sudden right after I feel like we figured out your interest in any chatter he just stopped talking and I told my dad that night as I know him and talk for last few days in, I felt like he was interested but then he just went completely cold and stop talking to me and my dad was like when you know Jasmine might the right guy and intimidated by you today by me and you know you won't have to worry about him stopping talking to you. Little did I know he had sent my dad email like three days before that and said they were already talking back and forth. I didn't find out for another week or so my mom is like this is not funny Unita tell her she's like wondering why this guy thought talking her meat that was in March that we officially started dating and then we were married by October.

I think Philip needs to put in his online profile. Big chocolate hunk of marriage material. Mom was right and she likes to rub it in my face all I think Tim did mom Jasmine is not only Philip's wife about his daughter Jasmine is an author, she's a mom. Jesus occurs. She's a podcast or together with Jackie Hill. Most of Kroger. They got a podcast what your podcast called it's called let's talk yeah and it's a great podcast. She is a schoolteacher. She's written a book called mother to son that you actually wrote when you were pregnant with your second child. Did you know it was good to be another boy when you were pregnant I didn't intone like halfway through writing the book I talked to the publishers. The day that I was pregnant with the first day that I talked about the idea and so in the day that I turned in the final manuscript was two days after I gave birth to him, so they were like twins when you were writing this book up a part of what was the inspiration behind this book is raising a son who's gonna grow up as a minority in the majority what culture you have no idea that we would be where we are today. In that conversation and then all that's going on since you wrote the book would you change what you've written, given where we are today. I don't think I would.

I really think that God gave me grace to talk about things that trees that were transcendent regardless if there is going to be in the next six months to year and grateful for that is when I turn in the book I was very excited to be done with that. I was also when I started writing it. You know some other things are going on in the country that I finish writing it work really going on anymore and so I said you know people. This is not really something people are thinking about and talking about as much anymore but hopefully comes back up and when it does. This is helpful book as a black mother. We're always talking about talking about and I had no idea that a couple months. A few months after the book actually came out that more people would be talking about these topics help us understand what black mothers are talking to one another about we just don't have a sense of example, I the other day took my son on a play date and it was rough. My son is he similar to me in that he's like really expected and really dramatic and so every time he throws a tantrum or you know has a crazy exorcist head spinning on my jeans and sorry I took him on Friday and he was not treated very well by the kids that they can each other better than a new hand and they were very nice to him and his response was very like level X response and so it was just one of those situations where I was coming home and I was just feeling really and so I ended up talking to some black mom friends of mine and just sharing with them.

Hey, it was really hard for me when Wayne acted this way, the plaintiff because he was the only black kid there and it made me feel like maybe don't make assumptions about him because of the color of his skin, or it made me feel like I really had to stop and separate.

Okay, these kids don't know him as well. They're not treating this like not treating you know I just had like go through all of these mental checklist to make sure that my heart was right to make sure that I was having expectations of my son that you should normally have a four-year-old and not special expectation just because he's the only black kid in the room so there is a whole checklist that I went through that these moms understood uniquely because they're the kinds of things that they're thinking about for their sons all the time. Yet I know that as I read your book mother to son. I was thinking something Bob did. It's like it was so apropos for 2020. You know, I was amazed that you wrote it months or maybe years ago and here we are in this thing and it's very beginning you said one reason I want to write to my son when to help them understand if he feels other because of the color of his skin, and you just told a story about that right so explain what that feels like for a mother to be able to explain it to her son. It can be difficult because as parents and you guys know this and it's funny that I wrote a book that deals with parenting, parenting book, but only 30 alignment doing this for four years but I have learned as a parent, oftentimes my parenting comes out of a place of hurt in my life or place of unresolved things in my life and so I look at my son and I'm able to see through his eyes. All of those little childhood wounds. I have all the little childhood stuff that I have going on. I just want to speak to him the words of my parents spoke to me the words that God speaks about me on the words that I wanted to hear which wire that your love, your black on purpose God major skin for his glory. He made you for his glory.

He did make an accident you are beautiful because you are fearfully and wonderfully made, and regardless of how the world responds to the way that you can fearfully and wonderfully made.

That doesn't change the truth of the fact that God loves you and cares for you in your brown skin and in your brown body and I think I'm talking to him, but in a way I'm also reminding myself as well. Let's talk about some of those wounds in your own life. Could you you get into some of this in your book you remember when you became aware of the fact that your skin was different than others kids skin. The drip line with yes I was really young. My mom had just given birth to my brother so I was maybe three to half going on for and I was at a daycare center and I was the only black kid at the daycare center and I would get into fights like really big scuffles and my mom would come to school and ask what happened, and I would not able to really articulate what happened. So one day she him to the school because I had sprained my arm running away from a little boy at a place that fell off the top of the playset armor sprain and finally the entire story came out, which is that the kids were calling you the N-word calling you monkey chased me around the playground and in my little three-year-old brain no quite what that word meant. I know quite what those things that I knew that it meant that was different. I knew enough to feel shame to where I didn't want to tell my mom what they were saying about me.

So that's I think the first time and it's sad that you know it said that it was a negative experience the first time that I realized I was different, but that was definitely what you know I read that story last night and I teared up for you as a little girl and yet I also was amazed.

Was it your mom, your grandmother went back and said were not doing this you know she's not a friend. Mom does your mom that went back there yeah tell you that. So if this happens to win, or one of your sons, how are you and respond so it's one of my best memories because my parents are Christian parents when we get into a fight we get interest rate they come up and there like what would you like, I realize that he had to do first more I realize that you're not getting out of this teacher, but what what if you done and there are a few key memories in my life where my mom just was complete and total mama bear and that was the first one that I remember of her just grabbing my arm and talking to the teacher. I don't know what she said but I just remember like a whole Lotta hands flying a whole lot of you know, just like very expressive and I never went back again and she was like you never go back again. I'll keep you home so you start school to do this and it just made me feel so safe and protected, and that's a feeling that I want to duplicate my son at any opportunity I hope that I don't have that particular opportunity to duplicate that for him. I can't imagine that. I hope that I never have to live through that as a mother but on the receiving end. As a child my mom to show me a great deal of love in that moment and embodied what it means to be a mom right to protect your child, Jasmine, do you remember when you told her all that happened. What did she say to you I remember her just saying this is not your fault know this is your fault.

It was so hard for her because for weeks I had been getting sent home with like a sheet you know your mom gets you all ready for school and to put your hair up in the cute little passing grades in your outfit, and she said she would come to pick me up and I would just look like I had been scrabbling my hair would be all over the placement close to be disheveled and she was going on and I jazzing the fighter, which again I told you my son when drama King drama queen. So my mom is like, I mean you know fighters this make sense to me, and I think once I assure her being so hurt that she didn't realize all the time that she's getting these toxic Mike Chapman to stop fighting at school. He got a start listening to teachers and start I think once she realized that she had been not aware of the full story. Things are going on is felt so bad and she just kept telling you, I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I had known I would not bring you back, so your four years old and you're really the victim of racism on playground. Did you experience a lot of grown-up I didn't experience a lot of outright racism.

Growing up, I experienced a lot of casual prejudice.

Growing up, what is that look like just little things of you know as a teenager for that firstly that I ever had a crush on it so funny. I was getting married.

I was moving out and I have had the same furniture in my bedroom since I was like six years old. At the back of the drawer and I found a Valentine for my very first crush so funny and so Philip is like who is this guy and he said you know he's asking for the story actually I didn't remember until you asked me the story that I told a friend that I like this boy and he told the nine-year-old boy that Jasmine really likes you and the nine-year-old Blake looks at me and he goes oh no, that's gross. I don't like black girls that pretty and my very first like oh I feel like I feel butterflies at this point thing ended like that and they were just a lot of little things like that you know you're here is not very pretty. It's really fizzy or your skin look sweet. You know, just little little things and then as a teenager just lots of questions that were motivated by a heart of racism. I don't think, but maybe in comfortable sometimes or anything different, or maybe fill other, but nothing is outright is that as you talk about that I'm thinking about the fact that those of us who are part of majority culture. We didn't have the experience of feeling other or feeling different because were part majority culture is front of mind for someone who is in a minority culture, is it something that's kind of always present their I'm different than the other people in this room, yet always in the back of the mind right. It may not always be right up at the forefront. But it is something that is a black child growing up in majority culture. When I was in private school and talk to me differently and I distinctly room for my mom having conversations with me and and saying you know Jasmine like when you act out in these ways, it is not the same as when your white friends act out when you do ask it is not the same as when you write friends to ask so almost like being held to a higher standard in wanting to be exemplary because I was the only black person in Austin person of color in a room and then also just know people I always joke that everybody talks about white people with the one black friend and I was like the one that was me and so all of those stories involving the one black friends I have some version of the story for sure. Did you feel that as well in the church community because I know that you and your dad was at a church that was predominantly white feel pressure is there as well, yet different, and I was homeschooled from fifth grade until the end. So most of my social interactions in junior high school age range were at church with young people from my church. When you write a book. It's part of you, especially this. If you're writing to your son at your passion is what you your bleeding as you are writing it. What were you hoping like I just want you like what was going on in your mind as you are writing this I wanted him and really everybody who read read the book to feel seen. I think that such a huge piece of identity which I love to write about anything having to do with identity motherhood womanhood being a black woman being an American. All those things that go into the high of who you are and as I was writing to my son and to the church at large. I just wanted people to feel seen and understood to feel something that they can connect to because even if you're not a black mother. Most of us have experience of a mother's love.

A lot of us have children were supposed to be a family of faith. And so this is a sister of faith. Writing a familial story, so I wanted it to be familiar and feel like we were connected, Jasmine. There's a phrase that used today that describes a lot of what you describe for us. Your people will talk about experiencing micro aggressions that I've heard that phrase and part of me is likable. Doesn't the Bible so you just overlook that stuff and kinda move on, or is this something that we should be more alert to a more sensitive to be dealing with. So how do you process the whole idea of micro aggressions and as you think about your son who will undoubtedly experience some of those grown-up will you coach him to just it's a man's glory to overlook an offense or will you say no, you need do you need to stand up for yourself in these situations, it depends on the offense.

So I think that there can be a couple of different categories of micro aggressions, which is not a term that I like to use. I can stay away from some of the top button terms because I like there really loaded and people kind of immediately have this gut reaction to them, but maybe one category of person who is literally just asking a question because they want to know the answer to it right have had friends who asked me all the time about my hair for you have to wear sunscreen or do I have any of you know those questions in some people's minds could be construed as micro aggressions in my mind know people are curious people want to know.

I understand I get but sometimes people say things that are rooted in assumptions or something people say things that are rooted in prejudices and I don't feel that is loving to let a person continue in that kind of thought process. I don't think that is loving not to shed light on something that a person may not know, and so it might be the difference between assuming that person means you ill or maybe just saying hey I don't know if you realize that what you said could be offensive.

I did feel a little bit offended. I would love to talk to you about. Why would you be open to that, and I've had several those conversations as an adult, and most of them have ended really well. It's always awkward, but I think it's important to love people by sitting light on areas where they can love you better and being open to and people want to shed light on how you can love them better as well. To do that when you're 30 years old is different than when you're seven years old and there's something that happens little sliding more when when your son I'm just imagining that your son is the last one picked on whatever sports team because his skin is different and people just have a prejudice or think there's something wrong with him. How will you train a seven-year-old to deal with that kind of a sense of slight or being acknowledged this difference. What will you tell him he ought to do in that moment in that moment, I honestly don't know because my son is four but I do think it's really important for me at this stage of Lynn's life to frontload helpful truth into him so he knows that he's brown. He knows that God made him brown on purpose. He knows that that's beautiful. In fact he say when you're so handsome he goes and no, I'm just like I say think you will like yeah he's not, so he knows he know that it itself and so I am more concerned at this point in his life with solidifying his identity that I am with teaching him all the ins and outs of advocating for himself because I can come with time. Any child advocate for themselves right as any child or how to say no is any child learn bodily autonomy is any child learn it all just comes from practice and in my case is a 30-year-old mother. A lot of it comes from trial and error. So my concern at this point in his life. At this point is understanding is just teaching him who he is and how he's fearfully and wonderfully made those other things, in a developmentally appropriate way to scan saying like my mom did.

This is not your fault.

You are beautiful got major brown on purpose for your sin is so insightful because, as he turns 1012 1416 he may say I know when you asking that question. I think inside those can be a doubt because he's here and all these other people say in your your planting a foundation.

This can be so critical in the years to come. Whether that's a white boy or a black it doesn't matter. It's a homely goodness that is can be challenge and your mom and dad instilling that. I just wonder if all you will somebody said him. You know your you're a big chocolate uncle future. Well, there is so much a book that is applicable for every mother's trip and yet so much that I think for majority cultural readers to read and go. I've never thought about that I had to consider what this relationship is like in the uniqueness of it. I think it gives all of us a better idea of how we support, how we navigate how we help you in this process how we can learn from one another. I hope our listers will get a copy of your book mother to some letters to a black boy on identity and the hope written by our guest, Jasmine Holmes, we got the book in our family life to the resource center, you can request a copy of the book from us online@familylifetothe.com or call one 800 FL today to get your copy in the title of Jasmine's book is mother to son. You can order it when you go to family life today.com or you can call to order one 803 586-329-1800 F as in family L as in life, and then the word today. By the way, if you are a regular family like today listener, but sometimes you miss hearing us on the radio.

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Love one another in a marriage relationship. Their books are 100 ways to love your wife 100 ways to love your husband very practical books that we'd love to send your way again as a way to say thank you for your ongoing support of the ministry of family life to the we appreciate you can donate online@familylifetoday.com and request the books there or call to donate one 803 586-329-1800 F as in family L as in life than the word today. Now, tomorrow will continue our conversation with Jasmine Holmes talking about raising a son in a majority white culture how you help the child understand his identity, which transcends but does not overlook this background, Jasmine joins us again tomorrow. Hope you can tune in for that as well. Think our engineer today. Keith Lynch along with our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our hosts David and Wilson on Bob opinion. See you back tomorrow for another edition of family life today. Family life to the production of family life of Little Rock, Arkansas. A crew ministry help for today hope for tomorrow