Getting Closer to God and Each Other

For more and more couples getting married today.

Promiscuity is part of their past their experience and Wilson says when that's the case you're bringing challenges with you into marital intimacy. We carried all of that into our wedding bed in our marriage bed and it was like it was crowded with other people.

I felt so insecure I felt like there was competition.

I felt like – with this other girl better than me. I felt so fearful and I worried will he be unfaithful to me. He had had multiple partners before will I be able to trust him. And so there were many many different consequences that we suffered through.

This is family life today hosts are David and Wilson about the pain you find a someone family life today.com sometimes we are completely unaware of how sins from our past still affect our relationship, 20 or even 30 years later. More about that today. Stay with us and welcome to family life today. Thanks for joining us will were right there or we were were listening this week to have a conversation that Dennis Rainey and his wife Barbara and I had with you guys. They plan Wilson. This was more than a year ago right after your book vertical marriage was released. This was right after you had gone to New York to be on the today show. You remember, oh I remember because Dave could not sleep the night after that interview that I came home and you know you is live right and there's 4 million some people watching and you have regrets go. I wish I would've said this footage wish you hadn't said. I ended up in some crazy story to a question they asked that ended up.

I mean it. It's a beautiful part of our marriage were and was creative in the area of intimacy in romantic right in our marriage and that you know later. I just felt like when I end up going there and it always ends up okay. That's the other that were actually good to hear a little bit about intimacy and challenges with intimacies you've experienced challenges all of us of experience challenges in this area in our marriage. You talk about it in the book vertical marriage is now a video series for couples called vertical marriage. That's a five part video series that can be used for small groups or adult Ed and and you guys are transparent but I think appropriate. In addressing this subject has a tricky subject. You have to be very careful because it's emotional. There's been many wounds, even in our marriage and in our life in this area and so we want to do. We want to honor God and how we talk about this list was just a few weeks before you guys begin the new host of family life today that we had this conversation with Dennis and Barbara and you talked about the challenges experienced in this area. Dave and I have been chaplains for the Detroit Lions for 3033 year, three years through three seasons. Yet I bet you can't tell me how many playoff games. We wanted 33 seasons zero no lot more net one somebody sent an email to our church a couple months ago and said, by the way I looked up the record they Wilson is the losing this chaplain in the history of the NFL 318 losses 33 phase scenario.

That's what you got. Congratulations.

So this Bible study was all the years I've had a Bible study with the Detroit Lions wise and one particular Bible study.

One of the wife said tonight. Our one year anniversary and my husband is running a limo he's taking me to a fancy restaurant downtown and I said good for you now what you can do for him. She said going. What else is there to deal.

I think he should make it special for him and my ego by something that would be really fine that you feel comfortable and to wear underneath your crescents because that's not really who I am and I said that it might be really great for him to think about him in those terms. And so the next morning.

She calls me and she says in that was the best night of our relationship and husband was astounded because I've never done anything like that before and at the end of that time.

He said that you get this idea and she said and he said let's even go to the Bible study. He said I never want you to miss one of those Bible studies. Again, this shows up at our couples Bible couples Bible study for the team.

We always have and her husband shows up. He's never been there never came to chapel anything out and never knew me as a chaplain, but never showed up and there is that's all because the last week his wife entered that area of their marriage and brought a little spontaneity to it and here's an amazing thing this guy in about six weeks surrenders his life to Jesus. They are now. Today, with six kids in full-time ministry. It all started with lingerie.

Those just wonderful. Ito stories that God used that to draw man and woman to Christ in it's a beautiful part of marriage we tend to think about this aspect of marriage in just a functional terms rather than thinking about it in mystical terms.

There is something profoundly mystical about intimacy and marriage and the impact it has for good or for evil on oneness between couples and their yen, one of the things that I never knew until I really dove into Scripture on sex because you and I grew up like most people probably hearing from the church's sex is wrong bad evil always joked that the only think I ever heard in church grown up about sex is it wrong don't do it. If you do you you go bald. David called Nelson there is so we know who anyway so when I'm loosens a very helpful. It's good to see, but know that was the only message I ever really heard and so I never expected that the Bible would talk about sex and such beautiful glorious mysterious terms and then as I started to study it. This is one of the most amazing beautiful intimate gifts God ever gave us now, so maybe we'll hear that I can't even appreciate that because it's been warped and its hurts pain and there's pain and abuse. But God's original intent was absolutely incredible and I never learn this in school.

I remember in sixth grade it did the birds and the bees talk they had a little thing and you're all embarrassed is a 12 year boy clicked on the fallopian tubes in any way. I never heard the snow ever told me this, that when you make love, and this can be in your marriage or outside your marriage. You are there's a soul connection it.

It is like Bob said, mysterious, how in the world. Is it deeper than physical.

All my gosh, it's a much deeper physical, which is why it has to be so protected because you're messing with your soul here. If the one night stand or a committed marriage relationship you're giving everything, not just physical but spiritual.

Even soulless to that person. So that's why God says protect this and it's one of the reasons why you guys early in your marriage struggled in this area because as you. You started marriage the way most couples start marriage today having already been sexually active with other people and you brought that into your marriage and now the two becoming one has all kinds of baggage attached to it.

I'm really glad about that about. Thanks for sharing our world without you sure that I know it evokes regularly and and I'm not trying to dreamy confidences, but this is a part of your story on kid because and I wanted to talk about this because we had no idea, no idea how our past sexual experiences would bring luggage baggage pain into our new marriage. I don't think anybody talks about it.

I mean our world is saturated with sex with pornography, with with things on TV the movies.

Everything that nobody talks about the pain, whether it sexual abuse, whether it's addiction to pornography, but for Dave and I what happened wise.

We carried all of that into our wedding bad in our marriage bed and it was like it was crowded with other people and I felt so insecure I felt like there was competition.

I felt like – with this other girl better than me.

I felt so fearful and I worried will he be unfaithful to me. He had had multiple partners before when I be able to trust him. And so there are many many different consequences that we suffered through one time we went to a wedding, probably six or eight months after our wedding and were certain that in this church. I could tell some strong within like she's not enjoying a swing in the car and drive home to what will you thinking she goes.

I was just look around the church and I saw three or four women that you have been with you know, for me it's like what I was in the past it's all done I'll guess what that is the past, but the past is right here. If I could've taken those back in that second, I would but I couldn't. So now we're in this marriage thing on my gosh we got a deal with not just you know how hard it is be married now, it's like we brought stuff in that we gotta work through you think it's just the bedroom. It's so much deeper than the bedroom. What is deal with me was that look like coming when you got this and you're daring. Okay, we know this is here. We know this is a part of our past. We don't like that it's a part of our past. We can feel it affecting our marriage now do little marriage counselor what you do to get to the point where you can be together as husband and wife and that that is no longer crowded in my answer. My first answer would be. We talk we talk this through and again I would not encourage a couple go into details about your past, but I needed to let him know enough and she needed to share with me because one things I was so naïve was about abuse and again I thought Will Anne's had some abuse in the past it's way back there 20 years ago.

It will not affect today as a spouse. It's like I need understand what you think how do you feel how can I love you and she feel the same thing toward me so there's a lot of talking.

We talked about previously, we had to go to a place of forgiveness with each other and then be known to let that go and move forward. But again, it started with hearing listening and trying to lovingly be a partner to one another. I think you I love that God has do overs. I love that he renews our minds like Romans 12 says I love that with time to heal and I think because of our honesty and openness that helps.

I think a lot of people should go to a counselor who can be 1/3 party to have be a neutral voice and to help them walk through some issues that might be hard to discuss.

And when we were in seminary we are taking classes about how to be a counselor, and in some of those classes. That's when the abuse came up and it flooded me. I was overwhelmed because it had tucked it away, not thinking that it was doing anything to harm my marriage and our intimacy, but it was doing a lot and so I think that Dave is overwhelmed with my barrage of emotions and feeling like I was tainted and I had so much shame and embarrassment and it was hard. I'm thinking about people listening to this and thinking to themselves. Talk to have this conversation with my spouse. I mean first of all, their shame and guilt on my part.

I don't want to revisit that. Secondly, it's just gonna drive the wedge deeper between us because it's gonna bring hurt and pain that the other person why am Trevor told me about this at all.

So they go know know the safest thing to do is to try to keep this walled off and as long as nobody ever knows that any of this happened we can muddle along with what were doing and you're saying that's the wrong answer yet. I'm saying I totally understand that that thought. I've been there. I honestly still feel this way. It's easier for me to talk about sex on the stage of church that it is my bedroom.

My wife, it's scary. It's intimate.

It takes courage to say I'm scared even bring this up and again you don't need to go into details and E every couple is different about what needs to be revealed. But it's like get on your knees. Ask God for wisdom asked God for strength and open your mouth and say we need to talk, let's go there and it's scary but I will say this because we done it, God will meet you rate in the moment of your fear and he'll walk you through and we are closer today than we ever would've been if we'd never brought this up or gone through that journey and honestly I can say this 38 years in a marriage. Our sex life better now than it ever could or would've been, it is an part of it is because we've decided to go there with each other as honestly as we could ask you Barbara and Dennis you guys have been married longer than we have. I see it is having hills and valleys in this in our relationship with intimacy. How of you guys define that's true. I definitely think it's a up-and-down experience and I think that as you grow and you change there are more discoveries to be made about one another and I completely agree with what you both have said about being transparent in that area of your relationship because we've done that too, and it's made such a difference because the more you're now in the more you feel safe and where you feel safe then you can experience intimacy if you feel safe. You don't feel known and welcomed thing you can't go to the intimacy it's it's a progression you can't jump instantly into intimacy without first crossing those bridges of safety and knowing one another. So I yeah I agree with you totally. I think you're touching on where most men miss it.

In this area think men do not understand the need for his wife to be safe and to feel safe as she gives herself to her husband, first John chapter 418 says there is no fear in love but perfect love casts out fear.

For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. I think the husband who is finding things are not going well with his wife and the bedroom needs to ask his wife.

Do you feel safe with me. Do you trust me. Can you give yourself wholeheartedly to me, and if not, what am I doing that is creating fear. Oh that's a courageous thing that really is and then listen and listen carefully to what is said and what isn't said because the real assignment of a husband. I think he's commanded to love his wife as Christ loved the church so far. Simon is the love and first John four says perfect love casts out fear. Your assignment is to present your wife before Christ holy and blameless, without spot.

That means there's no spots of fear and that it's the wise husband who becomes a student of his wife and asked the question how can I love you and that way, practically speaking, not just with words but with attitude with actions and that being tender and being gentle with his wife Yoko's were still in this journey. This wasn't just your one of your five it's it's been a continual learning, growing process. Dennis what you said I never understood what made her feel loved. I and we gunfights about this about the sexual part of early ship is I've I wanted her to be more in student sex. It felt like I wanted it more, and she wasn't cursing at little kids and I have no understanding of what she's carrying around. I'm just like, frustrated, and yet I didn't know that a woman longs to be cherished and loved and I honestly thought will make in love makes you feel loved it with you. I'll never forget the day we readily know if it's still out there. You might know if Willard Harley's book, his needs her needs still exist this us, but I've never picking it up and he had the top five needs of a woman top five needs of a man because his subtitle was how to affair proof your marriage if you don't know what your wife's needs are somebody else to come in to meet, though, so I'm like oh my gosh got Rita so I look real quick. I didn't read the book I just picked up the chapter titles deceive him. He's like top five needs of a man number one sex and then I look at the woman's and she hadn't have sex in the top five so you and remembers as I brought the book to her and again on the young husband try to understand this am frustrated, so my okay, help me understand as I look at his top five needs for men and he says sex is number one. I have to agree I think he's right.

Sex isn't even in your top five. Why is it your top five in your to me she said oh it's number one, two and three. I looked down I like and it was a revelation for me to understand her usually said guy should there be rightness down there. By the way, you better write this down because I think is right, or at least ask your wife. Is this true for you. He said number one for woman affection, nonsexual touch, which I had asked again what is that you know it's like holding hands and put your arm around her and just being close.

It's like affection, number one, number two conversation that's talking communicate number three honesty and openness yet us to those second two like we want to know you and we want our husbands to know us and I was mad at her for not having wanting sex with me and what she had every right to do is go.

You are an affectionate, we never talk. I don't know your heart and when I realize that's foreplay.

Not that it's all about sex but it's like I'm not being Christ.

I am not serving my wife to say if that's her number one need sacrificially love her and assented a better even in the bedroom but that isn't the goal. It was like I want her to feel cherished and loved and that's what sex is to my wife. I want to know what your responses to what he just said so you hear those three things for a man who doesn't get it. How can a wife help them understand that's kind of where we were and so I remember having Dave come to me with a book like this and when I think those are the top three. Like when we talk that's romance when you just touch my arm open a door, and hold my hand. I feel like you love me and you're pursuing me and I remember saying and it feels like you don't pursue me anymore. You pursue me sexually, but you don't pursue me relationally. That really hurts and it makes me feel unloved just recently our kids were home for a while and we were all sitting and look the other room watching TV in one of my daughters-in-law was on the sofa and my son was in a chair across the room and my daughter-in-law just kinda patted the seat next to her and said punch computer next to me and he said this church really comfortable.

That's overlooking the golf that I had the ad so that edgy pets again so he gets up and sits next to her and then something happens. He gets up and goes out of the room for something and comes back and sits back in the chair and I know he does. I looked at him and said son you are not paying careful attention. I blessed in front of her. That spot on the sofa is still open right in the recent that I was smiling while I was doing that is because I thought how me times as Marion said to me come sit next to me and is a guy I'm thinking why Kleiner is so much more conduct than sit next to on the sofa. Why does that matter, but for a woman to me matters doesn't okay let's talk to the wife that they pulled their husbands now and they're still not what he will.

How do we encourage Barbara, thanks, and I don't know. I mean it's a hard one because we are so different we've had that conversation. Dennis and I have multiple times because what our needs are just different, but that's the way God made us and if we really love each other. They may need to learn to speak each other's language.

Love language until it's also being patient and trusting God's timing and praying that God will open her husband's eyes and ears to see and understand. And I think we live in such an instant culture to do that. That's part of the problem. We expect change to be really fast and sometimes it's not. Sometimes it is that sometimes is not yet in our marriage. We been having this conversation for decades and growing. I'm him so excited about the next decade is strange as it may sound we've grown and grown and grown and not grown, we have we have matured over the years in this area and I really would say to the guys and it's true both ways step up.

It's that simple.

It's like the bedroom and the sexually ships not about me. It really is and I want to Philippians 2 and everywhere. My marriage including the bedroom. I want to consider her needs more important than my needs is what Christ did for us and he modeled after us. Now Christ lives in me.

It's about her feeling loved and again to a spouse reciprocating that you can have a beautiful sexually ships if they don't it it isn't about them. It's like I want to love them in such a way that they feel valued and cherished. So, I'm not an affectionate guy. It doesn't matter. She is an long sports on the step up and be Christ to her and give affection, even if it's not my natural man we been listing to a conversation we had little more than a year ago, Dennis and Barbara Laney about talking with Dave and Wilson right is there book vertical marriage was being released their style video series that accompanies that book and I've had this experience when we speak on the subject that we can to remember getaways couples are so appreciative when we open the door on this and talk candidly and biblically about this in an appropriate context because so many of them are crap with questions or insecurities or shame or whatever, and when the physical intimacy in your marriage is not working that affects everything about your marriage and it's, you know, as we all know everybody else is talking about it. The cultures by constantly talking about it and often is appropriate way and it's often the truth and so what is God's heart. What is God's truth in this, it needs to be discussed, and it can really help people. For the first time that Dave and I went to the weekend to remember marriage conference. It was in Chicago I was 19.

Dave was 22 I did not grow up in the church. I didn't go up attending a church and so the first time we sat in this session on sexual intimacy. It was the first time I had ever heard God's game plan for intimacy in marriage.

It was mind blowing to me because I had never heard this before because I'd only heard the world's plant and I have to think as you guys get together tomorrow night and for the next three weeks with listeners for a small group that your to be hosting the question of God's plan for intimacy is probably going to show up in the small group conversation at some point over the next three weeks. Dave and Anna to be hosting on Thursday nights for the next three weeks starting tomorrow night and then continuing through May. After that there will be hosting a small group around vertical marriage. You can sign up to be a part of that small group. It's good to meet at 8 o'clock central time and when you sign up to be part of the small group which will be a Facebook group you'll have access to the first session of the vertical marriage series which you can watch whenever you'd like. And then when you come to the small group everybody will have watched session 1 and the conversation can begin from there so that a family like today.com if you I don't know if you're part of a small group right now. If your small group is been meeting online or if you just haven't been meeting for a while or your meat, not in somebody's driveway. Whatever's happening. You can join an online small group that Dave and Anna to be hosting starts tomorrow night and continues for three weeks go to family life today.com for all the information and that will get you access to the first session from vertical marriage that you will need to watch before the small group begins okay let make sense again.

The website family like today.com is where you can get the information given questions call us at one 800 FL today if you want a copy of Damien's book vertical marriage that's available for order online family life today.com and then the complete video series is also available for anybody who wants to use that in a small group or a Sunday school class in the summer or fall.

Whenever those start up again. All the information is available on the website of family life today.com Oregon call if you have any questions, one 803 586-329-1800 F as in family L as in life, and the word today, we got the president of family life David Robbins here with us and this online small group thing they were doing with Dave, and I am starting tomorrow night we are not the first people to come up with creative ways to employ the video series, and to get people gathered together for a small group even while were socially distanced. It's been really neat to hear from different couples who started leaving it when it was launched earlier this year when they could still get together with her friends right and then midway.

We started hearing people moved to zoom groups and do all these creative things and one couple from California said this recently we hosted family life. New small group study vertical marriage with 10 couples and had to move it to zoom due to COBIT. 19. They said it was an incredible small group and laid the foundation for what we are now walking through they went on to say we watch the family life TV episode after we finish vertical marriage about grieving at a distance in our discussions led to such sweet moments together. Talk about grief that we are experiencing now and in our past, and then she said everyone in the group opened up and share things that they been holding onto an almost every single one of his broke down and cried in some way. Our relationships grew deeper and deeper as we shared together in this is all over zoom and then walking faithfully together being friends together in this unit time and I just think it makes the point that don't have to be fancy, you certainly don't have to have it all together every one of us can take the intentional step of faith to leave a small group together group of people say hey I want to grow my marriage to you vertical marriage video series is such a great resource easy resource in order to connect with other couples and have really intentional conversations and you know as hard as navigating the coming months may still be we are seeing families hunger for God and growing together more than they have any very long time and it's our prayer that through this season.

Families will grow closer to God stronger together and will serve their neighbors with compassion and the gospel.

Thank you for being a significant part of what God is doing in the home. In our day and you know who's making all of this possible is friends of family life who are continuing to support this ministry. During these challenging times we are so grateful for those of you who are monthly legacy partners and those of you who from time to time will get in touch with us and make a donation so that we can continue to effectively develop godly marriages and families who change the world one home at a time right now. If you're able to help with the donation would love to say thank you by sending you a copy of Barbara Laney's new book which is called my heart ever his. It's a book about praying that it's actually a book of prayers for some of the difficult circumstances we face in life. The book is our thank you gift when you go online today to make a donation of family life today.com or you can call to donate at 1-800-358-6329 that's one 800 F as in family L as in life, and then the word today and we hope you can join us back again tomorrow when working to talk about what is a challenge for a lot of people, particularly a lot of wives and moms.

It's the issue of wanting to be in control of life kids and even your husband joins us talk about how she has wrestled with being a control engineer today. Keep links along with our entire team on behalf of our hosts David and Wilson about that next time for another family life, family life today is a production of family life of Little Rock, Arkansas crew ministry help for today hope for tomorrow