Is the Church Really Dying?

Let's be honest, we at times are reticent to be too bold about our faith because were concerned that if people know were Christians still marginalize still tune us out. Glenn Stanton says we ought not be concerned about my work with a lot of secular academics in my work and even around our office like oh yeah, those people hate us find that to be the case, they'll like either don't know any Christians of ago. Oh I love what you guys do you know and they have no church you no experience whatsoever.

So that's the thing is, people do not have such a negative view of Christian. This is family life to her hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson on Bob Lapine find us online@familylifeto.com Glenn Stanton joins us today to talk about how we as individuals and how we as a family can develop confidence and be bolder about what we believe. Stay with us and welcome to family life today. Thanks for joining us. We did up a survey years ago asking listeners in the area parenting. What's most important do you do need help on conflict resolution sibling rivalry McCandless to discipline your kids, you know the number one thing was that my kids will follow the faith to its spiritual formation. Brad's right and it's the reason why we sometimes get into conversations here about how is Faith doing in our world because as we raise our kids.

We look at at some of the indicators and and we think are we raising kids in a more hostile culture. A culture where it's going to be nearly impossible for them to hang onto their faith. We got a friend who is with us today to help us understand where things are in the church.

Glenn Stanton's joining us on family life today. Glenn welcome think is good to be with you and I can alleviate our fears. Today we will end up with no fear. Everybody will be luxurious. It's interesting what you just said to me just to jump in here is is the phrase kids these days. Every parent has said that for many, Eve.

I know things went south pretty. Glenn gives leadership to the family formation studies at Focus on the Family and has been here before. We talked about a book he wrote called the ring makes all the difference. That was really a landmark book I read about the women's Super Bowl as it was, it was really a great book about the important of marriage as opposed to cohabitation and why marriage matters in our culture you just finished a book called the myth of the dying church.

How Christianity is actually thriving in America and in the world and people read that subtitling go. No, it's not. It's not thriving that's not what we've heard, that's not what they're telling you.

Hearing about how many are are now identifying as atheists, the rise of the nuns you've learned all of this. Are we just reading the wrong stuff were we visit fake news, what's the story well it's interesting, I mean I was with a group of apologetics worldview educators down in Mexico were doing a conference and I was telling him about. You know my book coming out there like so what about all this other research. I mean all this other research that they have been citing again, it says something different and I just said well it's bad research know what you get a safe but the thing is the problem and I try to solve it in my book is a lot of these bad news stories are just come out of the secular pressman.

They also come out of the Christian pressed but there based on a research report here research report here and there, typically from organizations that are not academic organizations. When I say academic I don't mean you know highfalutin but sociologist of religion from major universities who study this stuff in and out and have been doing it for the last 30 years these sociologists who just do good research. They come up with very different stories. We think okay secular academic unit they're knocking to tell a good story about Christianity. You know what they do and they're quite strong about it. And so the book myth of the dying church. I think the big thing that it offers is a 30 year view of the high points if you will, of the academic research the highs and the lows of what that body of literature says and so you take if you will. Kind of the mean conclusion or the medium. The general conclusion of what that data has been saying over the last 30 years and the conclusion is quite strong that the church is bigger today it's more influential today. It is more vibrant today than it really has been ever while. And that is not what we've inherent you will just set a knot in it. I know you know this better than we do, but it isn't just inset in the press secular right pastors like me have stood on the stage and quoted that research data in your sin in a wrong way and again. It's almost like the marriage divorce right right I'll absolutely filing that you know for a long long time. But that's exactly the thing. I mean I say a couple of things in the book tongue-in-cheek for the people who are the people of good news. We sure can be a trend that I and this idea not and I end the book this way and it really hit me is not only is the dying church story bad sociology. It's bad theology because it's like you know you think the Trinity, father, son and Holy Spirit there not to be disrespectful but there have in their meeting lighthouse did going with the church and the Holy Spirit is like just can't break through. I mean it's not like it's ever been. I you know I'm just having a hard time convicting people of the truth know the Holy Spirit is life-giving, he cannot be otherwise.

The you know the gates of hell even will not prevail against my church, Jesus said so I've heard for years. If you want to know what America's gonna look like in 50 years go to England today empty cathedrals and spiritual malaise is that not the trajectory. You know what fascinating and and that's exactly the right question to ask in the beginning is always asked us to always there was some research and in relatively recent that came out of jointly, Harvard University and Indiana University to sociologists secular and what they did was they wanted to test what they called the secularization thesis and that is basically as cultures develop politically and economically, technologically, that they turn more secular like Europe.

They tested that in the United States and the way they tested it was to look at what they called vibrant faith meaning attend church more than once a week really pray not just pray over your meals but pray about stuff and expect that it take the Bible seriously. Authoritatively, they said we are just absolutely amazed that there is no decline in that kind of faith and they say that America is not, and doesn't look like it will be following Europe in any way they came out with a follow-up study to that and basically they say you know what we're finding is we look around the world.

Europe is the outlier that I mean you you look at different places in the world. America faith is just coming along. It's not so great in Canada but there more European, even though not geographically, but in China in the Middle East and Africa and South America. Faith is X loading like crazy. I mean it's at and and that's a definitive academic term exploding like crazy interest is in the sociologists are finding that to be the truth that when you're saying that because the pushback would be okay. It is in the older generation, but not in the new and the next generation. But you're saying that's not true.

It is not currently living in a post-Christian culture in America, then well yes and no it in a way we can get into this, you know, it is the church shrinking the answer is yes and no. You gotta break it up where it is, are we living in a post-Christian culture. We hear these bad things that are happening I'm in Hollywood. In many ways is getting worse. The press is getting worse. Academia is getting worse in some ways, but if you look at just Americans across the board know it's not you think about this in in in any town. How many churches are boarded up gone out of business. The pastors are laid off. Youth pastors are laid off flying yesterday. You know in airports.

You can find Christian books in any store. There you can find them in target. You can find them in Walmart. You cannot go anywhere in the United States where you cannot dial the radio and find about three different Christian radio station. Same thing with TV.

I mean, these things are continuing, no look around you. Christianity is just not going out of business like Sears or you know some of these different places. Hi, I heard Tim Keller talk about the shift this way.

He said 50 years ago, even among non-Christians. There was a general sense that thinking Christianly about things yes existed. So secularists have a an underlying Christian morality that right and wrong were defined in Christian terms, and he said the shift we've had has been that among secularists there is no longer assumption that a Christian way of writing about things is the case over people of faith who use to in the culture be able to go out and say to their neighbors who don't go to church.

You know that couple should be living together. They all get married and their neighbor go yeah that's that's wrong for them to do that now. It's like what's wrong with that, it can feel to us like the world is changing right what you're saying is that among the faithful.

That hasn't changed.

It hasn't changed in some ways it's growing. This is an interesting indicator along those lines tonight and I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying Bob but you think about when Barack Obama was running for president.

He was very strong to communicate. I am a Christian and you know even Donald Trump. You know I am a Christian. I'm with you.

Why would they do that right. That was no longer if you will, even fashionable or politically expedient.

You know it's interesting Pugh tells us that only 7% of Americans have a wholly negative view of the church.

The overwhelming majority of citizens in the United States.

Secular not have a generally high view of the church that they do a good job of encouraging moral standards that they do a good job of helping the community and things like that. And, surprisingly, not a majority, but close to it of atheists and agnostics hold that positive view of Christianity is really true yeah because I don't live on twitter is going there and you would think, based on the pushback in the comments that it isn't that positive but your center resources and actually assailed it. It shows it differently and it's interesting because I work with a lot of secular academics in my work and you even around our office like oh yeah, those people hate us find that to be the case, they'll like either don't know about focus, or they don't know any Christians of ago.

Oh I love what you guys do know I use the plugged in things and they have no church you no experience whatsoever. So that's the thing is, people do not have such a negative view of of Christian women when I'm out talking to people. The sorority work. What you do. I say work for family life what is family life. These are folks who never heard of us.

I say what we try to help build stronger marriages and families. We think that's important in the culture and almost everybody I'm talking to those but we sure need that right follow me ask you this, if they ask what you do and you say, pastor right. What are they say I don't get pushback on that either.

I mean, people go.

Tell me more about your church is it if I'm on an airplane than the other headphones).

Defendant made in NFL a little bit and he said when I went people asked me what I did and I said I'm an NFL player.

He said it was amazing this conversation ago. He now we the pastor said it's a little different. Now they say what he did. He says I'm a pastor that I make an eternal saying that I do feel this so tell me that if I if I'm feeling the right thing. It feels like because I'm a pastor of a bigger church.

It feels like there's a negativity toward mega when it comes to church. You know what I might be wrong but I feel that like I like pastors I like churches, but when you're the bigger churches. Yeah, we have suspicion yeah now see and that's another thing again I'll go back to the yes in the know I always say you know being a researcher.

The truth typically lies somewhere in between.

And I think what you're referring to as a pastor is people typically think okay he's gotta be a pretty slick operator. Amazing TV evangelism that kind of thing but in terms of its than nondenominational churches that are growing in effect, this guy Barry Cosman.

He is the sociologist that coined the term the nuns you know those who report no particular faith.

And so he's kind of famous in that world hate there's that guy that coined the term know he's he's cool.

He's like the Bono of socio-that way right, but I called them I called them and talk to him interviewed him. He goes you know, one of the things I was most frustrated about was my research. The nuns thing took off English, but what they didn't report was the nuns are not the biggest growing religious or a religious group.

It's the nonsense and I so will explain that to me than nondenominational churches. He said I found that that is the biggest growing community of religious folks out there that is Glenn I'll answer it with this. There were some Canadian scholars and they wanted look at mainline denominations. It's the mainline denominations that are tanking and they asked the question, are there any mainline churches that are growing and they found a few and what they found out and they titled their study theology matters and what they found out was mainline churches that teach the Scripture that call people to discipleship that have vibrant worship as if a real God for gave real people of real sin. Those churches were growing.

I think that's the answer to your question is these churches. People can relate to them.

You know what that pastor this worship. They have small groups I can really meet God there. In a very simple way and this guy. He's teaching the Scriptures. He's not compromising.

He's not trying to make it relevant or you know change it to the modern age against those churches that are like, well, maybe Jesus wasn't God or maybe the resurrection was just a symbol. Those churches are hemorrhaging members there leaving quicker than they can imagine. And it's the nondenominational churches that are growing because their preaching and teaching the word of God, God said, my word will not return void will not return void and were seeing that exact thing today. I know that in our city. Detroit, that is what I've seen, the mainline churches that are dying in and again that's the message out there they're all dying. There's some that are hemorrhaging and they're being bought and taken over by 900 jazz saloon, a beautiful way because her come into the nondenominational churches and say we don't want this to turn into a business or club right could the gospel continue here but we are not able to sustain ourselves. We come in a partner and an X in its actually a beautiful thing to do what you do right, exactly. It's interesting mean to interesting illustrations of this and I and I share one of these in the book is multicampus church very you know hip young pastor lots of young people, vibrant worship, that pastor decided by himself one week. You know what I think we should start affirming homosexuality not just being gracious and kind and loving but affirming homosexuality, he announced that and he has a video online.

He talks about our church imploded. I mean just people left. These are young people who said you know what if you got a compromise on that kind of thing were outta here so you see that They continued to be a hip church have hip worship you know things like that but the congregation saw him compromising in a radical way and they left. Here's the other thing, some scholars, two of them one from Columbia University one from UCLA. They're doing this work together. They wanted define same-sex attracted people who attend church regularly. What kind of churches do they attend they found out to their own chagrin that same-sex attracted individuals. 2.5 times more likely to attend Bible teaching churches. Why is that will first of all, maybe they find out that those churches are actually loving and caring and welcoming. The other wake up and go to church in the morning you want to go to whole milk church. You don't want to go to skim milk right and that's what they're finding and you know will is your sexuality, affirm their know I get what they're about.

I understand what they're about. But you know what I encounter Jesus there and that's the big thing that I say about churches is you know what welcome everybody love everybody teach the word of God faithfully and in clearly in the trust the Holy Spirit to do with the Holy Spirit does. I got invited to speak to a group of pastors out in your area outside the Denver. This was a number of years ago I came out and spoke.

I said there really headwinds in the area of marriage and gender and sexuality. I said, here's I'm I'm here to remind you.

The Bible teaches that marriage should be between a man and a woman owns a lifetime commitment.

The Bible teaches. There are two genders there is male and female. There are people who are same-sex attracted and I said, and the Bible teaches that sex outside of marriage is wrong.

I said these are three things that if I had said this 30 years ago everybody was that we don't need you to come her dialysis. Everybody knows this but today I'm here to remind you this is still what the Bible teaches. I had a pastor come up to me afterwards and he said you're a dinosaur really yeah and I said well let's talk about he didn't want to engage him while he just wanted that you said you're a dinosaur and this is not where things are going now.

I watched a progressive strain of of younger evangelicals who have said, we want to keep what we like from the past, but we want to mix them where we feel like the culture is we think that will will be more attractive than we think it's more in line with who Jesus is just younger know that's true It's you're not mentally younger so you've seen this kind of swell of progressives is there a future for that will it's interesting, and that is a big big point and you're right it's not just younger people, but we have to understand them in one sense.

Okay, first of all, that pastor I bet his church is not growing, but the other thing, even as you were saying that this this young group coming along and you know believing generally in the things of Scripture but wanting to apply it to their own culture and doing it to their own way. I'm thinking you could be describing the Jesus movement in the 70s and one of the things about being young is being idealistic and again the sociologists are very clear who kids are today in terms of their political ideas there. You know, can't the world be more open and embracing and you know, as we say when you get a marriage. Some kids and a mortgage, the world becomes a whole lot more simpler and that's both good and bad but we need to know and again that phrase kids these days that has always been a phrase it's interesting couple of years a good I was doing a heavy study into the Puritans on the issue of sexuality.

Guess what they were Puritanical about sex. What I found out reading their stuff is even they their pastors said get this. This may be the last generation of Christians that we will ever see because their kids were having sex outside of marriage was an epidemic, but is not really epidemic today either minutes. You know what kids have a mind of their own. The experiment they try to be independent and this has just been true of human nature is human nature. There never really was a golden age of the church. A golden age of morality and again Adam and Eve. You know what, it didn't take long. God performed their wedding.

He did their premarital counseling.

They did this little thing called ushering in the damnation of humanity. One of their children killed another one to me like it's it's never been this great perfect picture and so we need to know that so is your message to parents. Hey will be okay. Relax or is your message know we need to be on guard and vigilant and be concerned because there's some drift occurring. You know what, here we go again it's the right it's parents, be vigilant, you know, as is you guys say all the time. You know, parenting is 90% you showing up right being on the ground there and the research is very very clear on this, and I've a whole chapter in the book that parents who live a serious Christian life.

Not a perfect Christian life.

But you know what we attend church more than we don't we read the scriptures.

Not every morning at 730 but it's a part of our life.

We pray together. We talk about the faith.

It's what the stains do the research is very clear those kids growing up in those homes are extremely likely. Some scholars say nearly guaranteed to carry that faith into adulthood in their own way with their own application. I do that different than my parents. You guys are the same way. I mean that's the nature of things. But it's important for us to understand that that yes faith when we transmit it to the younger generation in a good, faithful, but Again Not Perfect Way, God grades so much on the curve you know with parenting and that but if you're never giving your kids a kind of serious faith. You know what they can hang on to what they never really had thought they were going. I don't know you guys think and I'm excited me when you hear good news it again you said earlier, where the people.

The good news. Why were not preaching good news I think of this when you go to church in your typical cup we go to church and you sit there near the pastor say hey by the way, you know the divorce rate in the church is the same as the community it's 50%.

Yeah, you sit there and go on my doing here this and help where were as bad as her BIOS and then you find out later that was never true right it was fake news and it was being broadcast even in the church, let alone outside church and when you hear this very same thing. The church is not dying, the kingdom of God is advancing the gates of hell will not prevail you sit in church or you just hear this broadcast ago. I'm excited that is good news are not get involved. I a church I want to get involved in what I hope my kids I want to. I'm on the winning team yeah never been in Tinian doesn't live a underlining pain and this is so significant in in what you're saying and that yes, it is good news.

We are the people of good news and it's good news. Not because we are great marketers. It's not because were relevant. It's not because are you know our logos in our church in our name. Going to one named churches elevate things like that is the Holy Spirit into the Holy Spirit will honor churches and places where Christianity where the scriptures were discipleship where worship is authentic and that's what we need to know. So yes, the good news is we are led by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit cannot not be life-giving. God is on the move. He's never stop being on the move and we are on the move with that if you want some good news read your Bible first. That is the source of it and then get a copy of Glenn's book the myth of the dying church that will encourage you that there is a path forward. That is a vibrant, faithful path for us to follow. We got copies of the book our family life today resource Center order from us online@familylifetoday.com or call one 800 FL today again. The book is called the myth of the dying church how Christianity is actually thriving in America and in the world go to family life to day.com to order, or call one 800 F as in family L as in life and in the word today to get your copy of Glenn's book.

I was thinking today about the overlap between ministries like family life and local churches. We really see ourselves as allies working together to help support the local church in the ongoing ministry that God has called the local church to we want to provide resources provide help via a supplement to the regular spiritual development that happens when people are part of a local church congregation, family life, to day should never be a substitute for church for you. It should always be an enhancement to your local church experience one of the reasons I say that is because we've always said here that when it comes to financial giving. We believe that your first priority. As a Christian should be to support your local church.

That's where you should give first when it comes to supporting ministries like family.

Like today. We are so grateful for those of you who are able to do that and who choose to do that in addition to the support you are providing for your local church family life today is luster dependent. If it weren't for listeners like you supporting this ministry family life today would not exist.

So thank you for those of you who go above and beyond you give to your local church and then you give the family life today were so grateful for your investment in the reach of this ministry to help effectively develop godly marriages and families. If you're a longtime listener and you've never made a donation after you've donated to your local church. You can go online to family life today.com and make a donation there or you can call one 800 FL today to donate over the phone. We appreciate you. Thanks for coming alongside us and being a part of the ministry of family life to day tomorrow to talk more about how as parents we can be actively engaged in helping our kids develop a strong, resilient faith, the kind of faith that lasts into adulthood again.

No guarantees on this because our kids make their own choices, but what is God's calling us to do. Talk more about that tomorrow to be with us for that one. Think our engineer today. Keith Lynch along with our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our hosts Dave and Anna Wilson and Bob team will see you back next time for another edition of family life today. Family life to day is a production of family life of Little Rock, Arkansas crew ministry help for today hope for tomorrow