Comfort Through the Valley

When couples are experiencing infertility. There is often stress and strain on their own relationship with you.

Our process part of the reason for that is because it's natural for us to look around to ask who to blame for the struggle were experiencing. We want that one explain it somebody's responsible. If it's responsibility. We have some sense of release rights in some catharsis, bizarre catharsis that come from blaming someone and then both end up treating themselves. The communication channels. Breakdown and the marriage just implodes and if it happens that say the clinician discovers that it's attributable one way or another, and that adds further problems because then we know what the problem is the source the problem and that becomes the subject. This is family life today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson, Bob Lapine, how can husbands and wives come together and pursue oneness with each other in the midst of a struggling infertility to talk more about that and welcome to family life today.

Thanks for joining us. I don't think I realized this when we first got married, but Marianne wanted to be a mom pretty quick and and again I don't think I knew it when we first got married.

I don't the guy knew it when she was wanting it except I do remember we got married in 1979 and we did not have her first child until 1981 and mostly will go the let's a good gap but there was a there was a trip we were on how we were driving from Tulsa to Kansas City and she was she was crying on the trip and she was saying. I don't understand why God would give me the desire to want to be a mom and why we can't conceive and I was a young dumb husband like what is going to happen or whatever.

I mean I was in no rush, no hurry, but this was an ache in her heart that took me a little bit by surprise.

We were ultimately able to conceive. Then we had what what's called secondary infertility which is after conceiving.

We had along. Where we were not able to conceive again and we went through the same kind of pain that she was feeling wanting to be a mom for a second time. People look at us. We got five kids and they go we didn't have any issues with infertility, but more couples than you know are struggling with the heartache of wanting to be parents. And for whatever reason God has not open the door for that. I think most of us have a story like that. Maybe it's not asked that someone we know and I know for Dave and I it was with our son and his wife.

We are so excited when they told us they were pregnant immediately sent Dinky a lesson and then on a miscarry and miscarried again and by the third time you begin to lose hope and you're so fearful that you're not real sure how to respond. Yeah, not sure I've ever seen. The depth of pain and despair. Watching your son and daughter-in-law go through from a distance and yet it's your family. So many talk about the topic retirement today is real. It's it's hard well and we've got somebody here to help us walk through the issues of infertility impact that's the name of the book is written. It's called walking through infertility. Matthew Arvo joins us.

Matthew welcome family luck today. Matthew is a professor. He teaches at Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee, Oklahoma. He teaches what is it at ethics yet Christian ethics and are they are they paying attention.

Sometimes I mean is, you bring up ethical issues. Could you talk about very real, very contemporary issues are a lot of these kids like an ongoing we need to think about this, and yet every they are very interested in the island. I would think if I'm a college student that would be one of the classes I would sign up for.

That sounds like fireworks and we're going to discuss and we can have different opinions and nursing retention. Is that true and that's it's like that year younger. As far as a college professor that students really love that I think so well on the subject of infertility interesting given the fact that you could be writing all kinds of social cultural philosophical issues. This is the one you locked onto to write this book and part of that is out of a personal story not for you and your wife but with your brother yeah that's right, might my younger brother and his wife were infertile for a number of years that was that was a difficult time for them and we didn't then really know what to say or what to do. You want to do something you want to say what they need to hear and there's really really very little you can do or say that really lives up to the moment because you're not with them when they turn lights on there, laying in bed and those thoughts come flooding at an end one at the grocery store and here child in a cry or laugh.

On the other: these are tangible moments and you can be there for those.

But you can listen as we learn to do I think was learned how to listen learned how to forbear, learn how to be patient with them. How did you even become aware that they were wrestling with infertility because it's not the kind of thing that the people wear a badge saying were infertile, and somebody's been married for two or three years.

You don't know whether their childless by choice or whether there going through infertility knows exactly right and that that's one of the common features experiences it's undiscussed that's on talked about for some very obvious reasons, which some parts are likely just keep private and don't want to talk about that, but there's also stigma cultural stigma associated with it and some don't want to. Then I want to talk about that allow the thermal private, but with my brother. We were very close, so he was open.

He told it was going on in what ways he could and just the crowd with them right with them is pretty communicative and had to draw him out so much.

These usually come in the heart of the slaves are gone. The next step because to write a book you have to be passionate as it takes work and effort in research, so what happening you that made you think I need to write this it really actually the conversation with the four best robotic Kansas City and he had makes plain to me that there's some couples in our church that works, peers, infertility, and that there's not a lot of not alive at the time of great stuff out there to know what to say to give them and us.

We were he was asking me about that. I started thinking, and that you know about this personal story with my brother and I not that I know some of these people were talking about and what can I say in words.

I'm not sometimes not so great and personal conversation and what I want to say and what things come to me, but when I get writing.

It slows me down and I can say something that I really feel like I can say the right way and I got me thinking about a little book like this where I just give a sense of the shape and also a big part of his best click the couples that are going through it. The books would help enlarge their world a little bit because it systems totalizing experience when there and it is so totalizing they just feel that it's six or takes up all the oxygen in that period of life, but I wanted to do in the book was to just help giving a bigger picture. All tell me this. So go back to when your brother has that initial conversation where you know obviously you can price sense, he's unveiling summits.

Often times, A secret done chair. He shares it with you. What's the emotion in the room.

What did you feel. I felt sad for them.

I felt powerless to do nothing I can do you have any kids at the time not yet, but it very soon and Internet became something to when we conceived sort of made at the special slot to talk to him on the phone until them was going on and he was so happy for us. Of course, but I wanted to be sensitive to what they're going through and onto the feelings or even other on the telephone, but not close to each other. There's still that like the pauses in the strain that comes up in a conversation like that and I just felt for we have these desires for children and their deep their deep and they they almost feel like biological you know they're just part of us these once so it's really hard to start a be with someone knowing that there's little you can do except be present on think about the number of times I've talked to young couples, may they been married three or four years. No kids showing up in the back of my mind I'm thinking so what's going on here. My wife will nudge me insight that's going on and I'm thinking why I want to know if there are struggling. I will struggle with them if there not I want to nudge him and say let's get on with the show named kids the truth is, Bob's nosy since it is no is intentionally intrusive, but with a redemptive purpose attached to okay is better than no sleep.

That's the same thing. So in terms of posture.

For those of us who may know, couples, and we don't know whether you're dealing with infertility.

We don't know whether their childless by choice. We don't of the dynamics do we just keep her mouth shut or do we say something. I think that's a great question. I think if there is a sufficient level of trust and rapport where a question like that could be received even in egg like a jocular way and the venue is right absolutely. But if it's in a more public gunned, therefore, is not there. Couples who are experiencing prolonged infertility. There asked that it's it's deeply wounding those if those of talking about that and people mean well you folks at church asking you where you guys going to have a family here in out and grandparents. You know, eager to be grandparents and the couple is not that Mike drawing the data scan and so that's that's itself wounding, that there's a recognition now such as our own problem, write our own recognition but not others see that we don't have children and you said there's some shame attached to it in the hearts of people who are trying to conceive and can't they feel like there's something wrong with them, but that's very regularly the case so common it's ubiquitous that while I'm a human being and what one thing that human beings seem to be good at is reproducing. They don't have to be told much about that we can do that and when were not able to. It seems like this would biological failure, and that we know medically and scientifically now lots of reasons why a couple can't conceive or have trouble. But from that person's point of view, it feels like a failure and it feels like you're not able to do basic thing that human beings been doing successfully for millennia and you also wrote in the book a little bit about okay from a Christ follower and this could be for a nonprice phone as well. There is even a sense of God betraying me almost punishment. What I done wrong outing that was that was what Marianne was if you if I'm trying to play by the rules here. I'm trying to do what God wants. Why would he withhold from me. What is a blessing for so many. And what's the longing of my heart think there'd be a real introspection, then let's run with me, God is there something wrong. Had I done something you is this because of my past and so there's probably a lot of questioning going on think it would be very easy for that to go into our identity instead of oh I can't have a child goes into I'm broken. Something's wrong with me as you walk through some of that with your brother and sister-in-law a little bit about my brothers very mature in the faith is a minister and had could support his situation wasn't quite so vexed. The pastoral advice and counsel in support from up. Anyway wasn't wasn't that necessary but but I've had some other friends in the past for him that's been difficult, and it did require very sensitive discussion and what you do it with something like that. Who's feeling that way.

How do you help them recognize that that we live in a fallen world. But this doesn't mean that your worthless for a broken person yet and when the first things I say is as sincere as again. I mean it is. I'm so sorry you're having to go through that. I just just tell them that is it's hard, and to to let let them know that I can see in what ways I can. It's hard and not give any answers initially yet yeah yeah did not feel like I got an arsenal of possibilities for them and that I can fix it. They very likely that they come to this point of telling me they've they've talked to people they facing clinicians they've they've taken steps amount. I tell them anything you haven't heard, but one thing that AB they are lacking in is someone to be present to them. What does that look like to be. Did you know in practice it can be something like maybe getting the guy they be getting the guy and just having some direct conversation.

Direct questions I doing you know going on and then let it is drawing them out so that they don't have to's shelter under that experience in the weight of it by themselves… The pastors a lot about this talk to our elders about this about how to how to just be with it. It takes just sticking to it and out one of the things you want to do is fix and one have the tools for fixing, but in this case like the best thing you can do is just sometimes listen to someone grateful out about the miscarriage thing that struck me as I read through your book you just talked about the present part. But let me go back to the first thing that struck me earlier was the things not to say seriously.

You mentioned many different just had answers. I think I've set him at times and how harmful they can be taught about that little bit what don't you say to somebody is really struggling.

It might not just be infertility but deftly of this this topic as well. Yeah, God has a plan for you which is of course treatment person of faith is following Jesus thing believes that God has a plan for the question is a star with the story beginning is it's not that they don't realize this at the justice disjunct right and it's trying to interpret what this disjunct means that God loves me.

God wants this thing for me.

I have this thing that I want and it's not happening and I can't make it happen. The bone resolve here is one thing I God got a plan. Of course he does. Let's not use that as a way of explaining away the deep difficulty or grief that someone we don't know in Romans 828 out of your pocket so you know, God causes all things to work.

You look at it exactly right. That's exactly right. Yet word or to say something like you and I will. You must have unrepentant sin something similar that's a good one that I've heard from horror stories about individuals been told by folks who think that they kind of got some answer or latitude, there's a strain of thinking that says you must be a faith issue with Uriah and it's totally understandable why why does happen you can see what it in a moment of deep difficulty and of and of disclosure not really having the emotional of your spiritual ability in the moment, right to just say or not say right thing yet I was gonna say I'm so sorry and I when I was in SL you know if I'm the person receiving that news and I feel so awkward.

I don't know what to say. You would say one of things is don't say anything. You don't need to give an answer or response is to be there too with your daughter-in-law when they were going through infertility and miscarriages. I'm I know you said I'm so sorry. Beyond that, how did you try to to interact with her and minister to her and help her. I think one of the things that Dave and I did with me said how can we pray for you. How can we help you.

How can we be there for you. Just asking those questions, and honesty. There is such a helpless feeling when you're on the outside and there's an awkwardness to live.

Knowing is this the right thing and I don't want to hurt you more and sell. I thought it was really sweet that they read like Austin Kendall even asked me to come in and just cook, clean, it's almost like date so they could grief and there not only to screening the present at their grieving of what may not happen. Their hopes and their dreams and so just to give them that space but also to be right there in case we could do anything and I think that prayer thing is a big deal because we were so consistent in seeking God and asking God and isn't this the Bible think of all the women in the Bible that could not conceive and then it was even more of a stigma in that era. It still is. Still, it's very very hard and very difficult meeting and seen circumstances where the marriage is a lost because of it because there's so much emotion there so much pain if you don't bring that together, it can really tear you apart that letter, point them in one very common experience for couples. I go through infertility is to see marital strain very quickly and blaming blaming is corrosive to any relationship, especially the marital bond and we want that one explain that somebody's responsible.

Where we can affix response ability and we have some sense of release, right some sort of catharsis, bizarre catharsis that come from blaming someone, but the marriage just implodes and then then both end up retreating themselves.

The communication channels. Breakdown can destroy the center/throw it out destroying unpack that a little bit why is this such a challenge for couples in their marital intimacy. I think couples deeply want to be heard by each other then earnest, truthful ways and with this particular subject, because it's a deeply felt personally and if if it happens that Satan, the clinician discovers that it's attributable one way or another that the net adds further problem because then we know what the problem is the source the problem and that becomes the subject if I'm the husband and my wife desperately wants to be a mom and I'm the one who's keeping that from happening. Yes, I mean, how is that how you build intimacy and oneness of the marriage when I'm the one keeping you from your dream. Yeah you you are the source that undercuts hopes you know what a source of hopelessness and that that's why communication as I can imagine this a bit in the book disclosing communication about what's happening as it's happening and then also letting friends that's really tough, but that advice is essential. How would you do that, how would someone go about letting someone in hopefully their friends who are real friends and who will be there as friends and those folks disappear when it's tough on the just conference call them what they are there not but those who are there's the willingness and the risk of saying here's what happened to me and has happened to us and I I'm really hurt and I don't know what to say to him and what to do at church.

I don't feel like going out. I'm angry at God and and what what a friend will do it with this thing that the water for a real friend will do as they will mourn with you and the grieve with you and will say that this is terrible and and maybe everything is not in a quote unquote be all right, but we can rest in the fact of God's love in Christ, and we can rest the fact that he's given us one another in community is in bonds of church, then we can persevere and then the next day or the next week.

The increase letting in, but that trust the initial trust.

There is really important. You know, some that hit me monitoring the book was in the back when you you interview your brother with these great questions you're walking through it's it's really helpful for the reader because like how I respond and you ask all the questions that need to be asked and so you realize oldest story that's in the book. This fictional couple is a real couple. And it's really personal to you because it's your brother and one of the things that I found very profound was, you know, you discover in these questions, they actually did get pregnant and have a stillbirth and so it's horrific because now hope finally and then they get all the way to the and it's you just so, and again I mean you live through it before right before I read you what I want to read telling what that was like that was particular with Gary.

Gary was stillborn and best way in utero, and that Patrick and Jennifer made a decision. The hard decision to name Gary and to have a certain memorial for him and they still talk about so I know when his birthday was unit went when it happened. There was nothing to do but grieving to cry together and I wasn't there in my way. I think at that time we were living elsewhere.

It was way but that was deeply, deeply painful and there's just no other thing to say about in terms of just as a family are grief for that loss in Petra and Jennifer were really heroic and faithful throughout that process and look out of them you write this, but when I was reading it. Last night I read out loud to Anna, Mike, you got a here this response where Patrick says I couldn't answer the phone gives you just a glimpse into the devastation I could not answer the phone. He said even says it sounds ridiculous but I could not answer the phone so these voicemails stack up right and then one of his best friends Keith. Let me read you what you wrote. It's just he said was a difficult thing for me unexpectedly was answering the phone. It sounds so simple and ridiculous now, but the enormity of the task in the weeks after the miscarriage was staggering voicemails piled up unanswered, though not altogether neglected. I can't express how comforting it was to receive the following sort of message from my brother or best friend Keith, a buddy, you didn't answer that's okay really I'm going to keep calling because I want you to know that I'm here and I love you but there's no pressure to answer the phone when the time is right for you ring me or answer, but not a moment sooner, I'll keep leaving you a message every few days because I would just want you to know are on my heart and in my mind and in my prayers.

I love you, pal pain, such a beautiful picture of Brad's what you do. That's a pretty perfect response to this view as as you were talking about the kinds of relationships to the trusted relationships that are necessary to walk someone through this week we have a phrase we use our church that we borrowed from Paul David Tripp who said Christian community needs to be people who have grace based Christ centered intentionally intrusive redemptive relationships.

I love that because it starts with grace. Some have grace for you.

You have grace for me were not gonna be each other's judge organ of or give grace to one another or to be Christ focused working to be intentionally in each other's lives and I will be asking you nosy questions and Juergen asked me nosy questions and and we we have that privilege with one another because we know that the reason for that is redemption. We have these relationships because were both longing for the. The redemptive work of Jesus in our lives when you know that's the basis of a relationship. Now you can be honest and vulnerable and transparent. Knowing this person is going to be grace were both focused on Christ. Their goal is redemption. That's my goal. So yeah I'll tell you what's going on with me.

You can tell me what's going on with you and we can walk this path together and I think important person not to miss in this is Jesus in a relationship with God because he's always there and we can be hand, we can be upset we can be disappointed we can be angry and you and I think to go to him and to vent that to be able to express that to be able to express our disappointment and our anger. He is all about knowing our hearts and our confession of truth think that we can't bypass that importance of his peace that surpasses all understanding, and that guards our hearts and our minds in Christ Jesus, that for me is bribed on so many times when I think grieving and upset and mad and he miraculously comes in and here's me and here's my complete and just like David in the Psalms by the end I can say that I still trust you and that's important point because yes you can go there we should. The Psalms give us direction on how to do that in our pain and are suffering.

To be honest with God about that. To be honest with others. We just can't dwell there forever.

We just can't say this is where I'm living now this almost didn't he found his way back to God and back to some sense of peace.

Now, he might. The next day.

Be back in the ditch again.

He might do next.

Our right. But he's not. He's not saying this is my new address. He's saying this is where I am but I gotta get back to where God wants me to be in it and the interesting thing in your book is that's where you really go where is God in the middle of this. What's got up to winning.

Talk about that yet. So that's that's what we got a continuous conversation we we will point people to your book. It's called walking through infertility.

A great guide for folks who are going through this themselves. For those who want to compassionately come alongside family members, friends, people in your church, walk the path with them. We get copies of the book in our family life today resource Center. You can go online to order your copy again. The title is walking through infertility, biblical, theological and moral counsel for those who are struggling by Matthew R bow order your copy from us online@familylifetoday.com or call to order at one 803 586-329-1800 F as in family L as in life, I'm in the word today. I sometimes wish those of you who are regular listeners and those of you who support the ministry family life to. I wish you could see the prayer requests that come from listeners, we regularly invite our friends and supporters to contact us if we can be praying for them and issues like we've talked about today. Infertility of a variety of marriage and family issues. Word substance abuse or domestic violence or turbulent times with teenagers, we are hearing from people who are letting us know about the ongoing challenges they're facing. Day in and day out in their marriages and in their families. Our mission at family life is to provide help and hope for people who are seeking to follow the warden and to have the kind of marriage and family that honors and glorifies God.

That's our mission to effectively develop godly marriages and families. I just want to say thank you to those of you who support this ministry on behalf of the hundreds and thousands of people have joined us today to listen. Thank you for making this program possible for them for us. We are so grateful for your partnership with this ministry.

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Keith Lynch along with our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our hosts Dave and Ann Wilson and Bob Levine will see you back next time for another edition of family life today.

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