Carolina Journal Radio No. 704: Updated teacher turnover report sheds light on who’s leaving N.C. schools

From Cherokee to Currituck from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio live Ashoka during the next hour Donna Martinez that I will explore some major issues affecting our state teachers leaving North Carolina classrooms are less effective than those who stay. That's one of the pieces of good news from a new report on teacher turnover will are more details conservatives a child of the economic benefits of tax reform in North Carolina now do academic research backs up their claims.

Colleges can pursue truth or they can pursue social justice. They can't pursue both the Lord why a recent lecturer at Duke University made that statement. Plus will explore why US Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas hasn't enjoyed the accolades one might expect, as he marks his silver anniversary on the nation's highest court. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline like in any industry.

Teachers come and go from there. North Carolina teaching jobs.

Some even leave the profession entirely. A draft report that has been submitted to the state Board of Education looks at the data about the teaching profession in North Carolina and are Dr. Terry stoops is here to tell us what is in that draft report he is the director of research and education studies for the John Locke foundation Terry welcome back.

Thank you.

The narrative that we have heard for months and months now is that teachers are leaving our state by the thousands.

Are they really know not really. And it's interesting that were hearing this narrative because I went and looked what was talked about when the teacher turnover report will be released under Democratic administrations is really interesting that this kind of alarm wasn't raised when the Democrats were in charge and said it was a lot of talk about will do better next year will have program X or Y in place to make sure teachers stay since Republicans have taken over and and government. Cory has taken over the governor's mansion. The narrative has been that Republican policies are pushing teachers away and it's just not true. So what do we know about the profession in this draft report that certainly there are some teachers who are leaving the state of North Carolina. What we know about. Overall, teachers are leaving for personal reasons this idea that teachers are looking at statewide policies, or various other things that are going on in the education policy realm is real myth.

Some of their leaving because the word suited for the classroom but had a spouse that moved to another states they retired in a very few teachers are making this decision to leave North Carolina to teach in another state.

In fact, when you look at the overall teaching workforce less than 1% of our teacher workforce decides to go teacher and another states and and that's the one thing that we hear a lot about, especially in the media is that were pushing teachers to other states that pay more in some cases, yes, in some cases, no, but I find that there really isn't a lot we can do in most cases to keep teachers here that would leave for another state. It sounds as if teachers are just like the rest of us who are teachers that there are personal reasons that you might move out of state, or personal reasons that you might not like the work environment and in some cases may be some of those really really politically active folks are indeed leaving because they don't like the policies under the Republicans but it just doesn't sound like it's some major issue that North Carolina should be concerned about its nods are attrition rate. That is the teachers that leave the classroom is around 9% and that's comparable to a lot of private sector industries is comparable to the nonprofit sector and actually it's pretty common prayer of a common percentage amongst other states, and what we find that you know the fact that 9% is leaving can be a good thing. And the way we know that it's a good thing, especially in this report because they look to the effectiveness of teachers that left the classroom and that's a key addition that has been made because of the North Carolina Gen. assembly and Gov. McQuarrie deciding that the teacher turnover report that we've had in the past was misleading and didn't have a whole lot of information, they pass legislation that would ensure that we looked at the effectiveness of teachers are leaving the classroom what'd we find well we found exactly what I suspected, and have been talking about for years is that teachers that leave North Carolina classrooms are less effective than those who stay. That's an absolutely critical finding and let me just reiterate that the only reason why we know that is because the general assembly.

Gov. McQuarrie decided that we needed a better teacher turnover report and so they ordered the North Carolina Department of Public instruction to look at the effectiveness of teachers that are leaving, they found that there less effective and to be honest I want less effective teachers to leave our classroom. If our goal is to give a quality education to every child that means we should have an effective teacher in every classroom, and are less effective teachers under what the mayor anywhere near our classroom and so if there are leaving for other states or their leaving for other industries. Other professions that's fine by me. When you say effective and that those leaving are less effective.

How do we define effectiveness. They define effectiveness as growth, so are the teachers that are staying and leaving providing one years worth of academic growth for the students is not based on necessarily just straight up test scores are proficiency rates are the students that are taking classes with these teachers growing as much as they should. And we find the teachers that are leaving are not growing as much as those who have classes with those who are staying, and this is one of the advantages of looking at growth is that we can attribute the performance of students. When we look at growth to the teacher because were only talking about a one-year timeframe and were not talking about what's happened in the past and everything that a kid is bringing with them to the classroom. Are we seeing any trends in the data of the folks who are leaving the North Carolina classroom. Are they young teachers are they people who've been in the system 20 or 30 years. What we know about him other than their effectiveness being lower than those who are staying well. We find that in the first five years is really the. Where we have the highest turnover rate were the most individuals leave the classroom and that that's understandable.

People go in there thinking that they want to teach. They find out the realities of teacher know what they expected and so they leave so we expect attrition in the first five years but here's the important part to note is that the Republican Gen. assembly.

Gov. McQuarrie recognized that our highest attrition was in the first five years and so what they did was they decided to focus pay increases on that first five years to the point where no teacher starting in the profession will make less than $35,000 a year and most teachers actually make more than that.

When you add a local supplement they saw that the problem is in the first five years in the address that by increasing pay to ensure that those good teachers that are having a difficult time in the first five years stay in the classroom and that their financial situation is not dire that instead, they're giving a good basis from which to start and a good incentive to stay in the classroom. Terry, you've been a teacher yourself when you first went into the classroom. What is it that you found that maybe you didn't expect because you're saying that some of these early year teachers. It's not what they thought it was gonna be what's different. It's exhausting for one, I think most don't realize just how exhausting it is to to teach for five classes day and hundred and 30 students, but you know the other part about this is that a much of what a teacher does not only communicate content but they have to make sure that the classroom is an orderly one and so classroom management is a critical part of a teacher's job isn't necessarily something that a teacher that comes out of the teacher education program would have a lot of experience or a lot of background in learning ways to make sure that the classroom is kept orderly so that you can communicate the content that's required how you better prepare someone to be an effective teacher. Why think getting them in the classroom is absolutely critical. Ensuring that we have a teacher education program that gets teacher candidates into the classroom, whether it be for some sort of internship or student teaching that would allow them to practice those things they learn in the classroom. I think it's absolutely critical that we take a better approach to training them with practical means rather than theoretical means in the classroom giving them that practical experience does that mean we need some changes, perhaps to the curriculum in our teacher education schools on our campuses. Absolutely we've needed that for several decades. It's probably the hardest thing to changes is our teacher education programs and I think this is going to be something that the next Gen. assembly of the governor is deftly going to look at in making those changes that are necessary to ensure every child has a quality classroom. We been talking with Dr. Terry stoops.

He is the director of research and education studies for the John Locke foundation we been talking about this. Teacher turnover report you can read Terry's analysis of the report at Carolina. Journal.com and John Locke.org.

Thank you. Say with this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment, North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina. Journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in C and at Carolina journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else. Thanks to the experts at the John Locke foundation and thanks to the first-class investigative reporting of Carolina journal.

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Have you covered with up to the second information like us on Facebook the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in C and at Carolina journal. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko guy North Carolina has seen a number of education reforms in recent years. No more On the number of public charter schools new scholarships for low income and special needs students, but that doesn't mean the work is over. Our next guest recently address the John Locke foundation's Shaftesbury society on the theme the future of education reform in North Carolina.

Lisa Snell is director of education for the reason foundation. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you for having me, North Carolina really has seen quite a few education reforms in recent years is someone who monitors education and how it stands across the country is North Carolina a pretty good example in recent years, absolutely.

Especially this last legislative short session in the country. There's about 60 private school choice programs where public dollars can follow kids to the private school of their parents twice in North Carolina has two of those programs.

One, as you mentioned for low income students and one for special needs students and heal up until now, there was a huge demand with about 22,000 kids on a waiting list for the opportunity scholarship for the low performing schools and so the last session they just improved a huge increase over the next 10 years in the number of students so that every year that program could grow into. That's good news and yet the Milton Friedman foundation just released a big study on school vouchers called the win-win solution that looked at private school choice and they looked at over hundred studies but 30 of them were like gold standard with random assignment now and they found that all of the studies both in terms of performance for the public schools and the students in the private school choice found no negative effects and they also found that nationwide were saving $1.7 billion in taxpayer money by using private school vouchers for some kids, so North Carolina's and then later we talk about the achievement school district. I think that's important to say. That's another thing that we saw that was due during the session that you just reference was the creationist achievement school district for five of the lowest performing elementary schools in North Carolina as is someone who follows these issues across country.

What sort of promised is that right so for North Carolina. I think that's a modest start for low performing schools. But New Orleans is probably the best example that sort of close by and they in that city.

There is 100%. Schools that are charter schools that are managed by nonprofit private organizations and they used and they caused the recovery school District that basically exactly the same monolith achievement school district low performing schools were placed in state care, and then they used outside organizations basically to manage those care and that's been going on since 2005 after Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans is the fastest improving urban city in the country and across a wide range of indicators whether it's graduation rates or performance for all subgroups like African-American and special education students.

They'd seen tremendous growth so their ACT scores have gone from like the 20th percentile to the 50th percentile in a small number of years. There's just a huge study that found like a 4% effect size for achievement for these reforms and that's much bigger than like universal preschool or small class size or other popular reforms that have much smaller improvements for student achievement.

So, on the whole, you know, it's a positive direction. Also Memphis Tennessee has had some good results with SOI me. I think it's always good to take lower performing schools and mix it up a little bit and let some new blood command and think of innovative ideas for kids were chatting with Lisa Snell who was director of education at the reason foundation. So after patting lawmakers on the back for what I did during this most recently concluded session. What are some of the things that that they'll be looking at in the future.

I think there's two big things that could be helpful to North Carolina and the first is just thinking about how school finance has done in the state over all because North Carolina is one of the very few states that actually gives school districts or local education agencies positions and programs instead of actually money for kids and letting them decide at the local level and so just thinking about how money is distributed, and how it's attached to where kids actually enroll. I think will be a big challenge for the state of North Carolina and they are completely out of sync with every other state in terms of how their funding is distributing and for school choice moving forward. Having money attached kids is a big school choice enabler. If your funding formula is right in the second thing that helps wrap up with his education savings accounts which is taking hold nationwide and that's the idea of giving parents a bank account or debit card with their people.

Per-pupil funding attached and letting them know they could use a tutor or private school they could use online classes from MIT, they could have you now an occupational therapist. Whatever their child needed and then they if they have an incentive to say they can roll that money over that's left toward future years of education, or toward the kids college savings account in Nevada has a statewide program that every kid is eligible for that could be the first universal choice program where the parents truly manage all the resources of their child's education. You mention this funding issue for those who don't follow this very closely. Why is the way North Carolina funds the school districts. Why does that cause a challenge for leading to reform because it's very difficult to allocate so if you wanted to move to a more choice based system, or have more open enrollment.

It's very hard to do that if you give districts or schools positions or teachers or program funding instead of student funding that also increases in equity in states like North Carolina because then the money tends to follow the employees instead of the children said then you have schools or districts where it's more desirable to work or you might not have as much challenges and this is an intentional.

It's just an unintended consequence that money then flows to the schools with the most experienced staff the schools with the most savvy program officers that can get new programming and then the schools with new teachers are the most disadvantaged students or the least desirable in some ways places to work. End up with fewer resources and sell it just tends to be a very centralized way that the state actually tells each school. What teachers they should have, what programs they should have, instead of giving them the money based on the students that enroll which is how charter schools and voucher programs in the state of North Carolina work and then letting the local school define decide on what is the priority for their school and the principal to have more autonomy to manage that those resources in the time we have remaining. You mentioned two potential forms one would just talk about with the funding and also the education savings accounts are ESA's help tough with those be to put I mean really, I think education savings accounts is where were all going because in the future. The reality is is that everything is becoming more personalized and so our traditional model of the factory model of schools with one teacher and 30 students. I just can't imagine 25 years from now that were still good to be doing education outlay because technology allows us to personalize and so he may have kids taking half a day at a community college and half their day at the local high school.

Or, you know, being in formal education for two hours and then using personalize computers and see you really need to manage the resources based on the students to move into the next level of personalized education in America which is where everything is going even if there's resistance at this point we know one person is going to be watching this entire process very closely is Lisa Snell. She is director of education for the reason foundation. Thanks much for joining us think you will have more on Carolina journal radio in just a moment at the John Locke foundation where leading the effort to clean up the mess left behind by big government liberals for decades. The powerful left in our state had piled on rule after rule, regulation after regulation never really caring about the people whose lives are caught in the nightmare of complying. In other words, you their handiwork had made it tougher to get a job even increase the legal risk of operating a business. We say enough is enough that it's just not fair to you. That's why reform minded lawmakers have turned to the Locke foundation for answers and they acted to lighten your burden were proud that our intellectual firepower has improved lives.

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You'll also support freedom. Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko got North Carolina has cut tax rates and adjusted unemployment benefits. In recent years. The goal, boosting the state's economy help will has worked High Point University economist Stephanie Crofton tackle that question. She co-authored a recent report for the civil toss Institute impacted North Carolina's recent policy changes, we measure relationships between key economic policies. He measures of economic performance across the 50 states and the District of Columbia.

During 2000 2015. Our analysis shows that state lower sales taxes, income taxes lower and shorter unemployment insurance benefits experience higher economic growth employ employment growth and wage growth and lower unemployment rates.

What does that mean for North Carolina prostate findings North Carolina.

We include the recent policy changes in our stay already have the following effects, reducing sales taxes, increase employment by 11,000 jobs state GDP by $1.4 billion in wages 800 million between 2011 and 2015 reforming income taxes in 2013 increase employment by 8800 jobs state GDP by $800 million in wages by 320 million between 2013 and 2015, reducing maximum unemployment insurance benefit increase employment by 35,000 jobs state GDP by 6.3 billion in wages by $1.26 billion between 2012 and 2015, and further reduce the unemployment rate by 26 percentage point in 2013 reducing the maximum number of weeks of regular unemployment insurance benefits increase employment by 88,000 jobs and reduce the unemployment rate by one percentage point between 2012 and 2000 15/10 year. We project our study that North Carolina's recent policy changes even larger effect job and income growth continue to climb higher than they would have without reforms. What's the conclusion in our study we confirmed the long-standing binding and economic theory, higher taxes and higher and longer unemployment insurance benefit detract from economic growth, employment growth and wage growth undoing policy changes of recent years would harm both North Carolina's ongoing recovery and North Carolinians long-term economic and employment prospects.

That's High Point University economist Stephanie Crofton she's detailing her recent report on the economic benefits of North Carolina's recent tax and unemployment for drip with four Carolina journal radio moment.

If you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups all across the state. All in one place North Carolina conservative.com one-stop shopping for North Carolina St. movement had North Carolina conservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analyst plus opinion pieces and reports on higher education. All of that from the Pope Center for higher education policy commentary and polling data from the civil toss Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all of that, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com. Log on today. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko got for centuries, universities have focused on pursuing truth, but Jonathan Hite, a philosopher and professor at the New York University business school says the situation is change of the past couple of decades, Hite recently spoke at Duke University. He said the pursuit of social justice has changed universities in recent years the extent that this was broadening what we study broadening the people studying broadening the canon that undergrads read the books that they read. This is all to the gripe. I'm very happy about those changes but I think this set in motion in the 90s a set of changes that are resonating today and that can help explain what happened last fall all around the country and the very rapid transformation is occurring this year and last year Hite says now truth and social justice stand as competing goals in higher education. No university can pursue both individuals can in their own lives, but the University needs to have a central mission and has to be either truth or social justice account. It can't be both. And some would argue that we need a schism. We need our universities to clearly declare which way you going go either way it's free country. You gotta go one way the other you have to be explicit about it. Advertise that and students can choose which kind University to go to its case included a focus on how social justice distorts scientific pursuit of truth is a really really deep problem in the social sciences, which is that every one of us. Everyone in every social science department knows the correlation does not imply causation. We know this so deeply that and we never let each other get away with it. If you're at a cocktail party and somebody is not a social scientist says something you know what we can't stop or something well but correlation doesn't plug in for dreaming, and some in my dreams I I correct in my dreams and we all know this, so here's a graph so autism is autism is been going up since the 90s so has organic food sales. When you think you think that autism is caused by organic food or do you think that it's autistic people by organic food and that's why they go up, which is if your social son is it probably neither. That's just a correlation of a lot of ways to explain my just found from googling more bucks for your bank. People have more sex. Make the most money. So what you think. Do you think that if you're currently in a relationship and you have more sex, your income will go up. You think that's the way it works. Of course, not as 1/3 variable, so a social scientist would instantly say what's the third variable third variable is extroversion I know is to experience people have that trait at more sex and make more money. Okay, third we know this. We all know this but suddenly present people with a disparity and they all say oh my God causation. The fact that that person is a woman is why she wasn't hired. All we have is a correlation between gender and outcomes, but we impute causation and we know the causation is discrimination could be individual or could be systemic discrimination. That's New York University professor Jonathan Hite speaking recently at Duke University. He will want to contrast the way a truth University at a social justice University would approach the same data, social justice, you they teach you that if a group is underrepresented.

It proves orally strongly suggests that there is systemic or structural discrimination against that that is what you learn at SJ. Now this is wrong. This is just flat out wrong.

There's no defense of questions. It is no defense. I'm sure someone will have a defense and but I believe this is wrong. Truth University we teach you that correlation does not imply causation. In fact, this is such an important lesson I want y'all to say it out loud with me right now what I want to visit 123.

Correlation does not imply causation. Thanks so please remember that� Two professors when they violate. I do not want to deny that there is racism, sex, and I do not want to deny the indignities that women, especially African Americans feel. I read the stories for my students. I'm not saying everything is fine. What I'm saying is to simply argue that disparity shows systemic anything is wrong. It's an invitation to look more closely, by all means look more closely.

We need social justice activists to commit himself to look more closely. That's great that's necessary and sometimes they find so what happens when discrimination claims are put to the test.

Hite looked at one case involving hiring of female professors in science related fields, openly the most powerful test is an expanded list mental manipulation and so one was done.

Will Williams and Cece at Cornell. They made up all kinds of resumes that showed equivalent levels of research success and productivity. They sent them out to faculty in stem fields and they look good in effect, who was it who was selected shortlisted for an interview and what you think happened yes there was bias which way you think it went. Everybody is on the left. Everybody is really concerned about getting women into science. Everybody is really concerned about gender inequality, racial inequality supports these professors would prefer to bring the woman trying since the 90s to equalize fix. Of course, if you apply your woman. Of course you have an advantage.

I'm not saying that's wrong that's I understand that that's fine. But to then say that the disparity is shows that the stem fields are systemically sexist gets it exactly backwards there systemically sexist. So the next time anyone, especially when you professors tells you that some disparity shows shows a violation social justice. What I want you to say is disparate outcomes do not imply disparate treatment. Why does social justice cause problems for those who want to pursue truth very hard to understand exactly what the definition of social justices, but I think the two parts to it, so social justice activists are very focused on disparate treatment of individuals and that is a subtype of justice that is good.

Everybody should agree that that is that is a thing to focus on if people treated differently because they are black or gay or female that is wrong. That is an outrage that should stop somebody should stop it but there's another part of social justice. Social justice as I experience it as I hear it I read about it is not mostly about disparate treatment is mostly about disparate outcomes and when social justice is focused on achieving equal outcomes for all groups, then it's no longer a subset of justice part of it is justice part of it is outside of justice outside of justice Hite offered an example to explain his point in 2014, the Obama administration Department of Education, office of civil rights noticed that punishment rates are very disparate by race. This is true, and so Civil Rights Act prohibits such discrimination and they tell school that they must illuminate the disparities they send one of your infamous dear colleague letter's warning schools better. Even the rates out or come after you as a Minneapolis Public schools administrative head of the public school comes up with a new plan.

This can make it much more difficult to spend. Children of color and of course the Buddha try to crack down the white and Asian kids because I gotta get those rates equal.

So what you think we know the black and Latino violation rate is higher, not just from the corresponding crime rates outside of school, but just the fact that boys raised without marriage boys raised with men slightly through the home have many more behavior problems so we know that the rates are different and if the goal is to equalize the rates of punishment.

Is that fair.

This is an abomination from the point of view of fairness for justice to do that and that's why I say that when social justice as I see it as we practice in this country when social justice demands equal treatment.

It is justice. It is right. It is good and when it demands equal outcomes without concern for inputs or differences.

It is on just the only way to achieve those equal outcomes is through injustice. That's why professor Jonathan Hite is calling for a schism in higher education. He wants universities to state clearly whether they want to pursue truth or social justice will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment at the John Locke foundation where leading the effort to clean up the mess left behind by big government liberals for decades.

The powerful left in our state had piled on rule after rule, regulation after regulation never really caring about the people whose lives are caught in the nightmare of complying. In other words, you their handiwork had made it tougher to get a job even increase the legal risk of operating a business. We say enough is enough that it's just not fair to you. That's why reform minded lawmakers have turned to the Locke foundation for answers and they've acted to lighten your burden were proud that our intellectual firepower has improved lives. You can count on the John Locke foundation to watch out for your interest. The special interests. We would be honored to have your help in this fight. John Locke.org and make a tax-deductible donation. Right now the John Locke foundation were fighting for you were fighting for freedom, welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez. He is the most quiet and reserved US Supreme Court justice who currently sits on the high court and that has given critics of Justice Clarence Thomas, one more thing to critique but our next guest says that the double standard applied to Thomas has recently been the focus of a national columnist here to discuss. It is the John Locke foundation's director of legal studies and attorney himself. John to say John, welcome back to the program starts right now I'm really starting to feel old because I actually remember the Justice Clarence Thomas, the confirmation hearings and that was 25 ago rebels right is the law school at what your memory of that those hearings will I was really distressed because I was so excited about Thomases domination. I read some of what is written in the past and I thought he was most attractive nominee in my lifetime anywhere very excited about, and the fact that he is African-American and he was considered to be a conservative, perhaps a constitutionalist that made him all the more unique and nominee at the time I drive a bit of even that much more attractive. I guess so. Why were those hearings so contentious well that was entirely because of this testimony by Anita Hill. She should emerge from nowhere with this yarn about how he had sexually harassed her when she was working for him earlier and she she she repeated verbatim. Some of the things that she claimed he had said to her, and although it seems tame. In retrospect, at the time it was just shocking because of the explicit sexual nature of some of these, over the years. Justice Thomas has developed a reputation of being very quiet. As I mentioned, and a few months ago.

He actually asked a question at oral argument and that that itself made news, but over the years he has been the subject of of criticism and critique and recently there's been writing by one particular columnist. He says this is just huge double standard tell us about that might catch your attention.

Well, it is a double standard.

Some I've written about myself of this. This lure Thomas is lazy or not doing his job, which are things explicitly said about him is just a complete lie is the hardest work justice on the court. No question about it.

He writes more dissents along the defense of anybody is actually quite prolific very huge work ethic and commitment to doing his job well. Why is it that a national columnist has taken to writing about Justice Clarence Thomas over the past few weeks while this gentleman remember just remind myself of who I believe he is writing for the Federalist writing some some columns about Justice Clarence Thomas, and that's really catch your attention John Breitbart Paul whether he's he's all I think he used a clerk for Thomas is he's been following his career for a long time and he's written about them in other contexts. But lately he's been pretty incensed and with good reason, in my opinion about a couple things that happened. The first was a column by a board endowed, she said, saving you what I would say much of how shocking it was to hear those those criticisms of Thomas when he was having his hearings in the Senate but she also implies or actually says that he was guilty him and that's just completely unreasonable to say that there's not a slightest bit of evidence that Hill was telling the truth all the other witnesses, and there were many, many of them came forward and said they never heard Justice Thomas is looking like that there were inconsistencies in her story.

There were inconsistencies in the lady that brought her to the side in the first place. So at the very least, it should be one of those things where we don't know what happened.

All the evidence suggested to help with line Clarence Thomas never said this was 25 years ago that she made those allegations and the story has that dog. Justice Thomas, Seth, and, in fact, now it's actually become a current story because of the opening of a brand-new historical Museum in Washington. Tell us about that was that's the new highly acclaimed Museum of African American history and culture it's meant to document document all the important events and people in the history of African-Americans in this country. But as Mark points out in a different column.

The only reference to Clarence Thomas in the entire museum is appears in the exhibit that's actually about Anita Hill so they give Anita Hill a lot of a lot of space in their exhibits but they only mention Clarence Thomas in a derogatory sense of being the person who harassed her and led to certain improvements in sexual harassment laws a result that's really astonishing considering his stature is background the fact that he's been on the court for 25 years that he's an conservative African-American why the world would he be essentially left out except for in that derogatory sense of this historical Museum. Well, the left has always hated me they would hate any justice who took such originalist. Some people's you a conservative view of the Constitution, but they hate him. Especially because he's black. They simply cannot tolerate the idea that a black man is towing the progressive line that they think Blackman auto. I know that Ted these two columns that you mentioned by this gentleman writing for the Federalist really catch your attention and focus to you on this, but I also know that as an attorney and legal expert yourself that you read these US Supreme Court decisions tell us what you make of Justice Thomas's writings is writing. I think it's about interest to them accordingly.

I love Justice Scalia, all of us all on on the right.

In the libertarian wing of political thinking. Love them but Clarence Thomas is most interested. He's he's the most strictly originalist and he's the most is the boldest figure. He's willing to challenge ideas that have been accepted for decades. What he likes to say when people criticize him for this is that while he respects the court's presidency respects the Constitution more and often vastly line Supreme Court justice vo-tech but he's the only one usually been able to go all the way with that you said that he challenges things. What kinds of of concepts or precedents does he challenge that some people might find really unusual. Well, actually there was this just happened very recently in the case from Texas having to do with restrictions on abortion.

What Clarence Thomas did their addition to criticizing the majority's opinion on technical grounds were to look at the underlying theory of that case and what the what the rest of the justices were doing as Supreme Court justices have done for decades is applied sort of hierarchy of standards that that means that, for instance commercial transactions are deserving of less scrutiny from the court that free speech abortion sort of falls in between there is what they call intermediate scrutiny, but Clarence Thomas says this whole system of tears of scrutiny does nothing in the Constitution about that. The question should be, does the citizen have a constitutional right. And if he does, was that constitutional right violated.

That's a very original.

Bold thing to do at this point in constitutional jurisprudence.

John and you mentioned that Justice Scalia passed away a few months ago.

So the next president will be nominating at least one new member perhaps two or three members of the US Supreme Court. What qualities would you look for where you nominating someone for the Supreme Court. Well, if I if I could be making the choice of three things I would want to see ever going to find somebody who believes in the rule of law that is to say we have laws that apply to everybody including people who are part of the government.

Secondly, the Constitution is a Supreme Court law of the land and that law applies to everybody.

And finally that they would believe that the laws have meaning and that meaning can be discovered based on the written language of the laws so we what we what a ritualism we want on textualism and we what respect for the rule of law we been talking to John to say he is the John Locke foundation's director of legal studies. That's all the time we have for Carolina journal radio this week on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez will come back again next week for another edition of Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the job.

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