Carolina Journal Radio No. 803: N.C. colleges make advances in protecting free speech

From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest town and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. This week's edition of Carolina Journal radio was brought to you by Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina working every day to transform the health system for North Carolinians.

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It's no secret our political world is polarized one Duke University ethics professor thinks we can fight the polarization through arguments learn how even before hurricane. Florence swept through North Carolina state lawmakers were talking about improving disaster relief, nuclear one idea that involves learning lessons from farmers of Wake Forest University expert places North Carolina's proposed state constitutional amendments in a national context.

How do we compare with other states, you learn that will delve into the history of state restrictions on medical facilities and major equipment. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline over the past few years we seen example after example of college campus protesters seeking to shut down the speech of those with whom they disagree things like that even happen here in North Carolina. A new report from the James J Martin Center for academic renewal along with the foundation for individual rights in education fire as it's known, analyzes the status of free speech on North Carolina campuses Jenna Robinson is president of the Martin Center.

She joins us now, it's been a while since we talked with you. Welcome back to the show. It's great to be had on this is not the first time that you have been involved in this type of report. This goes back seven or eight years. I believe right. We did our first report also with the foundation for individual rights in education in 2010. Looking at the majority of colleges and our universities. Rather, in North Carolina to see how they rated on free speech, and now were just revisiting that same question. What kind of progress has been made in the last eight years as we get into that give us a sense first of the urinalysis from the 2010 era.

How would you describe the eighth 2010 eight report it. It was very disappointing is how I would describe it. There were no greenlight schools in the state green light. Of course, meaning free of speech restrictions.

There were no schools at which students and faculty could expect real free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment and said I would have now is the most disappointing thing in 2010 but we also found us a lot of schools. A very significant number of schools where there were substantial free speech policies that regulated free speech that made it hard for students to even handout a Constitution or and you can about that is not looking real case for restrictions on where students could canvas just to get members for their student organizations so there were very, very real restrictions in 2010 and so overall I would say that the 2010 report was a wake-up call for us and I think for others in North Carolina about how bad it really was and I know in the ensuing years after that report was released.

Your organization talked a lot about how this was an issue in North Carolina and you did a lot of outreach to try to make sure that Chancellor's faculty members and students understood what was actually occurring on those campuses. So let's fast-forward to the new report we made any progress. Absolutely North Carolina is now the nation's leader in speak in protecting free speech on campus is a huge turnaround from 2010. We now have eight schools in North Carolina with green lights, which is wonderful. Seven of those eight schools are in our public university system.

The only private school on that list is Duke University and not so that is that is a huge improvement and a lot of schools have gone from red lights to yellow lights, which is the marginal improvement and I know that was some of these policies it it does get difficult to write them in such a way that you can get to that greenlight and so I know that there's there are schools right now that are still working on changing their policies to get to green like they do have that goal in mind so it's weird. A much Better Pl. in North Carolina were leading the nation, and I expect to see more progress in the future either one or two universities in the state that really are. Perhaps head and shoulders above others. I hate to do this because I went to NC State UNC Chapel Hill, then NC state is lagging behind but UNC Chapel Hill was the first state in the first university in our state to get a greenlight rating from fire. They were also the second school in North Carolina to adopt the Chicago principles and the Chicago principles our statement saying that they value free speech. They value open inquiry on campus so it's more than just removing the policies that restrict free speech is actually making a commitment to the value of free speech and why it's so important on campus and so UNC Chapel Hill really is.

I think the one to emulate on this issue generally talk about free speech on campuses and I mention protesters a few minutes ago people might have in their minds. I well it's just protesting and kids will be kids, etc. that's what the college experience is all about, but actually you look at all sorts of different policies that people may not even realize exist on a college campus. Let's talk a little bit more about that. For example, harassment policies, what is that all about right. So all the policies that it's action so fired is the legal work on this. I have to give them all the credit for doing the legal work and so they've they know which policies to look at.

So harassment policies obviously have a place on campus you should not be able to assault people to stalk people. All of those things are there legitimate reasons for having this kind of policies, but many of our universities have gone way too far to the point that they have harassment policies in place, where if anyone finds you know a joke slightly off color then that can be considered harassment. If someone overhears something that was not even directed at them that can be considered harassment and I think the biggest problem with it is that some of these policies make the standard for what constitutes harassment entirely subjective to students and faculty do not know what to expect and so that's one of the reasons that your harassment is on that list because it often leads into it's just conversation. It's just speech that universities were reclassified to consider harassment and so that's why you see something like that on the list and taking that issue one step further, there are policies in place that have to do with what's called hate speech result. What is hate speech so hate speech legally doesn't have a meeting all speech in the United States under our First Amendment is is treated in the same way with very very few restrictions and so hate speech. According to the people who who are proponents of using hate speech as it is a tool to connected to shut down speech on campus would say that it's something that is someone finds offensive normally directed at a protected class of people because of their gender because of the race because their country of origin but legally, as I said even really offensive, ugly speech is protected to others. Also, policies on campuses about where you can do certain things you mentioned a few minutes ago that the case where someone was passing out literally copies of the Constitution and was told that they were not allowed to do that right absolutely so a lot of universities have what are called free speech zone which means that most of the campus is not open to free speech and they have carved out a little special section where you are allowed to have free speech. One of the most egregious examples was that UNC Greensboro.

They have cleaned up their policy they don't do this anymore, but is still it's so such a good illustration that I like to still tell it there's zone for free speech was near a bus stop by the highway, so it was, it wasn't welcoming for students in the quad. It wasn't in the center of campus where students would actually be able to communicate with their peers and it was really this tiny little free speech. No ghetto almost where this this is where we put the people who want to speak their minds. It was terrible Janet. We made a lot of progress as you noted, but going forward them.

There are still a number of North Carolina campuses that are out red lights and yellow lights, not the.

The green lights that you want to see what is that the biggest area of concern for you, that you would hope to see some reforms going forward I would like to see our UNC system campuses.

The ones that have not cleaned up their policies. I'd like to see them take action first and they really are under the new law here in North Carolina supposed to do that and honestly I expect that they will over the next year.

I think we'll see more progress. We've been talking with Jenna Robinson she is the president of the Martin Center. Thank you so much. Created on same with this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment. This week's edition of Carolina journal radio was brought to you by Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina working every day to transform health system from both Carolinians more information available today.

We.com Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, friends, rivals, great American presidents. Their ideas still have great value today. You could hear those ideas. Monday, November 5. It's a special living history of it in Raleigh. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams come to life in a debate on the future of the United States of America. Taxes, trade, foreign threats, Jefferson and Adams dealt with them all though how shelter differences before a live audience.

You could join them. It's living history. Monday, November 5 at 7 PM at the North Carolina Museum of natural sciences in Raleigh. Tickets are $10, five dollars for students. Buy tickets online of John Locke.org that's John Locke with a V.org or call 1866 jail left info will Qu�bec Carolina journal radio.

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It's no secret that we live in a politically polarized society. Is there any way to help reduce polarization Duke ethics professor Walter Sinnott Armstrong think so.

He's written a book titled, think again. It contends the reason an argument can help us deal with our problems during a recent speech in Raleigh. Sinnott Armstrong first touched on other ideas for tackling our polarized world. What is the solution. Well there some solutions that don't work.

I am a child of the 60s. I love the Beatles but all you need is love you great okay so that's not a work of how to get there by love each other, told me how to bring that about. This is an ideal you know I'm spending all this time and Yoko Ono and John B thought that would do it but it didn't work so I could help.

It was for politics was get rid of gerrymandering to do that. What you think Justin would be enough because even the Senate is polarized is not as nothing to ensuring so and so I think is just is hard to see how your dose going to do it. Some people want to focus on doing policies. Nothing is great.

You want to focus in all the different levels at once avoid the other, avoid cable moves.

She'll write you do other people are going to do is knocking to make any difference right is not really a change in your document be infected by it, but you're still gonna be living in the same world. So what we need is practical steps that each of us as practical individuals can do to reduce this problem not solve it not get rid of it all but reduce our everyday laws. If those options don't work will Sinnott Armstrong points to a local example from durum history, CP, Olson and Atwater were literally no, he would bring a go when he met with her because he was worried. CP Ellis was the head of the local Ku Klux Klan and Atwater was the head of the local protest movement was funny for civil rights for African-Americans in Durham, especially housing blood. Some brilliant politician trying to so we all want you to cochair the committee that's going to integrate the German public schools and by the way, if you decline the other person shall be the sole chair of the committee so they were stalked out of the garage and pressured no one to help. So so you work together and that water was the first one who started to turn and show to look at you only get to know you tell me like you know so when you got against integrating the schools so will I think if we integrate the schools it's going to lower the quality and I want my kids to get a good education. She civil I want your kids to get a good education to and I want my kids to get a good education is five turns out they both just want to get their kids a good education. They had different views very different views about how to bring that about.

Once they recognize they have a common goal right and that they shared.

But that value of helping the kids be better in the next generation. Then they were able to work together and they succeeded in working together and were friends for the rest of their lives. What lesson does Sinnott Armstrong learn from this durum story I where it shows that even extreme polarization can be overcome if you do what what was the key there, but she was. She asked the question, not just what you think about integration. Why was the reason this can reveal the value behind what you're doing. Sinnott Armstrong says people should ask more questions and answer them even when they don't have a great answer.

A lot of the time the answer is I don't know, and we have to get used to admitting that there saying to the other person.

I don't know what you think and then listening to them. They don't know all of Dr. school to here called the Internet that I can look it up but which websites are we going to trust all which one do you recommend which one do I recommend let's check it out right and do some exploration noticed one thing we don't have enough time to do that right it's really problematic. One reason that I agree with you.

Most of these political issues know exactly what to think about them. I got some range of answers and I don't think we should have no immigrants in our country and I don't think we should just let everybody, but we're in the middle I don't know that's really complex and I don't know enough about the data do I have time to check out that issue.

No. So you have to do some exploration, but you can't do it on everything so you pick this little one journal work on and figure out what you believe on those that admit after people have to get used to admitting that they don't know that's the solution is another cultural change that ethics professor Walter Sinnott Armstrong of Duke University. He spoke recently at Raleigh about his book, think again. How to reason and argue. Sinnott Armstrong says the best questions will lead to answers in the form of arguments just about most important questions.

Also, your why you believe that what about help and how is that going to work all those kinds of questions. The answers artifact arguments what are arguments that most people misunderstand arguments they think you know mommy and daddy are arguing tonight will know they're fighting there, not arguing argue by throwing a pain that is not a premise and are also not Bates is also not theater on not just like showing off how smart I am.

That's not the point of argument either, but they're not debates.

My favorite point about the basis.

Suppose we have a debate or we disagree. Are you an argument you give an argument and I go, you're right. I'm unconvinced you're absolutely right.

One in the answer is anything exactly restarted. I want because I gained something I learned something we have to start thinking of arguments as minute means of communicating with each other and understand each other and each other's reasons, then will see that the winner of the argument someone is convex because they learn something that's a very different view of argument that I think is much more constructive.

Sinnott Armstrong offers his definition of argument was a connected series of statements intended to establish or I would say give a reason for a conclusion. So it's an intellectual process is not just yelling or automatically denying or anything like that arguments then present reasons under different kinds of reasons. I've said this before its reasons to believe the reasons why things happen. There are reasons to act. This is why you should do it there reasons to doubt which are not reasons to believe anything but to wonder what is true and to realize that you need to think more about and so did reasons come in many different times we need to understand is, is that these reasons serve a number of different purposes.

One is that you actually show respect for somebody when you asked him a question.

Why these days. I think if yes, why do you believe that less offensive. The man won't know, notice I never asked my dog for reasons only ask people for reasons when I think they're capable of giving reasons, I can learn something from them is a sign of respect to SQ for reasons and to give you reason I'll give my dog reasons either. I just pull the leash like come this way.

And so I don't do that with my wife.

Which is why we've been married for 42 years, or about you. That's why but anyway you show respect for each other. Lorene your reasons helps me understand you. I don't just understand what you believe but understand why you believe it unless a deeper kind of understanding which helps me respect to that's Duke ethics professor Walter Sinnott Armstrong is explaining why he believes reasoned argument can help address the problem of political polarization with North Carolina journal radio in a moment. Did you know you can now advance freedom and free markets just by shopping with Amazon it's true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shot using the Amazon smile program and designate asked the work foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop and Amazon donates money to ask the John Locke foundation.

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Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, friends, rivals, great American presidents.

Their ideas still have great value today.

You could hear those ideas.

Monday, November 5. It's a special living history event in Raleigh.

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams come to life in a debate on the future of the United States of America.

Taxes, trade, foreign threats, Jefferson and Adams dealt with them all though how shelter differences before a live audience. You could join them.

It's living history. Monday, November 5 at 7 PM at the North Carolina Museum of natural sciences in Raleigh. Tickets are $10, five dollars for students like tickets online@johnlocke.org that's John Locke with any.org or call 1866 jail left info if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina conservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James Dean Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com. Try it today. This week's edition of Carolina journal radio was brought to you by Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina working every day to transform the health system from North Carolinians. More information available at today. We.com will come back Carolina journal radio why Michiko coca state lawmakers are focusing on improving disaster relief linked to hurricane Matthew someone to see better planning for the next disaster that includes Republican representative Jimmy Dixon. One problem is hold ourselves and complacency.

Lab disaster occurs as the government's responsibility to get us out of the disaster. I think individual responsibility comes first. I think James Rob will choose well below my business is very important to make bad choices. I don't think I need to depend on the rest of the taxpayers to bail me out now, having said that, we understand that it doesn't always work that way we don't get this right if we don't make this an issue. Move and be sent to timeout Dixon suggests government planners could learn some lessons from North Carolina's farmers we have to get ready to plan a crop every year whether conditions are different, but we have a plan for how we prepare our feels that plan might change if it's too wet overage to drive. We know that these things are going to come. Sure, we can develop a plan of action that anything that occurs in here's our plan. We've already got it ready for the federal government.

This is what we going to do that that that step right there if we can at least incrementally begin to develop these kinds of steps and you know this, thanks for forever. And so my question is this what if anything is being done about this for step your horses action plan development.

What are you doing if anything, to develop an action plan that will be applicable to the next disaster. Dixon cautioned against changing government rules to help those who know how to game the system. He doesn't want to see more waste or misuse of funds.

I don't think any of us are looking to make Bruce lose money, easy for folks to get because we know that there people out there doing every one of these kinds of things have become expert in harvesting disaster money to supplement other things that were not talking about making it easier were talking about making it more efficient so that we can identify those who truly need it and be able to deliver the firm's of the more efficiently that's state representative Jimmy Dixon sharing his concerns about disaster relief and North Carolina will return with more Carolina journal radio with a moment commitment to truth and transparency in government.

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Over the years. Why our next guest offers an expert opinion, Dr. John died in this professor of politics and international affairs at Wake Forest University is also author of the book state constitutional politics governing by amendment and the American states walked back to the program going to be here so people who have been in North Carolina for a while probably remember that.

Oh yeah, every couple years or so. Seems like we do something good to consider amending the state constitution.

It is.com and across the country for North Carolina's 1971 Constitution has been amended three dozen times. So that's almost 4 decades. That's it's almost 1 year one amendment per year little under that that is relatively in the broad middle of the pack will come to the states, Virginia. Our neighbor there right about that one amendment average per year see one member per year averages. There are some states that are well above average Alabama on average six oxygen eight times a year. Louisiana, four times a year, then you got on the other end of the spectrum, Vermont, which amends its concert only once every four years. So the best way I put it is this broad broad variation among the states in this matter is in so many others in North Carolina as well. In the middle of the pack in terms of about average rate of course it should be said that that is well higher than the U.S. Constitution rate of amendment but all the states amend the Constitution more frequently. The U.S. Constitution among the states that do amend the Constitution fairly regularly.

What kinds of things typically get put into the document way of thinking about this is what are some of the members that we might see on this year held around the country.

How do these compare type amendments are.

You see a lot of them is dealing with whether legislatures can borrow money. A lot of states have written their constitutions limits on how money can be borrowed there. They're afraid of. If you just leave it to the legislature built built borrow too much money and that's what happened in the past, and so to say what you can only borrow so much money we only borrow money if you let the people approve the borrowing someone legislatures want to borrow more money than the cost shall out. Sometimes they put on the bellicosity from number six could you allow us to borrow in these kinds of cases. Could you allow us to do these conflicts that's actually been one of the more frequent North Carolina amendments and that's very common around the country. A lot of them is doing financing budgeting about three dozen states have state constitutional amendments requiring a balanced budget. North Carolina is one of those in 1977 N., amended us to customers like the budget must be balanced course, there's no federal balanced budget amendment terms of the Indiana this year's bidding to become the 37 state balanced budget memo to its state constitution is a lot more that could be said that a lot of these mems do with financing budgeting taxes and spending. That is the voice of Prof. John died of Wake Forest University, author of the book state constitutional politics governing by amendment in the American states. The amendment in North Carolina that's attracted the most attention during the course of this year has dealt with voter identification is that type of thing.

Other states and dealt with by limit as well for so it's important note what what would this account government accomplish if it were approved and what would that accomplish the main purpose of a voter ID amendment in the North Caucasus would insulate a state voter ID requirements form state court reversal people might recall back in 2016 the original note on voter ID law was subject to federal court challenge and state court challenges in the state court challenge was you can add another requirement of voting in the state constitution affects on the go primatologist you have to amend the state constitution to add that in. And so the purpose of a voter ID amendment would be to prevent a North, state Supreme Court from invalidating a voter dual. I emphasize that because it says nothing about what a federal court might do to a North County voter ID amendment, federal judges don't care at all about whether voter ID is in a statute or to constitutional member. Now how common is this turns out. Arkansas will also be voting on a very similar voter ID amendment this November. Surrey voted on a voter ID amendment. Just two years ago.

So if North Carolina and both those days it was approved and the idea in both those cases was state courts had struck down the state voter ID laws on state concert from ground that's the legislature came back and said let's resolve this to accomplish amendment was make it very clear the state constitution does not forbid a state from adopting notoriety. One of the things it's also cropped up that might surprise people is a constitutional amendment that would protect the right to hunt and fish.

This is not something that's unique to North Carolina is not at all in the last two decades, 20 states have amended their state constitutions to protect the right to hunt and fish that is a phrase in different ways. Sometimes these are policy grounds of hunting and fishing should be preserved, but sometimes those are phrased as in a constitutional right. Individuals have a right to hunt and fish with is really directed towards is the humane society groups and other conservation groups have proposed certain regulations and the ideas at this putting this in the state constitution would make it tougher for some of these regulations on on trapping or fishing to be adopted. If not, put that on its ballot this year will become 1/22 state to have a right to hunt and fish. Other amendments under consideration, North Connor of the country would be to tighten existing victims rights provisions another five states will be voting on victims rights amendments.

There's no victims rights member to be U.S. Constitution, but 35 states have said we want to protect this North Carolina Tory adopted a victims rights amendment back in 1996 but now North, other states are considering let's tighten that up and provide additional specific guarantees beyond what we've already done.

We talked about borrowing finances election related amendments, things to do with crime victims rights. Are there any amendments in recent memory dealing with things such as property rights. Yes, very much so first of all 49 states have in their state constitution explicit perfect protection against eminent domain takings. That's where government comes in and says your land would be very valuable for something else were to take your land will pay you money. What it's worth 49 states the 50 state is North Carolina which is did not have an explicit protection, courts have reached such protections to implication but North Connor stands alone and not having that, but other states have gone further responded to US report decision 2005 are people west of US reports. Could you actually protect us against eminent domain takings when somebody to build a shopping mall and then, take my lands wanting to build an airport or road but a shopping mall near spring course about five or decision.

Note the federal Constitution doesn't provide you the protection dozen states in the last decade or so, we want to provide that protection through her state constitutional amendment and they've done so North Carolina could consider adopting an amendment that kind and if if they did, so it would be well in keeping with other states from country has your research given you a sense of how seriously the people who get to vote on these take this amendment of the Constitution.

It me if there are lots of constitutional amendments to people to say this is another thing on voting for. They tend to take this very seriously. What we found is in some states, you can have a lot of amendments on the bow is not unusual in Texas or Louisiana to have nine or 10 concert from Evans on the bout in a given year, or California or Colorado and Arizona.

Other states are more might see one or two. What you find though is is that people don't have a broad knowledge of all nine or 10 of those but to pick up cues from newspapers from interest groups from from from think tanks that they trust and they look to them for cues once in a while you see a voter decision is Alex.

That's a curious decision for the most part you see people that seem to be making rational decisions and voting in their interest, and not clearly against their interest will certainly very interesting topic not only in North Carolina but across the country and one person who will follow as this state moves forward on constitutional amendments is Dr. John Dinan Prof. of politics and international affairs at Wake Forest University also author of the book state constitutional politics governing by amendment and the American states. Thanks much for joining the opportunity more on Carolina drill radio just this week's edition of Carolina general radio is brought to you by Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina working every day to transform the health system from North Carolinians. More information available at today. We.com Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, friends, rivals, great American presidents. Their ideas still have great value today. You could hear those ideas.

Monday, November 5. It's a special living history event in Raleigh. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams come to life in a debate on the future of the United States of America. Taxes, trade, foreign threats, Jefferson and Adams dealt with them all though how shelter differences before a live audience. You could join them.

It's living history. Monday, November 5 at 7 PM at the North Carolina Museum of natural sciences in Raleigh.

Tickets are $10, five dollars for students.

Buy tickets online@johnlock.org that's John Locke with any.org or call 1866 jail left info. Welcome back to Carolina general radio I'm Donna Martinez expanding access to doctors and hospitals at a lower cost.

Now that is the goal that most folks can agree on, regardless of ideology when it comes to reforming our healthcare system.

Our next guest says that a good first step toward meeting that goal is to take a very serious look at a North Carolina law that works against the expansion of options and against bringing down costs.

Jordan Roberts is the new healthcare policy analyst for the John lock foundation. He joins us now. Jordan walk Michelle nice to have you witnessed think you going to be here in a nutshell explained to us what were talking about here.

This law is technically called a certificate of need, but what is it do what you require.

That's right so certificate of need laws were put in place a couple decades ago in an attempt to lower healthcare costs by limiting the supply of healthcare services that are provided so what ends up happening is if you are physician that wants to provide a new service or a existing facility that wants to expand. You need to go to a state planning board and prove to them that there is a need to provide this service at levels higher than what is already been provided and submit an application and the state would look at their data to see if they project a similar need, and then they would either grant access, or deny access.

What ends up happening is you have government bureaucrats that are really deciding what who can enter into the healthcare market and not really have some adverse effects for a lot of consumerism and providers. What you found in your research at Jordan and it's really interesting because you been writing about this, and folks can read your blog in the locker room it@johnlocke.org, you found that time, North Carolina. I wasn't by far not the first state to do this and certainly this writing going on for decades and decades and decades tells about the history of con laws. So what I found was that the certificate in the Vols really came about in that as far back as the 1800s, and there were used to regulate businesses and industries, like the railroads, public utilities, things like this and they were implemented to try to have reduced wasteful duplication of services. Back then, and what people referred to as ruinous or bad competition. So to take the railroads. For example, what would happen is there were laws in place that would restrict the railroads from charging market rates to their customers and so an attempt to keep the railroad companies they were already in existence profitable the state would use certificate of need laws and attempt to insulate this current railroad providers from any type of competition.

So, from the earliest onset is an example of cronyism and so there was a lot of your progressive ideas during the 1800s.

At this time and so wasn't uncommon for the state legislatures to try to regulate business to this extent. Now when you fast-forward into the 1900s there North Carolina among a number of states that still have certificate of need laws in place, I and Jordan. When people listening to us might be thinking you know what it sounds like the motives of the people who support this kind of thing might be good there trying to quote protect people from high prices. It etc., but as you mentioned earlier there's really a lot of negative consequences that come with this that people may not realize this talk about some of those that you been writing about Kentucky about reducing access to healthcare is a con law do that. So by limiting the amount of competition that you can that a incumbent hospital provider can have it really just limits the number of choices that patients have to go and get care.

So we see is that states that have certificate and the laws they have much fewer rural healthcare rural hospitals and other healthcare substitutes like this and now these types of counties and the patients that are in states with certificate in the Vols have to travel much further to get the same types of procedures done that other similar citizens would have to travel in states without certificate of need laws and is also you know the thought that these this rate really raises costs so a lot of the procedures that can be done in hospitals that are protected by certificate of need laws from any type of competitors charge a lot more saying ACL surgery and so if you were to get this ACL surgery done in the state without a certificate of need law you might have a lot more options to get it out a lot lower cost facilities, so these laws really what they do is they protect incumbent providers by not allowing any competitors to come into the market in charge lower lower rates for your patient. That's a really important point because set a few minutes ago, when you describe them what the original intent of a con law is one of the things was sent to reduce the so-called oversupply but yet what really happens in the real world is.

She said there some people who may live in out in an outline County. They may have to drive miles upon miles to try to actually access the service. It seems like that because that's the reality of it that you would have state lawmakers who would say don't wait a second mate were off track here with this, right. So the intent is to bring down costs by limiting the supply. The thought is that if you reduce the amount of unused equipment or unused bags that would bring down overhead costs across the board. But when you limit the supply you really limit the competition and the options that consumers have and these incumbent providers can use this market power to really charge whatever rates they want answer really just dictate who can come in and compete with them to get access to the same patient population and talk about real-world impact not only on patients but time recently here at the John Locke foundation. We hosted a Forsyth County doctor who is in the process of trying to fight this certificate of need law as it relates to his practice and he's trying to be able to offer MRI services to his patients give us kind of the Reader's Digest version of what his issue is and how it's impacting his patients rights advocates referring to is Dr. Singh and he opened a an imaging center in Forsyth County and you was able to acquire most equipment to provide all the services he wants to accept an MRI machine in the state regulates MRI machine usage and Forsyth County hospitals out all the certificate needs for this so he applied to the state to say that he wanted to offer lower rates to patients in Forsyth County and the state said no there is no need for this, even though the patient's is Dr. Singh will tell you, there's plenty of them coming up to him saying that we can't afford the MRI and other imaging services that hospitals are charging and we need we need the services done so Dr. Singh went out try to provide this service in the state simply said no there's no need for this.

This is so curious that someone sitting in Raleigh and no disrespect meant to people who are doing their job as part of a state agency they're following the rules that are in place in the law that's in place, but it just seems really quizzical that they would think that they could actually assess that the so-called need when you got a doctor right there thank my patients need this service.

I want to offer it.

Why won't you let me do that right so you know it really is quite something to think about that. The state planning boards in Raleigh think that they know the needs of the patients at community level better and so I just think that's that's not the way that this type of regulation should go forward and what it should do. We been talking with Jordan Roberts. He is the healthcare policy analyst for the John lock foundation heater in a really fascinating piece about this law, we been discussing.

It's called the North Carolina certificate of need law Jordan so much appreciated. Thank you for having me.

That's all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez will join us again next week for another edition. Carolina journal radio this week's edition of Carolina journal writing is brought to you by Blue Cross and Blue Shield working every day to transform the health system. More information available today. We.com Carolina journal radio program of the job. To learn more about John Locke, including donations that support programs like Carolina send email to development.call 66 jail left info 166-553-4636 Carolina journal radio is the John lock foundation.

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