Carolina Journal Radio No. 822: New elections board considers 9th District congressional dispute

From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state, a state legislative commission recently jumped into the debate over paying college athletes galore why one former state Supreme Court justices turning to the North Carolina Constitution to address the topic social media is having a major negative impact on political discourse. That's the assessment from Jonah Goldberg hear what he had to say during a recent visit to Chapel Hill North Carolina's latest teacher turnover report offers some good news will get an expert's assessment handler while wake County judge decided not to leap into the controversy surrounding North Carolina's ninth Congressional District race.

Speaking of that knife district Donna Martinez. George is now with more on that subject. Here's the Carolina Journal headline this week, all eyes will be on a state board of elections hearing in Raleigh.

As the board takes out the investigation into the still unresolved question of who actually won Novembers race for the ninth District congressional seat in the United States House of Representatives Rick Anderson is editor-in-chief of Carolina Journal Carolina Journal has been following the story very closely. He joins us now with a preview of the hearings to come Rick welcome back to the show recap for us if you would election night in November 2018.

We did have what we thought was a winner in this hat this race for how seat right out.

We had from early returns about a 900 margin of victory for Mark Harris the Republican nominee. The seat was open because Harris defeated the incumbent representative Robert Pittenger of the Republican primary. So this is an open seat, going back to Washington. Harris won by about 900 votes over his Democratic opponent in McCready. There was also a libertarian race as well, but the two main candidates were McCready and Harris and after that was over race is over. McCready conceded Harris accepted victory, and we thought one of law, but reports are coming out of potential regularities from that district, including allegations of mishandled or destroyed or stolen absentee ballots coming, particularly from Bladen County to Cemex of Robinson County and numbers of absentees participation that one way off the charts disproportionately employed in Robson County compared to other counties not only the district was statewide so people got interested and that's when the state board of elections got involved Dan McCready Democrat actually rescinded his concession, Mark Harris, the Republican, he and the state Republican Party have repeatedly called for him to be certified as the winner, but none of that is happened. So for now the folks who live in the ninth Congressional District of North Carolina technically do not have representation in the U.S. House. Let's look at what this new board is going to look into what talk about the board itself in just a moment, but are they going to be taking testimony or is this open to the public or disclose this is an open session they are limiting seedings the actual hearings will take place in the State Bar building downtown Raleigh present a very large hearing room where they quite often hold the judicial hearing things like that and so the there is going to be limited sitting there could be a lot of interest in the wreck. Carolina will be there. That's right was really close circuit feed also available of this will be live streams well so this people will be able to see this to be able to sue the state wide. The they will take evidence there there right now is a portal of the state board of election site where documents will be filed and posted.

And right now already. There are all the documents of evidence available to review right now, I'd say one of elections website and they can look at this and see what's available is as other evidence is submitted for the board to consider that will also be posted online and so people can look at this and his witnesses will be called will be sworn will be taken testimony under a will be giving testimony under oath.

There will be law enforcement people testified to be is to be very thorough hearing to weigh the evidence and basically the question. The board has before it is should Mark Harris be certified or is there enough evidence presented to cast doubt on the reliability of the returns, not necessarily are there enough ballots in question that were that were somehow another invalidated and make a difference of 905 votes, but was there enough evidence to suggest that there may be some taint in the election that would justify call for a new election and that's what the board will decide know this, a five-member board for the five-member sectoral reader that three were Democrat were not not just 343 call for an election call for election to certified only takes three but there are three Democrats and two Republicans and so it will require bipartisan support to call for new election of the right do we know if the two major candidates are planning to be there to testify that he missed Mr. Harris, Rev. Harris and Mr. McCready. We don't know if Rev. Harris is going to be there because he's been suffering from a viral infection and has he is home now, but he was hospitalized for a while. He may not be well enough to attend the hearing identically will be there whether or not he will hear himself may be called to testify with it. We went witness list. Yes, we don't know. Rev. Harris may also be called to testify is always possible that he could be deposed in a separate location or that he could be questioned remotely under oath. If he's not able to travel from Charlotte to go to Raleigh to make sure I understand. So the two options that would come out of this set hearing which is Sam thought to last at least two or three days. That's the anticipation would be either Mark Harris is certified as the winner for they call for a new election, though that's that that those are the two that are the most likely know if he is not certified and they don't call for election.

They were were basically where we started from before the hearing, other than the fact that we do have evidence presented under oath.

We do have testimony under oath, which we don't have right now we have sworn affidavits for some of those affidavits of the cult of the questions their veracity. So what you're describing.

Rick, sounds like a traditional trial that one would see on Court TV, writing liquors, but there's no there's no burden of proof is set at a different standard in a criminal trial. For instance, or something like that is that preponderance of evidence as soon as the board determines that's that's correct. That's right. So what the board and the board would make some judgment calls or two but if you can't get for members to call for you election and you can't even if the candidate certified still has to go to the US House of Representatives to present himself to be seated and that's the big? Well, because if if this board certifies him is the U.S. House which is now under Democratic Party leadership would they be required to acknowledge him as the winner of the Republican seat.

Note they would not be in their net there never required to actually accept any candidate who presents himself before that they always have the option of denying that what this hearing may do is provide enough evidence for them to say well it looks like Harris water looks like there's enough in doubt for us to call for a new election, the house would really prefer the state to do this they would prefer not to get involved in state-level election, politics, but sometimes it's essential. If you can get four votes to call for you. Election or if you certify someone in the members.

The house are not convinced that the there's enough justification to see him or if the board says no one will certified if there's a total deadlock, then the house will get involved.

That point once a determination. Whatever it is it is made by this state board of elections could either candidate.

Whoever comes out on the so-called losing and then say hey, wait a second. I'm going to sue, there's a possibility for redress courts, but basically that's irrelevant because the point that board makes a decision, then the U.S. House essentially takes jurisdiction. At that point giving that that you could go to court and sue and say they didn't consider this piece of evidence that these Evans but it really doesn't matter because eventually the U.S. House is going to decide this if the U.S. House were not concerned about getting involved in state elections, which once give people incentives to challenge all sorts of things and hope that the house decides in their favor. If that weren't the case.

U.S. House probably would've taken jurisdiction over this long ago. They did so to recap your saying that time it would take four out of the five board members to agree on a new election for new election, but it would only take three of the five board members to certify reverent Harris is the winner. On election night.

He was ahead bias 900 votes are or so do we know have either have the candidates been preparing for a new election day. McCready is raising money is going to be a new election. I don't know if Mark Harris is doing so. Mark Harris went to Washington and did orientation acted very much like representative elect this state board of elections. Hearing is scheduled to begin on Monday say with this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina journal.com tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each day@carolinajournal.com you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public event set Carolina journal.tv and the voices of the newsmakers themselves. Carolina journal radio in print on the air and on the web. You can find the information you need@carolinajournal.com welcome back Carolina journal radio I Michiko got to college athletes get paychecks. It's a hot national topic, former North Carolina Supreme Court Justice Bob Orr says the debate over paying athletes serves as a distraction from more pressing concerns. He recently explained to state lawmakers. I am absolutely confident that the NCAA and certain member institutions within the system who don't want to see change in who don't want to share the goal that the golden goose is delivered. All want us to be talking about paying players want us to talk about paying players because basically that's kind of an unpopular position. Those of us in the reform movement if advocated they want us to become mired in the quagmire of of compensation models that fit men's sports against women sports major revenue sports versus Olympic sports benchwarmers versus All-American small schools versus big schools. All of the permutations of compensation models that will lead the discussion in circles provoke controversy in litigation and ultimately forestall any significant change. Once a state legislative commission to focus on another idea. As a result of the circumstances, I would submit to the commission. One fairly simple and straightforward reform that needs to be made and would accomplish substantial progress in this area and greater justice to the students that simple proposal is the stock punishing college athletes from benefiting financially from their skills and success in a particular sport. This basic concept can be founded on what I like is one of the truly important provisions in our own state Constitution, article 1, section 1 of the declaration of rights sets out certain inalienable rights, including the right to the enjoyment of the fruits of their own white this right which was adopted in 1868 by the people of this day was obviously grounded in the history of an enslaved people obligated to work for the benefit of others, but unable to benefit for themselves and enjoy the fruits of their own like this constitutional provision is being used over the years a broader context to protect individual citizens from government overreach in the regulatory sphere but the principle is directly applicable to the young men and women working for their respective schools in the big time business in college athletics or points to the rights of the students themselves. Shouldn't these athletes be able to enjoy the fruits or benefits of their own labor without being punished for receiving those benefits.

One can only imagine the free market value of cliffs and freshman quarterback Trevor Lawrence just this week led Clemson to the national championship in football. How much would his presence be worth on another college campus and how much with the free market system paying them to make that move would not only is that type of compensation forbidden and punishable by being forever banned from college sports. The more mundane types of benefits from a home to Anthony and treating them the dinner to opportunities to make a little extra money doing a heads for uncle Mose used car sales is forbidden and punishable the infamous NCAA impermissible benefits rule would immediately kick in and Lawrence or any other college athlete given such a monetary opportunity with and him self or herself and eligible to participate in college sports lose their scholarship and perhaps have to leave college if they came from a low well. Family former North Carolina Supreme Court Justice Bob Orr explains how athletes differ from others on college campuses in fact on every campus in the UNC system and across the country. Everyone from chancellors to the athletic directors to the coaches.

The research professors all the way to talented student musicians, actors, riders, programmers, whatever can benefit financially from the value of their specific talents except college athletes, college athletes can only receive those benefits specifically approved by the NCAA or says the NCAA rules are based on out of date.

Thinking about college sports.

All of these NCAA prohibitions and limitations are founded on antiquated totally hypocritical concept of the collegiate model the NCAA manual proclaims quote the commitment to amateurism member institutions shall conduct their athletic programs for students who choose to participate in intercollegiate athletics as part of their educational experience and in accordance with NCAA bylaws, thus maintaining a line of demarcation between student athletes participate in the collegiate model and athletes competing in the professional model. This reliance on the old British aristocracy concept of amateurism to keep students competing in college athletics completely under the control of their NCAA Masters is not only outmoded, totally hypocritical or contrasted amateur athletics with the type of big-time college sports we see today. Does anybody think they so nice amateur football game between Clemson and Alabama, or true amateur basketball game between the Tar Heels and the Wolfpack and to top off this monumental hypocrisy rule 2.9 and NCAA manual titled the principles of amateurism. The principal states.

Student athletes shall be amateurs in intercollegiate sport and their participation should be motivated primarily by education and by the physical, mental, and social benefits to be derived student participation in intercollegiate athletics is an application and I got a this is the part I love student athletes should be protected from exploitation by professional and commercial enterprise.

The hypocrisy of that concept is beyond belief or explain the hypocrisy you go or watch any major collegiate event and you will be inundated by the commercial exploitation of the young men and women uniformed up with all sorts of branding on their shoes, uniforms, water bottles all around the arena and in the media.

Everybody is making money off their talents, not the least of which is the NCAA's commercial windfall of around $1 billion a year simply for running the basketball tournament. Bob Orr says the students are the only ones not making money from big-time college sports.

Everybody financially benefits within this athletic marketplace except the students who are the workforce, the talent, stars put in 40 hour plus work weeks month in month out with their totally limited in their ability to benefit personally on the fruits of their own labor by an oppressive and unfair financial compensation system punishes the student for any benefit the NCAA does not permit.

I would submit to you that in order to seriously come up with a system that is fair and workable. The proverbial sword of Damocles cannot continue to be held over the heads of these young men and women who want to play a college sport when the punishment of ineligibility for receiving financial benefit is removed from the equation in college athletes in their representatives can be treated like everyone else in the system and solutions for compensation can be reached.

That's former North Carolina Supreme Court Justice Bob Orr making a recent presentation to the state legislative commission on the fair treatment of student-athletes will return with more Carolina journal radio in about if you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com. It's one-stop shopping.

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So now not only will you enjoy what you buy. You'll also support freedom. Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today by something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Locke foundation will Qu�bec Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca during the course of the fight over North Carolina's ninth district congressional election, Republican candidate Mark Harris asked the judge to declare him the winner. Judge Paul Ridgeway was skeptical. He asked whether Harris had any other remedy than going to court one remedy or simply waiting 10 days and petitioner newly constituted Board of elections in the ordinary course of things petitioning making exactly the same arguments to the board has the investigation in front of that has a complete record in front of it that has the authority to issue certification has the authority to make its position clear and to simply allow that board to make a final agency decision your clients right to appeal states rights to appeal whoever wishes to appeal would have better opportunity course of things.

Why are we looking at dramatic intervention by one branch of government to the functioning of another branch of government and in the new legislation. It does say that investigation shall continue shall continue uninterrupted in the hands of the new board Republican Mark Harris's attorneys responded to Ridgeway's concerns. The reason I think it's necessary for the court to get involved is for certainty, the court can enter mandamus and will will know what were going to be dealing with everything that would have under the new board, whenever that hearing can be set up what the parameters are to be that hearing, we just don't know.

Although they might be in existence as of the 31st don't know when that's going to get in place and at this point were couple months past the election don't have the presence of of the ninth district representative, so we think this provides certainty for this term of the election for this next two years, which I like submit, you will will not be as certain when were going back on the under this new statute. That argument didn't sway judge Ridgeway perhaps no less uncertain whatever court may choose to do in the appellate process of whether this is extremely unusual situation with no board in place and and asking this court to step in and exert extraordinary power to declare the victor in election that is a clearly a purview of other branches of government be highly unusual for this court step in and say we require certification in a contested race with an investigation pending we require certification.

That's an extraordinary step test court to wake County Judge Paul Ridgeway. He's explaining why he decided not to step into the fight over North Carolina's contested ninth district congressional election will return with more Carolina journal rate where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlot.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with that's listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation will Qu�bec Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca the loss of community has had a major negative impact on American society and on societies throughout the West. That's an argument Jonah Goldberg has been making the national review, Senior editor and American enterprise Institute scholar recently visited Chapel Hill among Goldberg's concerns the impact of social media on real relationships.

We retreat from real communities.

We don't fake ones like Facebook worry you. I think Facebook is essentially up in the machine where we curate our lives make it seem like were having a better time than we really are and the worst part about that is politically is we go on Facebook or when we retreat to Fox News or MSNBC or whatever website that tells us what we want to hear rather than what we need to hear we have all of our biases confirmed all of our worst instincts confirmed, and ratified, to the extent where we no longer can hear anybody who disagrees with us and not think their insulting us or that they're the enemy.

This loss of community is just one of the problems Goldberg describes in his most recent book it's called suicide of the West.

Why for very long time. The working title, but I still like a lot is the tribe of liberty because part of my argument was that mere reason isn't enough near you. Note economic efficiency isn't enough is just Chesterton likes to say the purely rational soldier will not fight the purely rational man will not marry you need higher principles, ideas, values, structures, permission structures to civilized people and one of the things that we need is a triable attachment to liberty. We don't get liberty from the Constitution. The Constitution is in many ways the end process of a bizarre cultural evolution takes place on the ground in England where a lot of the customs and habits of liberty emerge as organic artifacts of a lived experience and what the founding fathers did everything but what the founding fathers is they took these cultural norms as they consider themselves the longest time British citizens.

That's why they were met and they felt that there Inc. with the Calder ancient rights and liberties were being violated and so with that is they serve. Put these customs and norms in a centrifuge and purified and made them into abstract principles and then wrote them down. That was a great gift, but for whatever reason, the publisher of a problem. The tribe of liberty salespeople couldn't understand that they thought this was in so we have this long negotiation and wonders why didn't go with death of the West the end of the last of the decline of the West is that I don't believe in the phrase I think the phrase the right side of history is garbage as certain as Richard pipes like this as an Marxist twang. Nothing is inevitable.

That's the point when Reagan said were never more in one generation tyranny. It requires effort civilization requires effort and I Mitch I belittle anybody with mental health issues, but suicide is a choice. We are making a choice to go down a certain path and we can make a choice to get out of it. You worry about the collapse of the Western economic miracle why are you so concerned. One of my intellectual main influences for this book was an economic historian Deirdre McCloskey who argues that the miracle emerges, basically because of words.

The story that we tell ourselves about ourselves radically change. For the first time in the 17 late 1600s in profound ways. I called the Lockean revolution. This idea that our rights come from God, not government. We are citizens not subjects. The fruits of our labors belong to us.

Innovation is a good thing, which for most of human history was seen as very suspect to challenge the powers that be the status quo and then emerge through words and ideas in rhetoric and I don't think Deirdre has fully explained what a miracle comes from, but I think she's explained an indispensable part of it and it is true that if you take it is true that you can talk yourselves into the miracle you can talk yourselves out of it and that is what I think is happening in higher education in popular culture and our politics is that we are making arguments that are throwing the Constitution the principles that it represents the cultural heritage that we have with throwing it all away and this spat of tribalism and nationalism and identity politics, all of which run counter to this glorious idea that the individual is sovereign, that we are captains of ourselves and that the market is that it is not just good, it is the only antipoverty program that is ever worked in all of human history and were taking off and rented an that's in gratitude. And that is a suicidal choice.

If it's a choice to reject the values through principles that help propel Western prosperity that seems to leave the door open for us to make a different choice to embrace those values and principles. Again, that's right, that's right. Charles Krauthammer, my late friend here wonderful speech a few years ago called titled decline as a choice. We weathers the entitlement crisis or a host of other things we know, or at least enough people of good faith know what we have to do. It's just too damn hard and I don't mean to sound like Al Pacino and sons of the woman about knowing the right path and not taking it's too damn hard for the thing is, if we don't choose to go to correct things will just get worse and were not the answer to our kids or grandkids why we let things go down the sewer. The way we have an I'm ultimately an optimist, you know, Edmund Burke says examples the school of mankind, and he will learn that no other than what he means by that. Sometimes you have to show people. You can't just tell people.

Ed Koch was mayor of New York City for two terms, and we lost his third bid he was asked if he was ever going to run again and he said no. The people of New York fired me and now they must be punished and were to learn some lessons from the Obama years and from the Trump years and we have a choice to act on those lessons or compound the problems that led us that way.

One of the great things about liberal democratic capitalism is its capacity for self correction and I still think we have that. I also think that that the arguments that were seeing on these carnival stall shout shows of table news and talk radio and on the Internet actually doesn't reflect the majority of the American people. We go out in the real world the real country and you talk to real people, people have something sometimes profound differences with other people, but this is deeply, deeply decent country with a wellspring of of of good of good intentions and and and moral seriousness and what we lack is the ability to marshal political passion around those attributes, but I think just as this country produced a Lincoln when it needed. We may be able to produce the kind of leadership that is required is we really have no other choice that's Jonah Goldberg scholar at the American enterprise Institute senior editor at national review author, most recently of the book titled suicide of the West of the rebirth of tribalism, populism, nationalism and identity politics is destroying American democracy. He spoke recently in Chapel Hill literature with more Carolina drone radio with about a commitment to truth and transparency in government.

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The award-winning Carolina journal team I reporters make government accountable to you. Call 1866 JL FINF0 for your free subscription, welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez new data from state education officials shows that the percentage of teachers leaving North Carolina classrooms has actually declined for three years in a row and technically this is called the teacher attrition rate and it's a key piece of data in the ongoing discussion about where we go is a state when it comes to teachers to students and parents. Dr. Terry stoops's vice president for research. Also, the director of education studies for the John Locke foundation. He's been looking into the numbers and he joins me now Terry, welcome back. Thank you. First of all, give us a sense of what the data actually shows well the data for this year shows that around 80% of the teacher workforce of roughly 95,000 teachers in district schools left the profession. This doesn't include, as it has in years past number of teachers to go from one district school to another district school. These are just teachers that left the profession and the report details the reasons why the teachers reports they have left the profession. So, as in years past.

There's a number of options of teachers can choose from when they leave and they can tell researchers the reason why they laughed and then researchers have gone one step further in the reports last few years to look at the quality of those teachers how they perform other students performed on state tests where they were in their profession, etc. before we get into a discussion of what teachers are saying about the fact that there leaving three years in a row then we seen a decline. That's right so three years ago we were at around 9% of the attrition rate was around 9% now are getting closer to 8% with with some change.

So this is the third year in a row that we seen a decline. This is also in the midst of a string of teacher pay increases, so that might be a factor. Why were seeing a decline but no, this is a positive news.

You would think would be positive news for those who appreciate the fact that the teachers thing the classroom. Why are they saying there leaving wells in years past their saying that there leaving mostly for personal reasons or retirements of the story has largely been the same. Even even in years that we didn't quite calculate the rate in the same way as the teachers are saying listen, I've had a spouse move out of states. I've had various personal circumstances to deal with. That doesn't allow me to stay in the classroom or I just decided to retire.

These are predominantly the reasons why teachers are reporting self reporting why there leaving the profession. A lot of the same reasons that people leave jobs in a multitude of industries just situations change. That's right so you know, that sort of begs the question to what can the state do with their personal circumstances behind someone leaving obviously the state can step in and say no, your husband can't take that job by the state. Therefore, you have to stay in your teaching job. The reason that were talking about. This is at least in part, the fact that there has been a narrative over that the past several years. Among the least some advocates for public education in North Carolina and the narrative has been that the current leadership of the Gen. assembly doesn't respect teachers doesn't care about compensating teachers and that lots and lots of teachers are therefore leaving North Carolina, but the data really refutes that narrative it really does so we don't have a teacher turnover problem in North Carolina, but we have the perception of the teacher turnover problem and the perception is, is that things got so bad on the Republican leadership. The teachers can't wait to leave the profession for any number of other employment opportunities. That's is not the case.

There is no teacher turnover problem. North Carolina and these numbers play that out.

If you look at the reasons why teachers leave and you look at some of the ones that may indicate that they're not satisfied, such as choosing a different profession or leaving because I don't like teaching that would account for about 1% of the teacher workforce. In other words, of the 95,000 teachers that teach in our schools only about a thousand of those leave the profession because they're unhappy with it. That's an extremely small number of folks that are discontented with the profession and that discontentment may have nothing to do with the policies passed by the Gen. assembly.

It may have everything to do with a principal doesn't like them with kids that don't respect them, or a district that doesn't think that they're doing a very good job. So the idea that teachers are leaving the profession in droves because of policies passed by the Gen. assembly is not backed by the data and yet that's all we hear when we turn on the TV or open the newspaper is that things have gotten so bad for teachers that they can't wait to leave. In fact, over the past several years we have seen races in multiple years given to teachers and yet part of that narrative is that there is not a respect that is reflected in teacher pay. That's right. And honestly fire on the left, I would say look, the reason why the teacher attrition rate is getting so much better is because were paying teachers more, but they don't want to say that, for obvious reasons because they don't want to let everyone know that things are actually a lot better as far as compensation were not just talking about salary increases were talking about increases in benefit payments to teachers. So, on top of the average teacher salary were looking at another $17-$18,000 in benefits.

The cost of which keeps going up and the cost of which the Gen. assembly keeps pouring money into Terry, you mention something a few moments ago that I think is pretty fascinating.

Evidently, researchers have gone beyond just asking teachers why are you leaving actually are trying to look into the performance of teachers who are leaving versus those who are staying tell us more about that yes well and this is a real invent advancements in the teacher turnover report compared to previous years is that they start looking at the growth data.

In other words, are the students that have these teachers growing by at least one year's worth of growth. According to the various metrics that we have in the state to be able to measure student growth and what we find is the teachers that leave don't have the type of growth don't have the type of growth scores that teachers do that stay in the profession. In other words, the teachers that leave are less quality teachers than those who stay now this is good news right or at least it should be because we want the bad teachers to leave. We want the less capable teachers to leave the profession. We want better once the stay. This is the benefit of attrition is that we can make improvements in the teacher workforce.

When the good teacher. Stay in bed. Teachers leave and this report indicates that's exactly what's happening. Terry if there are teachers who are less qualified for whatever reason is there any thought of taking a look at how they are being trained to be classroom teachers and what's going on in in education schools, at least in some cases appears to not be adequately preparing people for the reality of being in charge of the group of kids we started having that conversation and then things in the UNC system sort of rent went awry. And so the discussion we started having about teacher education and specifically how teachers are trained to teach reading is something that was started just a year or two ago, but unfortunately with turnover with Margaret spellings, leaving in particular. This is the UNC says that you have the UNC system. Unfortunately, that's going to put a stop to the really legitimate line of inquiry about whether schools of education are training teachers properly.

Now the other side of this is that a great deal of our teacher workforce up to hat maybe as much as half of our teacher workforce are trained in other states. So we have to consider whether the teacher training that is occurring in other states is up to par to what we could provide North Carolina because we import such a large percentage of our teachers from states that have a surplus of teacher candidates we been talking with that Dr. Terry stoops Terry, thank you very much.

Thank you.

That's all the time we have for the show this week. Appreciate you listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez.

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