Carolina Journal Radio No. 856: Judge to hear challenge of N.C. certificate-of-need law

From chair to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I Michiko guy during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state.

If North Carolina policymakers want to proceed with legalizing dental therapy.

It might help to learn how another state has addressed the issue will get the Florida perspective. Some state lawmakers want to change rules linked to public school discipline in North Carolina you learn why their proposals generated debate of the statehouse floor under state law will help more small businesses offer health insurance through something called Association health plans will share details that will examine protesters concerns about Gov. Roy Cooper's energy plan. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline helping patients.

That of course is what every doctor strives to do but what does a doctor do when or if the state law prevents that while in North Carolina one Dr. a Winston-Salem surgeon actually is suing the state of North Carolina and now the John lock foundation has filed an amicus brief, a friend of the court brief in the case called Singh versus North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services is a is the director of legal studies for the lock foundation. He wrote this brief filed in early October in the wake County Superior Court. He's here to talk about what it all means John, welcome back to the program. Why is the John Locke foundation involved in a court case in North Carolina. What's at stake in this case is the law referred to as a certificate of new law under the law, hospitals and other healthcare providers for all kind for a wide range of services including in this case MRIs have to obtain a certificate of need from the state before they're allowed to provide those services. So a doctor since case can be in the choir and MRI machine without first obtaining a certificate of need the time he filed the complaint last year were no certificate of needs available, so he had no option of a period of MRI using his practice under any circumstance. He works out Forsyth County. He's a surgeon there and trying to serve his patients and damn he is actually been a guest here on Carolina Journal radio and in his case. He says I'm trying to help my patients and what I do is being a surgeon.

Sometimes multiple scans are necessary to diagnose and treat a patient also says he could do this at a lower cost. My point John is that this sounds like it makes common sense. Why would the state of North Carolina believe that state bureaucrats would decide rather than Dr. saying as to what his patients need. Well, it's complicated been part of it is simply that awful lot of people in government and people even out of government think the government knows best and things that things like healthcare will be provided better and more cheaply under some kind of centralized control. But there's more to it than that. It used to be in the 70s that couple federal programs were raising the cost of healthcare to the federal government.

We had a cost-plus reimbursement system that was in place for Medicare Medicaid.

That meant that the more services a doctor or hospital provided the more money they made and the more the state had to pay for it and then to deal with that in sort of a ham-fisted way. The federal government passed a law that actually required state to have certificate of new laws if they wanted to continue receiving funds to reimburse Medicare Medicaid patients. So at the time this current law was passed in 1978 there was a rationale and that was it. But what happened in the 80s was Congress for once actually realized it had made a mistake and changed both of those laws they stopped reimbursing on a cost-plus basis moved to fix the first preservice model and they also repeal the law that required states that have come off. At that point.

Some states, the sensible stays repeal their common laws and went back to letting doctors and hospitals provide the services that they thought their patients needed.

That didn't happen. North Carolina are lost on the books and still be enforced, stop a little bit more about what is in your friend of the court brief in this case, M. Dr. Singh contends in his lawsuit that the certificate of need law related to MRIs is unconstitutional. What do you write about that. Well, we say that he's right. It is unconstitutional in his brief, which was written for the record, I should say by the Institute for justice. They are provided pro bono legal services for date date, they charged the state with three counts of constitutional violations, it violates the due process clause violates the exclusive emoluments clause violates the antimonopoly clause in a violates equal protection clause of the North Carolina State Constitution. We agree with all three of those.

It does violate those provisions of the North Carolina Constitution that suggested and John that Dr. saying is likely to prevail in his case.

We certainly hope so. The problem we've got here in North Carolina and throughout the country is what's called tears of scrutiny doctor.

The courts have taken the position over the years and it's the law here is in many states that different kinds of rights get different levels of protection is not in the North Carolina Constitution says that on the U.S. Constitution, but that's what the court saying in this case. This is been treated in the past as an economic regulation and economic regulations get the lowest level scrutiny what's called rational basis scrutiny. What that means is if the court can find any possible rational basis for a law it will hold it in this case with certificate of need laws that's already happened in 2010, the Court of Appeals upheld the common law to a constitutional challenge, because it said that the findings of fact that were appended to the law when it was passed in 2007, ending in 1978 and amended in 1988, those findings of fact are sufficient to provide a rational basis even though they violate common sense and basic economics because those findings of fact say that by restricting the supply of medical services, we can reduce the cost and improve the accessibility that seems to turn economics on its head absolutely turns economics on its head.

Arguably, in the 1970s there was a rationale for doing that because of these perverse federal laws. But those laws are gone. At the present time, there is no possible justification for making such irrational assumption than one of the things we argue in our brief is that the court shouldn't simply defer to the legislature on this. It's got to take a look at the facts of the matter, and we've attached as an appendix. All a long list of studies all all of which were published since the Court of Appeals had about that decision in 2010. Dozens of them, all of which find that just as you would expect in states with common laws health healthcare services covered by combos cost more. There are harder to obtain and fewer of them and we think the court needs to take that into consideration. John is you studied this case in Dr. Singh's assertions in his lawsuit, and then as you review the North Carolina Constitution and did your research. What did you come away with believing is the strongest component of the case to say that Dr. saying is being unfairly kept from providing MRI scans to his patients.

I think this through his strongest argument is his argument under the North Carolina state constitutions antimonopoly clause clause was originally and I've written a paper about this that clause was originally added to the state constitution in 1776 for the specific purpose of preventing the awarding of or the grant of exclusive privileges to individuals or groups. That's what we have here is exactly the kind of monopoly that the clause was written to prevent and it's perfectly on point. I think you should prevail about. If nothing else, what happens sent to this case. From here you filed the brief in the last day of September, I what happens when will it be heard, the schedule right now calls for hearing the week of October 21 at some point after that. Hopefully not too long after that, the court to make a decision whether to dismiss the case or not.

Whatever the court does. I'm sure the other Siebel appeal. So I I think God this court the station he's gonna go forward in the Superior Court was going up to the Court of Appeals and at John when you say the other side you time at the state of North Carolina because the case is against the Department of Health and Human Services's right right and there are other organizations in addition to the John Locke foundation national organizations have taken interest taken an interest in North Carolina. Certificate of need laws. Why, because this is a problem all across the country there. Still, laws in place in 35 states.

I believe that the member everywhere there there there harming the public are raising costs that reduce accessibility in the violating people's rights. What happens in North Carolina is going to be important. All of the country down.

Thank you very much for joining I do the same with this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina journal, honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina journal is free to subscribers sign up@carolinajournal.com you'll receive Carolina journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles.

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Thanks for joining us. Happy to be here. Thank you for MA so you in Florida have actually gone through this process of trying to make dental therapy a reality before we get into how it's played out. Why was the scene is something that would be a good idea. While in Florida we have a very specific vision for market-based health care reform so we all know that effort to repeal and replace Obama care was a failure and it's kind of relegated to the states to improve health care access in healthcare quality in Florida as we were doing some research we uncovered some rather significant shortages of oral healthcare practitioners throughout the state and so you there were things we were looking at in other areas of healthcare, we were approached by some folks in the state who would sit this is a big problem. What can be brought to bear on the policy side and so I would begin to look at what other states were doing when he came across the state of Minnesota which has a pretty well-established pro bono program for dental therapy and advanced dental therapy and we begin to see that a number of states had had begun to implement the policy. So last year in 2018. We did a research study and we begin the process of working with policymakers on exploring this continued into the 2019 legislative session and then it's it's an ongoing debate as a reminder for people who are new to this house dental therapy different than what we know about going to the dentist and meeting with the shore.

The best analogy to make is it's a little bit more expansive than a dental hygienist but less expensive than a dentist and so where is a dentist in many situations can perform somewhere upwards of 450 to 500 procedures. Depending on the state and the regulatory system, dental therapist during the kind of 75 225 procedures so routine care and maintenance filling cavities working with patients on a more regular basis to kind of make oral care more consistent part of their of their routine, it lowers healthcare costs in two ways. One is it's you and the providers are less expensive, and secondly, it also kind of creates a system where people are taking more responsibility for oral care, thus limiting the need for more expensive procedures down the road more access lower cost.

Sounds like a great idea when you decided to put this out there. Everyone jumped on board said yes, let's do it right isn't always the case in policy will wish that it were inevitably any time you talk about an idea for structural or systemic change in an area so entrenched like healthcare you're going to butt up against kind of the special interests that kind of our benefit off of the existing regulatory system, and so as was the case in Minnesota and about seven or other state seven or eight other states that have implemented this Dave how to do battle with the state chapter of the American dental Association who represents dentists who you know when you talk with dentists on the ground, you generally get a supportive attitude with the trade Association. Tennessee state sees things another way do we get a sense of why you know I it's it's a really good question and I sat down with them you know is we've gone through the policy debate over the last couple of years and they bring out arguments that just don't hold water. They they say it won't actually help weld the research and in both anecdotal and quantifiable statistics show that it does. They say people with high school degrees will be pulling teeth will that's just kind of a scare tactic and they say some other things that just did that don't make any sense when you unpack the reality of the policy. So the only conclusion that you know we can come to is that they are a trade association and a special interest that sees this as a threat to their existing members where in reality, it's exactly the opposite and those states that have implemented the policy, proven that out. We are chatting with cell news. So, who is vice president for policy at the James Madison Institute as you've chatted with other folks who are not the dentists who would who would see perhaps of their own ox board what the response among other folks did they say Dallas is a great idea will in that's pretty much been the overall response and this is a great idea.

It will provide access to patients for oral care, which is traditionally been one of the Hoffer areas of healthcare to get people into a chair and one of the reasons is is that it's kind of scary folks do not really like going to a dentist so the coalition that we put together was made up of dental hygienists family care physicians, interest groups, trade associations, all of whom are active in healthcare and healthcare policy and all of whom, with the exception of you know the one existing Association, the dental Association, all of whom are in favor of of the program.

One thing that I have heard is a layman in this is that dental care and oral hygiene are incredibly important for overall healthcare but is that the sense that you're getting for the people and other personnel's good health care system that if we can make this better.

That will make our lives easier. Dealing with so many other things 100% and that's why we've actually had folks in primary care services come on board to the coalition and there is a tragic case. It kind of lays all this out a number of years back, a young, I believe he was 11 or 12 years old boy in Maryland contracted a tooth infection, something that a simple over-the-counter or prescription. Anabiotic would've knocked out. He did not have access to a dentist. He was the son of a single working mom and the. The infection eventually spread to his brain.

By the time he was admitted to the ER he was gone within a day or two and so at the extreme, you have oral care impacting somebody's life and in the less extreme it oral care is kind of the gateway to overall physical care in the brief time that we have left for North Carolina is score to get on this path of pursuing dental therapy.

What should the folks pushing for expect expect that it will be a multiyear debate and any kind of battle anything that's truly transformative is going to take a period of time. I would expect to gain success. Build a great and broad coalition of folks from across healthcare from across parent groups from across the stakeholder groups as well get grassroots support for this and let it build up from the from the bottom up and policymakers will listen.

Do you get a sense based on what happened in other states that your own state Florida eventually North Carolina.

Other states have even thought about this will have dental therapy.

One day I believe so and I think were in kind of the early adopter stage of any kind of innovation. Minnesota and Alaska were really the first two states to kind of bring this on. Even though it's been a practice in other countries for for many years so you've got those first handful of states that have kind of embraced it and I think what's gonna happen is you're going to begin to see a groundswell of support for this that'll topple a few other states in the policy arena on this and then and then eventually I think it will be a 50 state solution one person who will watch with interest as this plays out his cell news so he is vice president for policy at the James Madison Institute in Florida. Thanks for joining us. Thank you very much Raven will have more on Carolina journal radio in just a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now.

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What this bill actually does is create a level of transparency were all these discipline plans will be submitted to DPI where they can be reviewed. You can see if there's outliers in the discipline.

Plans are being submitted that one particular LAI on particular issues, way out here in all hundred 14 others, or not to where you can see that in the actual policies so even though it seems like there's a certain level of flexibility with the flexibility is coming to a higher level of transparency with this where we can actually analyze what is going on with the discipline plans across the state where we can see if there's problems are not democratic representative Kelly Alexander was among those objecting to one piece of the bill input and certain exemptions from punishment. We are perhaps venturing into an area with long-term suspicion on something is open to interpretation as Dravis, that we might want to be very careful about. I know that in a number of circumstances, you have some cultural differences as to what constitutes acceptable dress you have some stylistic differences. We come up with conflicts all the time between interpretations of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Republican representative Harry Warren responded to the complaints we talk about local control being dictated to my by the state legislature. If you read the bill on page 1, lines 10 through 11 says local boards of education, in consultation with teachers, school-based administrators, parents, and local law enforcement agencies shall adopt the way I read that means there's 115 LAA's that will determine locally by us locally what the parameters for behavior and discipline will be sent to me that we are requiring local boards of education to come up with a code of behavior that is relevant to their individual LAA and every stakeholders involved in the bill goes on to require them to make sure that everybody is aware of what that code is been listening to highlights from a recent debate about changes to state school discipline will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast Locke is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right light. Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time – that's listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio hi Michiko guy, small business owners in North Carolina have a new option for providing health insurance under state law permits Association health plans. They allow small businesses to band together as larger units to be treated like big companies when purchasing health coverage. Republican State Sen. Joyce graphic explains why lawmakers wanted to address the issue as we travel around his legislators and we talk with our constituents. Small business owners every day tell us the difficulties of offering healthcare coverage to their employees. Large businesses have been able to take advantage of that for a long time. This bill just opens it up for small businesses to be able to have the same advantages that large businesses currently enjoy graphics as most insurance rules and mandates will remain in place insurance agencies and the insurance commissioner is in charge of all of the regulations.

They will remain the same to suggest changes who is able to take advantage of that opportunity. Republican state representative Kyle Hall explained his support for Association health plans start off with the search was back at home is a real turnoff. See small rose firm so far is simply cannot afford to go out on their own for self-insurance further from plundering as North Carolina heard from a coffee shop: follow Ferguson farmers in Wellsville, North Carolina goes across the small business democratic representative Brian Turner joined colleagues in support of Association health plans as a realtor is talk about five my firm for number of years really addressing the concerns of plans the past. These plans want to live a strong solvency standards cover pre-existing conditions going be regulated by the department insurance is operated as large employers under North Carolina law still have coverage requirements and regulations for 55 in Florida for the market and the Association will dictate what these plans cover.

Although we got the market today is most likely to cover a lot of basics like prescription drugs mental health care. Things like that. We expect to see those Moses plans are also a number of federal health benefit mandates that will apply to these plans will be subject to the same 57 acquirements state also mandates Carolina so as for the benefit of the state and remind folks that these plans were to be off by associations in these associations there to work for the benefit of the members and I asked what plans we will see Republican representative Josh Dobson placed the Association health plans in context. Lawmakers approved them in the small business healthcare act small business (provided tools are small businesses to combat the rising cost of healthcare for your lower cost coverage options for their employees.

Under this bill organizations life chamber: retail merchants Association of realtors on restaurant and lodging Association, among many others offer high quality Hill covers members calls. These organizations represent hundreds of thousands of small businesses and contractors. Employers who reside in all 100 counties throughout the state lawmakers highlighted support from the business community. Greg Adams and his family owned two grocery stores in Lee County. Adams also serves as chairman for the North Carolina retail merchants Association with a tight job market we have in North Carolina is difficult to recruit and retain employees without providing benefits like health insurance is an independent grocery store owner or company's health insurance because of gone up tremendously over the last few years. Currently the cost of health insurance and individual health insurance policies and North Carolina small group market is more than any many independent retailers can afford. When our Association of Board of Directors me the cost of health insurance and the flavors legislative relief is a number one issue we discussed this come from all kinds of retailers like stores, clothing stores, convenience stores, small business healthcare act will help level the playing field for businesses like mine in larger retailers and other larger employers allowing my business to join together with other retailers to have the opportunity to purchase the same insurance that large businesses can purchase teams only. There to me. The off hopping here that small business is the backbone of North Carolina and I can think of no other better way to help small business on the floor for the wiggly stores are groups that this is the number one thing we talk moss on the board for the Carolina food. Ashley counts at the board meetings with all the other businesses that Richard Greene is Executive Director for the North Carolina craft Brewers Guild. We have a lot of small business people employed between five and 25 people there biggest issue beyond getting more sales. Of course, is being able to attract employees and be able to retain them and be able to provide a decent living, which includes healthcare.

I want to thank the legislature legislators for the hard work on on this bill is it will be a big boom to our industry. As with all the other retail said, and small businesses throughout the state. This is very critical piece to our business and in helping us control our costs. Wendy Harris of Fayetteville owns real estate company.

She also serves as legislative chair for North Carolina realtors members need an option for satiation health plan for affordable quality and acceptable healthcare coverage center as a working business center. I manage employees and independent contractors.

Not one of my team can afford health insurance.

Personally grandfathered health insurance plan is being done away with it the end of this year. I have gladly paid 30% increases of my health insurance plan for the last 17 years and now I am faced with 3 to 400% increase of my own plan with higher deductibles and lower standards of service.

This is very personal to me as a team is a realtor team has traveled around the state this year from Murphy to Manny and the number one thing we have heard stories of the challenges and hard choices are members are facing because of the rising cost of coverage we heard about how cost of rivet written every year and how others have also had previously grandfathered plans that are no longer available. We heard from people who had to make the unconscionable choice of paying for their health insurance or paying their mortgage and now right now we have 6000 realtors who are uninsured because they no longer can make that choice. They have to have a home for their family health plan coverage of the only viable option that will close the gap in the market for the citizens of our future health and well-being on the bill. We have work ahead of we need to develop plans which meet our members needs were committed to establishing plans that provide the highest quality coverage for affordable price. You been listening to supporters touting North Carolina's recently enacted small business healthcare act will help those small businesses band together for Association health plans. Those plans will provide more affordable healthcare options for small business employees will return with North Carolina German radio in a moment real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the germline foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms in the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call.

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We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio Donna Martinez Roy Cooper faced protesters at a recent meeting of what's called the climate change enter agency counsel is really just a fancy name for the state panel that's been tasked with meeting the governor's goal of transitioning North Carolina to what he calls a clean energy economy. So what does that really mean Don Vander Barth has an answer for that. He is the senior fellow with the John Locke foundation.

Also the former Sec. of the Department of environmental quality under Gov. Pat McCoury Don welcome back to the show is big meeting and there were protesters outside now one would just in general think that environmentalists would be with the governor's plan to go to a clean energy economy. So what were the protesters upset with the governor about well as best I can tell that there were a number of issues and some of them had to do with the governor's apparent support for expanded use of natural gas which new research is indicated may in fact not be as is good for preventing global warming as previously thought. Then there were also concerns about the continued to fracturing the expanded fracturing of wood pellets for use especially in Europe for combustion under the guise of it being carbon neutral which most scientists would disagree with.

And then of course I wanted more solar nor went is not clear who wants more of that. They both say they want for the governor's plan essentially calls for two things.

He says he wants to modernize the electric grid and also he wants to reduce our use of fossil fuel energy so that on its face, sounds like good ideas but what he said it's actually a bit of an oxymoron. What he wants to expect to modernize the grid forced to allow more solar, more intermittent sources, which are difficult to integrate and right now we're sort of at the limit of that. So he wants to improve the grid so that that would accommodate more solar but that's essentially saying we want more natural gas because you can't have solar power added on your grid without having requisite backup natural gas combustion turbines, and that's and that's simply the fact.

So if you want more more solar you want more natural and again I think I'm a little sympathetic to the protesters. The increase use of natural gas now, according to new research coming out of both Cornell and Duke here in North Carolina indicates that the various steps of natural gas production and transportation leads to significant emissions of methane the primary component of natural gas, methane intern is a very powerful greenhouse gas more much more powerful than CO2 in these researchers opined that the increase use of natural gas. In fact, is tantamount to adding a coal-fired. There is a distant disagreement here of the Department of environment quality uses older numbers in older approach.

Essentially, you know, you would agree with Cornell and with the Duke professor if you believe the climate change crisis if you will is is in the next 20 years. More important, or you would agree with division Department of quality.

If you think it's much, much longer than that and I think that was that was a major part of the protest as we learn more and more and more research is done into not just fossil fuels sandwich. We know a lot about, but also these so-called renewable sources that have become so popular not only with the public but also in public policy and terms of subsidies, tax credits, etc. we seem to be learning that to every type of energy source.

There are pros and there are cons there is really no panacea.

Certainly that's true with sources like solar and wind the problems we are facing Duke is facing in integrating these intermittent sources is going to lead to a very costly fix that is to modernize the grid what we are missing I think is very important component of nuclear power and we need to before we spend more money on solar and wind. We need to very seriously talk about number 12 incentivize the continued use of our existing nuclear plants and we need to have the conversation about building new nuclear plants. One would think that people who identify themselves as environmentalists and are so concerned about Ted greenhouse gas emissions and global warming, etc. that they would love nuclear power because it is zero emissions. But most of them don't you see that in the scientific community. It's a different view. If you look at the serious what I think serious environmentalists you'll see support for nuclear power. This this the question you raise a very good one, which is on the one hand you hear people wanting more solar, which means more natural gas and I'm arguing, and others are arguing for more nuclear.

Let's consider this. What if we add 30% increase in our load due to having everyone drive electric vehicles something that government Cooper.

March says he wants under the current grid under the current policies that 30% increase is going to be met with primarily natural gas so you will see an increase in the amount of greenhouse gases being admitted for a shift to them or electric vehicles that government Cooper another claim is actually going to benefit our environment. On the other hand, if we if we put that off him concentrate on keeping on nuclear plants going, getting him relicensed and beginning construction on new nuclear you're going to ultimately lead to a place where electric vehicles might makes. I think the discussion of EV's is really interesting because set you will hear some supporters say look, you know, there's nothing coming out of the tailpipe but you have written about this some what about the other side of that will write a minute. I think any serious adult knows that use them simply shifting the emissions from the tailpipe to a nearby steam station whether it's a coal-fired steam station or natural gas plant emissions are coming out and I think it's important to remember is that these units electric vehicles are any more efficient than our gasoline engines and we really need to go slowly before we jump into a massive, nationwide incentives incentive program to have us drive and talk about the stakeholders in different areas of public policy.

EM the big stakeholder that would be those of us who have to pay electric bills.

Pretty much everybody will get talked about a whole lot inside like to get your thoughts in terms of energy policy about the differences in these types of sources and what they cost, and ultimately the impact on that electric bill that comes in the mail or that you pay through your bank draft out once a month. It is so true that most of the so-called stakeholders are spore interest special interest groups. There is very little representation).

Such and the current in the end, the current source were talking right now the cheapest electricity on our grid is existing nuclear plants. That's the cheapest there is.

That's what Duke dispatches first, but so often when we talk about solar they neglect the cost of the natural gas plant that has to come with solar fields and those costs combined are very hard indeed we are seeing our rates go up, and recently do. Just ask to increase the rates, much of which is caused by nuclear energy. Talking with Don Vandermark. It's fascinating subject.thank you very much time we have for the program this week.

We appreciate you listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch, I'm Donna Martinez will join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the job. To learn more about the John Locke foundation donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio sending email to development John Locke or call 1866 GLM info 16655466 Carolina Journal radio is the John land foundation airline is maintaining Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are so clearly reflect the station. For more information about the show.

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