Carolina Journal Radio No. 873: Judge accepts key findings from outside consultant’s Leandro report

From chair to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome the Carolina Journal radio I Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting upstate. You've probably heard about breaks it, but what about likes it. The North Carolina state director of a new group called Blix that explains the concept.

It involves the so-called black exit from the Democratic Party Delta UNC systems, interim president among those concerned about North Carolina's ongoing state budget impasse you'll hear his assessment of the impact on public universities in the state. North Carolina has taken initial steps toward cleaning up its criminal code you learn why that's good news for one national reformer. He calls criminal law reform.

A necessary change and will get an expert assessment of a recent settlement involving Duke energy and coal ash.

What are the environmental impacts. What could it mean for energy customers. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline could we be headed for a constitutional crisis over separation of powers as it relates to K-12 education in North Carolina. Well that could be possible, says Dr. Terry stoops of the John Locke foundation. He's here to share the latest developments in a decades-old legal battle with the new development. Terry of course is vice president for research. The director of education studies here at the Locke foundation Terry welcome back to the show. Thank you. Remind us if you would what the LeeAnn row legal case is all about. In 1990 for parents and school districts soothe the states, alleging that the state was not providing the type of educational opportunities in low income districts that they believed those districts were entitled to. In 1997, the North Carolina Supreme Court ruled that students have a constitutional right to access to a sound basic education. After that ruling, the case was remanded to the trial court which which is where it remains today and was overseen by a Superior Court judge Howard Manning. Manning retired and another judge judge David Lee took his place overseeing the states implementation of this constitutional requirement, so they oversee student performance in the various elements they have said contribute to ensuring that students have access to a sound basic education little bit later.

I want to explain to us why it is in a case like this is gone on for year after year after year. In fact, the LeeAnn row Rob Leandra oh on the person that the case is named for in on his behalf is like a middle-age man at this place right he's an attorney so we have a second judge that is now in charge of this case because as you mentioned judge Manning retired. But Judge Lee now has the case and just days ago Terry and he issued an order. What's the new development in this case, well what really changed was not necessarily judge Lee's appointments, although he will definitely have a different style than judge Manning had, but it was the decision by the plaintiffs and defendants to come together and to ask the judge to allow them to have an independent evaluator determine what is required for a sound basic education and so they contracted with California-based consultant Wes Stead to write a report about some of the various things that North Carolina needed to do in order to ensure access to a sound basic education. The plaintiffs and the defendants agreed with Weston's recommendations and Judge Lee issued an order basically affirming the initial recommendations that Wes Stead provided there are three phases of recommendations just to give you a sense of how many there are three phases of recommendations that are included in the 300 page West End reports. Judge Lee essentially affirmed the phase 1 recommendations from Wes Stead in anticipation of future court actions.

Terry could it be that down the road. The judge will intervene and tell North Carolina legislators that they must, by court order spend an additional amount of money on K-12 education and if that's possible. Doesn't that indeed set up a crisis separation of powers based on the North Carolina Constitution. Well it's definitely possible and will know more when the plaintiffs and defendants forward draft consent orders to the judge at the end of March for a possible court hearing in mid April to discuss what that consent order weight may be an in that order could be Wes Stead's recommendation that the state increase its educational funding by $8 billion a year or $1 billion over the next eight years, excuse me, so roughly $5 billion a year.

That's right, emotional, additional, and so that would roughly double the state's current contribution to public education in North Carolina that might very well happen and that would absolutely be a constitutional crisis because our Constitution is very clear that it's the legislature. The controls the purse strings and so the courts now get in a position of requiring the Gen. assembly to spend money on something even if it's something that we all agree is important like education and there is a separation of powers issue that must be confronted and I do have to remind listeners that we've had a separation of powers statute in the North Carolina Constitution since 1776. That is how fundamental of a concept it is to North Carolina's government what would happen if that occurred reasonably the legislature.

The leadership there would say hey wait a sec, with all due respect, Judge Lee where the people who appropriate the money not the judicial branch will that might very well happen and the real question is to the courts really have a mechanism by which they can force the Gen. assembly to appropriate more money there really isn't much of an enforcement mechanism for we can tell unless they somehow issue an injunction on the legislative session or something really dramatic, so the judge has been saying that he wants the Gen. assembly to be more involved in the case. It's worth noting that the Gen. assembly is not an intervener or party to the case. There on the outside looking in, like the rest of us. And so he wants the Gen. assembly to be more involved in the case but the general assembly is asking a legitimate question.

You want us to be more involved in the case, but you're also planning on ordering us to spend more money that doesn't sound like cooperation.

It sounds like coercion. This issue of money I think is an interesting one.

Terry, because you and I talked many times about this or listeners some to Carolina Journal radio won't be surprised to hear that there isn't research that has a that shows a direct causation between the amount of money that you spend and the outcome in terms of student achievement. So why is this case, at least for a lot of people focused on money.

Well, it's focused on money because a sense of the plaintiffs and defendants wanted it focused on money and this is the real issue is that since the courts have had oversight of the Leandra case. There hasn't been as much of a focus on money.

Howard Manning would focus on many other things and rightfully so because of the importance of the various inputs and outcomes that these low income districts have so this is really a matter of the plaintiffs and defendants, ensuring that they had a report that gave them a number they were fishing for number and they got that number and it's 8 billion over the next eight years possible. This is gone on so long. I'm asking myself that question every day you started started analyzing that's exactly right like to think I'm still young, but 25 years. This case is been going on and it's because it's in a strange situation. It is been remanded.

It's in a special place in the court system. The judges appointed to oversee the case so it's not your typical case that runs through the courts and then ends once it gets to the home wherever it's going though its last destination.

This is just sort of hovering over North Carolina as it has hovered over a lot of other states that have similar types of cases. This was a national campaign to try to use the courts to increase education funding and so North Carolina is not alone in having a school funding case that is being overseen by the courts with no end in sight that orders billions in extra spend in your analysis, and writing about this case in K-12 education in North Carolina course all of that analysis available@johnlock.org and@carolinajournal.com thanks may not think you can say with as much more Carolina Journal radio to come just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind.

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Thank you so much Mitch. I'm happy to be here. So first of all, what is blanket okay while Blacks it, hence the name is the black exit from the Democratic Party that tower organization started and the founder was Candace Owens. She started with the YouTube series that exploded on the scene called red pill black and that kind of birth. The movement of Blacks. It which was in the form of bricks that the idea was if the that British making their exit within the Blacks we need to make our exit from core values that no longer are in line with what we believe you mentioned red pill. I'm guessing this is a reference to the matrix and the characters in the matrix or the rental yeah figuring out what the real world was yeah if you guys check out it it's really dynamic because when she took that lead saying hey what's going on here with the black community and how we vote, what our values are, you know, it was really kind of like groundbreaking. It's what drew me in as well. What is it about the message that the community has been receiving from the Democratic Party that makes you think that it's time to have an exit of blood exit from the Democratic Party yesterday question mix. So the idea is with the fact that black people we are increasing in a property ownership were increasing in the number of college graduates. We are increasing in our small business property ownership even legal gun ownership and also the fact that for many of us are Christian values are still important to us. When we took a look at that. We started realizing Dari became readily apparent that the left no longer stood for those values that were traditionally important to us or where black people were going so they no longer represented that and was time to go. You mentioned that Candace Owens was the first person who really got this ball rolling. Now it has come to North Carolina when we mentioned at the top.

You are the North Carolina state director so there are more than just you number of people in North Carolina who are interested in. This tells about that. Yeah, I mean it's something really to be proud of these pretty much. North Carolina is leading the way.

When it comes to this black exit and the idea behind it is pretty much you know with the left no longer representing our values. It still for over the last 30 years. They could count on 80% of our vote. So the question became, you know, why is that it is because we didn't realize that we were stuck in a pattern we never did reconciliation.

We never did like a systems time to say for who we are right now and where were going. Does this lineup so the fact that you know North Carolina Blacks that starting here were leading that charge and I like to think of it as you know with the way the left engaged us think of a soda like a Super Bowl commercial. You know all hype, no substance.

You know their principles, you know, they are increasingly poor.

They have an increasingly poor product and pretty much the black community is no longer buying. So to have North Carolina can a lead that it's a really big deal because in our community. This is pretty much the equivalent of a revolution. We are chatting with Daniel Robinson who is North Carolina state director for blood exit so we we get the appointments of the black exit from the Democratic Party. What's next to him guessing. So people say so. Are they all go to now jump to the Republican Party or is it a case of melt weighing your options okay so that the key thing that we are looking to do with flex. It is actually create more specifically informed people and when I can mention the Super Bowl is the idea that you know the left always engaged us with propaganda.

Never any facts.

They never said okay let's take a look at how these policies have affected our community and Blacks is going to really shed light on that because were to put the propaganda side and then what were also going to do is give a fair approach to Udo conservative values that black people tend to have inherent inherent inherently seasoning so is the idea that you know on on one hand, we've traditionally voted you note Democratic without thinking, but at the same time. We've not had anyone kindly give a safe space to just kinda have us look at our values and see where I values lineup and I think one thing right now with the extremes that we find our society on. We need someone that just kinda say in which our organization will do here, take a list here. You look at your values.

Look at what's important to you and if you find yourself not in alignment with what you believe is important.

There's a safe space to break away and that's what were trying to encourage so we we are excited about the rallies that were having were excited about the educational programs that were having were excited to just have the four rooms of your being able to ask the questions of how do we do this. How do we see, if you know we need to switch you know who we support, or what we represent, or where were going, that's the community I mean that's the conversation that Blacks is creating a safe space to cut half sounds as if you and others were working on this.

Want to get a lot of good information before you make decisions rather than just say working to vote for this party or were to switch our allegiances and vote for the other party. We want to know what both parties or all parties stand for before we give anyone our allegiance. Yeah, very much so. Because if you if you pretty much look at it even right now with the idea fake news is pretty much an information war and how do we get the information to people in a way that aids them to make a decision without the bias our community has been is just like you know every time there's you know visits to our churches or visits to our communities is just like a flyer you know something put up on the door vote this way.

Why does it benefit me. No one has stopped to ever you know create the space for us to engage in those conversations. It's always been you do this because we've always done it. And right now. Blacks say is canna pulling people back from that and say we have the information to help you make those decisions. And when you make those decisions and find out that it wasn't what you thought there's a whole community of people that have broken away and made that shift and were here can encourage and support you through sounds as if your group is willing to do some work to learn more about the issues but also anyone who's trying to approach your group to get their support is gonna have to work hard in terms of providing accurate information. It's not. It's this is not to be an easy thing.

Anyone who's good to be taking part in this is going to have to work hard to show that they they have the right answers.

That's right, I mean on both sides. It's work it's work because you know any one of the reasons why it was Blacks that we appreciate the John Lott foundation because right now we want to take good research and data and get that in the hands of our community. That's not that's not always been done, or even ever been done. It's always been slants that have been you know prioritized towards you know we talk a lot about identity identity politics in the Newsweek.

We talk a lot about things that when you think about it we don't get the facts behind it before were pushed to vote for. So were getting this information out people are partnering with us to get the good information out to have the forums in the community events even school choice, like I think a lot of people do not even realize that within the black community, educating our children is so important in your website address again www.ncflexit.com that is the voice of Daniel Robinson. She is North Carolina state director for blood exit exit but don't think you so much. It will have more on Carolina journal radio just a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina conservative.com.

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Our faculty are student said in the communities we serve.

Without a new state budget in place will be unable to pursue major capital projects, and much-needed infrastructure repairs, enrollment growth, particularly since he promised institutions will go unfunded faculty and staff will not receive raises, which means our institution and institutions will be much less competitive when it comes to retaining and hiring the best talent and let me just pause and say of course I did. North Carolina is a state divided politically and course. I know it's an election year, but you and others have long described this UNC system as the crown jewel of our study and ask you and through you ask our state's leaders. Please don't make this system collateral damage in this year's political standoff, and finally, if I may put it this way. People have long said how much they support the system and I ask you please spare us the platitudes. Just get the budget everyone wants to know when will this budget. You'll get done. Obviously none of us knows the answer to that but it's looks like it's April at the earliest, if ever. There's no getting around the fact that the impasse in Raleigh is going to hurt UNC system is resilient through collaboration we will work to find ways to make sure the current crisis does not do irreparable damage to our institutions. But let me be very clear.

We don't have a reserve here at the system office to cover what otherwise would be funded, and so please don't ask us to do that. We simply don't have the money that's UNC system interim president William Roper speaking recently to the University system's board of governors. Roper was discussing the impact for UNC of the state budget stalemate. It stretches back to last summer.

In addition to Roper's comments, the governing board sent a resolution to lawmakers.

The POG asked legislators to finalize some new budget deal with more Carolina journal radio.

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Welcome back Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca North Carolina is taking the first steps toward a possible rewrite of the state's criminal code. One person who would like to see that happen is Jim Copeland North Carolina native and New Bern resident Copeland is also senior fellow and Dir. of legal policy at the Manhattan Institute. Why should we be paying attention to the criminal code, the criminal law is really the foundation to some degree of why were worried about expansive government and why we support limited government the ability to take away someone's life or liberty, put them in prison. Some of the core issue that they were worried about more so than tax and regulation of these other sorts of things. The second thing is for you to do that than people really need to be on notice for what's criminal but we don't want to be locking people up for making innocent mistakes and it's it's an old maxim in the American law, the Anglo-American law, the innocence that ignorance of the law is no excuse but that was before we had 300,000 federal crimes and how many state crimes are in return we could really quite figured out, but there are so many and they go beyond the the criminal code they go beyond the statutory code itself and also some other areas of law. If we really want people to be able to comply with the law make it easier to understand what that law is and and we tried not to punish the innocent people who are trying to run a family farmer small business but but inadvertently making a mistake. Based on the volume of law that's out there.

You look at criminal issues across the country. How does North Carolina compare the good answer for working on is all the states are equally bad in this, to some degree.

Every state has many multiples of both crimes and it's been in their state criminal code that goes beyond the model Penal Code. Every state has hundreds of thousands of pages of crimes. Every state has some form of delegation of crime creation to regulatory agencies or municipalities or private bodies of that somewhat, North Carolina is an outlier in terms of creating more felonies because it's been creating a higher percentage of followings so that the problem given the collateral consequences for being a felon, you lose the right to vote, you lose the right to bear arms much harder to get a job so that's something that we feel particularly worrisome in North Carolina, but all the states have problems along these areas. If people don't know they're committing a crime and don't even have a reason to think they might be committing a crime. What kinds of problems. Does that cause we think it's a really big problem. But if you look at the totality of the statute books the majority of crimes. Two thirds of the crimes in North Dakota. Most places are not in the criminal code itself, the criminal code itself is much bigger than it needs to be is a lot of crimes out of the statute.

It's beyond that and then you have to go through each municipalities ordinance the billing on where you are to decide what to crime.

You have to look through the regulatory codes in public health and environment and agriculture. Look through this with standards set by the guilds in areas like nutritional pool or dentistry or what. How do you know to make you not violating these frontal people are getting wrapped up in the law.

Sometimes they're being good neighbors. Sometimes they're just running a business, but they don't know what size box are supposed to use what's formed are supposed to fill out.

I do think I do think most prosecutors are trying to do the job. Generally, they're not trying to just ensnare people who are unknowingly committing these sorts of violations we have seen North Carolina litigate this up to the US Supreme Court when it came to private businesses trying to set up a teeth whitening kiosks that created a conflict for the dentist.

Some of the dentists obviously don't want competition is very profitable for them. The question is is is is a real public health concern, not in the state legislature is not even weighing in on all they're doing is saying, well, whatever standards the dentists come up with on their own are the standards that you violated your committing a crime. So so these are real problems with individuals in North Toronto set up a blog diabetics that this is what I did to try to fix my own diet given trouble with the state over this because they weren't complying with the nutritionists, rules, etc. they were trying to practice dietetics without a license rule is so these are these real issues because they are real people were speaking with Jim Copeland, senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. It should be easy to fix this problem right. It's not easy to fix. Unfortunately, you could put in prophylactics.

In other words, you can say I were to let people fight back if they make an innocent mistake will require his criminal intent, but without even knowing what all the rules are what all the crimes are will know what all the other than the consequences would be of doing that. So when withdrawn is done only different from some of the other states and I think is to their credit, they're just getting the ball rolling on it, is to try to say we need to figure out what we've got to look at all these crimes we need to re-codify this we need to try to understand the problem first and simplify it.

But given how vast the criminal code is, but the overall statute books are at all.

The use of subsidiary regulations and ordinances of criminal teeth are. It's a big effort and a big lift, hoping North Korea can stick with it would will be a model for the nation of North: I can get this done.

What would it mean for North Carolina to finish the work of cleaning up the criminal code.

I think it would show that it can be done.

A part of the reason why this hasn't happened. Is everyone just as it's just impossible not know other states have done various things. Some states we worked with Ohio and Michigan. They set up default criminal intent standards to try to protect the innocent folks who are getting ensnared by some of the rules and that seems to work reasonably well other states. Kansas has an office of the repeal or trying to repeal old crimes. Minnesota had an open session trying to take crimes off the books and so things can work to some degree, but maybe just getting low hanging fruit.

When you do that and they're not necessarily recodify everything and simplify it and streamlining it streamlining at the very difficult to do. It's not the super thing.

The average legislators to go home with and say thankfully we did this because nobody is really getting a benefit from it, but it's really important, and so forth on it doesn't and shows it can be done in other states.

I think will follow.

I work at the John Locke foundation you work at the Manhattan Institute. Is this just some crazy right wing scheme is one of these things that that cuts across. I think both party labels and ideologies that their areas of the criminal law there to be more controversial. We do about narcotics and drugs.

What we do in terms of bail incarceration and imprisoning people when they come to their violent criminals, the murderers, the rapists, the assaulters leave people what those folks running out on the street but there's there's disagreement. There's disagreement between conservatives and libertarians on the sorts of things, but this is really different this about fundamental motors and getting her most by these sorts of regulatory crimes, particularly at the state level. It's the small business owner. It's the sole proprietors. The family farmer. This is about saving white-collar criminals work at giant corporations because those giant corporations have compliance teams. They sometimes break the law, but there it's hard to argue that they're not knowing when they're doing it, they, they may be trying to skirt the law of certain legal room rules, but by and large they were viewing it with their in-house lawyers.

Other outside counsel, the average of the personnel beer doesn't have that and so these are the small business owners doing this. These family farmers. These are disproportionately people who have less education disproportionately can be minorities and women, people who are working at big businesses and things like that. That's is often getting ensnared by these rules, so I'm hopeful that this is the sort of thing we might actually see the atypical bipartisan compromise. That's Jim Copeland. He lives in North Carolina but works as a senior fellow and Dir. of legal policy at the Manhattan Institute is touting the benefits of criminal law reform will return with more Carolina general radio in a moment real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms in the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation.

Welcome back to Carolina general radio. I'm not a Martinez Gov. Roy Cooper's Department of environment equality has ordered a Duke energy to excavate its remaining coal ash sites.

The cost of cleanup has risen significantly and it's leading to all sorts of questions about who will end up paying for this and about Gov. Cooper's changing view on that subject. Don Vannevar is the senior fellow with the John lock foundation. He of course is a scientist and the former secretary of DEQ during the Pat McQuarrie administration Don welcome back to the show right coal ash that is the residue from using coal to produce energy, and our listeners may recall a few years ago there was a spill of some of this into the Dan River and that really brought the issue to the forefront.

So what has the state now told Duke it must do right so coal ash presents really two different problems.

One is the one manifested Dan River, which is you got a structural failure occurs due to lack of maintenance by Duke and that caused the leak into the river.

So that's a structural issue, then the second is simply the potential that groundwater is somehow contaminated by storing the coal ash underground in the ground so your core administration of the legislature passed the course management. Akamai gave DEQ the authority to tackle this issue and the act also defined a certain number of collations to be dug up and left.

Six is what they called low risk and those low risk basins could still have been dug up, or they could be kept in place and Drained, but it was up to the department to do that and the risk was such that the time scheduled. The timeframe was later so this is where we are now in a sort of abrupt announcement last year, the department said all six of those remaining basins had to be completely excavated, which is the most extreme and most expensive option. Duke had proposed a number of ways of dealing with it, but there were far less expensive than included draining most of them and uncapping them in place so Duke.

Of course, was was concerned very they have a duty to us. Low cost electricity and so they filed a lawsuit against DEQ and that's where it should have progressed. They should've our judge would hear the two sides in the science would win out and whatever came out of that presumably would happened okay enter in the special interests, environmental groups, they, of course, for various reasons and they led by their law firm called the Southern environmental Law Center.

They wanted to stay everything and are not really all that concerned with the sides are just as that's the best solution. Certainly some some arguments against it, but that's what I want and so they have filed a lawsuit is an ongoing lawsuit. So what happened was that there was a settlement in the settlement resulted in not only coal ash being excavated but more importantly, it dealt with, who was okay. That brings us to the nut of the question we want to talk about here today. First of all, how expensive is this likely to be and who is going to pay for this right so as a result of the excavation that was dictated by the cost management, which was passed under government cores administration. The calls were already pegged at about $4 billion. The costs associated with doing the rest of this. The remaining coal ash patient would've been five to $6 billion more.

The settlement is a seven left about 30% of the coal ash in the ground and so the estimates I'm seeing is something around order of 4 1/2 billion more dollars so that's pretty much double, then absolutely, absolutely. But but the questions that you may relate about it. I thought the many, but one of the mesolimbic department wanted said that the science dictated that everything had to be dug up and that's not the case. So I didn't understand what was revealed.

The baby department to know about but probably the most important facet is that the department which were so representing state of North Carolina agreed in the settlement to those provisions that will absolutely bring those costs to customer so you and I who are a Duke energy customer when you get your bill, you're going to see as part of your bill now these cleanup see them as manifested in higher rates it won't say due to settlement signed by Gov. core Gov. Cooper's administration, but will be higher what's put surprising about this is that in 2014, Gov. Cooper was very adamant. I'm sorry you got that time. Atty. Gen. Cooper was very adamant that those costs should be borne by the shareholder, not by the customer and even was pushing for legislation that would prohibit passing these costs onto the customer. As I recall, there was a number of new stories actually written about that and really casting and Atty. Gen. Cooper is the protector of the consumer. No question. And now, if you fast-forward to the settlement.

There is actually the language in the settlement were DEQ and the special-interest groups say that this excavation is reasonable, prudent, and in the public interest, which is the requirements for passing along to the customer in Titian. They actually sign onto in the settlement that they pledge they will not challenge Duke when they bring this this reimbursement to the Public Utilities Commission. I will challenge that they won't, but will be market and this is what so so surprising. I saw an article just recently in the daily target. I believe were somebody from one of those special-interest groups that bemoaned the fact that the customer may have to pay for this. His group signed onto the very language that will ensure that that will happen. So it was kind of surprising surprising that Cooper did the 180 was kind of hypocritical for some of these environmental groups to act like they didn't understand what they find. I'm still not sure I understand why the DEQ after having said science dictates all the all the color should be excavated is now settled for some 30% less than that. So in addition to the big time question about the change in Roy Cooper's view on who should pay from 2014 when he was 82.

Now he is Department of environmental quality saying well. Yes that the people get the bills will see that in increased rates. There's a question about the science so what happens from there. If the science really doesn't dictate the type of setting.

So Dukas is trying to do ports the settlement to become a court order again solidify their position to make sure the customer pays for. But there may be customer groups that can challenge that settlement right now for public notice. We all know that's going to happen, but if someone were to challenge that you would then potentially see the unfurling of the reasoning behind the settlement in a court context and if indeed that happens we will have you back to talk about what is revealed in any of those documents are those hearings were talking with Don Vandermark. He is a senior fellow with the John lock foundation. By the way he writes and talks about these issues, as does our director of regulatory studies John Sanders and you can find all of that analysis that John lock.org and Caroline enter Journal.com on. Thank you very much for joining us appreciate the time we have for Carolina journal radio this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Michiko and Donna Martinez will join us again next week for another edition of Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donations that support programs like Carolina journal radio sending email to development John Locke or call 166 GLS info 16654636 Carolina journal radio is the John lock foundation Carolina spring market maintaining Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those did not merely union station for more information about the show. Other programs and services of the foundation. John Locke toll-free at 866 JM would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina and our sponsors.

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