Carolina Journal Radio No. 894: Recent events shine light on dubious history of N.C. barber regulations

From Cherokee to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio amateur coca during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. Ever since the COBIT 19 pandemic through hundreds of thousands of North Carolinians out of work. The state has faced problems with the timely payment of unemployment go here are highlights from a recent legislative debate on the topic. Lawmakers are committing more money for enrollment growth. North Carolina's public schools but some legislators question whether that makes sense during the pandemic cupboard 19 is attracted to attention to the need for healthcare innovation will hear ideas for getting government out of the way and will analyze the selection of a new president for the University of North Carolina's name is Peter Hans.

Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martin has joined us. She has the Carolina Journal headline more than 1500 hrs. of classroom instruction plus a year's worth of apprenticeship. That is our state's outsized requirement for becoming a barber in North Carolina. So why such a heavy burden for this profession. While the ugly origins of North Carolina's Barber licensing requirement is the subject of a fascinating piece written by John Sanders. John is director of regulatory studies here at the John Locke foundation. He joins me out to talk about some history and some rules that we really should be looking at very carefully. John will connect the program.

Thanks to what caught your eye about this.

In other words, why did you decide to write about the heavy burden of licensing on barbers will because so we have gotten into the question of looking at what kind of training please have and it was brought before the general assembly that you know we we require over 1500 hrs. for barbers to be trained and we don't require near that much for for policeman and the thrust of those comments was in a while, you know, the state is more interested in making sure barbers get more training than police but knowing the history of of the barbers license. These are two completely separate issues. We don't want to be applying those kind standards to police. Definitely we need to look at police training and those need to be the sorts of issues that people need to look at, but not in the context of why you know barbers should barbers get more training than police. The reason barbers have so much training is is a pretty ugly history. It really isn't.

So you were listening to this discussion about this.

This ongoing discussion that were having intercountry about town police and an policing and when you heard that comment made at the general assembly. You kinda separated that out from the discussion of a police training and said you know this really has some history to it here here in our state that we should talk about and try to move forward from you mention it's an ugly history and it dates back that decades tell us about why North Carolina barbers have such a heavy burden in order to practice their trade. Well, it goes back to the progressives and progressive racism. Unfortunately, in Barbara's licenses are or aren't the only sort of thing that we bought looked at other policies here, but in the 19th century after the Civil War was ended in emancipation. Former slaves were going to work for themselves and one of the things where they were very successful at was in barbering in North Carolina and many other places of the majority of barbers were were were were Blacks and the way that they were building themselves up as entrepreneurs in building their communities and reinvesting was through this trade. One of the biggest examples is John Merrick from Durham who ended up founding North Carolina mutual to help ensure Blacks so it was so was a unit was a wonderful example of entrepreneurship in America but the white barbers decided they didn't like this competition and they wanted somehow legally to put their their black competitors out of business and so what they did was they said they went to the state to regulate and they made it where you needed to go to school and you needed to to accomplish so much apprenticeship and and you needed to be able to do, fill out testing and these struck at the courts of racism within within North Carolina within the United States. This is not just a North Carolina thing. This was all over the United States. So these rules made it very difficult for anyone. But in this case, you're saying that time it really went back to people in this state, and others who held very reprehensible ugly views about African-Americans at that time and in order to try to essentially keep them out of being successful in earning a living and supporting their families.

They tried to make it really, really tough. Silly at all of these rules of all sorts of licenses and or hours of instruction, etc. but what is also interesting is that even with those barriers out there were people of all races who said okay that's a tough pill to climb, but I can do that and they went ahead and did what they did. The reason it was a problem for Blacks. Those because in the South at the time, especially they were. They weren't given the same sort of educational opportunities. They were not given the same sort of professional opportunities so it kinda struck at them in a way that you know looked on on paper legally to be just valid and not and not race-based, but the intent was definitely race-based so John this story and you've written about it in a very interesting way. And people can read this piece@johnlocke.org to read more about the history but you also make a larger point and that is that to this day. We have all sorts of unfair anticompetitive rules in place for barbers and a host of other professions that make it really tough for people to earn a living and that is one of your points as well to look at the barber situation but also to realize that to this day we have unfair rules absolutely made my response to to the standards police forces barbering was why in the world. We require over 1500 hrs. for barbers of training plus another year mean most states only go that far, but we have the same problem and a lot of professions in North Carolina were required occupational licensing. The general simile just recently passed a bill that will make it easier for veterans and their spouses of military spouses who moved to North Carolina to get a job because licensing makes it hard for them to do that but they have to move around a lot so they don't have the time to acquire the standards of the states requiring John. You've also written previously about ways to address this to move forward so that people can have an easier time to practice their skill or their trade and and support themselves earn a living raise their family and all of that that doesn't require actual licensing but here's the pushback that that we hear a lot people say well we need to have all these rules in place because whether to barbers or other professions. They have the potential to hurt people.

It's a public health question or a public safety question, but you are right that there are other ways that could protect everyone will most professions have professional certification organizations that will ensure the sorts of things and they that's part of the training I knew can have. You can have disclosure to your clients that you show what kind of certification that you have a look and if without licensing in many of these instances, there will be a greater push for that because consumers want to know and you want as as a provider to advertise really good at this. You know what you're doing and so John it. It's very interesting that the piece that you wrote not only about what's happening with barbers in North Carolina to this day. This is the incredible burden and the requirement in order to become a bard a barber in the state. Is there any appetite in the Gen. assembly to actually cut this back with respect to barbers. I don't think so.

However, there is a bill right now for universal license recognition which Arizona and recently I will have passed, which is a good idea John, thanks for sharing this. Appreciate it is much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind.

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It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for daily email do that Carolina journal.com Carolina journal rigorous unrelenting old-school journalism. We hold government accountable for you will go back to Carolina journal radio why Michiko got the code 19 pandemic is generated more than 1 million unemployment claims North Carolina. It's also generated multiple complaints about the state's unemployment system during a recent hearing Republican State Sen. Chuck Edwards highlighted the problems are citizens of been told they can't work it in turn for their cooperation. We promised them that would help about 1.2 million folks have reached out and sought our help so they can pay the rents and feed their families to date about 540,000 of those claims were being paid my office and the office of most other legislators is working overtime listening to the frustration of those that are still asking for help. The first call that I answered this morning was from a lady back at home. That said she's been trying for weeks to get into the queue, she spends a couple of hours at a time gets kicked out then calls back and says that she can't be put in the queue at time and there's no let's be honest, there's no way anybody could have anticipated that we would've found ourselves in the crisis that were facing today. And so it would've been impossible to build a system to deal with this lawmakers listened to public complaints.

Linda money has been working to help unemployed workers file for benefits saying mobile devices such as smart phones and tablets were extremely unreliable with hunting and filling out information as the system had more and more users, even the computers were having a hard time navigating an already difficult program. The program itself is not user-friendly at all to many pages to switch between the questions are not straightforward, and too many questions are repeated errors or issues are not explained to let people know what is needed to be done or uploaded to correct the problem. The list goes on and on.

Anthony Martin shared his own story of trying to secure unemployment benefits by personal nightmare began April 17 when I got a call that I was going to be furloughed for a month. Initially I was furloughed for a month and immediately I got on the DES website to file the claim. That's when the problems all started.

I filled out everything to the best of my knowledge and thought I was on the right path was wrong. I began signing on every day to see if anything had updated and I noticed there was a fact-finding issue that needed to be cleared up.

However, clicking on the link did nothing but say no that's when I knew I needed help so I started calling in the first summit called it that took hundreds of tries just to get into all queue only to be told by the person on the other hand, that I needed to speak with the DES agent. I was then transferred to a message that told me to call back later Randy. Nobody assured her own unemployment horror story for no fault of my own 19-unemployment insurance.the first date I could my situation I am being paid.

One day a week during furlough to cover my medical benefits for my family need verifications when I started calling the DES helpline. No clarification was available. I was to get into the hold queue so I started filing my weekly certification. After two weeks of pending I started emailing most of you in the room simply like the email: Q to get okay, I've called 4 to 5 hours per day. Again, not even able to get into the hold queue. Thank you for your time and thank you for your help were better than us to be easier for everyone out there North Carolina during furlough or laugh. Nobody should have to call you all weekend and leave messages and email all of you and we should make it better for all of us are loosening the highlights from a recent legislative hearing on North Carolina's struggling unemployment system.

John Challis cited the problems his auto parts manufacturing business faced the company tried to file a so-called attachment claim for all of its workers. Unfortunately the attached claims work in some cases, but in some cases they have not work. We have employees that have not been paid yet and they have been out since the first week of April 1 week of April. They haven't been able to pay the rent. They haven't been able to buy groceries in my 30 years of 31 years now and educate.

I have never asked anybody to go to the food to the Christian mission never until this time, restaurant owner Marianne Lewis struggled to get basic information about unemployment claims. We close the restaurant on March 17, furloughed, all but two of our staff to 16 people were furloughed on the 17th on the 19th.

Three of those staff started the application process for unemployment by April 3. We had to hire one of those staff back so they could sit on the telephone to trying get our employee identification number. We received from the unemployment commission letters request for separation underneath it says EAN. There is no explanation. We have no or minimal experience with the unemployment security commission. We were not aware that that was actually our appointment, employer identification number. There's no place on the website that explains this is how it appears. And so we thought we had to call him to get that number and the associated code number which we were informed that we had to do over the phone.

We then on Monday, April 6 not getting through all of the phone systems Crashing the computer system also crashed. I see a failure in this long-range planning is what you are hired and representatives to do is not sexy, it doesn't bring in the votes it doesn't play well to the public. It saves lives.

Julie Savage had a hard time telling the story of her husband's layoff.

Six. Not only is the Spanish flu which is H1N1. This killer and one assistant we don't skip herd immunity is what is healthy clumsiness down is destroying our economy and systemic recoupment says powers that are just trying to shut down America and we are Americans going to look out for each other along with touched on a larger theme beyond the personal tail of unemployment system problems.

This isn't about politics. This isn't about unemployment insurance. This is about people having gifts, talents and skills that they want to use in their communities.

You have been stripped of your power to represent the people where you live, you represent local communities, cities and counties in our state, and I apologize that our governor has not trusted you to represent us and put us back to work.

We can do our job with integrity.

We can take care of one another and we can honor, not just you as you represent and put us back to work.

We can honor one another and keep one another.

Healthy anything that we can do to help you and empower you and give you political courage to stand up against so that the unemployment office can get back to doing their job, which is to take care of those who are unemployed, on occasion, on occasion, not for months on end, not for an indefinite amount of time not with an undisclosed pattern for how were going to reopen you been listening to highlights from a recent legislative hearing tackle problems within North Carolina's unemployment insurance system will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement@northcarolinaconservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James G.

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Actually we quiz the hardly came back and increased so I share your concern and I don't know the we can get a better answer is short but we we scrubbed and scrubbed and try to figure out intuitively, it did make sense doing many of our committees will represent Cleghorn discussed. One potential impact of the code 19 pandemic. A lot of people out of work. Many of the kids that have been in private schools for other alternative to traditional public schools. Reality is returning to public schools.

Just because you cannot afford to continue them in parochial schools and patient enrollment reality is representative Larry Pittman thinks the pandemic might have an opposite of that racism but it's all about possibility.

Somebody's around out there in the situation.

You can teach your kids and only maybe school and move forward instead of back about possibility doodle listening to State House committee debate about new funding for public school enrollment in North Carolina for Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet.

And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with us. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation, Québec, Carolina journal radio I Michiko got healthcare issues of course are all at the top of the agenda for many in North Carolina and one of the groups it's focusing on policies in the state is the foundation for government accountability. Joining us now to talk about some of the big issues in healthcare is Josh Archambeault. He is senior fellow at FG a thanks for joining us so much from one of the things that you have been working on is increasing this option of direct healthcare. First of all, before we talk about what can be done remind us how is that different from the traditional set up that were all used to shore so for most people who have employer-based insurance. Let's say they they go to the doctor and the doctor gets paid for each of those visits and then they wait and then they wait and then they get something in the mail and they get very nervous because it's from their health insurance company and maybe they owe a $30 co-pay or action. Maybe they owe the entire visit. It's really it's really a crapshoot on what's can show up in the mail and what it really is driven by is what insurance plan that you were on, and depending on your deductible level in your cost-sharing. It really is very different for different people. You don't find out, usually 30 to 60 days later. So that is led to all sorts of problems in healthcare moving in this direction of direct healthcare it's really you make a contract with the individual provider or group and you pay them a monthly fee very transparent.

You pay them and it's there's all sorts of benefits that can come of this model that we can talk about but the main thing is certainty. There's no surprise bills are no big bills, you're not waiting. You know what it's gonna cost every month or for the entire year and because of that. You also know what you're paying here it is at something where you know I kind of think I'm paying this, but I'm not really sure you know what the bill is correct in what the probably the most familiar that people may be what struck healthcare arrangement is direct primary care so primary care providers, and usually the fees. There are some are roughly around $5200 a month depending on how the larger family sizes what the practice offers but again very transparent. You know exactly what you're paying for upfront what are you working on on that to front in North Carolina yet so you know, there are direct primary care providers here in North Carolina and perhaps some your listeners are use those and they can see the valuable really primary care doesn't need to be limited here for the direct arrangement. There's an opportunity here. Whether it's a physical therapist, whether it's for mental health procedures anything in which an ongoing relationship with a specialist to direct healthcare arrangement would be beneficial. So were trying to make sure that the state law allows for and clearly says this is the technical piece.

This is not insurance because there's not a transfer risk is not like a health insurance company. It's just saying we need of contract.

Be very specific about what's included in it but have all of those benefits that people may be familiar with the drug primary care jock John Locke has written about so great in the past extended into specialty care. We are speaking with Josh Archambeault who is senior fellow at the foundation for government accountability tied into this in some respects is something that is supposed called telemedicine or telehealth where you working on on that yet.

She ties in very nicely because a lot of truck primary care doctors use telehealth currently is a way to increase access for people to be in contact with the provider without always having to come into the office so there is a in an age of coronavirus and other concerns that telehealth is really been pushed to the forefront and North Carolina doesn't have a lot on the books when it comes to that.

Telehealth is actually there's not even a deaf formal definition of what it is that the legislature has passed a bill both chambers of hospital and there in conference committee. But there's some opportunities here. One of the primary opportunities is to make sure that people can use telehealth across state lines so we can think of a number of situations where practically this would be helpful but say a parent moves home with you and other retired.

I have some health needs a move home they lived in another state and had providers there that were know them well know their health needs have a long-term relationship. They're currently not allowed to continue to see your parents and less they have a North Carolina medical license and so we want to say if that provider knows this patient well if they are in good standing in their home state, then they should be able to continue to see that patient through telehealth not for all their healthcare needs before where it's appropriate as we want to make sure that we've have a more flexible healthcare system to increase access in rural communities where there are simply not enough providers. Maybe somebody has diabetes center can all just there's not a lot of them so maybe it's an opportunity for somebody to connect with an endocrinologist who lives 50 miles away, or 3000 miles away.

Maybe they can be a good person for them to help better manage their diabetes which is can help the patient and help the person's family and the long-term. We touched on this a bit already, but one of the issues it's tied to these types of innovations is this idea of increasing medical price transparency what he working on on that front. Yeah, I think there's been a lot of conversation about this. There's some new federal rules of the Trump administration has put forward both for hospitals and insurance companies, you know, states play a big role in this to making sure that they pass laws that say that individuals should be able to see what the real prices ahead of time.

As Dr. I know is really enough that any other area of our industry and industries we we expect this time you don't go to the grocery store and don't see prices that you you actually know the price going to be and so number of states have passed laws and we encourage North Carolina to step forward in this regard as well and say that patients ahead of time should be able to see the real prices at their insurance company if their insured is going to pay their uninsured what the cash price will be and they should be able to be able to compare between providers so they can choose and just to put a fine point on this the price differences between parking your car in different parking spaces can be tens of thousands of dollars for the exact same procedure or service. I think it seems only fair as people are anxious about medical dad and bills that would let them know what something is going to cost at a time. There are a lot of different ideas that are floating about in the healthcare reform world as you work in North Carolina. Are you hearing a lot of receptiveness to this is the type of thing where you meet with legislators and policymakers, and they save maps is something we should look at or are many of these ideas ending up in the circular file. You know, I think there's a ton of interest because these legislators are going back home for Chamber of Commerce actresses alleged that this is the number one issue that they're hearing about its healthcare healthcare healthcare all day long and so everybody recognizes even if they disagree on. Perhaps some of the policy solutions to get there. We need reform and so there's been a lot of interest in maybe it's just a question of timing more than anything else, or how far the legislature feels like they're able to go in one session versus the next but were very optimistic about the reception that we have heard from legislators of we understand there's a problem on high healthcare costs, and I actually want to do what's right for my constituents on this issue we touched on several different things as you get ready for the general assembly coming back or thinking ahead to what might not get done this year. But what to look forward to in the next session after 2021. What are the what are the top priorities.

What's number one on were number one and number two on your list for North Carolina to do yet.

I think we talked about some of them today are it's really reducing uncertainty for patients with theirs.

As we've done lots of survey work and focus groups. This is where the American public as they want more certainty going forward so that certainly gets to price transparency and that certainly gets to the direct healthcare issue that we talked about the other one is. It is access or options do we. Are we able as patients to be able to see the right provider at the right time and that gets into some of the issues around telehealth, making sure that your family member gets sick with coronavirus and the expert for coronavirus is next door in the state next door that you have a way to be able to to touch base with them through telemedicine instead of having it be illegal for them to to see you as a patient because they don't have a license here. Josh Archambeault is senior fellow at the foundation for government accountability. Thanks much for joining us think some entrapment will have more on Carolina journal radio just a moment real influence.

You either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state. Our research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are.

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The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez. While it is a new gig for an old hand at higher education in North Carolina. Peter Hans has been elected unanimously by the UNC board of governors to service the new president of the UNC system ponds will leave his job as president of the state community college system to take the new opportunity.

So what should we expect for that we turn to Jenna Robinson. Janet is president of the Martin Center for academic renewal. That organization monitors and researches higher education policy in North Carolina. Jenna walked back to the shelf.

It's good to be here.so how would you describe Peter Hans Peter is knowledgeable, personable, experienced as you said he's old hand he's been around higher education circles for a very long time, and yet he knows the players and he knows the policies that are important. What attracted the board of governors to him.

Obviously, those are positive characteristics.

Rice mentioned but certainly the UNC system was doing a nationwide search as an oblique a lot of very talented, experienced people would have wanted this type of job. So what was special about Peter.

I think that what stands out to me about Peter is that he is a very easy person to work with. Not to say that he'll just go along with whatever but that I think they're looking for a more harmonious relationship over it UNC things been very tumultuous people have their bid of animosities and I think that Peter is the right person in this situation to deal with. He has a way of talking to people and engaging in discussion and discourse that I think it can be a very valuable skill going forward. He's actually served on the board of governors he was he was board chair for a long time and he was board chair when most of the other people on the board were in fact Democrats and so he has dealt with what could have been a discordant situation in the past and in my memory. At least it was pretty harmonious when Peter was board chair. You mentioned that the board of governors has been going through a tumultuous time. They've had several people leave the board. Jen is it fair to say that what is occurred is really a function of new blood on the board of governors that didn't want to just be a rubberstamp or we actually had some people who just didn't didn't want to get along and function as a board member. I think it was mostly what you said it first new blood on the board of governors that want to exercise their oversight in a meaningful way and that hasn't been characteristic of the board for a very long time they have been a rubberstamp that I think that what else happens.

They've had to deal with some very very contentious and she issues Silas Samet UNC comes to my mind immediately.

That issue is fraught sensitive people are and have heightened states of emotion over over that issue is.

I think that that lent itself to discord.

Tell us about Peter's accomplishments at the community college system, which he will leave as the CEO there to take the gig at this at the UNC system so Peter at the community college system has had to deal with something, or issues that he'll see it UNC one of those is very different in nature or the varied nature of the different community colleges there is, then, and there's a wide variety of quality in our community college system of the students that they attract of the problems that community college to contend with and having to deal with that diversity of institutions I think will be very good experience going into UNC and also having to deal with.

What does success look like work in the community college that something that hard to really wrap your hands around because community college students are coming in for a variety of reasons that defining success and measuring it and moving towards a measure of success for students is something that he worked on many colleges and again that's part of the strategic plan for UNC and how he'll see that again many different diverse campuses in the UNC system. There are more campuses in the community college, but very different organizations in the UNC system. How is he gonna reach out to all of them and essentially say look, I understand your unique characteristics and I want to work with you and I think he can in this one instance take a page out of Margaret spellings book and that is to go to each one in person. I don't know with COBIT how to do right now. Maybe he'll do it, we assume she's a former president of rightist exactly but I think going to campuses talking with those chancellors which he knows most of them already. So he starts from a better position than some past presidents and that he knows the system. He noticed characteristics already, but working with them to set the individual metrics for how they achieve the strategic plan that the system as a whole is looking towards and I think that having a set of diverse institutions. Although it may be harder to handle is better for the state because different universities can excel in different things and they don't have to all be no cookie-cutter universities that offer exactly the same thing all speaking of metrics and achievement. Tom he has a very interesting compensation package Carolina journal reporting that he make a base salary of $400,000 a year, but he has the potential to earn up to 600,000 additional dollars per year. Based on this incentive plan that seems to be built around several key metrics tell us about those. So the very first metric is graduation rates and that that's kind of the aerial view of what is the individual metrics are going to be set with the board of governors. So what that looks like when they're looking at whether he's meeting his goals hasn't been set yet so we don't know whether it's going to be an increase in graduation rates across the board, or meeting it in certain areas that that is still up in the air. They are to concentrate on transfer students and first-year students where again I think I have an advantage coming from the community college knowing with this transfers look like, but I think that's one that we don't we know the broad terms that we don't know the details yet on the other thing that there be looking at is education related spending of spending per degree how to get that down and he's mentioned that the community college system knows how to stretch a dollar and he wants to apply that to the UNC system. Also, he's going to be evaluated on issues of student loan debt tell us about that. I think that you know that's one where I'm not sure how much he's going to be able to affect graduation rates are the major determinant of whether a student can actually pay back their loans but how much they borrow is in large part, something that he can't control a lot of a lot of those variables that will be interesting to watch. I was so glad that you that you mentioned that because when I saw that listed as well, as them. One of the goals that he was happy that how the heck do you actually go into an individual students personal circumstances as to how they view borrowing how much money that they or their parents have saved her earned traits, college, etc. the only piece he can really affect is do they keep tuition low. All of the other parts out of his control. So that'll be interesting to watch as we look forward to his tenure. Jenna tell us a little bit about the the UNC system today. How would you evaluate it in terms of its challenges. I think the biggest challenges COBIT what will universities look like in the fall.

In terms of revenue and in terms of logistics and I think that those two both of the challenges are to be once we have to watch and that Peterson have to take on what have you back to talk a little bit more about this as we learn more specifics about how he will be evaluated.

Jenna Robinson is the president of the Martin Center for academic renewal thinking on all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for another edition of Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the John Locke to learn more about the John Locke foundation donations support programs like Carolina journal radio send email development John Locke call 1866 Jayla 166-553-4636 Carolina journal radio is the John line foundation, Carolina free-market think tank and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those did not merely reflect the station.

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