Holding Onto Love After the Loss of a Baby

Today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman how do you move forward after losing a child. You literally can shift a relationship overnight with new money. What would happen in turn if it would open up the emotional change invited him to pour out his emotions run higher grade which made me feel even that much more connected to freedom. He and I live.

Feel free welcome to Building Relationships with Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller the five love line family near you facing the loss of the child miscarried stillbirth during accidents one of the deepest valleys of marriage can today. Victor shares her story of the things you learn through this loss. If you go to our website of future resource used both holding on to love after you've lost a baby. "The 5 Love Languages" for grieving parents. I know you you choose book projects carefully, specially once you right with somebody else tells why you think this topic is clearly approved through the years as a pastor about so many people in my office who lost a child sometimes. So stillbirth sometimes miscarried.

Sometimes a young child or two, three, four years old accidentally or with the disease and as a matter fact, when I received our first copy of this book, read it again course, you know, we wrote it had to read the manuscript several times but I read it again set there and thought man if I'd had this book. Through the years as a pastor I would've given it to every single person in my office because it's so real and chose to write it with the candy because you have never experienced the loss of a child. My wife and I we have two children, but I wanted to write this book with someone who had, and candy of course is lost two children and has two children who are living now to having to do on earth. And God is used her to help so many other couples who are going through this experience and that's why I want to write with her and I just been so so pleased with the way the book is turned out, and though she shares her story and her walk, and how God is use all of this in her life, so I'm excited about the book and also excited about our interview today with candy same here.

Bulimia producer candy McVicker. She's an inspirational speaker and devoted advocate for families who are grieving the baby or child after experiencing the stillbirth of her daughter Grace. She and her husband Stephen founded the missing grace foundation, whose mission is to provide support resources and education for families and professional care providers when there's a loss of the baby, infertility, or adoption challenges. Candy is the executive director and she also serves in ministry alongside her husband at their church plant in Hawaii along with her two daughters. You can find out more at 5lovelanguages.com okay welcome to Building Relationships. I know that the way God has used you in this field of helping couples who have gone through the death of a child.

I know this is been a dream of yours for many years to write a book. How are you feeling now that the book has been written and is out there and available for people to prepare for chat here. Something about a baby now and then an excitement and it's really wonderful to finally have it here and the feedback has been really encouraging excited about having the story of grace your daughter. She's really why were here today. How far along are you in your pregnancy when she was born long so talk a little bit about the process that she went through you and your husband in those early stages. The first grandchild on my side of the baby while and painted and we are very excited and we had a very difficult pregnancy. Dell immediately had something called hyper and fast.

During the pregnancy. A lot of doctor visits and hospital visits and I ended up going in the last few weeks before she was born and 90 Same thing very much. Something doesn't seem right to show there were eight first-time mom just keep moving forward.

It's not the baby not the time the boy or girl. So we we just trusted their opinion was right. We were fine, but each day they had no worry and concern. Anton said that they called the unit which is really hard how that could be. Unfortunately the baby was going to have to be delivered stillborn and shocking and terrifying something that feels and we had to go to the hospital. We were induced and the long 24-hour process of labor Grace perfect healthy court issues that cause was the cut and she was born on December 20, 2000.

A lot of our listeners what you just described, because they walked a similar road. This book, of course, is written to them whether it was three years ago one month ago or 20 years ago when we have a child. We have a child that it's a part of who we are and is always a part of who we are. You and your husband did you all respond differently. Initially in terms of processing your grief about it with me. Initially we cried together. We tried to get present could be like me his desire for normalcy to return and to have some control over something in life because the car she couldn't control the outcome or protecting your daughter from the situation. He tried to garner that through working hard for us being a good provider taking care of me Interhome and I in the meantime, was emotional and wanting to keep verbally about all my feelings and what I was thinking in actually had insomnia, which is very common for grading. And I cannot sleep no matter what I tried and go to sleep so I would stare at him as he was resting peacefully and wonder how on earth can he sleep through this and he just needed to shut down emotionally and let his body rest we we began together very closely and began to separate and are way of dealing with grief so kindly craved more and more differently later in the program but looking back on those early days.

Is there anything you would have done differently now. What you actually do help people early and the hurt that I had to live through because I didn't now how to culture have a counselor there will be somebody to guide me in and held my hand through the process. We were very isolated and had to go much of it along without a lot of help initially and so we have lots of regrets. Looking back, there's things that we would like to do differently. We didn't have someone guiding us through how to decrease from the very time of meeting our daughter all the way into the years after there was there was a lot of things we could of done better or differently.

I'm the reason this is such a passion of our content. We can reach people early on we can help them not have the difficulties in your grief journey that we had to go through and they can go through without regret and remorse.

So for example I cannot spend time with the baby. She was stillborn and it was a foreign thing to me and I was scared and we hardly have any pictures. We have no live video we we were rushed along in the hospital to quickly turn her over for them to take her away which would be just more to the funeral home.

Now we know that that's actually not the best way to do things and so you spend more time with your baby. You get my pictures and video you have time to say your goodbyes to pray with and have family and friends meet them.

You have more memories created trout that precious window of time that you have and me. What is certainly love to have been tuned into "The 5 Love Languages" much earlier on our journey because once we did know about it.

It was extremely helpful and really change the trajectory for us in our marriage, and for the better of course. And so, yes, there's a lot of things I would love to share with people through this book that will be helpful early on in the grief journey to much of the love languages and known earlier in your journey, but in the process of discovery help you and your husband meet each other's need for love when you discover the love languages while I think it's pretty comical and we all figure out how we love the person you want to be loved and not the way they need desire to be loved and there is a breakdown in communication and a sense of feeling treasured and understood and not mine. Something that is of course is very common in relationship are the opposites are different than the other and so mine is active service would be my top one second runner-up would be quality time spent his first words of affirmation and his follow-up of the physical touch and of course we just Having all of our communication. You know I would serve him and I would give him my time and be present and he would try to just affirm the end of his good mom and he let me know he would say all the wonderful things and he would hold my hand and massage my back, and therefore meet and both of our love was very intentional and we meant that we are doing and we were doing it with integrity and and we are really trying to bless together selling them up and not meeting yet and so just started to be some resentment and frustrations and not feeling understood and so once they were tuned into the love languages and read the book and we took the quizzes and began to have a new revelation about how we should go about our relationships, letting each other in light of "The 5 Love Languages" interest radically shifted everything we just began to change the way we went about the day with each other and he just became the ultimate act of service. King, like all all over the place to just make me so cared for and loved. And I just like wow how cannot just change overnight, but he can't. You literally can shift a relationship overnight with a new mindset and Karen her grief as were so wounded and were hurting so patently you need as much buffer and it's much love in the mix of all of that as possible and so we were able to do that for each other in any I just realized he needed much more affirmation verbally. How proud he was of him like a father he has and all the things I noticed that he was doing for us and and just reaching out and touching him more often now. Just even walking past them in the kitchen giving him a hug from behind. He said gosh I feel so loved just thank you so much for that hug and you know and then what would happen in turn would open up the emotional tank inside him to pour out his feelings and emotions for entire grace which means that much more connected to him because he felt that freedom and security and my love to be able to express his grief me. It's amazing how the love language can change the whole emotional climate in relationship and when you're grieving for love by your spouse rather than ostracized by each other you know that we we wrote this book not only for grieving parents certainly voted for them but that we also noted to help those around them. Like the family, extended family and friends. People can sometimes in their efforts to help can sometimes insensitive things during this time talking a bit about that word are powerful and the ability to have life within them.

They can heal part, people can never fully understand. I think we don't even fully grasp sometimes. How much of a ripple effect words will have people that I meet with who share their grief story will go back 2030 years that one thing that that nurse that encourage them and help them and made them feel like they could get through this okay versus the person who said something hurtful and painful and they have never let that go.

That one comment that one word has stuck with him all these years. I'll never forget they say the moment they said… You can fill in the blank. As for what it is for you. You know if it was told to you by a parent or teacher or your spouse might words are powerful and so we know there's some things that traditionally are just not good saying we've included a list in the book of things we should just steer clear from and one of the things that trouble, and it is people say well it's all for you know it was God's well but what if that person doesn't really feel that and what if that's not truly the case, what if it wasn't meant for good and what a person does even believe in God, that's not helpful at that time he or she is it a better place, as if the place is a terrible place and not preferred.

And so it should better assert that and that's better. They're just it's just we should all be gone.

This is such a horrible place, no place them are thankful to welcome our children here and another one is well.

You have other children well which of your children would you say is insignificant and not as important and you can't find once you know and you want them there.

They are there part of your family. Another one is well at least you are that far along. And the moment they found out they were pregnant but maybe they began to love them and they wish they had been able to get further along. Another one is well. It's not perfect. You don't want, I can tell you for certain for certain that parents to have a down child or baby has an anomaly or a cleft lip pilot no different than their love for that child and many parents would say I would've taken them any limitation or issue that we would've had to deal with. I would have been so grateful to still have them and so perfection is in the eye of the beholder and that doesn't that's not a helpful comment and another one is you know well it all happen for a reason and it's such a platitude that that frustrates and irritates the grieving parent.

Now they just now all that's not helpful. Offer me something that's life-giving and so that's what we want to encourage in this book to let your words be full of life and with love and be honoring and be thoughtful and mindful so many things we say we say them because were uncomfortable in the silence we say them because we we just don't know what to say that we could quickly blurt something out without thinking it through. And if you can imagine yourself being told those words in the midst of something painful and traumatic.

Would it feel comforting what it feel loving and if you can't say yes to that and don't say sometimes silence is far better and we have a whole list of wonderful beautiful things you should say and can say that will help a family member. I'll give you just a couple.

I don't know what to say but I am so we are thinking of you and we are praying however you need us. We are here for you.

We love you guys come to this is not taken lightly and truly affect us. Please know were all deeply saddened by your incredible loss that the world will not be the same without them.

Here we all missed out it's not okay so there's there's a lot of beautiful things you can say and and I will say to sometimes my words. They're not a lot of words that there's very few select words and I often just in with someone I hold space I you just take time to listen to that let them share let them talk. To be honest, I often just cry with people you know Jesus left and I I did feel fake. One of the blessings we can give it our tears mean something weekday matter and if they calm, don't be embarrassed about that. Don't feel bad that you're weeping. My family think that's beautiful thing and people know that there is integrity behind your words and you know I mustered up and try to cry, but if it comes let it flow and we put your friend weep with your loved one other beautiful, powerful words that come through the tear points with the first of the book to read this book from beginning to and you might want to go to the chapter is a plus to do some sitting here thinking you know if our listeners are hearing this, and I know someone who's lost the baby. But the first separately will read this this'll helpful words and hurtful words helpful action collections because they will be a help, but let's face it, most of us if our friend goes through this, we want to be a hill is just that we don't always know how to help them what to say and think of this chapter are some great ideas on how to verbalize your concern about not verbalize your thoughts. Yeah, I do think that you can go to the chapter and just at that point that you're having questions at that point they are wondering how we navigate that there is a chapter in there for you that will help you know how to talk to your loved one how to be supportive of them how to understand what's going to their mind what they're thinking is one of the common things people say as I check well little bit of time to try you know it. It is an empathetic, thoughtful process to sit there and say I'm going to try to imagine just a little bit to dive into that pool with them and try to think about what it feel like to be in their shoes to live out all these different new situations. In light of their loss holidays look like what you special dates look like we we have to really think about what they can it be like for them when they come up on their babies. One year anniversary. What is it like on their baby 18 year anniversary in out for us. The calendar is a brief hearing is a stark reminder of all the days that they haven't been here with us. And so while your other children in if you have them, or your friends children are going on and reaching milestones your child not here to join in that glorious process you know I I was already thinking when I bought flowers for Grace's funeral. I left sobbing because it hit me.

I would not be buying flowers for her wedding. I would not be buying flowers for all the times leading up to that with graduations and special ceremonies just… Me and I love flowers.

I had a huge glorious array of flowers at my wedding and just as I laid the flowers at her grave. It just hit me so so strongly distanced forever if this is not temporal. This is like my life story now this is I'm living out the situation and she really doesn't get to be in my present my future and I'm missing out on something far greater than I think I'm even able to grasp at this moment. Parents have a really hard time when they had special dates and and you know you want them to celebrate with you. You want them to be excited with you when you have your celebrations for your children and and and and they will do so often, but with grief in their heart. There, they might not show it to you they might do it in the bathroom as they weeping come back out with a smile on their feet get in the car and fob all the way home after leaving your baby shower or your kids special event because they want to be there for you that they want to support you. But if you can. In the midst of that honor their journey and acknowledge that goes a long way. So if you can think what is their love language.

They love to be loved, and how in my present situation with a friend or loved one can ID something that honors the life of their their baby and bear story. So for example you know some suggested to people. Why don't you have a rose at the event that you go and get to them and and or you acknowledge this here today on this table.

We have this beautiful gift for all of you are. This angel figurine are this candlelit to remember our loved one who their babies not here today with us in the celebration in pre-parents will say to me that acknowledgment lists all meaningful and it just meant the world to us because they're sitting there thinking with a big knot in your chest, and a lump in her throat. You know I wish our child was part of, and they were hearing the story with us, and there being missed by us but we don't know if anyone else realizes that her even remembers and so there's a lot of beautiful things we can do to acknowledge and to support and to love them through all of that keeps us connected.

It keeps us in a place of good relationship and we are able to stay in a place where we feel safe at those people and we are able to keep that relationship strong.

And so you don't have to lose a friend over great great grief can actually make your friendships and your loving relationships. That stronger because those who support someone grief.

Both friendships go deep like there people will say that person must care for me the most loving things I would be anything for that friend II know that they are someone I can always count upon you were talking earlier last little assignment about friends helping members helping out remember a mother who said to me some time ago. She said you know most my baby was about six months, seven months afterwards I went to a baby shower for friend of mine was having a baby and she sucked it my composure while I was there held it together, but all the while I was thinking about my baby and she said the next day the person who put on the shower called me on the phone and said I want to thank you for being there at the shower. I know that had to be hard for you and she gave me a chance to go to pour out my heart sure with her. Yes I did struggle. The fact that she remembered and she was thinking about how I might be feeling meant so much to close going about it is that there were trying to foster in the book to help people by limiting your limiters to shift gears a bit. We we talk in the book about also taking a break from the grieving process.

What might that look like while I believe it possible to take a break and I think that men are actually better at what they seem to be able to compartmentalize it better than we can isolate for women and always at the forefront so strongly. And it's really hard to have our mind at rest in the midst of grief because we perseverate on these thoughts over and over and we don't get even a mental break, and I think man can say I network now I'm in work mode.

They literally have gotten a different compartment of their mind right and they're not. It's not the forefront. They're getting for their job and you're not even thinking about it and then it'll hit that mentally strong email. Maybe in the car on the way home or do they lock the door, but having a mental break and having time to rest in your grief is very important actually and that's why taking time to for example watch a movie and it's lighthearted and happy and you just give yourself permission because it it feels like an abandonment. Actually, if you stop thinking about them as a female mom I feel like so many of us moms and we talk about this. It feels almost cruel, suggest not be thinking about them. It feels dishonoring because what mother would forget about their child. You know you you're always thinking about them the next time you get a nurse them checking on your diaper, making sure they're safe as her sleeping. You know, just going on and just covering them everything your your day is about your baby and so then when all of a sudden you stop you from the look that you feel like I'm in shock. I have not thought about that you filled with guilt, but we need a mental break because grief is so intense. It's hard work to grieve and so getting away even just to get permission working to take a little vacation a little hiatus organics go somewhere pleasant and beautiful and pleasing car, our senses and just have a little time away together or alone if you need solitude and then fire that home it's it's literally while I do this activity while I journal or while I I'm listening to this music or watching this video, or having a friend over I'm going to put it on the shelf. I meant to give myself a little window time and have permission and you have to literally be given permission to have to tell parents it's okay to take a break and have a few hours or a day and give yourself a mental break and just not be in that state of fight or flight, and in constant fear and anxiety and worry and stress and give yourself that time so it's necessary.

It's good, it's beneficial and it's okay to do standing doing it because we do. We can only take so much of the intensity of the grease like in those brutal times can be extremely helpful, but we also talk in the book about writing grief, which we often do, and that is in the book we refer to that is the grief a leader. For example, we often would think well of childhood is at the age of 10, that's much worse than losing a baby at birth or miscarriage.

What was so dangerous for us to think along those lines. While we know in my ability and their power to grief lately. Say your grief is insignificant if not important, and by not validating your grief. They no longer feel safe to process, especially not with the person is verbalizing that but now they have a guilt complex for actually greeting and they need to grief still creates an inner conflict emotionally and mentally. And so we see that the phenomenon is very common in the support meeting and just to give one example. Like I have given in the book we we say that you're in a group we say this is a safe place degrees, but if you don't really define that there is a slippery slope that we go down and an example would be a mother. He says I just had a miscarriage. My baby was only eight weeks along and I wasn't that far along in and the person who had the stillbirth in the said loss in the group.

Of course there are lots of further along in a person says I can imagine what you guys are gone. True, it would've been so horrible to have had a stillbirth or to lose my baby just said and bear and bear even taking away their own right.

They're saying I guess I shouldn't even be here like my thing is so silly but and and now they felt really bad about it or the person who says let you know you guys just had a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy are you only had a stillbirth my baby was four when he tied now that person is silenced. In that moment and they now where that person stands and they feel like while I can't safely grieve with you. I can't share my my heart with you in my motion because I am grieving. How can I deny that I didn't want this baby. We were hopeful for this child. You know you don't know that person's journey or story, but we need to keep all the time. He said look I did. I did all of this to get pregnant. I mean, I went through infertility treatments. I went through doctors and I'm filming countless appointments and we finally got to the point we were pregnant and that baby was lost early on and that's a very painful journey.

So we we can't ever look at somebody and say this is how long you get to grief, but we do and so we need to stop it needs to change. This is this is something culturally that we can see in all different kinds of cultures. This is carried out because it's a learned behavior. It's it's a way of doing grief and it's not a healthy way of doing grief and so what happened to everybody knows why. Better not tell people about my early life because I know no one can validate it. No one can acknowledge it and so they suffer totally alone and isolated and that will always out on an add on other things that are hurtful and painful in life and thought the base of their pain and hurt. Is this brief.

That's not acknowledged and so we need to be very careful to not look at someone and say well you know your your last this far along in you know you really had a tragic circumstance of for you all allow you a year degrees, but after year, you better snap out of it and move on. But that's the mentality that is given to so many of us. Parents, we are literally feeling and knowing these people around us are thinking they have a date stamp on our grief. There is literally a time limit and then there's no more toleration, and no more willingness to listen to support or journey with that person anymore because they know they pass you Eve grease long you're still hurting and I won't tolerate it and so obviously that's really hurtful, but also we took this earlier.

Just a bit different wives grieving the compartmentalization consultant, which can be helpful as a part of the process, but all from the same) will say to their wives. Things like you just said that's been the year ended snap out of this. You need to get back with it. One of the husbands need to hear well most people that I know that hurtful things to me come out of a lack of knowledge they didn't understand what to say how to say it and why they are saying what they say to me because it's a learned behavior learned way of speaking about this topic and we need to understand a lot of times that there they're actually trying to say because they care about.

So for example if a year after baby dies, you're still in your pajamas every day and have it returned to work. You don't take care of yourself, your home, your other kids in your really depressed and you are not functional. That's not healthy either. And the people around you want to see you thrive and want to see you part of the land of the living and and still enjoying life at least an ending about apartheid and so if you're in a really bad place and people close to you are seeing that it's concerning an alarming they don't know what to do because they're terrified by the fact that you seem to be very stuck and so there's a fine line you have to walk between what is really just not healthy and we want to help someone to be healthier than if he really knows my wife is in a bad place in the comment that he's made. If he says you just need to move on obviously is not going to have the effect he hoped that well.

That will just isolate her even more and make her feel shame and embarrassment and feel this connection versus if he says I'm worried about you I love you and I want to live this life with you. I want to grieve and move forward with you in our grief and I feel like you're really stuck and I'm scared because I don't know is this is this is really dark road of depression and do we need to get help to need to talk to a counselor. Do we need to get me on some supplement for medication or something because now it's really gotten bad.

There's a difference between really bad and we can talk about what some of those things are versus just somebody who still sat you know you can be sad for years and years and years and it's okay and and you shouldn't take that away from somebody and eat you know if their function on their doing life and there's still in the game so to speak you. You shouldn't minimize their grief and tell them that they can't have it.

And so everyone has a right to their grief and as long as it not hurting themselves or others that makes sense to talk about a couple of things. What is the whole issue of layers of walls grieving through these different layers of loss actually just a word about the other kind, or her life just understood that the single layer upon layer. So, for example, as a child you lost someone close to you. A relative a very close friend and maybe never really dealt with that and you know how to process and now as a teenager than you you last good friend or a teacher or someone close to you again depending on how you process that now those two things is layered on top of each other and and that might be an unresolved grief in your life. It might be something that you've never really learned how to cope with them how to process now as an adult you lose babies as a child, your you're mentally going to touch back upon all of those other experiences and how you felt at that time in your life as a child that you feel supported. Did you feel safer security take away your sense of security and in your life that you feel validated that you feel like you.

You knew how to navigate this where people there for you and that and as you go through in touch upon each of the previous losses in your life, that's can assimilate into your current experience and a lot of people will wonder why they are grieving say what why can't I work through this. It seems like I really soccer. I feel like I'm going backwards.

And sometimes we have to go back and lock and say what have you been your other traumatic experiences in life and other grief that you've experienced, because it's all layer on top of the next layer and we have to sometimes go back to the original and the last in the previous one to figure out why we got stuck and how we can move forward hewing each of those past wounds and so you can also look at as an opportunity you open this backup and you say, let's actually officially deal with and address it and it will really help you move forward in your grief in this present situation of experience this is to utilize most of us experience more than one to their families go to good observation. I will talk to one other topic of lease and that is if you have other children when you lose a baby you help those children process their own grief because they were looking forward to having a new brother or sister really really hard for every parent, because the whole family is excited for this baby and these children often are dry and talking and speaking about this new member of their family while mommy is pregnant and kissing mom's belly and there's all kinds of celebrations being planned and all kinds of thoughts about what life changes and how it looks now there's a minivan. Now they're decorating a broom to share the room. There is all kinds of things and building in the family and the excitement and then once that baby is here.

If the baby dies as a child, or they die as a baby. All of that, of course, changes everything for that child and so there's this instant vulnerability felt by them. Confusion care. Often the children who lose a sibling. They struggled terribly, they can have night terrors they can start bedwetting again. They can become very physically violent and angry because this emotion that's pent up that they don't understand they don't know how to have a good outlet for it. They can become super busy and crazy as a way to just try to divert the attention off of the real deep emotion experiencing. They can become disruptive at school and and parents are often just their hurting so badly to now take care of the wounds in the hearts of their child is difficult, and then the question, when we have another why did they have to die. And why did this happen and I going to die you are you going to die and all of a sudden this this protective bubble they felt has been burst and they are in a new reality. And so it's very important to know how to give them the love that they need. So taking the profile for your children and having them understand their love languages and you understanding their loved language as is a very important piece to the family healing together family to grieve together well will stay together well and stay strong, and this can be very binding and it can be beautiful. You can actually have such incredible deep rich experience together. As you will love each other well through the grief journey so you have to go the extra mile with your kids to make himself safe and to make them feel secure and to make them feel the love that you need as well so you're gonna take extra energy and time into letting them with their loved language and sometimes that looks really different, with kids like a joke that I tell parents as he got to use humor, so let's say the kids acting out being difficult prior to the loss.

You might've really disciplined harshly for their behavior, and now you're going to look at it very differently, and your goodness say you don't want to come to dinner and join us for the family meal while going around and you you come to their room with a big picnic basket and a blanket and you say what work were going to join you for dinner tonight in your bedroom and well you know we didn't want to purchase charts like what you know we just wanted differently because behavior is just being difficult and really exactly heard they need to be understood. The hard things I really appreciate is in the book. Also, we will talk about is how God leads you to take your grief and what you're going through to reach out and help so many other people through your nonprofit missing grace and hoping that there's gonna be a lot of parents are going to so you know I can turn something positive in the door. It doesn't bring back much, but it does allow me a way of honoring William by helping other people, so thanks for being with us today. Thanks for all of your work on this book. I really do believe it's going to help not only parents who lost a child but is going to help the posters is going to help counselors is going to help anyone who is ministering to other people through the grief of losing a child. Thanks for being with us to write that you were just grateful for the chance to share with the world now what an hour of hope and grace as well. The hard euro program Google website. Five love languages.com see your featured resource holding on the love lost a baby. Five love languages five love next week.

Your questions and comments. And if you'd like to ask a question, listener line at 18624 Gary that's 186-6424 Gary thank you today to our production team Janice Todd Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is reduction of radio in Chicago in association with Moody publishers ministry of Moody Bible and thanks for listening