Vertical Marriage

Dave thought he had a great marriage but and saw things differently hear their story today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman I stop looking to Jesus my Savior to fill me up with with what really matters in life you go vertical, find your life through your relationship with Christ.

You can commit your marriage and be a giver rather than a taker welcome to building Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times seller. "The 5 Love Languages" today. My marital struggles and revealed the one change will join us today from the studios of life radio talk about your new book vertical marriage just in time for Valentine's Day. I don't want the website 51.com five love languages.

This is a story that you've heard a lot of counseling seminars. One spouse thinks pretty much fine. The others on the brink.

Remember a couple of forced marriage quiz like the queers and children for the summer marriage of spring marriage, a fall marriage or winter marriage and the husband said Germany should. I took the queers on it so we run a summer marriage my wife took the queers initially were in a winter marriage, which is also during the winter marriage license winter it is winter that's good I think. I guess you're going to shed some light on that as well.

Today Dave and Ann Wilson served together at Kensington Community Church. It's a national multi-campus church that hosts more than 14,000 attendees every weekend for the past 25 years they've been featured speakers at family lives weekend. Remember the Detroit area where Davis served as the Detroit Lions chaplain for 33 years they've written our featured resources vertical marriage. The one secret that will change your marriage written along with John driver you find out more about it at the website.

Five love languages.com welcome to Building Relationships where you are glad to be here and we are in a winter marriage are we going out anymore. Even if you Gary thank you Dave.

Let's go back to that fatal night on your 10th anniversary wanted to think about the marriage and how are the two of you doing at that point. Well, as you just said I I actually thought her marriage was great. We are celebrating 10 years. We are just getting ready to start our church. I was working with the Detroit Lions in ministry and that was going well. Although we were winning football games. We were winning men and women to Christ off the fee. I guess you could say I was a winter chaplain to because we didn't win much but great things were happening our ministry and I thought the same thing is true about her marriage, so I thought to be really fun to go out and really really celebrate 10 years of marriage and a great way when you had a different idea write a different view of the marriage. I did have a different view. We had to little boys.

At that time that were foreign to sell. Life was crazy. Dave was traveling with a lion starting this church he was gone all the time and when we got married we really had this vision of we wanted candy use desperately wanted to have this great ministry together. Kind of felt like Dave was leaving me behind and I also felt like we were raising our kids together, but you're never here and so I was really frustrated and in my frustration I think I got angry and resentful and down.

We were fighting a lot. So when our 10 year anniversary came up and Dave had this great plan for this night out.

I was a little skeptical. I was like, really. It's kind of late because you haven't put been putting any effort into it at all. That's kind of where I was in the marriage Bill so very well and told you that she didn't have feelings for you. Like she had before he responded well in the moments I didn't at all see it coming. I mean, we had just gone out. You talk about "The 5 Love Languages" . I think I did all five true in one evening. It was a remarkable night yes so you know we had a great meal and the I had roses delivered to the table one at a time to talk about each of the 10 years. Anyway it was a very romantic evening and I would've told you on a scale 1 to 10 are marriages like a 10 it's really doing well and so as were driving home. We parked in the parking lot where we are about to start this church at this middle school and I just to be honest, thought we would in the night making out in the car you know going parking and that was sort of my surprise planned and and that's when she said as I tried to kiss her and she pulled away. I asked what was wrong and she said I've lost my feelings for you in again.

I was just shocked I was completely I had no idea. And so then she explained why she shared some of things your insured today. Just that I've been gone and my schedule and you know we were married, and even teaching on marriage, but we weren't intimate. I don't mean it on a sexual way just in our marriage.

It was just I was teaching it. I wasn't live in it and I didn't know it until that night.

And so it initially I responded like I was going to prove her wrong that I have been home.

I actually reached in the back seat to grab my calendar. Can you believe that to say, look, I'll show you you think about God I've been home a lot and here's the amazing thing that happened for me is when I was region in the backseat.

I I since the Holy Spirit who lives in my soul and every believer soul whispered. It was more like a shout and and he said don't touch your calendar don't defend yourself so I didn't. I just listened in the other word I heard from him was shut up. It was after I shut up and listen and let and share what was really going on in our heart we do tend to get defensive. No way. When a spouse or something like that to us.

We will prove it's about right is not right. It's not that way when I told Dave what I was feeling when I said I had no feelings.

I knew in my heart I thought oh here we got work and end up in a fight because this is our cycle I would share what I feel he would defend himself. He would prove to me that I was wrong and then it would kind of now go nowhere. I can tell Dave that night that I didn't have any feelings. I thought this is the wrong time. He just put all this energy and money into a great night and so I did want to bring it out but he kept pressing me what's going on. I feel like you're really pulling back in your pulling away right now and so when I sent date.

I have gotten nothing. I got no feelings I don't even and here's what I said when he said tell me more.

I said I started out so angry, and my anger turned to bitterness and then my bitterness turned to resentment and now I don't care I don't care that you're gone. I don't care that year were not doing well. I am so I'm so cold inside and I really don't have much hope and I thought he was in a get so defensive any Listening and then this was the most shocking thing to me is he pulled the seat back of the Honda accord which was not a small card and then he put the steering wheel out and he got on his knees and he started to pray out loud and I was shocked yet what happened with big areas when and was sharing her heart. I heard God say one more thing. It was repent and what was really interesting is I knew in one word from God what repent, meant it on the preacher I use the word repent and it was different. You repent means that annoy you change your her change her mind to go a different direction and that's what God was saying, but what he was really communicating to me in one word was if you think that you're going to solve this marriage problem on a horizontal basis.

Just between you and and it'll never be solved there. That's not even the problem.

The problem is vertical in the church. Your relationship with me and I knew it all. That meant I had. I was lukewarm. I mean I was running around doing all this ministry stuff.

I was speaking and I was if I was reading the Bible was only to get a sermon to give to the Detroit Lions or some church somewhere and I was not intimate with God in my relation but sorta lost my first love. And it's interesting in the book of Revelation.

That's what Jesus says to the church would lost their first love.

Repent and do the things you did at first. So I knew right then that before I we could even talk about our marriage I needed to get right with God, and that's why when Dan finished I said hey we need to talk but I need to do something right now. You don't need to do this, but I do and I just felt like I needed. Repent right then and there in the car and I don't always get on my knees to pray, but I felt like my posture needed be one of full submission and surrender. And that's why push the seat back in that little car and somehow turned around in the steering wheel was in my back and I just prayed out loud.

I just forgot I need to repent.

I've lost my first love.

I'm running around doing things for you, but I'm not with you and I I'm asking you to help me be the husband that my wife longs for in the dead. My kids need and I'm asking you to save our marriage and men so I turned answer. Okay, now you're talking. I look she's on her knees on her side of the car which was so interesting because if you would've asked me what's the problem with your marriage. I reset it's my husband is the problem that when Dave was praying for and in the Scripture that came to my mind was a gentle answer turns away wrath, when he began to pray. My heart just kind of melted and the Holy Spirit started speaking to me and convicting me and I felt like the Holy Spirit, said to me, and Wilson you have been trying to get all of your needs met through Dave and I never made him or equip him to fill all of your needs. That's my job. And what I've realized what I had put so much focus on Dave and all the things that he was doing wrong that I had stopped looking to Jesus my Savior to fill me up with with what really matters in life and so I got on my knees the same night, same time, I prayed like Lord, I have just been missing.

I've taken my eyes off you like put them on. Dave and I my repent to put you back as the master controller of my life and I surrender everything to you and that's where things really started to change, not overnight. Mind you, but that's where it started. Dave love the story that you and Intel but I want to go since on moat, Panama husband want to go to your story. I hear a lot of men say. I told my wife that I was sorry. I told her that it and I told God I was sorry and now she them forgive me you didn't repent.

In order to get her to change her thought about you. You repented because you saw that you're going in the wrong direction right. Yeah, my repentance was really just a revelation that I think is true of our marriage. At that moment, and still isn't true of every marriage and it's simply that if you the secret that we talk about the book is that if you think you're going to find life and joy and happiness from your spouse or from an amount of money or some pleasure your never really got to be satisfied and in that moment when and said she lost her feelings and why I was I was sitting there realizing I've been trying to find my life and happiness for my job from my ministry. I've been almost a leaving and in the background and running after things to try and find life and in that one word when Jesus spoke to me. Repent. I realized all the things I've been preach and I'm not live until another people to find life in Jesus. And I'm not find in life there and I'm actually trying to find it outside of our marriage and and was trying to find it in me and so vertical marriage really is simple. It simply means when you go vertical and find your life through a relationship with Christ, where the creator God actually does give you life in a deeper joy than you'll ever find anywhere on this planet, then you can turn combat your marriage and be a giver rather than a taker because you're trying to get something from your spouse, you should make me happy should be treated me better and even if they do, it never going to satisfy when you find life in Christ you now combat your marriage, it changes everything. It's like I've found my life. I found my joy. Now I want to serve and give as Christ commands us to owner love my wife as Christ loved the church like you can't do that unless you go vertical and find your life in your power to happiness from Christ alone and that's powerful. I can assure you that a lot of our listeners have been where you are and maybe some of them are there now you said earlier that after those prayers that the two of you prayed in repentance to God. Things did begin the change but not immediately. What did happen. How did the process go from there.

Was interesting.

I was I was paying can't bring my feelings back. I want to feel something for Dave again because my heart is really hardened and so we sat down he went on a date night and that's something that had slips. Dave and I when we first got married date night was really important to us and we were going on dates but we were. I think they were so exhausted and anyone with little kids here exhausted.

You just kind of surviving and sell leading cited to become more intentional with our conversations on our date nights and here's one of the things Dave did that.

I thought this was so brave and humble of him we would go on a date and he would say all right on a scale of 1 to 10. Tell me how you think.

Forgive me because Gary when we went out on that date for our 10 year anniversary. I would've said were a .5. He was saying right and I said where .5 and so he said like how how do you feel he was even that question asked me how are you doing that would make my heart melt because of him driving and pursuing all the things in his career he was focusing on me, which was so sweet and he was humble and he would say, okay, if that's your number. What you think it would take for us to get a number higher. That's so humble. Trust me, I was scared to ask a question. I really almost didn't want to ask it, but I knew again if I get to serve her. She's going to know better than I do. How were really doing and should also know better than I do how we can do better and so is a sense to say I want to serve you.

I want to learn from you.

I want us to be a tent. I want us to be as close to attend as we can.

How do we get there so I knew that I needed a weekly at least a weekly date night to check in and say okay how we do and how we really really doing and let's be honest and let's do the work to get better and we started doing was praying together and we, that's something else else that you started to slip over time and to be honest, I started becoming resentful days tired and he would fall asleep and here's what was going on in my mind all when you're falling asleep in your supposed to be the spiritual leader if you're not then pray I'm not can I pray that's a win for Satan right there who wants to destroy relationships, and after that point. I thought if God brings it to my mind, pray, pray, whether Dave's asleep or he's awake I just can't put my hand on St. God for him and began asking God our personal boxes. Jesus really started to be reignited because we were desperate we were desperate for our marriage to beat better and we were desperate for his power and his words and his voice and the word to become alive in our lives again. So I think those are a few of the things that we started to do that really helped. And we actually have found out from people around the country as they read the book that when they just started the first thing a printed it together daily. Again, it could be a five minute prayer one minute per that one move changes a lot in your marriage and so so for us is where it starts. It's a you know, pray daily date weekly and then we try to retreat annually, which is get away once a year and work on our marriage to talk about praying together think it's impossible to come to God together and not begin to affect your behavior). As I listen to what you said already. It's obvious to me. God cares about marriage cares about you to spoke to you and let you see yourself this lease as you responded yes sir for all of us have forgotten what progress I had one woman call me and she said and I want you know we read your book and my husband took my hand and he said I want to get on our knees together, and I want to surrender our relationship to God together and she said he had never prayed or initiated prayer or had never prayed out loud with her. She said I sobbed, I saw because it was the most intimate thing we had ever done together as a couple of the subtitle of the book is the one secret that will change your marriage. You Artie talked a bit about this book that one secret uptake. It is a vertical marriage just explained in further.

What do you mean by vertical marriage. Well when I thought about that night. Later you know the night in our 10 year anniversary.

What first thing I thought is nobody's ever to hear the story because you know is really a dark moment in our marriage and yet now, as we've, you know, move 30 years past at night of realize and heard thousands of times that many marriages are in the same place there really struggling in their thinking the same thing. We thought you get married and you think my spouse is it she's gonna he's gonna bring me all the happiness I want. And then when they don't bring you the happiness which could happen in the first year marriage, or five, but at some point you're sort of disappointed in many people think why married the wrong spouse that's a problem you know if I demurred him or write her that I be happy and what we realize at night. What vertical marriage means is you did marry the wrong spouse you're looking in the wrong place and so when you go vertical and look to Jesus look to God is our Creator and our Savior and our our Lord the only one who can truly bring us to happiness were looking for everywhere else are actually looking for love in the wrong places.

When you find it in Christ by going vertical. That's what vertical means, then it changes the horizontal changes your marriage so really it's that simple. It's go vertical, find life in Christ and it will change your marriage and actually it will change everything.

So if our heart is beating with the heart of God, then were going to have a servant attitude toward each other end of the marriage is enriched as a byproduct of our relationship with God that what you're saying yeah really isn't yet obvious MSN it's a perfect thing that happens every minute of every day, but as I find my true power and life through relationship with Christ, which is easy to say it's a whole new thing to live out it empowers me in a way I'll never find their power in myself and in one of the biggest changes that happens in any person's life when they convert to Christ is selfishness is transformed into selflessness and again I'm not saying it's easier instantaneously, but you know my home life was about, how can and serve me.

How can in my needs and then as I went vertical.

It's like I always thought about her serving me. It's about me serving Christ by serving her so that changes everything. You get to spouses doing that or even one spouse doing that that will bring you happiness your marriage will never find anywhere else that I would say that that is hard to do on a continual basis all the time because life is hard. We have life circumstances that are difficult but that's always the goal that we put our eyes on Jesus, that he so when it tells us that so what are some practical ways that we do to use your phrase.

Keep her arousal. Jesus, I know for me.

Besides, I can honestly I have to be in the Bible have to read it and since this happened interesting. I got to the place where I thought I need to be in the Bible every day whether my kids are little whether their big and so one of the things I do now. As I read through the Bible every single year. I do the one year Bible plan and sometimes I'm reading it quickly.

Sometimes I'm listening to it. If I'm in the car and I'm busy but there's something about that anchors my soul that puts my eyes in the right place that Jesus is my fulfiller. Also, I think another thing that's really important is to have friendships. People that you're accountable to have had women's groups had the same friends for 25 years on the Wednesday of every week. I have two friends that we fast and pray for each other on Wednesday and it's one person's turn, and we will pray for my friend Michelle will pray for her all day and fast for her all day and social center prayer request that's so good to have other people alongside you that are praying that know what that knows you knows what's going on going to church me knows are some things for me practically, that have been really good. You know, one thing that is really brought life to my soul is worship, singing worship and listening and playing, and that's a married couple can do together as well but often for obviously for an eye that happens in a community called the church and you know those women that Ann's doing life with him doing life with their husbands. And though those couples have been with us and we been with them for a couple decades and that community.

Every couple needs. You need people sharpening you and encouraging you and with you in the valley as well. When you go through the dark times the gold to try and do that alone is is not healthy and that's why God gave us the community called the church the say you've got to find community to help you go vertical. You know what it says I'm listening to your story David, and it's so heartening. I think a lot of people who are said to you think you know pastors and leaders of the church. They have it all together and we we're trying to aspire. Sometimes the pastors the leaders in front of us are going through the same struggles if not deeper struggles than the people in the pews.

So just you guys telling your story I think is is Reppert. If don't you think. Yes, the truth is we all struggle and it is easy to think people on a platform or on a radio show. You don't have it all together but the truth is man we all struggle. We all have struggles in our intermarriages and we've discovered really that is we've been honest and told people are struggle. It helps them, they realize while they're just like us and yet we try to point them to the victory.

So even when he and I do host a radio show or you know speak in our churches. I'm hoping that people sitting there and listening. Think want to really do think some hope, and they think.

While there, they struggle like us. But they have a victory in Christ that I'm not sure I understand and I want that so I hope both happens they go out. They are struggling but there's a victory that's real that's available to us to and it's all about this relationship with Christ.

And so I hope that it brings victory to their home. They really really really like the way you are so honest in the book we were taught reflecting a little bit before the break with in the book you actually record statement you made to each other that were not helping statements. For example bill you said this once to her. I just told God that I would rather be doing the be married to you as early when you said that. I mean, I can let we can laugh now, but that was in like like the seventh or eighth month of our marriage so year one we just said moved to Nebraska to be the chaplain for the Nebraska corn huskers and yet we were just struggling so bad every day conflicts.

We didn't know how to resolve conflict when you that I have it but we did not resolve it. And so "The 5 Love Languages" hadn't come out yeah yeah fairy yeah, here is your fault you for the whole and honestly I mean it was just a moment of desperation where I got on my knees at three in the morning because I couldn't sleep and and I had come downstairs to stabilizing the pants I go downstairs and I see him on his knees with his Bible on the couch and he's reading and I'm thinking oh, at least he's reading his Bible.

Then I said hey what what he did and he said I'm just sitting here reading Paul's words to live is Christ and to die is gain.

And I just told God that I would rather be dead than to be married to you. Gary says that in his new flight back. I should've I should've never been that honest. That's where I was soon asking you go over here here's the thing we can laugh now, but think about this. In that moment there was no joy there was a little laughter and the reason were laughing now is because we found that Christ really does save a marriage, you can do that and never give up. Never quit. You never know what God can do, and not only is he saving our marriage but is using it to help save others so that's that's that's a miracle that's only God and we did.

I had told Dave our first year of marriage that marrying him was the biggest mistake of my life and that wasn't good either.

And I think, but we we kind of committed to each other after that first year of wounding one another with our words sticks to hold onto those in need in and they really do hurt, but we committed to one another that we would not use words to harm one another in the future and I think they found that I think we have when you all sure that things like that in the book and this is one reason why think this book is going to help so many people is because people identify with this only they been there.

Maybe they didn't say you like to the way you said it with faith and those feelings and I'm listening to you all, reflecting a mold marriage and that's why we were in the first year of our marriage and let's talk a little bit, but you mention conflicts. We know that all couples have conflicts because were human and we think differently.

We feel differently what you learned about how to solve conflicts how to work through conflicts in a positive way. One of the first things that we mentioned in the section in the book on conflicts is I didn't know until I got married that I was a withdrawer of conflict. I didn't like conflict. I sort of walked away literally would walk out of the room when a conflict happened because I just didn't know what to do with it.

I grew up in a home where mom and there were alcoholics. They ended up in divorce. I saw conflict in our home and it ended with divorce so I just sort of sort of thought, you avoid conflict. You know you don't step into it and so we get married and were in conflicts and I literally would walk out of the room and I grew up in a family where we dealt with conflict. Sometimes it was intense sometimes we would yell and so when our first fight occurred in Dave walk out of the room I was shocked and so I yell at him.

Another great thing she said to me. Listen to this. Come back here and fight me like a man that didn't go over very well, but our conflict styles were very different. I wanted to attack and resolve the conflict and I would use my words to attack where Dave would just pull away, which then I would end up poking him are trying to get him to say anything because he would shut down. So I think our family origin of what our style was what we saw in our homes. I think that it's good to talk about that and why we handle conflict, the way we do like understanding that background of the impact of our patterns that we grew up in is important. You will sometimes like to say we are certainly influenced by the environment in which we grew up with. Thank God were not controlled with it that's that's the positive side of the posted message in your book here about the whole thing about going to bed angry a lot of couples that this is a standard thing with Phil.

What juncture did you all decide. Well we as we mentioned, you know, we would we would be in conflicts and fight into the wee hours of the morning. I'm into three in the morning and the reason we did this is we are told before we got married you cannot go to bed angry. Ephesians 426. We were trying to resolve it and I be laying there trying to stay awake, and I would be so mad because he would fall asleep thank you don't even care about our relationship. Now you're disobeying God by falling asleep before and because were not resolving our conflict. The sun goes down, so it hit me one night.

Think it was in first couple years, our marriage, you know, here we are three in the morning were not getting anywhere. I'm trying to stay awake or we keep fighting that I said you are just maybe that's how whatever's means you notices this.

Do not let the sun go down on your anger. I said the sun went down hours ago so we have till tomorrow night's sunset. So go to sleep with Doug about this tomorrow and long story short we did realize that verse isn't literal. It's a verse it says deal with your conflict consistently and quickly. But a lot of times it was safe. So what are you thinking what you feel and I say I don't really know. Then she get mad and then I realize over time. I didn't know but when I woke up the next morning had some time and even set with God for mom is like a I do know now why I was angry.

Can we talk and so I'm assuming I'm not saying you should wait a day or week, but there are times when it's probably helpful to actually go to bed and talk about it tomorrow and I was scared to have time go by because Dave was withdrawing from conflict anyway and I thought a day returning to a week returning to two weeks and then we would never talk about it but we really did kinda give ourselves a timeframe that within 24 hours we would come back and talk about it because I was a click processor.

I knew instantly what I felt and thought sometimes it would take Dave 24 hours and then a lightbulb would go on that he wouldn't really understand what he's feeling and honestly I usually will tell couples when you are in this event where you are so mad and angry sometimes it's good to let those feelings simmer down to talk to got a little bit about what's going on because we say some really harsh and mean things in the midst of our anger absolutely was moved to another topic.

There are chapters in the book that there was a sexual part of marriage. Let's talk. Are you sure very well. It's in the Bible and it's in your book. So let's talk water from some of the things you share in your conferences and in the book. Well I tell you, there's a lot you know that we we put a whole section in the book just because we thought if you go talk about vertical marriage, you need to talk about God's perspective on this area as well and you know over decades and really centuries the church hasn't done a great job of saying here's God's heart on sex, especially for a married couple that God actually loves that a married couple would make love and be intimate sexually.

That's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. You know, I grew up in a church where you never heard anything about sex and if you did, it was that it's wrong and dirty and if you do it you go balls which I am involved, so we just thought you'd override a book on marriage let's let's put God's perspective in there and to be really honest and it's in the book.

You know there's a there's the dark side of the sexual temptation and struggle in the world we live in. Even with pornography and that is something I that I had struggle with early in our marriage and I write a chapter about how to win in that area as a man and how that affects your marriage as well so were real, honest, again in that section of the book as well try to give God's heart for for sexual intimacy for a married couple but also the struggles that are inherent in our world and how to avoid them, which is so important in today's culture we we often and our program will have calls. Folks call and leave questions online.

In particular, may not always, but often man who will so you know my wife is just not interested or not as interested as in physical intimacy of what you say about that. I have a story for that. There is one day Dave was at home working on a sermon in his office upstairs, and we had a four and two-year-old and I was pregnant with the third and he was one of those rough mornings with two little boys and I had my laundry basket with laundry in it. I had my sweatpants on had no makeup on. I had the two-year-old in the basket walking to the laundry room that the four-year-old and I looked into Dave in the office and his feet were propped up his Bible in his lap coming here for second I said what he sent me sitting here and I'm just wondering did you think about our sex life all day long. Are you kidding me right now. This is like at such a thinking we are so different because I think for a woman and every woman is like this, but for me the relationship part is so important to the physical part of our intimacy and I think sometimes what can happen for at least when your kids are little or your busy or stressed.

Life is just running hard. I think that can happen is is the physical intimacy if it's only that, especially for woman and you feel like your husband's not pursuing human relationship can be really hard because then we feel like you're an object all you want to do is have sex and I'm not as important as I think for Dave and I discussing how important affection still was that he was still pursuing me. Having a relationship with me and it wasn't just about sex.

I never forget we are at a conference and we are listening to the great Howard Hendricks and his wife Jeannie who is a Dallas prof at seminary and down they were in their mid-80s and someone had the audacity to ask Howard Howard what is sex life with your sex life like in your 80s and were all flabbergasted. Who would ask in this questioning without a beat without a second speed. Howard said our sex life is better than it's ever been and where I'll hike any said you know those of you have been married 15 years or younger you think that sex is all about the physical. He said the older you get, you realize that sex sexual intimacy is really a union of the soul and I think Dave and I stopped right where we were at that point that we need to understand God's viewpoint of intimacy, physical intimacy in marriage. It was really stunning. But alas, I remember talking about the sexual part of the marriage course, the same of the book is vertical. The vertical marriage or relationship with God. How does that impact the sexual aspect of marriage.

Great question.

I I honestly had no idea early in our marriage and sort of discovered is and mentioned earlier that you know the relationship is so critical to off woman's heart you know I would. You know early in our marriage.

Our kids were little, I would desire sex with and more than she did with me and I would know we had conflicts about this some a lot of couples don't want to talk about this, but we really had some conflict, some like I don't think you're interested and she was trying to tell me what she said earlier that there sexual issue for her was about our relationship. How are we doing and there's a part of me is like who cares. Our five let's just make love. You know, and I had to realize that when I go vertical and I become a servant of Christ to my wife, it's not about me, even in the bedroom. It's not about me it's about how I love her how I server and so I knew I had to learn to listen okay what you mean. It's about the relationship and she said earlier but I started to learn. Oh, it's about affection, not sexual touch, but actually nonsexual touch. Are we holding hands, are we kissing my hugging her in my being just gentle with her physically, and you know what Gary honestly no I wasn't I really wasn't. It was like no wonder she's not interested. I'm not even gentle with my words with her and so all of that. The relational part is so critical to the woman on the Senate is important to men, but I found that my wife needed that that was like foreplay, you know, as we talk as we communicate, as I touch her in a nonsexual way as we go out on dates and I always joke I say you don't go on a date and wants to talk, not talk talk about our relations, our relationship again, I'm not doing that because I know or hope that it will end up in the bedroom but I do know because I love her and I want to serve her and I want to honor her and yes does that have an effect in the bedroom. Yes there it's like she has a desire for me and I actually found out she told me this early in our marriage. When you walk with God. It's like a turn on for me.

If that's the way it works on to become the apostle Paul, what are you talking about, but that was what she's commuting. When Dave initiates prayer he's praying for our boys when he's leading them spiritually or having conversation that is so attractive, so attractive to me as a woman I think for many women, and even one of the things dates done since our boys were born in our oldest is just turned 34. He has fasted and prayed far boys every Friday until dinner for their wives for their future for their spiritual locks for their jobs for their school. That to me is so attractive. I want to follow him wherever he goes. When he was with Jesus. I think most Christian wives have the same sense they don't always verbalize it. But if their husbands are really not walking with God. There's little evidence of that, you know it's it's painful to her harder when she sees him taking that kind of walk with God.

It drawls her to heal you to speak at the marriage conferences around the country and you been doing that for several years can a weekend away like that really make a difference in the marriage of stitch pretty severely broken. I would heartily answer yes I mean no conference retreat psycho save your marriage. Although it's catalytic and it can be big part of saving your marriage and so yeah we do our vertical marriage houses run the country. We speak for family life. Weekend remembers it well. Couples walk up to us and say you know the first time we been away together in 20 years. That's good writer like no that's not good to me. I'm glad you're here, but you need to do some like this regularly anything that you put time and energy and effort into is going to get better and so if you're in trouble or even if you have a good marriage get away.

Spend 48 hours 24 hours 36 hours working on the most critical rulership in your in your life, and that your marriage and that's the best thing you can do for your children. By the way you feel bad leaving for the weekend.

No, leave them for the week and you're gonna come back a better husband wife better mom and dad and they're going to copy what you do as they grow up and become adults. We've literally seen our our sons do that with in their marriages. But yes, that's where God meets you changes you and I can that can save a legacy and we have been doing it for 30 years with family life weekend to remember and are only been doing it for many years to we would take the time to do that on a weekend. If we weren't seeing marriages change and honestly God is the one that changes marriages, but when you get in a place where you're hearing God for your hearing truth when you hearing the word. It really does transform a marriage but don't hand but don't forget this and we say this at every conference. What you do after is what's critical is go to the retreat to go to conference and good things happen, but if you don't continue that it's going to go right back to where it was and so when you go home need to jump in when one of the great things family life just released the vertical marriage small group five-week study and so you can go through the material in a small group with other couples that is going to change a merchant and that's what you need to do. You need to continue that. And that's where God meets you and then you become not only change marriage become some way God uses to change other Murchison well, thank you for being with us to this is been so encouraging that our listeners have heard this benefit with your example and then your words have.

It was our pleasure. Thank you. Thanks, David and Wilson vertical marriage.

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