Thriving in Love and Money

Do you argue with your spouse about your finances today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman new insights on love and money under. Almost an automatic opening that comes along with an opportunity to share what's going on in your care about don't know just for your tears out there is the most difficult spouse about finance to avoid the subject altogether such an area, then we have some help you today on Building Relationships. Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" shall be filled with joy this day. She and her husband Jeff written her future resource title thriving in love and money five game changing insights about your relationship your money and five love languages.com Chapman heard the questions posed each month on or do Gary broadcast this topic of marriage and money is a contentious research indicates that disagreements over money by drouth the major problem in the marriages. Another couple of courses found that to be true, but I think because money is an integral part of life and we are humans and we have different ideas about money in different experiences in the past. It's a common conflict area so I really feel like that our discussion will be very helpful to your listeners will shunt.

He told Hahn is a Harvard trained social researcher popular speaker and best-selling author, you know her from books like for women only. The surprising secrets of highly happy marriages and others. Relationship findings have been featured in the New York Times, Focus on the Family Cosmo, the today show. She and her husband Jeff have two children. They live in Atlanta and are featured resource is their book thriving in love and money you find out more at 5lovelanguages.com will shunt it. Welcome back to Building Relationships you we talked before about some of your projects and how each one is sparked by something that interest you greatly talk about the spark that stirred this book thriving in love and money in the real God wanted been in all candor about you you want any more of these research-based because the model had changed so much research is expected says we weren't sure how we were going to pay for it like a lord you're getting this call from a company called Trident that serves Christians with financial planning or banking or whatever and I said look, we we really want to start an initiative to help people in their marriages around because everybody knows that this is such a big issue marriage.

We don't think it has to be how you feel that making your next research project, and oh by the way funding sponsoring blank answer to prayer and I'm terrified that we were not on the same page about money like the Lord, going already to confront this issue that we really never been on the same page about for years of so told just a bit about the differences that you all experience through the years the solicitor. This topic yeah we all be that a relationship research project we've always incorporated what we learned in Torah so much about each other area of money was something we never studied before… Setting before which is kinda weird because it's a big issue and I think one of the reasons is we fight about money. We just avoided it. Technically we shared bank accounts. We did money together, but realistically lived separate moneywise. Okay you pay these bills I pay these bills and let the favor on the spender. There was a lot of conflict in defensiveness and we just don't talk about it was really where we were when this project started dead and recognizing me a van. What are the reasons for that because that's how we felt really called to do like not project on how you have a better budget because people have done that really well resources out there about that. But, for it went much deeper than that. It was much more how do we have a great marriage around many and really setting with those factors are based on the research what percent of couples follow the model you mentioned some talk about.

Well, it turns out I know the answer to that big national survey or in this case, surveys, and it turned out, 77% of us can't talk about money well 2010 and so those of you who are listening to this in the 23%. The rest of us kinda think your mutants very very common like 77% of couples apparently many all the time. Although some people do like a big like overt issue for many it really that we avoid. We can't do money separately.

Maybe if even know so far as you have your bank account overhearing your money and I have my bank account over here in my money. You know what we just long better when we don't try to do it together and now all of that is 7%. It's not about the money but he also said it's about money or how it makes you see illustration of the way. Well, one example when there is a kind of economic uncertainty. Many of us can understand.

Even though this is an issue. It turned out one of the factors we found there were these five sort of factors running surface and one of the examples of that is that men and women. Money does not tend to be gender related. But we found that there was this one area statistically that was gender related and two different sets of primary figures running underneath the surface. It's almost like the example is almost like they're two different class we fear of heights while maybe you don't.

But I do have a class something to die really ridiculous, but it just as a gut level while we try to stay away from the case very much how many makes us feel almost like we have two different moving large and are turns out that man can have this year like to be able to provide for the family very much there.

Class like if you look at the polling holds toward theatrical fall over and die and the family because I'm not enough.

I'm not enough of the provider.

So what you do when you have that fear and that's how money is making you feel if you try to back away from that and so a guy statistically the case. A guy will often okay.

I have to work at hundred hours, I was talking to the life of the policeman just recently like my has been taking every conceivable overtime hours that he can't right now to try to build up savings and such a time of economic uncertainty. But he's never home and when he is home he has a black following around the house if he so stressed well that pulls her towards her class fear which statistically for most women. Not all but most we are worried about the finances to like there there as well. Been feeling like this. Cliff is pulling at me for her. She's more like money okay but are we okay and we're walking around the black pot of doom over your head is my husband to answer that question is no know we are not okay and so she tries to stay away from her usually means for what and often doing things together. Spending time together getting takeout food didn't have a family dinner and during normal times going out to the movies doing something as a vacation.

Well guess what that makes him feel like he's getting pulled towards his badge unable to provide. So it turns out that our attempts to stay away from our fears can make our spouses fears worse and to be able to understand that is how money is making into of us feel what is going on underneath the surface so we can actually talk money is not the real issues.

Let's get to the heart of the matter you wrote about five key factors that impact couples and money in the first factor is that we have different values around money. Explain that to us.

Well it turned out something I think you I talked about over the years you notice these differences between people and it turns out that when it comes to money that we don't realize we are not valuing what our spouse we were different but make it to our heads that that means that this other person care is not something different maybe than I do. Recognizing that what they care about what matters to them is totally legitimate example is very assertive, kindly based on what's been going on in recent months in the economy and health and everything which is you know a lot of people sorted it when a time of great economic uncertainty, heads way all of the savers of the world because often there is someone who's favoring, maybe not as much of a favor or spender who is married to each other and all the same as the world feeling very vindicated right well I told you we should have in saving all that money in the savers often their value of a theory like we need to be building up a big savings account big retirement account. For example, we don't go out to eat we don't go to the movies. We don't go on vacation to the same degree will purchase these things to the same degree as you want.

My spouse is more of the spender and man. It would've been great if we had that extra $2000 back from vacation we took right like that. There's some even in the heart of some of the savers may be listening to this.

Well, that's one value good.

However, a different way of looking at it if if spender type more little bit more, was able to articulate it. They might say, well, you know, of course, being wise is money is important that the value to me as well.

But you know what that come to give us abundant life and also said that you know we can trust him to provide aid and that you know okay I have retirement that he wants us to have good things for us now and not just in 30 years. We retire the dinosaur bones money environments and never got to enjoy it. Like what happened this know we don't to retirement together. I want to enjoy life now those are two different values.

This is just one example.

There are many. But those are two different uses and is really really crucial for people to recognize that both of those are legitimate.

It's not that one is necessarily totally right.

The other is totally pond just different. You have to be able to see what matters here spouse as it can be unwise about something that's a different thing. But in general, recognizing and honoring that it's okay that they view things differently. You have to keep able to do in order to start the process of coming together around the same story. Maybe you've heard of the lady took her 40) override and drove him to crystal.

This is why are we here just because that's what you're saving for just on edge. Bring out your look to see what it's like to story what I hear is is its it's natural that we will have different values almost as one of the areas of normal human conflict between respect each other's ideas and see the value in each other's because there's always somebody either of them that were far more likely to find a resolution. Something that will work for us that if we simply are always the right was expected that my ways the right way for only started doing this project I started realizing 30 different values like properly.

I got don't articulate or you don't realize how I feel.

You told me that he finally came to grips with the fact that you have me in this area because I'm more the spender he's going to savor me. She just had a character flaw that a character flaw get asked to educate her. Not saying I don't have a character flaw will interesting. He was able to articulate this so crucial. When we were stuck at home with the coronavirus pandemic.

During the period of total lockdown able to articulate something and we were able to talk about something we have her would have been able to kind of talk about in a healthy way if we hadn't recognized what was under the surface if he was realized I did kind of resent that we went on this vacation or that we went out to eat. These times are that we would go to movies frequently or whatever because I was thinking manic of you that 20 bucks and that thousand dollars in the email we can use that now. If we block out most of the sources of income are very uncertain now for somebody with a authoring he was able articulate that and then I realized that your way of duty things together is what has brought us closer together as a family and during this period of being stuck at home. We like each other at the same way we get along. We are not some of the reason for that is because I was prioritizing stuff that would be bring us together as a family just happened across money, how much is that worth and so I don't need is right or wrong, but he was able to go okay see the value of her values.

Of course, in a time of economic uncertainty. I could definitely see the value absolutely so I'm sure a lot of our listeners are done with what were talking about because spender so everything is pretty pretty common in relationships and usually one mirrors the other so so the person would say okay want to do this, will try to see the value in most spouse's thing and I will respect their ideas how to get started in but do you have any ideas he had actually sat understand what's going on in your own heart and understand what it is you value and honestly not as obvious as it sounds, because spender savers easy to articulate, not necessarily always that simple. You have to understand with going on in your heart FI. We spent some time trying to identify with these different types of values are in this project so you can figure out all Daphne affect me all that is me. So you know what going on your heart. You understand and also what's going on in your spouses take each other's sodas into account only brings compassion and I'll and I'll give you an example of so when when our kids were little. This is a common example for people who have young children and not just in our house but in a lot of the interviews and surveys of where if you have a young child and let's just say that the night goes on in there feeling miserable and they had the fever and he gets to be late at night and the fever is kinda going on. It is very very common for one person of the spouse and I'll give you of the couple and I'll give you one guess as to which path is more likely where one spouse is much more likely go, we need to call the doctor and the other spouse is often the type that goes you know it's just the fever was given Tylenol enough we call the doctor and you know it's time to call and ask a question but the probably the same bring them into urgent care in the next 200 bucks and just given Tylenol. They call me in the morning like a very, very content dynamic and not recognizing that the value and this is often obviously the wife not always, but often the wife felt that the mom is going, but we don't know what's going on there could be something underneath its it's really important and it makes me feel better to take the kid to a doctor and he told it's okay to be told this is just a cold, fever, watch them carefully and you definitely call me in the morning. Don't worry, this doesn't look like meningitis. This doesn't look like something that's really urgent and 40840 a mom to be able to turn off that part of her concern is some concern that able to turn it off.

Is that worth hundred dollars to $200 for a lot of mom Saco yeah like even if money is tight that of concern to me and I'll for this is the way Jeff would go he would say children didn't go to the doctor, Dr. everyone goes right well okay, those are two different values solve resolving uncertainty and be able to turn off part of my brain and be worrying about this for the next eight hours. That is worth the money where his and is often enable a guy is a male brain thing is often able to sort of turn it off a little more easily because they statistically very unlikely that this is a big problem and those two values.

Neither of them is wrong or right, but wanted to think that Jeff told me that once he realized paying $200 for the Tylenol and the doctor to say call me in the morning he was paying $200 to put his wife's mind and make sure his baby was okay because guys care about their kids to just as much of an it was more about recognizing what we were actually paying for that. An example of understanding each other's values brings compassion rather than frustration. What about the spouses as well. Not to pursue most spouse's perspectives, but my spouse doesn't seem to want understand what you say to the person while realistically this is one of those areas where it is in your best interest to help them understand yours by this is gonna sound funny by working to understand what's in their heart and I working to understand what is it bothering them.

You may deeply deeply want deeply want your spouse to be willing to go. Yeah, of course, will pay the hundred or $200 to take the baby urgent care like that me just be something right now you every particle in your being is listening to the singlet. I wish my husband would understand that. But he doesn't. And how can I get into well okay maybe that'll come how that you take some time to try to understand what the under the surface of his heart and he is right now I am giving you an example of this is to be everybody but he's staring that Cliff's fear in the face am I enough to provide for the family.

Do I have what it takes to be able to keep my job in the midst of uncertainty and I on some potential watchlist with my boss where we haven't been getting along lately, and every fiber of my husband being is delighted by these questions where I think my husband is an amazing person is competent. Of course he's able and capable at work and people recognizes value.

Well, I feel that way is the wife that maybe I need to look and see if he really does have this question. Deep in his heart that he is enough when we actually go to him and say constantly about how it feels to be a guy right now. Talk to me that how it feels to worry about providing for the family really. At the same if you if you listen to their heart and don't worry so much about my heart but I do understand your I really want to well and when somebody feels understood, almost an automatic opening up instead of the closing down this opening up that comes along with an opportunity to share what's going on in years and have them care about because they don't feel like you just pushing and pushing for your interests. They recognize how much you care about their it sounds to me like you are saying believe the best about your spouse. No matter whether that's the way for the husband believe your best and move toward the end you will be able to communicate about the deeper things is, is that what I'm picking up definitely part of it, partly believing the best of them, rather than thinking that they're out to get you right like care about the baby don't care about what matters to me. Well, statistically, the chances of that are tiny. A small number of people were just jerks. The chances that you're married to someone who is just a jerk. Pretty low on most the time it's truly that their heart is just troubled by something different that troubles you and me just don't recognize that that is truly something in your heart.

So believe the best that they do care about you, but also you do have to go that next step, believing the best that they care about you is crucial, but understanding yourself and understanding your spouse enough that you can share. Here's how that makes a feeler here's within my heart. Or is this in your heart like the idea of do you providing for the family thing like you really honestly feel like you might not be enough because you're so competent and everyone you work in talk to me about why you feel that way all those things out with any other person and be able to dig out within yourself that helps the right word is helpful to educate the process of believing the best of the other person because now it's not just they care about me but now it's okay they care about me and here's why you're acting this way and here's the fear or the worry or the excitement or the expectation or the belief under the surface of why it helps to understand the why he was sensing is sure that there individuals are saying that Mike's instantly but we have to acknowledge the doesn't come natural to me by nature were thinking our perspective is the right perspective, just like my spouses like in the same thing you have to hear this and understand this before you ever who will even try doing this, but is powerful. What you're describing is powerful when you when you really save yourself unloaded behind their behavior. There's something there that's motivating that behavior and that attitude if I can express interest in them and really let them share the look and say oh okay I see that all right not know. Let me share my perspective, there's a there's a big thing about listening and asking questions and listening right. I'll give you a very personal example of where we unfortunately didn't know this in our own marriage. I said we were just not on the same page. Well, one of the examples of that and I can't believe the radio but remember if I told his example when we were together recently but I one very personal examples of this is that three years Janice wanted to go to Dave Ramsey together and I was like oh my gosh, you know, because our church is doing it and I think I am traveling so much and unite finding excuses to go and traveling evidence and deadlines. I just would be able to go all the time. Okay, those were those are reason you'll be sent just didn't want to go to Dave Ramsey with and if so, this is embarrassing but Jeff finally went alone because I would go and we started doing this research and we started understanding what was underneath the surface in his heart and my heart and this was one of the things I was able to articulate essentially I was eight I was thinking I Dave Ramsey with this man would come back from court or whatever the equivalent courses at your church right.

Some people might feel a thing. Like when I come back from this course put us on the equivalent of 500 cal a day diet eating franks and beans every day for the next half is for just the writing to be an all or nothing kind of guy you know we will go full speed ahead, we wouldn't have any joy in life and well once Schaff realized that that was what was underneath the surface of me being unwilling to engage because that's what a lot of also have someone is unwilling to engage in just realized it would've changed everything he would've been able to reach out to me on or that concern and say luck.

This is important to me that we got it Dave Ramsey that we figure out budgeting a little bit better whatever. But listen, I understand that you're worried that I'm to put us on one of our super strict no money will and I can have any money from wife and when I get to go on to the movies for three years or whatever like I understand that you're worried about and I promise you know I will honor your concerns to this as well. Hearing that would've opened me up to feel like I could trust and trust the process and that I had a voice to be able to say this matters to me, even though it doesn't matter to you and right there is kind of the prox of why we think it's so important that we try to work to understand what matters to the other person and what's going on surface with these values in a series because otherwise is no way you can talk about them and what we found in all of the research this whole project. The greatest obstacle to living a life of financial freedom, the greatest obstacle to tithing and giving a church that the greatest obstacle to putting together a workable budget. It's not a lack of technical knowledge fairly. It's not you have no ears any more than you save for that you know you have some big issue those things happen. The greatest obstacle is the inability of a husband and wife to sit around the kitchen table and talk about it after greatest obstacle and so we can't really talk about it. Well, unless we understand the stresses under the surface and honor that in each other to someone who is saying you really want us to be able to sit down and talk about finances and work through things and different things and so forth, but must spouses not interested but they don't talk about but they won't talk about what he said little. That was separate, so that example I scared of me right, it would have made all the difference in the world I would've felt like just was willing to understand me and willing to honor what mattered to me rather than just time he had his idea, plowing forward with what mattered to him and and it'll be and vice versa. For some couples you know where it's one person or the other is is wanting to talk about for various reasons, they eat the other person just isn't well the reason that they're not willing to talk about it is probably that they feel that you don't really care about what they care about that you're not honoring with a honor that you'd understand their fears understand the stuff that's really going on under the surface and honestly they probably can't even articulate what those things are. That's the reason for this whole project is to try to help people see this is me. Oh my goodness I finally have the words to be able to articulate to my spouse what matters and what you can go get it and reach out to the other person and say I see why I've sort of shut you down. It's not just you shut down. I shut you down. I take ownership of my pieces that and I'm in a try to understanding care about what you care about more… Listeners hearing all of this loosely get this book really don't get this book will read this book, but I know my spouse will read it what what approach can lead to well once I learned some of the weight we have developed a process for that exact believe we actually had two tools that we suggest the people. One is we have a self assessment or websites totally free live in love and money.com website and you can take the assessment and it's all about where I started, not where you starting with my spouse and get on the same page. Please where my starting and where are we starting like what in this area of love and money in the series of marriage and our finances. What is it that we most need to work on it again this is not this is technical by getting stuff, it's the relationship stuff has to come first so we know how to be able to talk about it and so that's the first thing I would suggest is takes five minutes.

It's super simple, but it's really robust underneath the surface thing is for people who spouse just you know that they wouldn't leave the buck you want. That is 100% fine because one of the other tools that we suggest is that you read the buck with a hand in hand and you highlight and you circle the staff that about you. You try to figure yourself out in a way that you never would've articulated before, like the concept of only and it is totally true. Like I feel like even though I'm probably good at my job, I never feel secure. Like I feel I can always get to be in my bosses watchlist. So I have to put in times of our diocesan tongue to face time I would've been able to articulate that to myself before so you make those notes about yourself. Then as you go through it. If your spouse really isn't an interest in participating. Try identify things like I think this is what my spouse is been feeling trying to tell me I just didn't realize that 78% of other people think this way too. It's not you highlight in the circle of those things gives you a starting point to be able to go to your spouse and point to the statistic in the bunker point to a sentence and go feel it is this what you've been trying to tell me suddenly opportunity for conversation person never felt safe before or just understand himself and asked maybe if they feel engaged by that and maybe baby willing to go to the book with their highlighter and highlight and circle the stuff that applies to them.

And this is how I feel this is only cost us totally is me and then what you can do. We call the London money exchange.

You can do is read each other's comments and suddenly you're getting a personalized tour. The other person's heart and the other person's mind when it comes to how they feel about money and all these different areas and once you have that personalized tour suddenly and visibly found for the vast majority of couples leaving are not talking about and growing closer comes naturally. You don't have to struggle anymore because you are absolutely 100% attuned to what is going on in her heart and mind and you see it and you go. Oh my goodness this is going on is what you're thinking is an act and suddenly the other person feels understood and is seen in your work Gary when someone feels understood, they just open up so much more what you described reading a book highlighting circling things you read about yourself. Love that idea. What is the opposite of what people do we read a book and highlight the part from a spouse for the need to see this poorly to see the protostar but put their name on hundred 30. The whole thing. Arroyo admits it's brilliant. If a spouse is willing to take this book even if the other spouse is not interested in doing exactly what you so you think they would like an open up conversation with their spouse because they're focusing on understand themselves and then getting ideas of questions like – their spouses.

This is a so you feel this destroyed little switch switch gears here in our last little bit you in jail for social researchers but you're also followers of Jesus. Why do you think Jesus talk so much about money and so often in the New Testament. Their perspective from the faith-based perspective and this is true, actually that talk about money more than any other single topic like why is that we kind of realized it is after doing the research upon a single this under the surface look we all now I think we've heard pastors talk about the fact that many really is a heart issue right like there's a reason why Jesus said Matthew six verse where your treasure is, there your heart, there your heart will be also.

And you can tell you care about my how you spend your money we've we've all seen that while the another wave that is how you shall show what you value. That's that sort of a couple who were signal to what you care about what you value the different ways that you use my illiterate spending or saving it on the different things you talk about.

So it really reveals the heart are we giving away tithing to show that we trust God. Well here's the thing that I think a lot of us don't necessarily recognize in this is, yeah. It's a hard issue reveals where your heart is also spears your heart how you choose to handle money and how you choose to interact with your spouse about this year's what you're going to be sort of feeling more and more and less and less in a classic example. That's really crucial to recognize it's actually one of the other five factors that we found that hunters is so many of us kind of instinctively view money subconsciously, but we view money is like your money and this is my money like your paycheck goes in your account. My paycheck goes into my account as opposed to its no longer you and me. We no longer your money and my money on our people go so far as we were talking earlier your your bank account. My bank account. You know, would you send me hundred $50 for the gas bill that's really institutionalizing kind. I don't want to be one in marriage and it's coming out how I handle money institutionalizing a lack of togetherness, where God is said that you were supposed to be into this make a lot of me. I know we separate our bank accounts, and where one ask yourself.

Have you ever pulled the Amazon package at the front step before your spouse even tried to. We do want to do what we wanted to what Jesus is getting kind of poke's finger is even the best marriage even where everybody handles money really really well and to seek other all of us.

Every single one of us has a desire to kinda go our own way and do what we wanted to. It's the temptation that God says we have to fight we have to really work on becoming one. You know what, there is no better time for that.

Then when we're in a time of economic uncertainty and you know maybe before he could come to get away with this is your money and this is my money your paycheck and my paycheck. We can't be two different people linking the money well now the time we have to come together now the time we have to be able to talk about it. We can't avoid it anymore and you went. That's a good thing.

The way God can use this time is a good question to ask is this the way we handle our money demonstrate the oneness of our marriage doesn't really indicate that we are still separate the part of us to separate you know, one of the things that Carolyn only went for one hour of premarital counseling before you got married and the only thing I remember the three of the poster said walls will give a suggestion about money. They said everything is in the part logos in the part all the bills and put all the part but each of you should have a little bit of money every week or every month you can do what you want to with his know how much depends on what's available and what is five dollars or what's $50 or whatever but little money.

Do what you want with so that neither of you has to go to the other inside economy. I have five dollars to go to so makes one of the parent and the other child while thought it was good of others. You can like that it's it's it's not that we have two separate accounts, and even that is more to do as you said earlier with attitude is really up to guilt, but the very heart of the reason I really really like this book is you're dealing with the relational issues about money not not the nitty-gritty technical stuff about money as you said, you have plenty of information out there about the world how to say one word to our listeners before we leave, what would you say.

Because I can do it really is so much simpler than you think and it so life-giving. What you really understand yourself and understand your spouse in these areas. Okay, now that's more than one word, but be encouraged as to words and I think I think that's what I want to leave people if you can do this. This conversation has been really good. This book was one of the scribes was like living with us to the delight. Thanks so much for having a little afraid of the subject of love and money. We hope this encouragement, time for you and your spouse to go to the website you'll see your featured resource by Justin Schonfeld on thriving in love and money five game changing insights about your relationship your money so you broadcast you know someone else here five love languages.com next week. We're hardwired to seek comfort usually here about embracing uncomfortable in one before we conclude a big thank you to our production team and Janice Todd. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman's production radio Chicago in association with publishers a ministry in the Bible and thanks for listening