Fight for Love - Rosie Makinney

If you're has been addicted to pornography. Don't miss today's Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is not about just what nothing is you have to replace it with something postman setting of reading important function in your life is been helping comfortable singing welcome to Building Relationships.

Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" today Rosie McKinney battle plan why their marriage important and because of the subject matter. Today's conversation is sent deals with an adult top affecting children, so we wanted to give that caution our featured resource@ 5lovelanguages.com might again. You can find it@ 5lovelanguages.com Gary that words flight says it all. Because this is a huge struggle to marriage.

Chris, you are exactly right.

Talk with their spouses been involved in, and I am super super excited about this conversation because I believe that many wives and husbands are going for help in our conversation in the book that were going to be discussed. Let me introduce our guest Rosie McKinney is a writer or speaker in podcast or 10 years ago entered the fight against her husband's compulsive porn use through her faithful and uncompromising stance and his repentance, counseling and group work there marriage is now porn free. There's now a thriving recovery community in California supervised by her husband Mark, a certified sexual addiction therapist. Rosie is the founder of fight for love ministries and you can find out more about that and are featured resource@ 5lovelanguages.com again. Five love languages.com Rosie welcome to Building Relationships.

Thank you so much. Great excited to be the very beginning of our program. Tell us your story how did you become involved in this battle against pornography addiction.

I have two stories because I have been through this twice, once before I became a Christian and once off.so I think it's important that you get the whole paycheck because all the details of my story different from whites is exactly the same. The realization of what works and what doesn't works is exactly the same back to the first relationship. So yes, this is before I was a Christian and I discovered that the person I was with his longtime relationship walls using pornography and it was sedately devastating. It really was such I had a physical shock. I like what I do to ask 24 to I do it was such a shock. I was tightly blindsided and I tried everything I tried to compete with that.

I tried to ignore it. I tried to provide an environment where he felt Lupton catapult that he would need to do it and nothing what nothing what he refused to admit it was a problem even twisted around and somehow make it my fault like I wasn't good enough because of all the lies you hang in the media and the culture that she porn is healthy. Complex.

It's beneficial to relationships it's empowering and writing for women, even I was so confused I didn't know what to do and I was trying my best to fix and nothing worked and he just got West and West West eventually that relationship fell apart. Now we fast forward said I become a Christian. This amazing experience meet is to become my husband. He's been a pasta and he's a really great guy to end up with him and then he took because I'm telling him about my past relationships. He admits that this is been a struggle for him and the cost naïvely, I thought wow his a guy who is admitting it is a guy who said he is struggle. He admits it was a problem. He's dealt with it isn't going to be a problem and so I went on my merry way and we got married thinking everything is gonna be fine. It will sort itself out because he is on board and he said that it's not a problem.

Little did I know that this doesn't go away when you get married. This is an inherent problem that started way before he met me and it was nothing to do with me so very soon. Even on honeymoon, it became apparent that this be a huge issue in marriage. This was affecting him inside the bedroom. This is affecting him outside the bedroom and suddenly I had all the old pleadings from the pulse relationship of how traumatic this walls to be in a relationship where someone is being controlled by this on outside false, and I was just outside the wound, and I do believe it was a heavy spread inside me that just rose up and went enough. I cannot do this. I cannot do this again. I can't get around that merry-go-round again. I know that nothing works, and I just I just sent this from boundary.

I said you can have me, you cannot have both. And I Know I did. This is actually the exact right thing to do.

I did it by accident I did at desperation because I don't been through this little understanding that setting boundaries is the very thing that you need to do my proxy is an issue in your marriage.

So that's how this became my Jenny and then going forward and my husband got you know he recovered I recovered.

We recovered he went on to retrain as assessed by sexual addiction therapist.

I went on to help wives and it just became such a omission of mine to get this information out to whites that yes you have to fight your marriage.

We have to find in the right way because the normal way women and men get into recovery is when they reach that point of crisis normally comes after years of desperate attempts and self sabotaging ways to fix this on that bike. I will this waste I did in the first relationship by competing and ignoring and turning a blind eye and forgetting unconditionally and being more graceful and being sexual, and just doing everything it exhausting, devastating and traumatic when really you just need to set boundaries. My whole heart my passion my ministry and all the women who I work with. We just want to tell women how to fight why they need to fight and that it is possible to be in porn free marriages. It is possible to be in marriage is that you never even dreamed possible but you do have to know how to fight. Rosie, you talk about setting those boundaries, like the way you put it intrusively, or you can choose porn, but not both. What about the wife who does that. She verbalizes that the husband says choose porn what you should that's that's a great question because that is the reality because if the guys addicted. He's not thinking straight unit with all the neurological studies that show how his brain has actually been hijacked by this supernormal stimulus and they did that that unit they are in bondage. Their insight and they choose porn, and even when they say no I'm choosing you they still slip back. It's not a question of willpower is not a question of if they love you enough. There they have been hijacked need help to stop this so if if the guy outright chooses porn then you need to drill that phone line in the sand unit.

Pornography is going to progressively destroy our intimacy and authenticity will wreck our love.

You cannot have an intimate relationship with pornography. They are not compatible. It just doesn't work so you need to set some boundaries but guy he says no I want you keep slipping back that's a different that's a different issue that said something you can work with because even if he keeps slipping back.

You set your boundaries and bisecting your boundaries. You will be impacting his behavior because he's now acting to live with consequences that he wasn't experiencing before. That's really key and think so your book. I think your heart is you want to help wives not just walk away themselves with the study of the Bible as long as the husband is willing to work with her absolutely and whites never really just walk away. Normally that silly, crushed and devastated. Not a case of wives in this nothing of fighting wives are working so hard I mean you we have a support group to speak out on a daily basis of how hot they have tried for years to make one duplicate all from wives at least initially blamed themselves yet absolutely that they didn't. In a study that said 75% of wives at some point believe that it's that fault. This is such a devastating lie because it goes straight to your heart to straight to your identity as as a woman that somehow you know Tina, you are inadequate and satellite. Even the women who written that the porn films themselves. They say that they cannot compete with that partners porn addiction even they can't compete. It's not about trying to emulate all compete with the women that by saying what I doing. It's a completely separate experience. Rosie, I have to ask the question because I listen to Dr. Gary Chapman say this for years and years and years, and he said over and over and over again. You can't change your spouse. You can't change your spouse.

You're not saying that a wife who has a husband with a porn addiction can change her spouse, you're saying that you can be you can fight to influence him, but he needs to want to change.

Is that true or false. Like your nearly that you're tightly Neli that absolutely right. You cannot fix your husband's porn addiction doesn't matter what you do. You cannot cure it, you cannot control it and you sent me didn't cause it. Your other question about he has to be willing to change well know that has to be something in the relationship that he really has about and that's normally the wife that motivates them to change something that he doesn't want to lose because what one in this porn addiction you actually want to do your truck.

It is medicating something. It is effective.

It has been a really powerful tool in the way that you cope with life so far. You don't want to give up. So it's not a case of I want to give up porn it's that I don't want to wreck my life. I think that's an important differentiation because it just has to be willing to do whatever it takes. If he still not thinking what I really do still want to do porn. I want to give it up that's okay that will come but when you're an addict you you you predisposed your your new really wired to crave the stimulus so because I think sometimes guys can get stuck like I really want to get this up is not good enough reason to not try to give it up because those feelings will lessen and always going to be driving in the front seat in the trunk unit but they won't be driving you so so I just wanted to give hope to guys who are like Jim I don't want to get this up, but I do want to save my marriage because I do want to get up and they don't want to get out doesn't make sense except what I hear you saying also is that if the wife is loving to him. He's got something to lose, the more loving she is, the more he's got to lose notably to know the thing is about love. This is why wife in a pickle. And I think if I am gentle, nonconfrontational, loving, sexually available, I will create an environment where he doesn't want to do it. Now this doesn't work is just like if you will husband was addicted to crystal or heroin you would say one just a loving environment that want to stop. It doesn't work like that. You need to set up boundaries you need to set this very clear guidelines.

If you do this. This will happen.

I need to feel the consequences said the way you fight in the way you love is tough love is that tough love is not love that we once again we want to be sympathetic. We want to be supportive. We want to feel close to her husband's we want to instantly forgive them and be on my side. Part of this journey is distance and it's feeling counsel from your husband because you will have nothing to do the tough love that he can't do for himself yet because his brain is not working correctly you have to do those decisions for him and and blessing experience those consequences.

Once you will understand that it really is a brain disease just like any other addiction. Then you start to approach it with that tough love attitude also removes any feelings that I'm somehow responsible for quite empowering for the wife because she understands her role now like a whole lot tough love that motivates the change this. One of the statistics about pornography among Christian man watch the depth of the problem. We are very fortunate that in 2016 Josh McDowell ministries apartment with Anna and they corrected us intestate very in-depth study called upon phenomenon spent like $300,000 and really getting the data that we need to be him to address this problem and they found out that 79% of Christian men who attend evangelical church regularly using porn while he said that 55% of married Christian men look upon at least monthly morning 10 looks upon at least daily. Over half of marriages.

It's massive. What will you say to those who so well you know versus man being man, no big deal yeah yeah really.

Do you know that mending ministers boys being boys that Jesus was fully man was he lusting after other women and using pornography is not what it means to be a man.

This is not what it means to be a man. This is this is a temptation and my husband doesn't do porn anymore many many men in our recovery community. Deborah Capone anymore then then they all felt the pit in my eyes at being a man they have integrity and honesty and courage and bravery and that willing to that willing to shed at vulnerabilities that willing to walk through difficult struck struggles what it means to be a man not to medicate your pain in your feelings.

Yes, everybody is visually stimulated. That's how we wired God created us, you know, for sex.

He he, you know, in a very specific way, with certain parameters ran because he knew what the way that we were designed we can get really bent out of shape when we stop misusing our sexuality and when we stop putting in these supernormal stimulus. It's like porn hi Jack, the way that with wiring that she hijacked the way that we be great to be designed for when designed to be able to imagine ourselves with hundreds of partners in one sitting. When you're watching your body is physiologically responding you really were that designed designed it in a pickle. When we got outside how we were designed to use the word project. Porn drags the brain talk talk about that further safety in our brain that this primitive reward circuitry that produces dopamine and cocktail.

Other feel-good chemicals every time we do something that theoretically furthers our survival. So when we do an activity like eating or having sex. We are biologically rewarded and this is what motivates us to repeat the behavior. The trouble is, it doesn't always report the right things.

It can be hijacked as upset by counterfeit substitutes. Now when you watch porn. Your brain is tricked into pumping out the same feel-good cocktail would when single physically engaging with a real mate. However, if you were having a real romantic encounter.

Eventually you would feel satisfied that the natural belt, built-in switch, the natural pleasant pleasures like food and sex. Dopamine stops being produced is the thing with Internet porn berries no switch dopamine just keeps on coming. This is why you can literally pinch the days when you need to keep dopamine endlessly searching is click on something you something more stimulating on the key here is novelty surprise in one session of porn site you can click on the potential mating partners and Fletcher brain dopamine that is no way anyone woman can compete with that experience actually been hijacked and the broiler actually be healed on the effects of the poor, yes, yes here's the good news.

The brain is near a plastic totally can rewire we can renew our minds and I'm so glad you asked that question because this is why it's worth fighting for. I could husband now that I didn't even know existed that he didn't even know existed because this was an issue that developed when he was attending so he know I did the potential of what he could achieve and how he could feel the relationships that he could have while he was being enslaved to this horrific addiction. There is tremendous potential for rewiring AzaSite. It's not always going to be that thorn in your side so you can have to be careful and you know, can you put yourself in and see situations that you can be free of that it will no longer be driving you think your listeners would say what you just swear gives hope to like sometimes wise for your brother.

There is no it's it's never, never change is one of the biggest lies of the devil, because he is not even the problem is the solution to a deeper problem that needs addressing in your husband but also in your marriage that's an intimacy disorder head. He's developed a coping mechanism that prevented him from being authentic, which is preventing you guys from actually developing proper authentic vulnerability and intimacy. You cannot beat that when someone is hiding and medicating and most often lying about the secret life that's going on and also the wife is not often being authentic because she's so confused and she's trying and you've just got this.

Everybody is hiding their true selves. What recovery gets you is it forces you into learning how to be truly honest with one another and yourselves glorious thing. This is why all the women on my team can't wait to tell their stories because they just want to shatter that this is not just about the same old marriage you've got, minus the corn because that space that you went with the marriage anyway completely new marriages and so excited and hopeful and they just wanted they just want to shatter because we designed intimacy with designed to be naked emotionally, physically, spiritually in all aspects know if he gets in the way that I see proxy to extend the reason I'm doing this is really strange, once you approach it like that like this is the thing. This is the cancer that has full system really look at what's going on in our marriage and there are brilliant programs out that there are support networks that will help you Jenny. Along this path and get some white you didn't even imagine was possible. That's exciting and offers real hope. Talk about them for a moment the devastation that oftentimes takes place in marriages and families regarding porn absolutely and I'm glad you brought that up because quite often because women are just trying to cope with what is going on and they are thinking that they can control it and that they are somehow responsible. That's so preoccupied with trying to fix it by dieting and try new things and trying to stuff their feelings down and be more forgiving and just basically just not be authentic. They don't actually realize that that the damage that it's doing to themselves and being with someone who is not betraying you but deceiving you about how they train you is incredibly damaging and traumatizing and they have done studies now proven why the symptoms the physical manifestations of why trauma is exactly the same as veterans is the same PTSD than traumatic because you actually feel like going crazy and quite often, the guys actually turned around, and slightly they say I got a problem if I call problem is that she you've got a problem with all this is your fault because you know this you nag me all anyone would understand why I do this and the whites think I'm going crazy here and they don't trust their intuitions and it is so devastating and so part of the recovery for the wife is actually working through natural before she can even think about forgiving or trusting again. She's actually got to work through just how damaged she has been because I use the analogy of you both in a car. He crashes the car it really doesn't matter who's Chris Chicago both in it and you have been injured. You need you need to seek help. You need to find people who can help you heal and recover the pornography often lead to having affairs with other women or is that not know.

I think the statistic is it raises it like 300% because I don't proxy diction is progressive always escalates.

Because when you're addicted to something become tolerant.

We understand how this works with alcohol old hard drugs that whatever you're taking loses its effectiveness. You have to get hotter or stronger in the same thing happens with no faith in the way that you, your dosage is you either increase the duration of time using it. All you got something strong something more know something more to build something dark and interacting with somebody online seeing somebody online doesn't mean necessarily that going to the real person and many many many fanatics do not. That's not talked about arousal template and they don't go that it does increase the likelihood or if there's a parent listening to know that there soon.

Our daughter is involved in pornography will produce later. I'm so glad the second daughter, we thank you for saying that because, yet this is a massive growing problem among skills as well.

I would say You had to fight the new drug. They are an amazing organization that all make it so easy for you to start to have those difficult difficult conversations. And if you've got younger kids I'd say I have you had to protect young minds that is a fantastic podcast called media savvy moms there were all these resources that want to equip you and empower you to be able to take the steps because it's not a case of if your children say this is a question of when they got to see it and it doesn't matter if your kid is in a great student with lots of activities and friends and is very sociable and makes good decisions and the rest of their life. All teams of vulnerable to pornography. If you think that you know if you have reason to believe that they are struggling with pornography.

That is something that hiding you need to educate yourself festival and you really need to think about how you can approach this because your most important tool in this is open communication. Yes, there are things you can do it you can you can externally filter them. You can educate them to create an internal filter within their brains by using the resources like minds and fight the new drug but the third thing is these open channels of communication.

They need to be able to come to you and ask questions, they need to come and confess what I've seen they need to know that you understand you get sick you had struggles of your own and that there are ways that you can work on this together you can help them because you just need to validate that this is a real struggle. It's everywhere that dealing with stuff that we did not have to deal with and they don't need any judgment they really need you to come alongside them and say I totally understand why your curious is totally natural and normal doing this.

However, this is going to be really detrimental to your future. This is gonna stop you from having this relationship you want to have so we can work together to come up with a plan. Resources really go through so the family safety plans and technological advice to help you protect your kids the best, but it really is teaching that is most important and I would say that if this is a struggling your marriage and you deal with it. You are better equipped than anybody else to deal with your children and actually the children of the people in our recovery community warriors that little fighters that replicating the ring testimonies at age 12, page 16 H 18 because this is an open table conversation. This is what we talk about around the dinner table and they say we are so grateful that we can talk about this. None of the friends talk about you upgrading, empowering, and equipping them. So if you feel like I, I, pasting this my marriage. This is too big.

This is too scary to think about your kids to think about you Rosie. Let's say that there is a husband listening right now who has said to his wife or his saying to the radio. Yeah, I know this a problem but I'm not addicted. I don't want to do that anymore, but I'm not a Dick did what you say to that man, I'd say. Have you tried to stop. I think that would be the best indicator trying stop and see if you can and if you can. Great.

And if you can't you can I need help because you cannot do this on your own. You really can't. And the reason you can't do this on your own is going back to the fact that is an intimacy disorder is not about just what abode you have to replace it with something. Postman setting a really important function in your life is been helping you medicate less uncomfortable feelings and deal with the stress in your life deal with things in your life deal with anything in your life where you brings been belied so you need to place something you replace it with his healthy intimacy with other guys, this is what makes all the difference. Yes, the therapist is very, very, very important and can really make a difference, but you need to develop healthy intimate relationships with other guys how to be authentic and vulnerable and then you transfer those skills into your marriage is what you want and also integrate she's learning how to be challenged how to challenge how to set boundaries how to validate her and instincts. All those good skills then you bring them back together so you're talking about like a support group for for the husband after he's been to therapy Elizabeth follow-up in his openness with other men who are also struggling.

I would say that it needs to be the same time, the model or my husband does, and a lot of therapists do is yet to see a therapist but also you got weekly groups where you are developing relationships with those guys and during the week you are making calls to those guys and you are taking calls from you guys because the way you get to face is by walking in the light that say that's the magic bullet so when you feel tempted you call somebody and you express all those horrible feelings like I'm really mad.

I really had my wife right now I'm really fed up with my boss.

I really can't cope.

I'm depressed. I'm but just somebody somehow that takes away the pressure and you may accept you max out. However, you then ring back up and got up I just acted out walking in the light, and they say good job sharing that enjoying 60 but the very act of just walking in the light weakens bondage and that's what you learn so that you are NASA helpless. You are never yes you may be blindsided by lust.

But there's always someone to cool even in the middle of the night.

You can cook. You can leave a message on someone's phone if you can't get hold of somebody is always somebody to call you an F on your on your own lies needs to be broken like I can't do this. I can't do this. I have tried so many times I have tried so hard and nothing works and it's like have you tried walking hundred percent light with other guys guys and they said yeah my wife told me that this behavior was unreasonable yes, but it wasn't until I sat in a group of guys and they went hey they listened and suddenly it made sense. Just that's just how it works as much as we want to believe that we can somehow get our guys to understand how much is hurting us the doing is wrong.

Quite often they come yet that comes, that does come, but I'm not not in the beginning but guessing that we have some wives listing to the who are saying in there. I don't know my husband's involved in porn, but I got this feeling that is also always look for to find out if her husband is moving in the direction that's a stupid question. There are red flags inside the bedroom and outside the bedroom and if photography is an issue in your marriage. You know something's off in the bedroom set guys go one of two ways.

Either they become hypersexual wanting more frequent sex trying to pressure you into doing pornographic acts that they might have seen in this coercion going on and you feel pressured, uncomfortable all the way that they gave us they become sexually avoidant.

They withdrawal they have conditioned their brain to only be aroused by pornography. So they're ignoring that wife sexually states Hank. I'm so, so common and you know when wives began a support group and they can finally confess that she that hasn't touched them for years. Women go oh yeah me to make it really such a powerful moment of breaking the shaman as I'm grateful I'm hearing to allow me to say this because I want to break that shame if you husband is sexually avoiding you know you his brain has been hijacked, there is hope he can rewire and that is when when the poem starts to drain out of the brain when they start to sober up. That attraction comes back and they said they can be aroused by a real person by the woman that they love and we need to hit outside the bedroom. Now I had no idea the beginning of my journey that actually is affected outside the bedroom didn't connect the dots. Dots very often because of the way that the brain responds to this highly artificial crazy stimulus. What it does is the brain produces this bright light chemical that basically does your pleasure receptors so that you stop responding to this crazy stimulus that basically numbs and that's why you need to escalate what you're using, but also this bright light chemical pushes down your baseline of happiness so and everything becomes a bit boring, a bit dull but lackluster in comparison. So this is why guys appearing critical and distant and moody and resentful because they actually need to get hits a bedrock to feel normal and that is total bondage so you bought a truck which is losing its potency, but you actually need to get it to feel normal. So if you husband if you think what has happened to my husband. You know he's he's not the man I married. He just seems like a completely different person. He is so he's just so angry or distant or critical, and I can't put my finger on it because you know if he needs like this, fine. You know, this could be the issue. Those are extremely helpful things really looks like the wives are loosening rules yes there are some practical things as well, and I didn't I didn't mention days. Things like unaccounted for periods of time where you see what's he doing staying up late and I would just say trust your instinct.

If there are periods of time each thing. I don't know where he is. I am just my spider senses going off. Trust your instincts, you know what we do. That is the Holy Spirit talking to you many times wives have have come forward and say things like, you know, I just had a dream this recurring dream that he was having an affair that he wasn't having a family was looking at pornography is like it just seeps into you that there is something else going on and just trust. Trust your instincts. Even if you're told you're imagining things in your paranoid and you'll nagging in your critical trust those instincts about the church you think the church has responded is responding to this tremendous mood in our country that all 7% of churches with a ministry attacking for addiction and I don't believe that the reason this only 7% of churches with a ministry is anything to do with the church's willingness to tackle this topic. The pastor's willingness to provide support simply because people are coming forward substantially with 8% of guys in the pews with cathartic women now dictate that overall, not just in the church and I'm slightly smaller than women. But now that these huge numbers of people addicted. They just know coming forward now not coming forward because yes, that shame, but that's also if you really hijacked by pornography addiction. This is condition going on called hyper from Tallassee which is the same thing the car crash. Basically, this is an impairment of the prefrontal cortex is auctioning you can't think straight. You're not making good decisions, even though the parts of you that is going. This is really my marriage. This is not the man I want to pay. This is getting in the way ministry. This is stopping me from being present with my kids. It stops the pain I need to do this you know it doesn't really matter.

You're not making good decisions that that's why Daniel coming forward in the reason the wind coming forward is because they simply don't know that they think oh well.

Unfortunately, we didn't get told a lot of times the church that if we are sexually available more with her husband that will help the temptation and if we could just provide this loving graceful supportive forgiving environment that will somehow help him help them feel better about himself and he would need to do it.

It's not true. Women need to be told they need to set injuries. He's in trouble he's drowning throwing a lifesaver to stand there and wait for him.

Depression is normally taken in the church, although very noble and worthwhile unit we have these conferences for guys where we have a designated attic to stand up and tells a story and then every so yes, I struggle to stop one off event assertive, weekly, daily accountability, rigorous honesty with guys, which is what I need to tackle this is the biggest issue facing the church as a judgment downsize the biggest crisis. This is what I believe holding back revival without you running in this stuff we need weekly basis not just one off when we have the one person he comes forward and tells the story we really do need to normalize this. Even if we do normalize it. We need to raise up the women we need to tell them that they play a pivotal important role.

They are the catalyst for getting back husband's into recovery.

My husband often says pretty much every guy who arrives in his office arrives with the footprint of his wife on his back because the wife is so desperate she's reached a crisis point. She's on the verge of a nervous breakdown or divorce and just I want to educate her and empower her to stand up early and say enough we can do an intervention because I love you and I love our marriage too much to let this be our story and to throw this away because I was not willing to stand up and confront you on what is enslaving you so here you should early confrontation is always better than waiting months or years. What choices and that I mean you can. It's inevitable.

Point is going to take you march down all you gonna stay in a really unhealthy, stagnant, dysfunctional, painful marriage. So you gonna confront the early confront lights or you can stay stagnant.

You can say stop, I just plead with you, and please educate yourself with why this is important that you do this really difficult step because it's hot, it's really hard to make waves in your marriage when everything's kind of looking at Kelly who wants to cause trouble and you don't need to.

Please educate yourself and will support because there is so much misinformation that you do need other women who are little bit further down the journey together yet. This is really hard but you really are doing the best thing for him for you, for your family were here for you and we got your back. Check should be doing the check should be should be our topic on every women's ministry schedule. Why is this is what would surely dealing with, you know, every time I speak. I have dozens of women coming up in tears going. I never knew that this wasn't normal.

I never knew this wasn't normal and it breaks my heart. I just want to shampoo the roof tops. This is not normal, and this is not how it needs to be so for posters listening and hearing the story picks up this book. Heard of you who it's going to impact the pressure I just helped him. He how much it hurts women because they did a study where they are lost past as if another pastor came to you and said he was struggling with pornography. Would you advise him to tell his wife and 58% of them said no. I wouldn't advise him to confess to his wife. He struck them with porn.

That is the wrong onset that is so the wrong onset. I mean II understand it because it's like what what she doesn't know doesn't hurt her but was not sure what she doesn't know isn't really hurting her and is making her second SSL GSU responsibility where it isn't warranted, so hopefully it's it's helping pastor's head that a wife is hurting she is affected, but also she has a crucial role to play in marriage to become one more pornography is done to denigrate hole in the boat and if he's unable to fix it because he's he's kind of his brain action at the moment he's hijacked by this addiction. She's can be the one who she can't fix it.

She can say hey with a hole in the boat.

We need some how can someone come and help us not to fix them, but to get into somebody you can learn about the pastor who views himself involve report so hard that is so hard and they have extra lack of difficulty because there are multiple standards in the church where you know we will need to save you apart from a pasta you know who has to be perfect. And he knows this delay. One in 10 senior pastors are struggling and wanting five youth pastors are struggling. I'm currently what where my stance yes, so 36% of senior pastors say it sometimes hurts the relationships so that's just this just information.

I feel my current smoking in the 50s. This just doesn't information about what it does to relationships. What is doing to your brain and how you actually get out of that 720 is time to get to know this stuff we cannot realize the ramifications of letting a whole generation fill that brains stuff, but at the moment it stands our student to educate each other but I'm going off-topic you? What is best to do in the process is exactly the same but he does have to be careful because there that will be a large meeting on large, but there will be a proportion of his congregation who don't get sick and think you can't possibly be in ministry. You know because you have committed ultimate sin, which is actually the sin that everybody is struggling with, which will that makes no sense. It's just kind of what happened so that you have to be careful. But they do with who they tell they do need support and I would say a pastor who tackles this comes out the other side and has transformation. Wow, his church will be on fire. His church will be in credible. Because of his bravery and his courage to actually tackle this issue. The vast majority of his congregation struggling with his own authenticity. Search the place you want. Once a person is willing to begin the road on recovery. Typically, how long does it take to walk through the recovery process before you go to the place where you are not involved in this is a good question. Now the Alisha says that it's a 3 to 5 year process. But before I called my grandpa 3 to 5 years. I would say that within six months 6 to 9 months. You are saying big progress you are seeing big change. There is something definitely changed in the relationship we were ready to try for baby after nine months you and there's no way I would've done if I was not hundred percent convinced that he was on the right road and we begin to be able to get through this because those early days. It's very meanwhile it's a powerful time. It's a really powerful time because you're doing the big pieces that you doing a full disclosure during a period of celibacy really revealing who you are to each other and other people, so there is tremendous momentum and progress in those early days that will is a 3 to 5 year process because there are less stuff and it takes a long time for wife to fully trust to fully be able to be able to feel safe because she's been traumatized. She might have our own issues to deal with some whites do some wives don't some wives, you know, it's tricky working through the trauma. Some whites like myself. I had a lot of chitinous issues.

I then had to acknowledge and face and work on, which was wow. I mean what what to me.

My husband sex addiction she help me face my stuff was very grateful. At the time but now in hindsight right pretty good about finding a good treatment program.

Another great question. I would say please go to somebody who is experienced and qualified unit.

Well-meaning counselors or pastors or anything may not have the experience and knowledge and skills to be able to deal with this diary difficult addiction. It is extremely cunning and bustling.

They call it because a porn addict has the equivalent of an open bar in his head all the time so you really do need someone who knows what that doing in order to hold you accountable and equip you with the tools know what you're looking for in a program is some is a level of rigorous honesty do they have to be completely honest pasta present going forward. Do they have to confess that wife because there are programs out there where groups collude with secrets and all you need to tell your wife you just need to tell us in the great I do not agree with the fact that you need to tell the wife because she knows something's up. She sensing it and then she starting her own intuition doesn't give her the opportunity to stop in and there's consequences by looking at this with you for couple weeks, disrespectful, giving her the information so she can make those choices which will help healing and also your own healing because if you consequences.

So rigorous honesty and do they have questions. Do you get people sidebar because the group is only as healthy as its leaders and if you got a group of people struggling so drowning and slipping all the time and not really getting sober.

I join another group. All you need to borrow somebody borrow a leader from another great. Surprisingly intensive professional certifications that RC sent certified sexual addiction therapist if you go to the International Institute of trauma and addiction professionals website. I tap that you can search for local certified sexual addiction therapist and I would say that be a good starting point. It's kind of difficult to get one who is also Christian, but they are happy they are your own experience and then you're putting this in the book thinker listeners can tell, this book is a wealth of information, what you hope this book is going to do for the wives. I hope that chapter by chapter lies and misconceptions that have held them back slowly dismantled and just melts away so that they feel empowered to pick up a sword and go forth into this battle, which is so worth fighting, but I just want to remind your listeners that fighting on the road. They are simply being obedient to God and he is the one who will go with you and actually fight your battle for you to some important roles reversed versus being the most delightful discussion. This is been an informative discussion because this is not an easy topic, but we don't have a lot of conversations like this just I want to thank you for being with us today. I will thank you for writing this book and I know that is going to help those who serve. Thank you for being with. Thank you so much for having me. The other thing we've heard is there is hope that our hope for you this conversation is that you have gained some tools fight for love. That's the title of our featured resources by lovely.com Rosie McKinney is the author find out more about the book of her ministry. Five love languages next week. The difference in the child's life Royal rich will talk about big thank you to our action team Steve with Janice Todd building relationship with Dr. Gary Chapman's production of the radio in association with the publisher.

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